27 Aug
2015
27 Aug
'15
1:46 a.m.
Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
Kevin Tikker
Sent from my iPhone
11:59 a.m.
How many exist on Earth at this point?
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
--
Bill
vintagecomputer.net
Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
Kevin Tikker
Sent from my iPhone
Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
new. Good luck Digging for one.
12:07 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
degnan
Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
How many exist on Earth at this point?
Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps....
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
--
Bill
vintagecomputer.net
Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
Kevin Tikker
Sent from my iPhone
Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
new. Good luck Digging for one.
12:28 p.m.
The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that
they know about:
http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
--
Ben Sinclair
ben at bensinclair.com
From what I've been reading, there may be only one
operational 1620
right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
degnan
Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
How many exist on Earth at this point?
Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps....
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
--
Bill
vintagecomputer.net
Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
Kevin Tikker
Sent from my iPhone
Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
new. Good luck Digging for one.
7:18 p.m.
Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Ben Sinclair <ben at
bensinclair.com> wrote:
The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that
they know about:
http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620
right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM
<dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
--
Ben Sinclair
ben at bensinclair.com -----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
degnan
Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
How many exist on Earth at this point?
Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps....
>
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
>>>
>>> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
>>>
>>> Kevin Tikker
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
>> new. Good luck Digging for one.
>
>
>
> --
> Bill
> vintagecomputer.net 
7:41 p.m.
On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out
there
There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI
when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in
somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if
it is still around, or not, I have no idea.
(Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
town, as well).
Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though.
JRJ
8:34 p.m.
A possible lead?
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2015, at 7:41 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at
charter.net> wrote:
On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there
There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI
when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in
somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if
it is still around, or not, I have no idea.
(Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
town, as well).
Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though.
JRJ
9:02 p.m.
> There were two IBM 1620's in the College of
Engineering in Madison, WI
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
A possible lead?
There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black
Panthers started out there.
If you make a list of every one that there was, you're still not likely
to track one down.
But, have fun trying.
9:28 p.m.
On 08/27/2015 09:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
...and let's not forget all of the 1620 panels that were used in the
film "The Forbin Project"...
--Chuck
> There were
two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in
> Madison, WI
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
A possible lead?
There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the
Black Panthers started out there.
10:09 p.m.
Great series of books the film was based on
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
On 08/27/2015 09:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the
Black Panthers started out there.
...and let's not forget all of the 1620 panels that were used in the film "The
Forbin Project"...
--Chuck
There were two IBM 1620's in the College of
Engineering in
Madison, WI
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
A possible lead?
10:07 p.m.
I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue.
Thank you
Kevin
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black Panthers
started out there.
If you make a list of every one that there was, you're still not likely to track one
down.
But, have fun trying.
There were two IBM 1620's in the College of
Engineering in Madison, WI
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
A possible lead?
28 Aug
28 Aug
11:05 a.m.
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you
may have a clue.
Thank you
If you actually want to follow-up on such tenuous leads, . . .
Wil Price would know what happened to the 1620 and 1401. So would Ben
Micallef and Jack Olson, but they're dead.
I guess that it may have been in the move up onto the hill in 1972? that
Merritt switched to DEC. Reliability of the PDP suffered from a bad disk
drive, so it was replaced in 1983 with a few RJE terminals and a lot of
5150s.
In 1983, the PDP with drive that never worked reliably, was sold to
Richmond schools (to pay for 5150s). PG&E didn't fully understand the
difference between Delta and Y three-phase. But, in exchange for going
along with lie that it "was struck by lightning during installation" (no
other lightning strikes within miles for 100 years), PG&E magnanimously
(with tax break) bought Richmond schools a new one.
Some of the 026 punches and EAM equipment was in the back hallways of
Merritt until 1980s. I did not have storage space to save anything, and
they tried to fire the guy who pulled the other PDP from the dumpster.
I don't know what Laney was using. Berkeley City College didn't exist at
that time; it was established later and was known as Vista College until
2006, when it finally got its own building (on Center Street, instead of
Milvia).
We suggested a delay in the name change from Vista to BCC with both names
in use:
1) like a restaurant or retail establishment, a name change simultaneous
with a move might save on stationery (which as expected, they didn't
replace right away anyway) , but in terms of public, it is more
like closing down and a new one opening. THAT was borne out by
enrollments.
2) release of Windoze Vista. Our most heavily populated classes were job
training for the digital sweatshop, and we could have advertised, "Vista
is the best place to learn Vista!"
I taught programming in all campuses of Peralta (Merritt, Laney, College
Of Alameda, Vista/BCC) from 1981 - 2013. My pension is handled by the
state (secure unless Mew Whitman gets elected), but my health benefits are
run by Peralta, so kinda risky.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:58 a.m.
I attended Vista at both locations the main building and the basement of the former Ross
store. The new building was a mess, half finished, poorly designed and with the video
studio poorly built. Thanks for the info on the 1620. Petals is such a vast organization
it's entirely possible some 1620 lurks in some dark, dank unfinished space.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue.
Thank you
If you actually want to follow-up on such tenuous leads, . . .
Wil Price would know what happened to the 1620 and 1401. So would Ben Micallef and Jack
Olson, but they're dead.
I guess that it may have been in the move up onto the hill in 1972? that Merritt switched
to DEC. Reliability of the PDP suffered from a bad disk drive, so it was replaced in 1983
with a few RJE terminals and a lot of 5150s.
