* Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> [141121 15:41]: She is very understanding. There are wire racks in the kitchen with vintage stuff on them as well as vintage computer equipment spread out over the kitchen table (for more than three years) so that we can't use the table. And best of all, she only threatens to leave every month or so now. :-) Todd

On Friday (11/21/2014 at 08:55PM +0000), tony duell wrote: We only have 2 phase gas over here in the States. It comes in cylinders and I use it for my grill and my garage heater. Sometimes ice fisherman get ripped off too because they pay for 2 phase but when they get out to the ice house and it's -45F out there, they find out they only got single phase gas. That really stinks. -- Chris Elmquist

On 21 Nov 2014, at 12:45, aswood at t-online.de wrote: I have a 60KW 12-lead reconnectable Diesel generator that I?ve been know to use when I need three phase. As for heavy single phase, my wife pretty much expects that every outbuilding will get a 200A sub panel, since we (and the kids) all seem to have hobbies that occasionally require 50A at 240V (such as the cone-ten kiln that the daughter recently received for her tenth birthday). -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"

So, who has run 3-phase to power their MG set and HVAC for their mainframe? Extra points for chilled water and even more for a cooling tower for said water. --Chuck

On 11/21/2014 06:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: Well, I had a friend who bought a pair of 370/145's and had them in his house. He wanted to get one running, but only had 60 A 240 V service. We tried, HARD, to build a phase converter to run the 17 KVA MG set. IBM apparently used the same MG set for a range of 370 models, and the one on the 145 was VERY oversized. The DC load of the CPU was pretty much 290 A at 4.5 V, or about 1.5 KW. The idling current of the MG set was totally insane, even with a phase correcting capacitor bank it was still over the rating of the whole panel. Jon

On 11/22/2014 03:13 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: Well, 3-phase HV distribution is very common here, but transformers for residential distribution are single-phase as a rule. The distribution on the utility easement on my property is 6600V 3-phase, but only two of the wires are buried along my driveway to the transformer sitting on a concrete pad in my front yard. I can probably have all the single-phase power that I want by changing out the transformer, but adding that third wire for 3-phase would undoubtedly cost me substantially. The model here is to distribute single-phase and balance the load by connecting individual transformers to two of the three 3-phase lines. --Chuck

On 11/23/2014 07:24 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: Well, that's what evolution sometimes gets you. The US 3-wire residential distribution system dates from Edison's 1882 DC system (+100,0,-100). One of Edison's original carbon-filament lamps will screw into any modern residential lamp socket. There are homes in the US still using knob-and-tube wiring, as well as Edison-base fuses in the distribution box. Originally, residential distribution was intended for lighting only, so AC versus DC was not an important concern for the average homeowner. 100V (plus a certain amount for line drop) was selected because it was felt not to be a significant electrocution hazard. Although the NEC dates back to 1897, it never has been the sole governing standard in the USA. For example, in the city were I was raised, non-metallic-sheathed cable was illegal; Rigid conduit was the rule. Kept the very strong IBEW in control, it did. When I worked in a steel mill, the distribution panel in our small 4-man shop looked like 460V, 230V, 115V 60Hz AC, 440V, 110V, 220V 25Hz AC and 250V DC, all with accompanying transformers. Larger shops included 3-phase distribution of both 25Hz and 60Hz. The point is, that the US has adopted a course of compatibility with older standards, rather than a revolutionary course. I understand that parts of Europe were also slow to abandon DC residential lighting. --Chuck

I believe the last non-50Hz domestic AC supply in the UK was the 100Hz one from the hydroelectric power station in Lynmouth, North Devon. It was destroyed in the floods of 1952, and after that Lynmouth (and Lynton, etc) got the normal 50Hz supply from the national grid. I suspect DC was around as long, or maybe even longer. Of course a lot of (valve) radios and TVs sold over here into the 1960s were claimed to be 'AC/DC universal' models, although of course this was often just a cost-cutting design with no mains transformer (series string heaters and half wave rectifier for the HT (B+) line). On the other hand I remember 1960s TVs with different strapping of the dropping resistor for AC and DC mains (I guess because the heaters depended on the RMS value of the input, the HT on the peak). So I guess DC mains was still around. And I have a Mullard book on making audio amplifiers (must be 1960s), which gives a design for one that will run off DC mains (no, I don't like the idea of a live chassis for such a thing either!) so I guess there was a need for it. -tony

* Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> [141122 17:56]: [SNIP] Yes, we have 220V 30amp clothes dryer and stove circuits here. Todd

On 11/22/2014 4:36 PM, Todd Goodman wrote: 3 phase power is the key word here. Ben.

