2 Jun
2008
2 Jun
'08
6:21 p.m.
Hi all - I'm new to the list, been lurking for a while. By way of
introduction, back in the 80s I was a bonified software developer (wrote
a mag tape locking device for an early version of UNIX back when there
wasn't such a thing, did work in telecom test equipment and speech
recognition for years) but these days I'm in the old/rare book business,
technical books and all. I like old hardware, though don't have the
storage space for much. When I was in high school I took apart a Friden
computyper in my parents basement just to see what was in it. Still
have the "core memory" board around here somewhere. I've tried to
salvage manuals for old computers, component manufacturer technical
books, and an IMSAI or two over the years. Still have 20 boxes of old
components (everything from transistors, caps, resistors, etc to tubes)
in the garage I've accumulated over the years when I'm buying old books
from hobbyists - buried deep enough I don't even
remember what's in them.
Anyway, a friend asked me to try and sell a DEC Robin for him (he tells
me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only
available to DEC employees), and my question is this:
Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up? I've
seen various discussions about old capacitors dying, etc but I'm not
sure if this machine is old enough to worry about. My plan was to try
and power it up (my consignor also gave me some software with it, not
sure if it's related or not yet), and see if it still ran ok, take some
photos for the group (if anyone wants to see it) and my own records, and
then try to sell it. It appears to be in good shape, in the original
boxes, "monitor" in one box w/keyboard (looks to be a VT180), and a disc
drive unit in the other. My consignor said it ran the last time he had
it out many years ago. I've always enjoyed and preferred photographs of
old machines with their startup screen displayed rather than a dark
screen. Seems like they have more life with a live screen.
Any pointers appreciated (on or off list) - what to do or check in what
order would be great. Its been a long time since I blew up directional
capacitors in lab...so long I don't even remember what they're called.
Thanks in advance!<grin>
--
Sincerely,
John Kuenzig, Bookseller
Kuenzig Books
PO Box 452, Topsfield, MA 01983
978-887-4053 9am-7pm Eastern Standard Time
866-512-3053 tollfree 9am-7pm EST
orders at kuenzigbooks.com (orders or inquiries)
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Buying 18th-21st century books, manuscripts, ephemera,
scientific instruments, artifacts, and related material
2 Jun
2 Jun
9:13 p.m.
Anyway, a friend asked me to try and sell a DEC Robin
for him (he tells
me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only
available to DEC employees), and my question is this:
Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up? I've
I tend to err very much on the side of caution in this (and have had,
shall we say, 'differences of opinion' with other list members about this
in the past). I never just plug in an unknown machine to 'see what happens'.
seen various discussions about old capacitors dying,
etc but I'm not
The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if
there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could
make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about
every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right.
Now, of course, this circuit could fail at any time, and most good power
supplies have what's called a 'crowbar circuit' to protect against this.
But I still feel that wehn you come to a machine that's not been used for
some time, it's safest to disconenct the PSU from the rest of the
machine, connect the former to a dummy load (a set of suitably-rated
light bulbs) and test the pwoer supply separately. In some cases I've
even made up test boxes/harnesses to test commonly-used (for me) PSUs
quickly and easily.
The problem (for you) is that doing this, on an unknown machine, takes
some experience. You have to know how to disconnect the PSU from the
logic (but leave the mains input connected), you have to work out
suitable dummy loads and connect them to the right wires/pins on the PSU.
Somebody elase here can probably talk you through waht to do, but it's
still a bit of work.
-tony
3 Jun
3 Jun
4:20 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I install 6VDC Transorbs on older TTL logic boards to protect the very
expensive circuitry from a bad supply. The one I use is the 1N5908 -
has a great surge reaction time, and if there is just too much current
the little bugger will short out and take down the 5V supply...perhaps
an inline fuse would be a good idea in case of runaway Vcc!
John :-#)#
PS. I recommend checking capacitors with an ohm-meter/ESR combination to
check for shorted parts.
