In article <200602212154.02483.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> writes: Is it anyone's experience that they ever do anything against a seller? Short of offering something that is outright illegal, it seems that ebay cares about sellers and don't give much of a damn about buyers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

William Donzelli wrote: Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. I had a friend sell something online for $80, then take the money out. 2 weeks later the buyer claimed that "his computer was taken over by hackers" and denied ever buying the item (which was virtual, ie. no physical product to ship or track). paypal tore the $80 out of his account, which was at 0, which then became -$80 and then immediately -$115 because of an overdraft fee. He had to eat it -- he was out the item *and* the money. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/

Actually, my opinion is that eBay is heavily biased toward the seller, and could care less about buyers. Which actually makes sense, given their revenue model. PayPal has a different revenue model, and a different set of biases. They also have to deal with restrictions imposed by credit card transactions. As a result, PayPal is much more biased toward the buyer. Vince

In article <43FCE97A.10303 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> writes: Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they could tell I don't know). There was no intermediate negotiation with the seller? I guess since the product is virtual there was no way to track delivery of the item? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

At 01:01 AM 2/23/06 +0000, you wrote: I hate to say it but they were right and you were wrong. You should have made sure of the payment details BEFORE you bid. I look at the payment method/details, hidden and/or excessive charges and any other unreasonable terms on EVERY auction BEFORE I bid on them. I frequently don't bid on items because of unreasonable terms, excesssive handling charges and the like. I suspect sellers require verified accounts because credit cards are EASY to come by. There's seldom a day that goes by that I don't get an offer for a credit card and many of them don't require any application. Credit card numbers are also easily hijacked. They recently arrested several people that worked at a major hotel here in the Orlando area. They had copied the CC numbers from something like 6000 customers! Joe

Just because someone is a novice user or and unaware of sniping doesn't make them an idiot. Plenty of normal and educated people who aren't technical like us understand "auction" to be "you bid this, than I bid that plus a little more, and we go back and forth until someone stops bidding." Your statement is just another example of why we nerds are often considered rude and socially clueless -- saying things like "you don't know how to do it, so you must be an idiot." Jim, I know you and I know you are not an idiot (plus I'm not a fan of name-calling), but that * statement * was pretty idiotic. :)

it on other auctions. .... I used that term to keep this nearer to a family readable format. Errr, okay. That's quite a big asterisk after "idiots", but okay. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:11 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay I know what I am talking about when I speak of idiots here. I am talking about ones who have > 50 or more auctions, and have done it on other auctions. If you want to buy something, put in a reasonably large bid and take it. when someone enters a large number $10 bids on an auction that eventually closes at 150 or so, they are either trying to run up your bill or are in cahouts with the seller. I excuse 0 feedback people and so forth, and have actually had very little problem with them, and never in this way. When an item that should go for $40 or so sets around with your maximum bid of say $200, and after a couple of days someone comes in and runs it to $150, the only one who can possibly be happy is the vendor. I'm not because the person ran up my bill, and the person is not because I got the item. So I stand on my calling those sorts idiots. I used that term to keep this nearer to a family readable format. Jim On 2/22/06, Computer Collector Newsletter <news at computercollector.com> wrote: The sniping is not the problem, It's my solution. I hate that I can't put a bid in on something when I find it and find the above happened Plenty of normal and educated people who aren't technical like us understand the bids that were put in were over a short period and were small increments that were never answered by another bidder, only my reserve. that made me very unhappy. Your statement is just another example of why we nerds are often considered not my point at all, sorry if you took it to be so. Jim, I know you and I know you are not an idiot (plus I'm not a fan of many words to make my point, and apologize for my lack of being able to express what I meant the first time and with less verbage. jim

David Kane wrote: If the amount you wish to pay is the maximum you bid after the last bid, why did you not simply put that amount in? deciding your limit is higher 5 times across the auction due to doing research is fine with me. In another reply, I stressed that this was an experienced bidder, and the incrementing was over a small (15 min) period. If you think putting in bids to spend my money (assuming I have the high bid) and not take it is useful, please elaborate. As I said it results in more money for the seller (happy) me getting it and having to pay more than I consider necessary, and you don't win the bid. I bid in two ways. I either put in a minimum for something just in case no one finds it, or I put in a very large amount, sufficient to get the item, and due to the annoyance we are discussing, I do it with as few seconds left as possible in the Ebay sale.