Yes, another moronic EU regulation. No idea what the point of it is, probably to please the 'greens' (as I have said many times, when I was a kid. 'green' meant 'naive', and I don't think it has changed much... There was talk of them limiting the power of electric kettles. Come again? Last time I looked, to raise a given volume of water from a giving starting temperature to 100_C and then to vaporise it took a defined amount of energy. The specific heat capacity of water, and the latent heat of vaporisation are known physical quantities, not something you can pass (political) laws about. In fact due to heat losses in the kettle, the higher the input power, the _more_ efficient it is. I feel the rated load capacity of a circuit should be just that. An outlet rated at 15A (say) should be able to supply 15A for ever. What do you do about electic kettles, portable electric heaters, etc? Even portable power tools? Industrial portable power tools (electic drills, etc) in the uk, if not run off internal batteries are 110V. We run them of an isolating transformer with the centre tap of the secondary winding connected to earth. The idea is that in the event of an insulation breakdown so an exposed part ends up conencted to a live part of the tool the maximum voltage the user can get is 55V RMS. Which is painful-ish, but unlikely to be fatal. Anyway. I have a 110V angle grinder here which is specified to have a full load current of 28A (!) No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. I can't be the only UK-classiccmper to have a large jar of new 13A cartridge fuses removed from new plugs that I am fitting to <whatever> and which I have fitted with a 3A fuse. Actually the reputable manufacturers will supply plugs fitted with either a 3A or 13A fuse (in the case of MK (think of them as the UK version of Hubble), the only difference between the 2 types is the fuse, it is quite safe to take a 3A fused one from the factory, fit a 13A fuse and use it on a 3kW electric heater, I have checked this with them). The only problem is that very few places stock the ones with 3A fuses in them. About 20 years ago a local (then) department store mis-ordered MK plugs with 3A fuses. Deciding that they were useless, they put them on sale at 1/4 (about) of list price. I bought all they had on show and asked if they had any more. Yes, another 50 in the stock room. I bought those too. They couldn't understand why I wanted them. -tony

[Vacuum cleaner power ratings] I can believe that. Like the extra transistors not connected to anything in some early transistor radios so the manufacturers could claim 12 transistors or whatever. Nor can I, but I dislike stupid regulations even more. I've not seen all the electical regulations for all EU countries... Until I do I will not be convinced that such wiring doesn't exist anywere.. What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? -tony

OK. But equally if you have multiple outlets on a circuit (presumably often in the same room), you can't draw more than 10A total. Some of my classic computers would not like that! To be fair, most pvercurrent faults on small appliances result in an almost dead short across the mains. And a 10A or 16A breaker will then trip long before a 1A cable catches fire. At one time the UK regulations specifically allowed 3 off 5A (round pin, BS546) socket outlets on a single circuit protected by a 15A rewireable fuse. These plugs were unfused. There was also (and in accordance with the regulations) an adaptor to plug a 2A rated plug into a 15A outlet, again no fuses other than the 15A circuit fuse (radial circuit). Mind you the old wiring regulations, at least in the UK, make horrifying reading. At one time it was required to put a fuse in both the live and neutral wires (and if the latter failed the whole circuit was live). Now of course you put a fuse in the live only. A protective device may break both wires, it may monitor the current in both wires, but what it must not do is break the neutral and not the live. So the interlocked breakers as found on, say, a PDP11/34 are fine, but separate breakers or fuses most certainly are not. I believe at one time in the UK, electricity for lighting was more expensive per kWh than that supplied for 'power' (which mean heating, cooking, etc). As a result, appliances below a certain power had to be connected to the lighting circuit, which often didn't have an earth wire. Ho-hum... -tony