Anyway, a
friend asked me to try and sell a DEC Robin for him (he tells
me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only
available to DEC employees), and my question is this:
Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up? I've
I tend to err very much on the side of caution in this (and have had,
shall we say, 'differences of opinion' with other list members about this
in the past). I never just plug in an unknown machine to 'see what happens'.
seen various discussions about old capacitors
dying, etc but I'm not
The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if
there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could
make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about
every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right.
Now, of course, this circuit could fail at any time,
and most good power
supplies have what's called a 'crowbar circuit' to protect against this.
But I still feel that wehn you come to a machine that's not been used for
some time, it's safest to disconenct the PSU from the rest of the
machine, connect the former to a dummy load (a set of suitably-rated
light bulbs) and test the pwoer supply separately. In some cases I've
even made up test boxes/harnesses to test commonly-used (for me) PSUs
quickly and easily.
The problem (for you) is that doing this, on an unknown machine, takes
some experience. You have to know how to disconnect the PSU from the
logic (but leave the mains input connected), you have to work out
suitable dummy loads and connect them to the right wires/pins on the PSU.
Somebody elase here can probably talk you through waht to do, but it's
still a bit of work.
-tony
--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
4:42 p.m.
In article <m1K3L5f-000IygC at p850ug1>,
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes:
The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main
worry IMHO is that if
there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could
make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about
every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right.
I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be interested in hearing
estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it
happen to them?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
2 Jun
2 Jun
11:39 p.m.
The main worry
is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if
there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could
make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about
every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right.
I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be interested in hearing
estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it
happen to them? 
3 Jun
3 Jun
6:01 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I was
foolish enough
to get it out a couple of mnths later and attempt to use it to power
my homebrew board. Alas something had failed in the PSU (I forget
what,
it might just have been a dry joint...) the +5V
output was at about
9V.
I can understand worrying about something that's not been used for
a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for
just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything?
The only thing I remember going phut round here is a Rainbow
a few years ago - and that failed while trying to format a disk
(so it had been running happily for a morning or so while
I was playing with it).
(Actually I had a mains lead fail just a few weeks ago,
but that wasn't hooked up to anything classic :-)).
When I get around to trying out the 380Z I'll most certainly
not plug it in and hope (have you seen the size of the cap in
that beast?) but I'm not going to worry too much about the
Ultra 5 that sits on my desk and is powered up only every
few months ...
Antonio
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date:
02/06/2008 19:02
6:48 p.m.
Antonio Carlini wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
I suspect most peoples' collections fall into two categories - the stuff that
gets used much more frequently than every few months, and the stuff that
hardly ever gets powered up at all. The former's less likely to need checking,
whilst if a system gets powered up very infrequently it's not much bother to
give it a proper checking first.
I was
foolish enough
to get it out a couple of mnths later and attempt to use it to power
my homebrew board. Alas something had failed in the PSU (I forget
what,
it might just have been a dry joint...) the +5V
output was at about
9V.
I can understand worrying about something that's not been used for
a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for
just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything? The only thing I remember going phut round here is a
Rainbow
a few years ago - and that failed while trying to format a disk
(so it had been running happily for a morning or so while
I was playing with it).
I've had all sorts go bang. The last system I worked on had a PSU fault where
the +12V rail would no longer supply rated current - at startup the supply
would invariably go into a loop where it'd detect a fault and shut down, only
to try coming back up again moments later. I never did 'scope the +5V rail,
but it wouldn't surprise me if there was all sorts of potentially-damaging
noise on it under those cycling conditions.
When I get around to trying out the 380Z I'll most
certainly
not plug it in and hope (have you seen the size of the cap in
that beast?)
I've seen two types in 380Z's - some have much smaller caps, but like you say
some of their PSUs used ones that were huge.
I still need to debug my system properly sometime - it blows fuses when the
little RGB analogue board is plugged in (I used to use it with composite
output all the time, so I never quite got the necessary tuits together to fix it)
cheers
Jules
10:42 p.m.
I can understand worrying about something that's
not been used for
a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for
just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything?