In 1983, the PDP with drive that never worked reliably, was sold to Richmond schools (to
pay for 5150s). PG&E didn't fully understand the difference between Delta and Y
three-phase. But, in exchange for going along with lie that it "was struck by
lightning during installation" (no other lightning strikes within miles for 100
years), PG&E magnanimously (with tax break) bought Richmond schools a new one.
Some of the 026 punches and EAM equipment was in the back hallways of Merritt until
1980s. I did not have storage space to save anything, and they tried to fire the guy who
pulled the other PDP from the dumpster.
I don't know what Laney was using. Berkeley City College didn't exist at that
time; it was established later and was known as Vista College until 2006, when it finally
got its own building (on Center Street, instead of Milvia).
We suggested a delay in the name change from Vista to BCC with both names in use:
1) like a restaurant or retail establishment, a name change simultaneous with a move
might save on stationery (which as expected, they didn't replace right away anyway) ,
but in terms of public, it is more like closing down and a new one opening. THAT was
borne out by enrollments.
2) release of Windoze Vista. Our most heavily populated classes were job training for
the digital sweatshop, and we could have advertised, "Vista is the best place to
learn Vista!"
I taught programming in all campuses of Peralta (Merritt, Laney, College Of Alameda,
Vista/BCC) from 1981 - 2013. My pension is handled by the state (secure unless Mew
Whitman gets elected), but my health benefits are run by Peralta, so kinda risky.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12:34 p.m.
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
I attended Vista at both locations the main building
and the basement of
the former Ross store. The new building was a mess, half finished,
poorly designed and with the video studio poorly built.
It is now a mess, half finished (unwired handicap door buttons, etc.), and
poorly designed. The signs for ALS, and amplified and TTY phones were
put up, but there is not a single public telephone in the building.
One of the entrances to the library was mis-prepped as an exit and can not
be locked, and "it is impossible to get the plans changed to allow fixing
it".
Thanks for the info on the 1620. Petals is such a vast
organization it's
entirely possible some 1620 lurks in some dark, dank unfinished space.
Not within Peralta. Corporate culture of destruction and erasing of the
past. We retrieved some stuff from the dark, dank tunnels
at Merritt (and they tried to fire one guy for dumpster diving)
Laney is too obsessed with throwing things away and changing, just for the
sake of changing. Guarded dumpsters, cleared often. Couldn't save some
"broken" (needed toner cartridge) almost current LaserJets. Did save (for
the CIS department) a projector that needed its signal cord repaired -
almost got fired for soldering a DE15, in a well-ventilated non-flammable
workroom; if I hadn't been there that day, it would have been scrapped.
College Of Alameda was built without adequate dark storage.
Last of the 5170s is long gone.
Nothing bigger nor more interesting than generic PCs (primarily HPaq) were
ever moved into the BCC spaces. No word on the DisplayWriters that
used to be in the Milvia building. The other space was temporary lease,
now gone; long before it was a Ross and later Walgreen's, it was a
JCPenney's.
District Office has occasionally had a few interesting things, but not any
more. Used to be a 4381? there.
There ARE some interesting things in dark, dank storage spaces in UC.
CCSF used to have some interesting stuff, such as Honeywell "mainframe".
But, has recently had VERY thorough clearing out due to the Barbara Beno
(accreditation Commission) pressure.
Heard that some folk at DeAnza/Foothill squirreled away some goodies.
Don't know the current state of stuff at Contra Costa Colleges nor SF
State.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
1:50 a.m.
Many 1620's were leased and IBM recovered them at the end of the lease.
There is a note somewhere I have seen about the one at Lancaster University
have a disk drive replaced and then returned to IBM within weeks...
.. on the other had I know the one at Newcastle Polytechnic hung around for
at least a year. I wonder what happened to the one at Constantine College
(later Teeside Polytechnic, and now Teesside University) which ran my first
Fortran Program...
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay
Jaeger
Sent: 28 August 2015 03:41
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
is
Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one
out there
There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI
when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in
somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if it still around, or not, I have no idea.
(Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
town, as well).
Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though.
JRJ
2:14 a.m.
New subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
(Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
town, as well).
Speaking of which:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Control-Data-160-Computer-System-Vintage-Co…
Maybe it's the one from that basement :)
Cheers,
Pierre
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de
noon
New subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
Which government agency?
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 AM, ben <bfranchuk at
jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote:
We
all KNOW the government people still have one running
for your tax $$$$. After all the bribes and shady dealings
it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug.
Ben.
2:17 p.m.
New subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On 8/28/2015 2:00 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
Which government agency?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 AM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote:
> We all KNOW the government people still have one running
> for your tax $$$$. After all the bribes and shady dealings
> it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug.
> Ben.
>
>
>
I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS.
3:57 p.m.
New subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at
the IRS.
Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next.
The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines.
So if you want a vintage computer, the last finds are about 15
years later from the introduction.
Ben.
6:49 p.m.
New subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next.
Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to
all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the
good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile.
29 Aug
29 Aug
8:53 a.m.
New subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On 08/28/2015 08:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben <bfranchuk at
jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
At least, that's just what they want us to think. The *really* good stuff
is between the two, in Area 51.5
Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51
next.
Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to
all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the
good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile. 
11:32 a.m.
New subject: Area 51 - was Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On 2015-08-28 9:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben <bfranchuk at
jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
I know you're just being witty, but in fact it still seems quite active:
http://ur1.ca/nloay
--Toby
Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51
next.
Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to
all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the
good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile.
30 Aug
30 Aug
10:58 a.m.
New subject: Area 51 - was Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
I wrote:
Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in
Area 51 any more; due to
all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the
good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
I know you're just being witty, but in fact it
still seems quite active:
http://ur1.ca/nloay
They have to keep doing something at least slightly interesting at
Area 51 to maintain the cover, so everyone doesn't go looking for the
real stuff at Area 52.
28 Aug
28 Aug
7:02 p.m.
New subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, ben wrote:
On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
The military used 1950's machines into the '80s. E.g. the IBM-built
AN/FSQ-7 computers for SAGE became operational starting in 1957, and some
stayed on the job until 1983.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
I expect that Ben's posting was a joke
directed at the IRS.
Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next.
The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines.
8:44 p.m.
New subject: Cold War Tech - Area 52
On 8/28/2015 8:02 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, ben wrote:
Good old Cold War Computing.
A real Area 51 link. - US UFO's
http://astronautix.com/craft/pyeacket.htm
I was looking for
Deepcold: Secrets of the Cold War in Space, 1959-1969
but alas the web site has vanished from the face of the Earth.
Ben.
On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
The military used 1950's machines into the '80s. E.g. the IBM-built
AN/FSQ-7 computers for SAGE became operational starting in 1957, and
some stayed on the job until 1983. I expect that Ben's posting was a joke
directed at the IRS.
Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next.
The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines. 
29 Aug
29 Aug
5:52 a.m.
New subject: Cold War Tech - Area 52
A real Area 51 link. - US UFO's
http://astronautix.com/craft/pyeacket.htm
I was looking for
Deepcold: Secrets of the Cold War in Space, 1959-1969
but alas the web site has vanished from the face of the Earth.
Ben.
Try
https://web.archive.org/web/20120616210332/http://www.deepcold.com/index.ht…
--
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db
7:31 a.m.
New subject: Cold War Tech - Area 52
On 8/29/2015 6:52 AM, Diane Bruce wrote:
I don't have time to look at the archive,
but did the animated movies get archived. The important stuff as
very little non text is archived from web pages.
Porn of 1995 is just as important historical thing as any when
regarding history of then net.
Ben.
A real Area 51 link. - US UFO's
http://astronautix.com/craft/pyeacket.htm
I was looking for
Deepcold: Secrets of the Cold War in Space, 1959-1969
but alas the web site has vanished from the face of the Earth.
Ben.
Try
https://web.archive.org/web/20120616210332/http://www.deepcold.com/index.ht…
8:43 a.m.
New subject: Cold War Tech - Area 52
If you're like this kind of stuff, I most emphatically suggest the book
Valkyrie: North American's Mach 3 Superbomber by Landis and Jenkins. In
addition to covering the XB-70 inside and out, it discusses contemporary
programs of same i.e. the XF-103, XF-108 and even the Pye Wacket there in
the original post (which was originally developed to be used with the
XB-70)... extensively illustrated and with copious detail, it's an
interesting look inside some of the far-out aerospace programs of the 1960s
... unfortunately out of print but a used copy is worth every dollar!
Best,
Sean
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 10:31 AM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 8/29/2015 6:52 AM, Diane Bruce wrote:
but did the animated movies get
archived. The important stuff as
very little non text is archived from web pages.
Porn of 1995 is just as important historical thing as any when
regarding history of then net.
Ben.
A real Area 51 link. - US UFO's
http://astronautix.com/craft/pyeacket.htm
I was looking for
Deepcold: Secrets of the Cold War in Space, 1959-1969
but alas the web site has vanished from the face of the Earth.
Ben.
Try
https://web.archive.org/web/20120616210332/http://www.deepcold.com/index.ht…
I don't have time to look at the archive,
28 Aug
28 Aug
8:10 a.m.
New subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
Cool. Wonder what it will go for.
JRJ
On 8/28/2015 4:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote:
(Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
town, as well).
Speaking of which:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Control-Data-160-Computer-System-Vintage-Co…
Maybe it's the one from that basement :)
Cheers,
Pierre
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de
28 Aug
28 Aug
9:34 a.m.
New subject: VMS drivers
Hello, guys,
While rummaging through recovered backups from my MicroVAX I
found a few items that might be of interest to the group.
I got an MDB mag tape interface (quite possibly the ONLY
Pertec Unformatted controller ever made for Q-bus) that
follows the MT-11 register format. There was no driver for
this. I got a homebrew MT-11 driver for Unibus machines
from somebody at work, and hacked it up to assemble for
VMS
4.7 and adjust to the quirks of the MDB board (which were
REALLY minor).
I also have a driver for my Jupiter 7 for the MicroVAX.
Thus used a DRV11-WA DMA interface with some wire-wrapped
glue logic to adapt to the Jupiter's 50-pin interface bus.
It is based on the stock DRV11-WA driver, with some
additional logic to handle the handshakes between Jupiter
and the DRV11. Additionally, I built a graphics library
based on the NASA min-Vicar image processing suite, which
was a hideous hack job that ran on the PDP-11. That used
pre-assigned, numbered files. I generalized it to use
normal VMS files of arbitrary size, but otherwise kept most
of the original functions. I used the VMS table driven
parser, tparse, to parse most of the commands.
I also knew a fair bit about Versatec printers back then, if
anybody ever wants to get one of those hideous machines running.
If anybody is interested in these drivers, etc. let me know.
Jon
10:19 a.m.