All this whining about how other people bid on ebay makes me laugh. This idea that someone who bids against you must be part of a conspiracy because they didn't win the item from you is just sour grapes talking because you didn't get it "cheap". Like it or not ebay has a tendency to eliminate market inefficiencies by matching supply and demand. In "the old days", the supply was variable and often the seller had no idea how much things were actually worth to buyers because there was hardly any chance of them matching their meager supply with the geographically dispersed demand. Now a local supply can reach a global demand, with the end result being that some items are bid up higher than they would be if you were buying it form a dufus who didn't know how badly you wanted it. On the other hand, more supply reaches the market these days because even for things where the seller has no clue what it is, they say to themselves "hey, I'll throw it on ebay, maybe someone will want it and I won't have to haul it to the dump". So instead of being consigned to the scrap heap or the dump, that heavy ASR-33 ends up on ebay and someone buys it and pays freight shipping for it. Since "everyone" wants an ASR-33 for their old computer, it will command a pretty price on e-bay. Likewise for something like an ADM-3/ADM-3A, an Altair, or whatever. More obscure items can still be had for cheap, like the Megatek CAD terminal I bought from Patrick for $0.99 :-) even though the freight shipping is going to cost me about $250-275, or the PDP-11/03 + 2 RL01s + VT-100 + LA-120 + 25 disk packs that I got for $250 for local pickup in Reno. I've engaged in all sorts of ebay bidding practices, based on my whim, feeling, intuition and sometimes strategy. Never did I bid more than I was willing to pay, never have I retracted a bid, occasionally an item was not exactly as described and I withheld feedback until working it out with the seller. On those couple of occasions, the seller has worked with me in a reasonable fashion to resolve the situation to my satisfaction. If you don't like the fact that other people on ebay can bid against you and "raise the price", then don't bid more than your initial bid or better yet don't bid at all if its just going to make your blood boil and give you a coronary. Yes, there are idiots in the world and some of them bid on ebay. Whoop-dee-fuckin'-doo. Get over it, its just the way the world is. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

I've mentioned before that I think that snipe bids are the only fair bids. They turn the open auction into a blind one and eliminate "auction fever". Maybe not so good for the seller, particularly if he's looking to put in "shill" bids, but great for the buyers and completely legit. If you don't have sniping software, you can use one of several services. Cheers, Chuck

In article <200603020934440335.18020C9F at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: I'm leary of giving my username/password to some service out on the web. I have computers that are connected to the net 24/7 and I'd rather run a local program than pay a monthly fee to some service, particularly since the fees are, to me, unreasonable. They remind me of magazines that cost more to subscribe to on the web than it costs for the print edition. Any suggestions? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

In article <200603021038440124.183CA3A7 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: Oh man... a sniping service that wants "a piece of the action"?! No thanks! Yeah, but all of them seem to be "pay me $x per month for the rest of your ebay lifetime" which I consider to be a ripoff. That's just my opinion, of course. Who else's would it be?(*) (*) <http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/opinion1.gif> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

On 3/2/2006 at 3:57 PM James Rice wrote: Make that 1% of WINNING bids--nothing for losing bids. And I believe there's a cap on that. Early subscribers also don't get charged for bids under $25. Cheers, Chuck

Richard wrote: The cost is 1 cent per dollar of your winning bid. So if you sniped for something that you got for $50, you own them half a buck. It's definitely worth the cost, and it's never let me down. If you don't win the item, you don't pay. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/