Well, if I am using a machine every day, I don't check it every time
(there's no point, the PSU could fail in the time between checking it and
reconnectin it to the logic :-)). But if I get a machine out that I've
not used recently, then, yes, I do check it.
It doesn't take me long. I've probably done it before, so I know what to
unplug, where to connect the dummy load (if needed) and the meter, and so
on. In come cases, I've built up test units, in which case it takes even
less time.
And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is easily a lot less than
the time it would take me to sort out the damage caused by a
malfunctioning PSU.
-tony
4 Jun
4 Jun
6:01 p.m.
I've had the issue twice. The first time was a Heathkit stereo where
a bad capacitor killed the transformer and the second one was an Acer
286 that had a mouse problem, biological kind.
bs
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote:
I can
understand worrying about something that's not been used for
a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for
just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything?
Well, if I am using a machine every day, I don't check it every time
(there's no point, the PSU could fail in the time between checking it and
reconnectin it to the logic :-)). But if I get a machine out that I've
not used recently, then, yes, I do check it.
It doesn't take me long. I've probably done it before, so I know what to
unplug, where to connect the dummy load (if needed) and the meter, and so
on. In come cases, I've built up test units, in which case it takes even
less time.
And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is easily a lot less than
the time it would take me to sort out the damage caused by a
malfunctioning PSU.
-tony
5 Jun
5 Jun
6:57 p.m.
New subject: invading varmints was Re: powering up older machines - is it safe?
I arguably my first vintage computer invaded by
apparently teeny tiny critters once! I had the box, a
TI PC, stuck in my parked van for a winter anyhow. I
fired it up one day, and nothing happened, and the fan
would only budge intermittently. I opened it up and
*something* doo doo doo doo, tore up all sort of paper
and insulation to make a really suave pad! Thing is
the opening were pretty small. I have trouble thinking
it was done by insects, but I cannot imagine a rodent
fitting through any of those openings. It was skeery!
--- schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote:
I've had the issue twice. The first time was a
Heathkit stereo where
a bad capacitor killed the transformer and the
second one was an Acer
286 that had a mouse problem, biological kind.
bs
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote:
> I can understand worrying about something
that's
not been used for
> a few years, but if you check everything
that's
not been used for
> just a few months, when do you have time to
actually _do_ anything?
Well, if I am using a machine every day, I don't
check it every time
(there's no point, the PSU could fail in the
time
between checking it and
reconnectin it to the logic :-)). But if I get a
machine out that I've
not used recently, then, yes, I do check it.
It doesn't take me long. I've probably done it
before, so I know what to
unplug, where to connect the dummy load (if
needed) and the meter, and so
on. In come cases, I've built up test units,
in
which case it takes even
less time.
And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is
easily a lot less than
the time it would take me to sort out the damage
caused by a
malfunctioning PSU.
-tony
8 Jun
8 Jun
6:47 p.m.
New subject: invading varmints was Re: powering up older machines - is it safe?
On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:57, Chris M wrote:
I arguably my first vintage computer invaded by
apparently teeny tiny critters once! I had the box, a
TI PC, stuck in my parked van for a winter anyhow. I
fired it up one day, and nothing happened, and the fan
would only budge intermittently. I opened it up and
*something* doo doo doo doo, tore up all sort of paper
and insulation to make a really suave pad! Thing is
the opening were pretty small. I have trouble thinking
it was done by insects, but I cannot imagine a rodent
fitting through any of those openings. It was skeery!
I used to walk past this business that dealt with such critters, and this sign
in a window detailed some surprising facts, like how a rat could fit through
a hole only a half inch in diameter. I'd suppose that if we were talking
about a mouse that'd be even smaller...
--- schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote:
> I've had the issue twice. The first time was a Heathkit stereo where
> a bad capacitor killed the transformer and the second one was an Acer
> 286 that had a mouse problem, biological kind. bs
>
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote:
> > > I can understand worrying about something that's not been used for
> > > a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for
> > > just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything?