New subject: VMS drivers
I am very interested in these drivers!
I am new to the group please let me know the proper procedure/process.
Thanks so much,
Sue Skonetdki
VMS Software Inc.,
On Aug 28, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Jon Elson <elson at
pico-systems.com> wrote:
Hello, guys,
While rummaging through recovered backups from my MicroVAX I found a few items that might
be of interest to the group.
I got an MDB mag tape interface (quite possibly the ONLY Pertec Unformatted controller
ever made for Q-bus) that follows the MT-11 register format. There was no driver for
this. I got a homebrew MT-11 driver for Unibus machines from somebody at work, and hacked
it up to assemble for VMS 4.7 and adjust to the quirks of the MDB board (which were REALLY
minor).
I also have a driver for my Jupiter 7 for the MicroVAX. Thus used a DRV11-WA DMA
interface with some wire-wrapped glue logic to adapt to the Jupiter's 50-pin interface
bus. It is based on the stock DRV11-WA driver, with some additional logic to handle the
handshakes between Jupiter and the DRV11. Additionally, I built a graphics library based
on the NASA min-Vicar image processing suite, which was a hideous hack job that ran on the
PDP-11. That used pre-assigned, numbered files. I generalized it to use normal VMS files
of arbitrary size, but otherwise kept most of the original functions. I used the VMS
table driven parser, tparse, to parse most of the commands.
I also knew a fair bit about Versatec printers back then, if anybody ever wants to get
one of those hideous machines running.
If anybody is interested in these drivers, etc. let me know.
Jon
Sue Skonetski
VP of Customer Advocacy
Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886
Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations
27 Aug
27 Aug
10:08 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500
Ben Sinclair <ben at bensinclair.com> wrote:
The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three
other 1620's that
they know about:
http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620
right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.
The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that worked on the
1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of
solder on the core memory and so the wires of the core memory literally
"dissolved".
Modern memory was used to replace the original core memory and an interface to a PC was
created and used to emulate peripheral devices. It ran as a demo system for several years
when the CHM was in its public "Visible Storage" phase.
A second Team - of which I was a member - worked to enhance the 1620's peripheral
device interfaces and ultimately create new controllers for such devices as an IBM
plotter. We also were trying to come up with demos that would make the IBM 1620
interesting to the general public (and not just techies or folks who had an emotional
connection with the 1620).
At the same time, the CHM was also working to complete its IBM-1401 restoration (including
many pieces of Unit Record gear) - and IBM 1401, DEC PDP-1 and Babbage public demos
Many of us on the 1620 Team were also on other restoration Teams - and As time progressed,
it became clear that the IBM 1620, while a running computer, was not as demonstrable as
the other systems. That - and many of us simply ran out of time working on it. So our
running IBM 1620 ended up in our storage facility rather than as a public CHM demo
system.
It is entirely possible that at a future date it will again become a public demonstration
system..
Cheers,
Lyle
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM
<dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
--
73 AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
degnan
Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
How many exist on Earth at this point?
Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps....
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
>
> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
>
> Kevin Tikker
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
new. Good luck Digging for one.
--
Bill
vintagecomputer.net
10:30 p.m.
On 08/27/2015 10:08 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
Many of us on the 1620 Team were also on other
restoration Teams -
and As time progressed, it became clear that the IBM 1620, while a
running computer, was not as demonstrable as the other systems. That
- and many of us simply ran out of time working on it. So our running
IBM 1620 ended up in our storage facility rather than as a public CHM
demo system.
It is entirely possible that at a future date it will again become a
public demonstration system..
Well, other than the Model I (CADET) typewriter acting as if it were
going to fly apart at any time, the 1311 disk drive was fun to watch.
The 1622, not so much--if you've seen one card reader/punch, you've seen
them all. What I remember the most is that as the punch heated up, it'd
start throwing verify errors like crazy.
Life in the slow lane...
--Chuck
28 Aug
28 Aug
5:59 a.m.
On Aug 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
...
Well, other than the Model I (CADET) typewriter acting as if it were going to fly apart
at any time, the 1311 disk drive was fun to watch.
Especially if you didn't have the "direct seek" option. I had a one-card
program that would do for (i=0; i<100; i++) seek_cylinder(i). That doesn't step
track to track as you would expect; instead, it goes from track n to 0 to n+1, resulting
in progressively wilder and slower seeks as n increases.
paul
9:08 a.m.
On 08/28/2015 05:59 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
Especially if you didn't have the "direct
seek" option. I had a
one-card program that would do for (i=0; i<100; i++)
seek_cylinder(i). That doesn't step track to track as you would
expect; instead, it goes from track n to 0 to n+1, resulting in
progressively wilder and slower seeks as n increases.
Yup, the one I worked with did not have the "direct seek option". What
was interesting from a historical standpoint was the way in which the
1311 was used by Monitor II-D. IIRC, the first 25 cylinders were
dubbed "work cylinders" with no formal filesystem. The remainder was
used for more-or-less permanent storage of programs--not so much as a
data store.
The CADET I worked on did have the Indirect Addressing feature, which I
believe was required to run Monitor II-D. Hard today to think of an
addressing mode as an optional ($$$) feature. The Model II had an index
register.
I can still remember many of the 1620 numeric opcodes. Strange,
considering that I can't remember where I put my keys or what I had for
breakfast...
--Chuck
7:42 a.m.
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote:
The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There
were two teams that
worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running.
Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of solder on the core memory and
so the wires of the core memory literally "dissolved".
With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to
ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy
itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to
clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due to
the specific activator used in the flux?
9:01 a.m.
On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
With all the different solder alloys I work with
regularly, I have to
ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the
alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then
failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based
flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the flux?
That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived well
(got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same process would
be used for equipment that's pretty close to contemporary.
--Chuck
6:31 p.m.
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a datasheet
for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder they used did not
contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM used dissolved small
amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, creating a weak point where
the wires were soldered to the terminals.
Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement stubs
of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the terminals?
That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it would require
special equipment.
With all the different solder alloys I work with
regularly, I have to
ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy
itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to
clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due
to the specific activator used in the flux?
That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived well
(got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same process would
be used for equipment that's pretty close to contemporary.
9:36 p.m.
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT)
Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
"modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked
similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
"falling apart" and was not repairable.
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a
datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder
they used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM
used dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires,
creating a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals.
Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement
stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the
terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it
would require special equipment. With all the different solder alloys I work with
regularly, I have
to ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it
the alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and
then failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a
rosin-based flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the
flux?
That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived
well (got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same
process would be used for equipment that's pretty close to
contemporary.
10:32 p.m.
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT) Tothwolf
wrote:
So the core mats were more or less dangling? Still, I would think they
would be repairable, but it would be a major undertaking since there would
probably be 1000s of tiny stubs of wire to weld in (every single
connection, basically). All of those enamel wire terminations would then
also need to be soldered to the terminals with either a low-tin or copper
containing alloy of solder too.
I also can't help but wonder what other systems which use core memory
might suffer from this type of failure as they continue to age.
Any chance someone on the team took some photos of the core memory? I
didn't see any on CHM's IBM 1620 webpage.
http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
For those interested, here is a paper Google turned up which explains the
problem:
Lead Alloys for High Temperature Soldering of Magnet Wire
https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf
I think I've answered my own question today
while looking at a
datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder they
used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM used
dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, creating
a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals.
Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement
stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the
terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it
would require special equipment.
I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
"modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked
similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
"falling apart" and was not repairable.
29 Aug
29 Aug
1:32 p.m.
On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley
<lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this.
Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern memory, another
answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart, the cores could be recovered and
restrung. That requires patience and dexterity, but it should be doable. It also
requires a device to hold the cores correctly for threading; something like that could
easily be made in a a 3d printer.
paul
...
I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
"modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked
similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
"falling apart" and was not repairable.
5:57 p.m.
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote:
On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley
<lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would
be able to print a jig with the tolerances required. IBM had special
machines to position and thread them.
http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf
I can certainly understand why repair wasn't initially attempted, however
that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system,
welding new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or completely
rebuilding the core planes with all new wire might still well be a
worthwhile project at some point in the future. It might even be possible
to keep most of the cores in position and rethread just one portion (X, Y,
sense/inhibit) at a time.
Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is
unlikely that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large number of
wires have broken at the terminals.
I was not on the Team that did the memory
analysis and the ultimate
"modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked
similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
"falling apart" and was not repairable.
I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this.
Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern
memory, another answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart,
the cores could be recovered and restrung. That requires patience and
dexterity, but it should be doable. It also requires a device to hold
the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be
made in a a 3d printer.
30 Aug
30 Aug
1:49 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Tothwolf
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 1:57 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote:
Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would
be
On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley
<lbickley at bickleywest.com>
wrote:
> I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
> "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I
asked
similar
questions and was told that the core memory was literally
"falling apart" and was not repairable.
I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this.
Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern
memory, another answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart,
the cores could be recovered and restrung. That requires patience and
dexterity, but it should be doable. It also requires a device to hold
the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be
made in a a 3d printer. able to print a jig with the tolerances required.
Perhaps a consumer 3-D printer wouldn't, but there are higher precision
printers out there that will print to a high accuracy.
Also not that 3-D printing with filament is just a small part of a wide
range of techniques available. There are several processes:-
http://3dprintingindustry.com/3d-printing-basics-free-beginners-guide/proces
ses/
some of which are not available to the Amateur because of cost (especially
un-expired patents) or just too complex...
There are also subtractive manufacturing methods such as laser
cutting/etching and CNC milling which could be more suitable for building a
core jig....
.. Most of the FabLabs will have one of these available
http://www.rolanddg.com/product/3d/3d/mdx-20_15/application.html
and a laser cutter....
IBM had special machines to
position and thread them.
http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are
extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a
probably prohibitive cost...
.. I have marked for later reading...
I can certainly understand why repair wasn't
initially attempted, however
that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system,
welding
new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or
completely rebuilding the
core planes with all new wire might still well be a worthwhile project at
some
point in the future. It might even be possible to keep
most of the cores
in
position and rethread just one portion (X, Y,
sense/inhibit) at a time.
Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is
unlikely
that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large
number of wires have
broken at the terminals.
Dave Wade
G4UGM
5:20 a.m.
On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm
at gmail.com> wrote:
...
> IBM had special machines to
> position and thread them.
> http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf
Interesting. I remember learning about the processes DEC used. No fancy machines, just a
flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their correct position, and nimble-fingered
Oriental ladies to thread the wire through the core planes by hand. Seemed sensible to
me; that is the process I was thinking about for this case.
paul
6:28 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Koning
Sent: 30 August 2015 13:20
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
correct
On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dave G4UGM
<dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
wrote:
...
