29 Apr
2006
29 Apr
'06
7:12 p.m.
Answer: Darned near everyone.
I'm trying to locate a game I used to play on my cousin's computer back in
the early 90s. The game is most likely older than this, but I can't say
how much. (The only other games on this machine was Test Drive (#1) and
some horrendous ASCII golf game)
The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location, rather
than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters to build out
the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys to guide your
character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters and treasure and
the like.
I -think- the dungeon view only took up a portion of the screen, perhaps
the right-half only, and your view was fairly limited to a "if you were in
the dungeon this would be the extent of your eye line" sort of thing.
Pretty nifty.
Does this sound famaliar to anyone? A name would be great, a link would be
disco, and source code would be fascinating.
Thanks all for your hive-mind;
JP
30 Apr
30 Apr
6:47 a.m.
JP Hindin wrote:
The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the
location,
rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters
to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys
to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters
and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a
portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was
fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the
extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty.
The only ones that speing to mind are: Rogue, Hack, Larn and Moria.
But I don't recall anything that had a "first person view" so I'm
suggesting them only because I assume I've misinterpreted what you
wrote. I'm pretty sure that Moria at least had a view limited to
whatever you had seen so far on a given level (and drinking the
wrong potion etc. could "blind" you temporarily).
Antonio
--
Antonio carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
1:25 p.m.
On Sunday 30 April 2006 6:47 am, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote:
JP Hindin wrote:
> The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location,
> rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters
> to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys
> to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters
> and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a
> portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was
> fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the
> extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty.
Wizardry comes to mind, I recall the player roster was on the bottom with a
view on the top right.
I played Bards Tale at around the same time, but it used graphics.
The only ones that speing to mind are: Rogue, Hack,
Larn and Moria.
--
Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca
1:27 p.m.
The game was a
top-down dungeon style game (As in the location,
rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters
to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys
to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters
and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a
portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was
fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the
extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty.
The only ones that speing to mind are: Rogue, Hack, Larn and Moria. 
1:33 p.m.
there was another game that I need to check called Nemesis. I know it
was around the same time as Rogue (I have both of them). I just need
to find them and take a look.
best regards, Steve Thatcher
At 10:27 AM 4/30/2006, you wrote:
I just thought of another one -- ZZT -- but this had colour and I think it
used extended characters, at least for some of the games in the series.
--
--------------------------------- personal:
http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ---
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only a lot heavier and
bigger. -----
The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the
location,
rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters
to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys
to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters
and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a
portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was
fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the
extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty.
The only ones that speing to mind are: Rogue, Hack, Larn and Moria. 
3:49 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my industrial
computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece of
equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
John A.
4:03 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
On Sunday 30 April 2006 03:49 pm, John Allain wrote:
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width)
of all my industrial
computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece
of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember (very
vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago,
but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
4:20 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Just dawned on
me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my
industrial computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to
the latest piece of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember
(very vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog,
ages ago, but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that
used it. 
1 May
1 May
1:24 a.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Dennis Boone wrote:
Bell did indeed invent the rack, as far as I know from my telco
friends. And some telecom gear used or uses the wider format.
In fact, some computer industry racks have both sizes of mount in
them; look at the Dell racks, for example.
Telcos tend to view racks as flat devices, and gear going into them
is fairly shallow. If it's big, it's big up-and-down
I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and design a lot of rack
mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably
want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They
really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk
at buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack.
More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it comes to racks. All
equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is
1.75". So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called 'U'?
AK6DN
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width)
of all my
industrial computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to
the latest piece of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember
(very vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog,
ages ago, but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that
used it. 
10:04 a.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Don wrote.....
I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and
design a lot of rack
mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably
want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They
really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk at
buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack.
Datacom != Telecom
The folks you are seeing that balk at the 24" racks must be more datacom
than telecom. Most telecom stuff is 24" rack mount form factor. As I said,
there is SOME crossover, because some computer companies put their gear in
24" racks, someone pointed out IBM for example, and nowdays telecom centers
generally have a lot of datacom gear too. But the general common standard is
19" for computer stuff and 24" for telco stuff. And most telcom stuff comes
with it's own racks, so working at a supplier you're less likely to see it.