In article <BAY0-SMTP071DACD92D9F01FF79C1AFB2F50 at phx.gbl> <00a101c63e2f$b0a312a0$6700a8c0 at vrs>, "vrs" <vrs at msn.com> writes: Are there any open source solutions, by any chance? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

On Thu, 2 Mar 2006, Richard wrote: There is bidwatcher (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bidwatcher/), which is sorely in need of updating because of Ebay's constant changes. When Ebay played nice with it, it worked quite well. I rarely used it for sniping, but instead keeping an eye on my auctions. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

In this case, I think the 'idiot' moniker is thoroughly justified. It doesn't require a rocket scientist (or a nerd ;) to realize that people who bid in that manner often pay more than they intended [because they catch auction fever], and that you need to bid what you really, really will pay and you'll be bound to get something at the right price. It is, for lack of a better term, idiocy to think otherwise. A little bit of thought would have sufficed on their part. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail. -- Gore Vidal ---------------

Nor do real auctions have precautions. In fact, if the auctioneer is a scum, he can shill himself, pulling bids out of the air. At least Ebay can not do that (we think!). Ebay has at least some sort of papertrail for the bidding. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org

An ethical auctioneer will NOT allow a bidder to bid against hinmself. Most will simply say something like "you are already the high bid". The problem has existed since the beginning of time. One can not rightly blame Ebay for it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org

On the flip side, and going back to what Mr. Newsletter says, it does not take a rocket scientist to do things like cook an egg, do simple tax returns, appreciate some fine art, or even date a girl/boy - but computer nerds tend to crash and burn on any and all of these tasks. We are idiots, just in a different light. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org

Nazi. That's a Hitlerian approach. (There, I invoked Godwin. ;) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Architecture is the art of how to waste space. -- Philip Johnson -----------

I don't much care for Paypal, but I care even less for bank transfers (I can't do a Westurn Union transfer, the one time I tried, the WU office needed either a passport or driving license as ID, I have neither). I very rarely bifd on an E-bay auction if the seller won't take Paypal. I did once (and that was to Germany) -- the item was sufficiently rate (an HPIB interface for the 9830) amd had a very low B-I-N that I thought it was worth the trouble. It was -- but only just. What is it with German sellers? It appears that very few of them take Paypal. -tony

At 02:44 PM 2/23/06 -0800, you wrote: Same here. That's one reason why I refuse to take wire transfers. A lot of Europeans don't understand that. What??? If it's payable in US dollars and from a US bank then they shouldn't be charging any fee. (But I sometimes have to argue with the droid behind the counter in my bank to convince them). What bank is that? Joe

Tony Duell wrote: I think within the Euro zone IBAN (inter-bank) transfers are popular. They work from Europe-to-UK and back too. It seems that one of the Euro regs requires that any Euro-zone bank charge the same fixed amount for all IBAN transfers to/from an account with another (or the same) Euro-zone bank. So within the Euro-zone all IBAN transfers are (it seems) free. The UK is not within the Euro zone so I have to tell potential purchasers that, while I'm happy to accept an IBAN transfer there will be an additional fee of ?10 or so. So I presume that German sellers are used to free transfers and may not realise that it is going to cost you an arm and most of a leg to pay them via IBAN. Cash in the post usually works :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org

Likewise, buyers that want to use Western Union, typically from overseas, are also to be avoided. They may be honest, but somehow something WILL go wrong. In my early days as a seller, four times out of four were complete disasters. Now, when a buyer wires money, I simply refuse it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org

I have had very good results with reporting fraudulent sellers on ebay. And those sales disappear. I checked the Altair and it was gone by the time I looked. However I checked all three sellers and found that one had 9 more suspicious sales attached to it that I reported. All one day sales from out of the country, for a US seller... It was obvious that the ID had been hijacked, a new technique I am concerned about. Reported and deleted. Thanks for the tip. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA

Richard wrote: There are some very polished phishes making the rounds lately. *I* got sucked into one last month, and I'm a careful, paranoid bastard. I was tired and the email [purporting to be a question from another eBay user] was very well-done. I was pretty lucky in realizing immediately I'd been had and got all my passwords changed before there was damage. I hope. Doc

On 2/22/2006 at 4:46 PM Jim Leonard wrote: The trickier links exploit the more oddball features of browser addresses. Some older versions of IE, for example will swallow things like http://www.ebay.com at 1113982819/ (which actually references google). Sufficiently obscure to fool the casual user. Cheers, Chuck

Elm shows HTML as plain text so that all secrets are revealed. :) I just delete HTML only mail. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- High explosives are applicable where truth and logic fail. -----------------

That's exactly what I do. Well, if the html mail comes from somebody I think I recognise, I try to make sense of it (and send a nastygram back!), but I do that by hand, so I spot any odd-looking links. Ditto for mime-encoded mail (or even uuencoded mail). If I am not expecting it, I delete it. I certainly don't execute it! I'm going to get caught one day, but it's a lot harder to hide stuff in mail that's read on a text-only machine that doesn't automatically interpret html (or anything else for that matter) -tony

One phishing email had what looked like a link in the email and I hovered over it and it put http://www.ebay.com or the link in the status bar. I wanted to right click and bring up the properties of the link to copy it for further inspection as I susspected a phishing attack. Then I got the image properties. I viewed the page source and I realised the email was an image, and the clear dick running the attack had put an image map at the click point of the URL link looking part of the image. The image map ref was a http://x.x.x.x/blah type link to the no doubt phishing site, and the www.ebay.com URL was a ref for the whole image. IE only showed the whole image ref when hovered over, but would have run the image map ref when clicked. The site would then only have needed to somehow cover its real identity in the address bar when loaded and I would have been completely fooled. Very slick. I got lucky David

9000 VAX wrote: Yeah. Guess who posted it? ;) Doc

Geoffrey Thomas wrote: Yeah - I love advertising my own stupidity. :) Seriously, like Jim said, I use Thunderbird, and I *should* have caught the signs. It was late, I was tired, I had just upgraded my system and hadn't finished configuring T-bird to my normal "no HTML" settings. I got careless. Here's a screenshot of the email with HTML display turned on: http://www.docsbox.net/ebay_phish.jpg (~700KB, 700x1024 pixels) What made this extremely slick is that I ended up in *my own* "My eBay" page. Apparently the phish site grabs the login and password, then redirects you to and *through* the real eBay login with that login/password pair. And here's the text with HTML turned off. You can see that without the HTML masking the links, they're very obviously Not Right: Subject: Question from ebay member Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:49:04 +0100 From: aw-confirm at ebay.com <gxjnchvk at ciaoweb.it> Reply-To: aw-confirm at ebay.com <gxjnchvk at ciaoweb.it> Organization: for 2 or To: Casey <doc at mdrconsult.com> Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more <http://ssiiggnniinn.100free.com/ws/eBayISAPIdllSignInfavoritenav=2sid2=ruproduct=pp=co_partnerId=2ru=i1=ruparams=pageType=pa2=bshowgif=pa1=pUserId=errmsg=UsingSSL-runame-iteid=1/signin.htm>. *Question about Item -- Respond Now* eBay eBay sent this message on behalf of an eBay member via My Messages. Responses sent using email will go to the eBay member directly and will include your email address. Click the *Respond Now* button below to send your response via My Messages (your email address will not be included). Question from seller Item: (6436472319 <http://ssiiggnniinn.100free.com/ws/eBayISAPIdllSignInfavoritenav=2sid2=ruproduct=pp=co_partnerId=2ru=i1=ruparams=pageType=pa2=bshowgif=pa1=pUserId=errmsg=UsingSSL-runame-iteid=1/signin.htm>) This message was sent while the listing was *active*. barnsley1105 is a *potential buyer*. 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