> IBM had special machines to
> position and thread them.
> http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf
Interesting. I remember learning about the processes DEC used. No fancy
machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to
thread the wire through
the
core planes by hand. Seemed sensible to me; that is
the process I was
thinking about for this case.
paul
Surely DEC used machine threaded cores later on. There is a 16k (I think)
DEC board in the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester that must be
machine woven as you can't see the individual cores without heavy
magnification...
10:18 a.m.
On Aug 30, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm
at gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps. But I never heard of core threading machines until today. Just because you
can't see the cores without magnifiers doesn't mean this couldn't be done by
hand. It's amazing what trained hands can do.
paul
...
Interesting. I remember learning about the processes DEC used. No fancy
machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their
correct
position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to
thread the wire through
the
core planes by hand. Seemed sensible to me; that
is the process I was
thinking about for this case.
paul
Surely DEC used machine threaded cores later on. There is a 16k (I think)
DEC board in the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester that must be
machine woven as you can't see the individual cores without heavy
magnification...
9:47 a.m.
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Tothwolf wrote:
Something else I forgot to mention, is that on page 8 in that pdf file,
they mention initially using 60/40 tin-lead alloy solder for the enamel
wire to the core plane terminals. On page 9, they describe switching to
20/80 tin-lead so the solder would dissolve less copper from the enamel
wire.
If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I think
either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a more
modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice for the
enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly reduce the
likelihood of any future wire breakage.
IBM had special machines to position and thread
them.
http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are
extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a
probably prohibitive cost...
.. I have marked for later reading...
10:55 a.m.
On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is
ever attempted, I
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly
a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best
choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would
greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.
Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?
The excuse of "that's too small to work on" seems a bit
peculiar-sounding, particularly from people who are used to working by
hand fine-pitch QFPs with 0.050" lead centers (and smaller).
In the range of core sizes, 1620 cores weren't particularly tiny,
compared to, say, CDC 7600 SCM core.
So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit
daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores
wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek.
--Chuck
11:15 a.m.
On Aug 30, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions.
I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional solder. The
wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so by the standards of, say, Litz
wire, and that is soldered routinely.
If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM
1620 is ever attempted, I
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly
a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best
choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would
greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.
Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? ...
So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit daunting from a
human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores wasn't even a day's output
for outfits like Fabritek.
Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the cores into a
holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you thread wire from edge to edge. The
article mentions a needle with the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the
copper wire is unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual threading
operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. For example, on a 4k core
plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. (A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane
with its peculiar 5 wire architecture.)
paul
11:34 a.m.
On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That
might be a bit
daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores
wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek.
Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the
cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you
thread wire from edge to edge. The article mentions a needle with
the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire
is unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual
threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size.
For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take.
(A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire
architecture.)
I've seen the archival photos. Still, the possibility of missing or
damaging a single core was always there. I wonder what the rejection
rate was.
I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it
only applied to larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly
understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive.
Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during the 70s that the
hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers
were going to night courses for that.
--Chuck
12:15 p.m.
On Aug 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
...
I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it only applied to
larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly understand why plated-wire or thin-film
technologies were attractive.
Perhaps CDC's ECS? 125k (funny number that) words per memory bank.
Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during
the 70s that the hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers
were going to night courses for that.
I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that describes how it
is done. I did do a PC board layout with red and blue tape on a light table, in 1977.
paul
1:04 p.m.
On 08/30/2015 12:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
Perhaps CDC's ECS? 125k (funny number that) words
per memory bank.
Possibly. We used a lot of it in SSD. 4MW installations were not
uncommon, shared among 2-4 mainframes. As I recall, core errors were
not treated the same way as CM--part of deadstart was "flawing" ECS and
creating a map of flawed areas, much as one might do with a disk.
It also had priority in CM access, so if you were doing a bunch of ECS
transfers, you could see the DSD display dim and flicker. 1LT (long
stranger tape driver) had conniptions with data underrun errors when ECS
transfers were going on.
I've never done that, though I have Carver
Mead's textbook that
describes how it is done. I did do a PC board layout with red and
blue tape on a light table, in 1977.
This was Silicon Valley, circa 1978 or so. A bunch of Intel people put
together a training course (not Intel-sponsored) for people who wanted
to learn IC design.
PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, tape, white-out
and India ink and, of course, an X-acto knife. The best people at this
seemed to be from the Far East. Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced
for production.
--Chuck
2 p.m.
On 08/30/2015 03:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film,
tape, white-out and India ink and, of course, an X-acto
knife. The best people at this seemed to be from the Far
East. Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced for
production.
Yup, back in the 70's I did a bunch of PCB design using
mylar and black crepe tape, and pre-made donuts and IC pads.
UGH!!! I still have a bunch of those sitting in folders. I
made my own reduction camera to bring the artwork down to
1:1 size.
Then, in 1976 or so, I got my first CAD system, and printed
everything out on plotters with India ink and Rapidograph
pens on frosted Mylar. If the pen didn't clog up or run dry
before the print was finished, it worked pretty well, and
there were Litho houses that mostly did ad copy that would
do the reduction for a couple $.
I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and
made some artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I
built a laser photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI
images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can
do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've never gone over about one
foot square. The trick is, it has to be VERY accurate to
line up with existing PC boards. I mostly use it to make
solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC
board master artwork.