More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it
comes to racks. All
equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is
1.75".
So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called 'U'?
Where
on earth did you come up with a standard rack being 8"? Definitely
not. As to U'units, other than it is a TIA/EIA standard, no clue.
Jay
3:13 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Don North
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 12:24 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 19" Rack History
I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and
design a lot of rack
mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably
want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They
really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk
at buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack.
More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it comes to racks. All
equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is
1.75". So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called
'U'?
AK6DN
Even more confusion was added by DEC when they created the 5.25" tall
"System unit" standard - i.e. any 5.25" high box like a BA23 etc.
So, if you enjoy confusing people, or just want to correct somebody for no
reason, start a debate that a 2U device is 10.5" tall :)
2 May
2 May
12:37 a.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
On 5/2/06, Julian Wolfe <fireflyst at earthlink.net> wrote:
Even more confusion was added by DEC when they created
the 5.25" tall
"System unit" standard - i.e. any 5.25" high box like a BA23 etc.
That really confused me when I started fiddling with stuff outside the
DEC world. Prior
to 1995, 100% of my rack experience was with DEC equipment (stuff stretching
from 1964 up to about 1990). It's kinda handy only
dealing with
multiples of 5.25".
Makes it easy to configure systems.
-ethan
1 May
1 May
8:21 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
On Monday 01 May 2006 01:24, you wrote:
Dennis Boone wrote:
Bell did indeed invent the rack, as far as I know from my telco
friends. And some telecom gear used or uses the wider format.
In fact, some computer industry racks have both sizes of mount in
them; look at the Dell racks, for example.
Telcos tend to view racks as flat devices, and gear going into them
is fairly shallow. If it's big, it's big up-and-down
I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and design a lot of rack
mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably
want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They
really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk
at buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack.
More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it comes to racks. All
equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is
1.75". So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called
'U'?
AK6DN
The U is short for unit - the smallest size panel that will fit the
staggered hole pattern.
joe lang
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width)
of all my
industrial computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to
the latest piece of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack?
AT&T?
Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember
(very vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog,
ages ago, but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that
used it. 
30 Apr
30 Apr
4:24 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
On Sunday 30 April 2006 16:03, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
On Sunday 30 April 2006 03:49 pm, John Allain wrote:
Lots of big IBM hardware (and some other manufacturers - I think Sun's E10k
systems) use the 24" rack, like my S/390 gear, and these IBM SP racks I'm
working on...
I can't think of anything older than S/390s that uses the 24" rack though.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape
(width) of all my industrial
computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece
of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember (very
vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago,
but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it.
4:41 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
It was written....
Good question! I'm a little curious about that
too. I also remember
(very
vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago,
but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it.
24" racks
are just as common as 19" racks, depending on your industry. 19"
racks are the defacto standard in the computer industry. 24" racks are still
today the defacto standard in the telco industry. There are some few
occasions where 24" racks are used in the computer industry and 19" in the
telco industry... but not really common.
Walk in to any SWB, Pacbell, etc. phone center and you'll see mostly 24"
racks for telco gear/switches.
Jay West
6:47 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
19" racks are the defacto standard in the
computer industry.
Beginning to sound like DEC set the 19" computing standard,
perhaps just out of convenience, just picking one available width,
and sticking with it, starting as early as the late 1950's
John A.
1 May
1 May
6:33 a.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
"John Allain" <allain at panix.com> wrote:
I'm not so sure you can attribute it to DEC. Even in the 40's and
50's, for example, most rack-mountable radio and electronics
test equipment fit in 19" racks, and this pretty drove
the instrumentation and process control into the 19" form factor,
and that's the industry that DEC was in even before they started
making computers. So yeah, DEC was one of the early instrumentation/
process control manufacturers to make computers, but I wouldn't
say they "picked" that standard.