>
> > Well, if I am using a machine every day, I don't check it every time
> > (there's no point, the PSU could fail in the time between checking it
> > and reconnectin it to the logic :-)). But if I get a machine out that
> > I've not used recently, then, yes, I do check it. It doesn't take me
> > long. I've probably done it before, so I know what to unplug, where to
> > connect the dummy load (if needed) and the meter, and so on. In come
> > cases, I've built up test units, in which case it takes even less time.
> >
> > And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is easily a lot less than
> > the time it would take me to sort out the damage caused by a
> > malfunctioning PSU.
> >
> > -tony
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
4 Jun
4 Jun
6:16 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is
easily a lot less than
the time it would take me to sort out the damage caused by a
malfunctioning PSU.
To be honest, I enjoy the checking prior to use just as much as I do actually
using the system (I'm the same way with any vintage machinery - there's just
as much fun to be had in problem determination / fixing as there is in actual use)
10:46 p.m.
To be honest, I enjoy the checking prior to use just
as much as I do actually
using the system (I'm the same way with any vintage machinery - there's just
as much fun to be had in problem determination / fixing as there is in
actual use)
I'm inclined to agree with you. Quite often, once I've got a machine
working (it'll boot the OS, run standard applications, all peripherals
work, etc) i tend to lose interest in it and move on to some other
project (which might well be an add-on board or peripheral for said
machine, of course).
Tracking down a nastly logic fault is something I enjoy.
I don't really enjoy programming that much, and if I do want to write a
program, I suspect I've got better tools on this (ancient) PC than on
most of my classics...
-tony
3 Jun
3 Jun
9:25 p.m.
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
From: legalize at xmission.com
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:42:05 -0600
Subject: Re: powering up older machines - is it safe?
In article ,
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes:
Hi
I'd admit it is rare but it does happen. The only case I've seen
was on a pin ball machine. The way the case of the 5V regulator
had a bad connection through the mounting. This caused the output
voltage to go to the full 12V of the input. It wiped out a rare sound
chip and a couple TTLs. Not a good thing.
This can surely happen to most any regulation circuit. Some shorts
and some opens can cause the regulation feedback path to go open.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage.
http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh…
The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The
main worry IMHO is that if
there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could
make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about
every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right.
I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be interested in hearing
estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it
happen to them? 
5 Jun
5 Jun
4:26 p.m.
I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be
interested in hearing
estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it
happen to them?
I've seen it twice. Once on a rarely used machine on power-up, Once
on a machine in continuous operation. I doubt its more likely to
happen in one case (continuous use vs rarely used) than the other, it
just doesn't go unnoticed in the continuous use case. Then again I've
seen the mains side of a transformer short to +5 on (non-computer)
machine, also in continuous use.
For me, it always depends upon how easily I can replace the machine.
On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip the switch. On a
TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke. On a
Sol-20, pull out the Variac and monitor voltage and current. On a
Compucolor II consider adding current and voltage limiting hardware.
On an original Apple I, microscopic inspection and every very low
voltage test you can think, take the old home-brew power supply and
put it in a display case, buy a brand new current and voltage limited
bench supply, and then recheck all the voltages and limit settings
before connecting. The closer it gets to one-of-a-kind, the more
careful you probably want to be.
4 Jun
4 Jun
10:59 p.m.
Eric J Korpela wrote:
Actually, my Model 4 emitted clouds of smoke one time when I was using
it. The machine carried on working fine, and I recognised the
(unpleasant) smell of said smoke as being a tantalum capacitor going off,
probably a supply decoupler. I actually finished what I was doing, then
turned it off, pulled the case and replaced the defective capacitor (I
was right..) on one of the disk drives.
On the other hand, when smoke came out of one mf my RK)5sm and I could
see flames throug the front door, I turned off the power at once. The fan
motor insulation had broken down...
-tony
On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip
the switch. On a
TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke.
So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-)
5 Jun
5 Jun
5:13 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
Eric J Korpela wrote:
Well, I suppose eventually the flames might endanger surrounding machines...
On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip
the switch. On a
TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke.
So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-)
5:17 p.m.