Jon
3:09 p.m.
On 08/30/2015 02:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp
plotter and made some
artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a laser
photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive
film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've
never gone over about one foot square. The trick is, it has to be
VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards. I mostly use it to
make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC board
master artwork.
That's pretty impressive, Jon.
I do remember the headaches with registration of early multi-layer PCBs.
Lots of rejects.
--Chuck
31 Aug
31 Aug
6:47 p.m.
On 08/30/2015 05:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 08/30/2015 02:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
YIKES! Multilayer! I do have a system for registering
2-layer boards, back when I used to make those myself.
You need a piece of Plexiglas about the same thickness as
the PC board material. You need a scrap of PC board
material to use as a spacer between the front and rear
artwork films. You put this on a light table, and glue the
strip of PC board material to the edge of the film, place
the Plexiglas on the film and place the other film on top of
the Plexiglas. Glue the top film with rubber cement and use
a magnifier to adjust alignment until it is as close as you
can get it, then put a weight on the glued joint and leave
it for a couple hours. When the glue is dry, you can slip a
photoresist-covered board between the two films and expose
in a vacuum frame. The two sides will come out well-aligned.
Jon
I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp
plotter
and made some
artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a
laser
photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on
red-sensitive
film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can do up to 20 x 24"
films, but I've
never gone over about one foot square. The trick is, it
has to be
VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards. I
mostly use it to
make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it
for PC board
master artwork.
That's pretty impressive, Jon.
I do remember the headaches with registration of early
multi-layer PCBs. Lots of rejects.
5:51 a.m.
[...] then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that
cranks out
1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute.
I'd be very interested in anything you care to share about its design
and building....
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
8:41 a.m.
New subject: photoplotter
On 08/31/2015 07:51 AM, Mouse wrote:
Here's my web page on it:
http://pico-systems.com/photoplot.html
I built this in 1996, as soon as red laser diodes became
available. (I'd been trying to make it work with LEDs
before, but the optics got difficult.) I just converted it
over recently to run off a Beagle Bone computer.
Jon
[...] then in
1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out
1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute.
I'd be very
interested in anything you care to share about its design
and building....
8:04 p.m.
New subject: photoplotter
I have a "hot tub" scanner which could be adapted to plotting which is
IIRC 4 x 4' It would be free for the taking to an interested party in
LA CA area.
It has the mechanism to move a mirror which was used to scan with a very
nice scan camera, so has all the logistics of holding paper while you
move around under it.
It is an Ektagraphic, again IIRC which was made by Kodak. Was one of
those, "You can have the pile for $200 less if you take the scanner"
thanks
Jim
On 8/31/2015 8:41 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
On 08/31/2015 07:51 AM, Mouse wrote:
Here's my web page on it:
http://pico-systems.com/photoplot.html
I built this in 1996, as soon as red laser diodes became available.
(I'd been trying to make it work with LEDs before, but the optics got
difficult.) I just converted it over recently to run off a Beagle
Bone computer.
Jon
[...]
then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out
1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute.
I'd be very
interested in anything you care to share about its design
and building....
30 Aug
30 Aug
5:16 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
According to IBM's paper, extra cores were threaded initially and used to
replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras were crushed
after assembly to remove them.
So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread?
That might be a bit
daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores
wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek.
Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the
cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you
thread wire from edge to edge. The article mentions a needle with the
wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire is
unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual threading
operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. For example,
on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. (A bit more on
a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire architecture.)
I've seen the archival photos. Still, the possibility of missing or
damaging a single core was always there. I wonder what the rejection
rate was.
I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it
only applied to larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly
understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive.
Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during the 70s that the
hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers
were going to night courses for that.
6:13 p.m.
On 08/30/2015 05:16 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
According to IBM's paper, extra cores were
threaded initially and
used to replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras
were crushed after assembly to remove them.
I suspect there were also extra rows after shipment as well. I seem to
remember a magnet and a broomstick that got used to fish out remnants in
the 7090 (oil bath) core units.
--Chuck
5:32 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote:
See the other paper I mentioned earlier in the thread:
https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf
On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 0.002"
after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" reduction is
basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains the failures of
the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.
Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on.
On Aug 30,
2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions.
I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional
solder. The wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so
by the standards of, say, Litz wire, and that is soldered routinely. If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM
1620 is ever attempted, I
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a
more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice
for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly
reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.
Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?
5:43 p.m.
On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet
wire being reduced to
0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011"
reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains
the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.
Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on.
But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case
here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very
thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation
clear this up.
Ben.
6:01 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, ben wrote:
On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
My guess is that over time the thinned wires broke due to a combination of
vibration and thermal fatigue. Vibration while transporting the system to
CHM may well have been what ultimately caused them to break.
On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG
magnet wire being reduced to
0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011"
reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains
the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.
Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now
on.
But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case
here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very
thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation
clear this up.
31 Aug
31 Aug
12:59 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben
Sent: 31 August 2015 01:43
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
> On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to
> 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011"
> reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains
> the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.
>
> Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of
> thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now
on.
suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that
now very thin thread
of
wire? Digging though the doc's and a little
calculation clear this up.
Ben.
I seem to remember that 1620 core runs warm, and you have to wait for it to
get warm before the machine comes on-line ... see last paragraph
http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/ebjoew/IBM_1620_Core_Memory.html
Dave Wade
8:37 a.m.