Tim.
19" racks
are the defacto standard in the computer industry.
Beginning to sound like DEC set the 19" computing standard,
perhaps just out of convenience, just picking one available width,
and sticking with it, starting as early as the late 1950's
10:05 a.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Someone wrote...
I'm not so sure you can attribute it to DEC. Even
in the 40's and
50's, for example, most rack-mountable radio and electronics
test equipment fit in 19" racks, and this pretty drove...
Can't attribute this one to DEC. 19" racks were a standard size long before
they (DEC) were on the scene.
Jay
11:48 a.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
IIRC, 19" racks go back before WWII. I'll have to check one or two of my
old electronics books, but my guess is that the size originiated in the
1920's.
Cheers,
Chuck
12:22 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
In article <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9 at 10.0.0.252>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
IIRC, 19" racks go back before WWII. I'll
have to check one or two of my
old electronics books, but my guess is that the size originiated in the
1920's.
It would be cool if we could find out why everyone standardized on
19 inches.
Is that the dimension of the inside of the rack mount area, or the
width of the rack itself including posts?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
1:12 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
On Monday 01 May 2006 12:22, Richard wrote:
In article <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9 at
10.0.0.252>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
Neither.
It's generally the width of the frontplate of something that you mount
in the rack, including holes for screws, etc. Go measure the rack your
11/03 is in. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
IIRC, 19" racks go back before WWII.
I'll have to check one or two
of my old electronics books, but my guess is that the size
originiated in the 1920's.
It would be cool if we could find out why everyone standardized on
19 inches.
Is that the dimension of the inside of the rack mount area, or the
width of the rack itself including posts?
4:44 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Just checked a 1939 Radio handbook--construction there is for 17" chassis
fitting on a "standard" relay rack panel, so I'm assuming that 19" was
a
"standard" even back then. Looking at some of the old transmitter power
supply designs reminds one how much weight one of those panels could
support. There are ads for both Bud and Par Metal, but no specifics.
When I worked in steel-mill process control before "computers", none of the
installations used relay rack construction. Usually a large 1/4" steel
panel was simply welded into place with L- or U-channel backing it. Holes
were then cut and drilled to mount everything. Of course, this was mostly
electro-pneumatic or electro-hydraulic control, so relay rack panels
probably made no sense.
Cheers,
Chuck
1:51 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Here's an interesting link on the subject. The short of it the origin of 19"
racks were as Telco switching "relay racks".
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack
Cheers,
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
Mountain View, CA
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
1:59 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
At 12:51 PM 5/1/2006, you wrote:
Here's an interesting link on the subject. The
short of it the origin of 19"
racks were as Telco switching "relay racks".
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack
That's a copy of the Wikipedia article.
- John
2:28 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Post-VCF, I'll have time to get the old Computer Collector Newsletter back
on track, so perhaps I'll start with an article about this. Should be fun
to see what the phone companies have to say. I suspect that the IEEE
History Center might have some insight too.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust at threedee.com]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 1:59 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: 19" Rack History
At 12:51 PM 5/1/2006, you wrote:
Here's an interesting link on the subject. The
short of it the origin of
19"
racks were as Telco switching "relay racks".
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack
That's a copy of the Wikipedia article.
- John
2:55 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
In article <200605011051.10441.lbickley at bickleywest.com>,
Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> writes:
Here's an interesting link on the subject. The
short of it the origin of 19"
racks were as Telco switching "relay racks".
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack
This is really the wikipedia article on 19" racks with someone else's
HTML wrapped around it. I guess wikipedia must be succeeding if
people are feeling they need to steal its content and present it as
their own!
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
3:06 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
And thusly were the wise words spake by Richard
In article <200605011051.10441.lbickley at bickleywest.com>,
Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> writes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_free_dictionary
has a little blurb about The Free Dictionary mirroring Wikipedia.
Cheers,
Bryan
Here's an interesting link on the subject.
The short of it the origin of 19"
racks were as Telco switching "relay racks".