On Thursday 05 June 2008 17:13, Eric J Korpela wrote:
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Eric Smith <eric at
brouhaha.com> wrote:
Is that like, a prior owner picked that as a place to keep their stash
("Nobody'll ever bother powering this up again...) and then forgot about it?
:-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
Eric J Korpela wrote:
Well, I suppose eventually the flames might endanger surrounding
machines... On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip
the switch. On a
TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke.
So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) 
6:47 p.m.
From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net>
On Thursday 05 June 2008 17:13, Eric J Korpela wrote:
If that's the smoke he smelled, he wouldn't care about the other
machines. He'd be off looking for munchies... "Now where were
those chips?"
BLS
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Eric Smith
<eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
Is that like, a prior owner picked that as a place to keep their stash
("Nobody'll ever bother powering this up again...) and then forgot about it?
Eric J Korpela wrote:
Well, I suppose eventually the flames might endanger surrounding
machines... On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip
the switch. On a
TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke.
So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) 
11:44 p.m.
New subject: Obsolete Technology Band
Folks on this list will enjoy this post:
http://www.hackaday.com/2008/06/05/obsolete-technology-band/
All they're missing the AM radio next to the S-100 bus...
[Note the first video doesn't resemble music until about the 1:35 mark]
Cheers,
jp
www.puzzlemation.com
5:30 p.m.
Eric Smith wrote:
Eric J Korpela wrote:
On a Pentium you have a can of petrol to hand to help it along ...
Antonio
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date:
04/06/2008 16:40
On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip
the switch. On a
TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke.
So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) 
3 Jun
3 Jun
6:24 p.m.
On Monday 02 June 2008 18:13, Tony Duell wrote:
> Anyway, a friend asked me to try and sell a DEC
Robin for him (he tells
> me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only
> available to DEC employees), and my question is this:
>
> Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up?
--snip--
The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main
worry IMHO is that if
there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could
make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about
every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right.
--snip--
I'm in strong agreement with Tony on this. With most vintage equipment I
restore, I do the following:
1. Test all power supply capacitors with an ESR meter and/or a VOM.
2. Where possible, remove all modules from a system before applying power.
3. Check to insure that there are no shorts between any power leads (I've
found springs, screws, etc. under motherboards and backplanes - which would
have created major power shorts.)
4. When the above check out correctly, apply power and test all voltages for
the proper level. Test for (appropriate) low AC ripple in all supplies.
5. Power off. Insert the minimum number of modules to test the system
(assuming it's a mini or micro) - such as CPU, Memory and Console I/O. Power
on and test.
6. Once #5 is successfully completed, insert modules by function and test
until all modules/functions have been tested. (Obviously powering off before
module insertion and off after testing).
Some pieces of equipment don't lend themselves to all of the above, but lots
of gear does.
Patience is the keyword. Never be too anxious to apply power. (Unless, of
course, you don't care if something gets zapped in the process ;-)
In answer to the question - have I ever seen a power supply go "crazy"? YES!
I've seen a linear 5V supply put out near 15V - which, if modules were
present, could have had nasty consequences. I've see more that one switching
power supply "create" very "off" voltages as well.
Speaking of patience - those of us working on the PDP-1 restoration at the
Computer History Museum didn't power up the system for several months while
we tested and reformed all power supply capacitors, tested all power supplies
for proper voltage, ripple, load characteristics, etc. :-)
Regards,
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
Mountain View, CA
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
7:34 p.m.
capacitors will often give you a warning before
blowing. In my experience anyway. The least of your
worries, IMHO, is a capacitor going after you turn the
unit on.
5838
days inactive
5844
days old
24 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
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arcarlini＠iee.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
blstuart＠bellsouth.net -
chrism3667＠yahoo.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
jfk＠kuenzigbooks.com -
jrr＠flippers.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
korpela＠ssl.berkeley.edu -
lbickley＠bickleywest.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
pdp11＠saccade.com -
rtellason＠verizon.net -
schwepes＠moog.netaxs.com