On 08/31/2015 02:59 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
I seem to remember that 1620 core runs warm, and you have to wait for it to
get warm before the machine comes on-line ... see last paragraph
http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/ebjoew/IBM_1620_Core_Memory.html
Yes, many IBM machines used heaters to stabilize the core
temperature. The 360/40 and 360/50 had heaters for the
local store (register stack). Not sure about the 360/30
where local and main store were all in the same unit. Not
sure if the higher machines also heated the main store.
Jon
30 Aug
30 Aug
5:21 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
Yes, if the terminals had been designed for that. The terminals on these
would have been designed for soldering, so unless you wanted to replace
all the existing terminals, it would probably be best to stick to
soldering. Either a low-tin + copper or non-tin solder really should solve
the problem anyway.
If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM
1620 is ever attempted, I
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly
a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best
choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would
greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.
Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?
10:53 a.m.
On 08/29/2015 03:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
Why? Maybe attaching new bits of wire to the dissolved ends wasn't possible
- i.e. the existing memory couldn't be repaired - and there simply wasn't
the time/resources/money/expertise to rebuild it from scratch. Much better
to replace it *for now* with a more modern part, such that the rest of the
machine could be shown working, and it doesn't rule out the possibility of
a period fix at a later date.
cheers
Jules
On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley
<lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this. ...
I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
"modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked
similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
"falling apart" and was not repairable. 
3 Sep
3 Sep
5:46 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500
Ben Sinclair <ben at bensinclair.com> wrote:
That sounds suspiciously like a problem Henk Stegeman told me he had
encountered with the core memory on a System/3; the problem there had
been a reaction between the core memory solder (or was it the actual
wires used to string the cores?) and the foam used to make a seal for
the air cooling through the core... either way, vital bits of the core
stack got dissolved by the foam over 40 years...
Mike
The CHM has a bit of information, and links to
three other 1620's that
they know about:
http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620
right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.
The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that worked on the
1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of
solder on > the core memory and so the wires of the core memory literally
"dissolved". 
4 Sep
4 Sep
7:19 a.m.
On making PC boards, we had a shop mix the top and bottom
layers. They tried to tell us it didn't matter but our boards
had an edge connector, with different fingers on each side.
It was expensive high temperature PC board as well.
Dwight
2 Sep
2 Sep
11:23 a.m.
One more 1620 can be found here in Finland, Kanavuori computer museum (...or cave,
computers are stored in militarys old cave...here government is not that excited to
support these kind of "hobbies", so that's why computers are not proper
display at the moment...) This place is located around 250km away from Helsinki, very near
of Jyv?skyl?. But I'm 110% sure it is not for sale, these guys have same goal as I
have; try to preserve Finnish computer history.
Here some crappy phone camera photos their collection, I'll take better with my SLR
camera soon as I visit there again.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-NG9EUEFKNWZTRlk
There is jaw dropping stuff like Zuse, RAMAC, U-Link, Data Saab, GE Bull...also there is
another 1800 with Finnish origins!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:59:52 -0400
Subject: Re: IBM 1620
From: billdegnan at gmail.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
How many exist on Earth at this point?
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
--
Bill
vintagecomputer.net
Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
Kevin Tikker
Sent from my iPhone
Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
new. Good luck Digging for one.
27 Aug
27 Aug
1:42 p.m.
On 8/27/2015 3:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly
appreciate.
Kevin Tikker
Sent from my iPhone
And, if you find one, as if they have an IBM 1410, while you are at it.
(As far as I know, NONE of those exist, unless IBM has one squirreled
away somewhere).
JRJ
1:49 p.m.
I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if I have to settle.
In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of
1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in
Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle
for that.
I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing out
there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be
the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.*
b
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
On 8/27/2015 3:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
--
Bill
vintagecomputer.net
Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads
greatly appreciate.
Kevin Tikker
Sent from my iPhone
And, if you find one, as if they have an IBM 1410, while you are at it.
(As far as I know, NONE of those exist, unless IBM has one squirreled
away somewhere).
JRJ
2:54 p.m.
On 8/27/2015 3:49 PM, william degnan wrote:
I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if I
have to settle.
In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of
1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in
Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle
for that.
I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing out
there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be
the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.*
b
Nah. Probably sent them all to Russia to be reverse engineered - two
generations too late. ;) But one might find a Russian 360 clone
floating around Cuba, I suppose.
JRJ
3:20 p.m.
heh...well I didn't say it was a *good* chance, but one can always hope...
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
On 8/27/2015 3:49 PM, william degnan wrote:
--
Bill
vintagecomputer.net
I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if
I have to settle.
In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of
1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in
Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle
for that.
I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing
out
there in a Cuban office building basement ...
somewhere. * That would be
the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.*
b
Nah. Probably sent them all to Russia to be reverse engineered - two
generations too late. ;) But one might find a Russian 360 clone
floating around Cuba, I suppose.
JRJ
3159
days inactive
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77 comments
25 participants
participants (25)
-
ben＠bensinclair.com -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cube1＠charter.net -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
db＠db.net -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
johannesthelen＠hotmail.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
kevalm＠aol.com -
lbickley＠bickleywest.com -
mloewen＠cpumagic.scol.pa.us -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
p.gebhardt＠ymail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
scaron＠umich.edu -
spacewar＠gmail.com -
Sue.Skonetski＠VMSSoftware.com -
tmfdmike＠gmail.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au -
tothwolf＠concentric.net