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack
This is really the wikipedia article on 19" racks with someone else's
HTML wrapped around it. I guess wikipedia must be succeeding if
people are feeling they need to steal its content and present it as
their own!
-- 
6:47 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
On May 1, 2006, at 11:51 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
Here's an interesting link on the subject. The
short of it the
origin of 19"
racks were as Telco switching "relay racks".
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack
And the rest of the story (so to speak) as to _why_ 19":
I asked a fellow "middle aged" phart who (also) worked with genuine
Bell System auld pharts to verify my memory of where this came from --
it was all a matter of convenience (and cost).
The engineering department (Bell Labs) planned equipment layouts
based on
a 24" grid system. To build the relay racks, channel iron 2.5" deep
(measured
on the outside) was used as it was very common and relatively cheap.
24 - (2.5*2) = 19 inches for the shelf space.
The above was designed for the first relay-based telephone switches.
Mike
30 Apr
30 Apr
5:14 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
On Sunday 30 April 2006 03:49 pm, John Allain wrote:
IBM has used 23" and 27" for a long time too.
Peace... Sridhar
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape
(width) of all my industrial
computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece
of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember (very
vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago,
but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it.
11:28 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
On 4/30/06, Roy J. Tellason <rtellason at blazenet.net> wrote:
On Sunday 30 April 2006 03:49 pm, John Allain wrote:
CompuServe used 24" racks for their "32-bit hosts", also dubbed
"silver bullets" because they were long and narrow (two fit
side-by-side on a shelf) and their enclosures were made of
chrome-plated steel.
A few years ago, as they were turning off these servers as fast as
they could, it was possible for employees to pick up discarded 24"
racks from the data centers in OH (Columbus/Upper Arlington and/or
Dublin)... I don't have one, but I know several people who do.
-ethan
...who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember (very
vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago,
but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it.
6:57 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
At 02:49 PM 4/30/2006, John Allain wrote:
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of
all my industrial
computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece of
equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Everyone else voted for telco, but I'll place a bet on the radio industry.
And/or the radio industry of the military. It's a standard, isn't it?
Why, just Friday I bought a surplus 19" rack, and the other rack next
to it that I passed by was old enough to have the black wrinkle paint
as well as a US Navy property tag.
- John
7:47 p.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
those of us that also deal with old communications gear know the radio
racks are 19 inches... even back in olden times...
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: 19" Rack History
At 02:49 PM 4/30/2006, John Allain wrote:
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape
(width) of all my industrial
computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece
of
equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Everyone else voted for telco, but I'll place a bet on the radio industry.
And/or the radio industry of the military. It's a standard, isn't it?
Why, just Friday I bought a surplus 19" rack, and the other rack next
to it that I passed by was old enough to have the black wrinkle paint
as well as a US Navy property tag.
- John
1 May
1 May
4:01 a.m.
New subject: 19" Rack History
Hi,
John Foust said:
At 02:49 PM 4/30/2006, John Allain wrote:
The Collins 51J-1 radio receiver of 1949 was 19-inch rack mounting and
I'm sure it wasn't the first. I think the HRO radio of 1934 was available
in rack mounting, but what width I don't know.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape
(width) of all my industrial
computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece of
equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T?
Everyone else voted for telco, but I'll place a bet on the radio industry.
And/or the radio industry of the military. It's a standard, isn't it?
Why, just Friday I bought a surplus 19" rack, and the other rack next
to it that I passed by was old enough to have the black wrinkle paint
as well as a US Navy property tag.
6656
days inactive
6659
days old
32 comments
25 participants
participants (25)
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a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
ak6dn＠mindspring.com -
allain＠panix.com -
bpope＠wordstock.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
drb＠msu.edu -
esharpe＠uswest.net -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
evan＠snarc.net -
fireflyst＠earthlink.net -
jclang＠notms.net -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jplist＠kiwigeek.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
kenziem＠sympatico.ca -
lbickley＠bickleywest.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mcesari＠comcast.net -
melamy＠earthlink.net -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rtellason＠blazenet.net -
shoppa_classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com