Are those the ones that we used to call 'BS4343'? Red for 415V, blue for 230V, yellow for 110V, used for single and 3 phase over here ? Not common domestically in the UK, but AFAIK they are permitted, and do turn up occasionally. Presumably the German regulations would permit several 16A outlets in the same room, each proteced with its own 16A breaker. Which to me is a 3A cable and I'd protect it with a 3A cartridge fuse in the plug :-) I believe the is a country (probably one that was under British rule at one time) that uses BS1363 sockets (our 13A ones with) unfused plugs on a 15A radial circuit. No real problem, the socket will carry 15A if properly made, but if the plugs/cables end up in the UK, they can be dangerous for the obvious reason. I also dislike -- a lot - the unfused wall wart PSUs/chargers we get in the UK. They plug directly into the 13A socket outlet, and thus the only protective devices is the 32A (or 30A) breaker/fuse in the consumer unit. I normally run them from a fused multi-socket block on my bench, at least then there is some smaller fuse im the circuit. Indeed. Note that its not that you _may_ put a fuse in both wires, it that's you _must_. Thank $deity that rule got removed... -tony

The 230V ones are relatively uncommon over here (although most electical suppliers would stock them, they are not commonly used, certainly not in normal houses). They do turn up when you need a socket rated at more then 13A (these follow an approximate doubling sequence -- 16A, 32A ,63A, 125A) Sure. Over here there are both 4 pin (3 phases and earth), and 5 pin (ditto, with the star point neutral) available. Incidentally, for those who have not come across these connectors, you can't put a plug into the 'wrong' socket. A blue 3 pin 16A (used for 230v single phase) socket will not take a yellow 3 pin 16A plug (110V) The mains input on my lathe is a 230V 16A plug made as part of the switchbox moulding. The supplied cable has a socket to fit that (blue, of course) and a normal BS1363 plug on the other end. The 110V ones are very common here. Used on industrial portable power tools (which as I mentioned are 110V) I assume that's the normal IEC 320 C13/C14 connector. We call it 'cold condition', the 'hot codition' one is the one with the notch between the live/neutral pins as used on kettles, etc. I can remember when for some unknown reason the former was rated at 6A in the UK, the latter at 10A, for all the current-carrying parts were identical. Perhaps it was that the 'hot condition' insulation could withstand a greater temperature rise Phosphor Bronze? I've heard about a number of absolutely lethal cables that were sold over here. Not from name brands of course. Things like unfused plugs, plugs with a fuse that wasn't actually in the circuit, fuses that exploded if there was a short circuit (they are supposed to be HRC sand-filled fuses),wires far too thin, no earth wire, live/neutral swappd etc. Quite often I just don't trust moudled mains leads. I buy a rewireable IEC320 socket, a length of cable and a known-brand BS1363 plug. That way I know it's wired correctly and safely. Another daft regulation IMHO. I wonder... Since these are low power devices anyway, how does the polution caused by the wasted energy in the linear supply compare to that caused by making and scrapping the SMPSU, particularly since the latter often have a ridiculously short life, So they claim. I am not convinced. I am more convinced that the sample submitted for approval has a fusible resistor... That sold has saved a fraction of a penny/cent. What radiation? Unless the transformer was underspecified (too small a core area), this should not happen. I have never had a mains transformer saturate like that. What I have had is wall warts with several output connectors (often a cross-shaped plug with 4 'pins' to fit 2.5mm jack, 3.5mm jack, 2.1mm coaxial power and 2.5mm coaxial power, a separate 1.3mm coaxial power, and another seprate PP3-type battery clip) where the output can be short-circuited if the plugs touch. On at least one occasion the wall wart became hot enough to melt its casing, but the transformer primary (supposed to fuse in a safe way under overload did not open. Again, for anything I depend on I tend to make my own PSU. WIth a 50Hz transformer feeding possibly linear or switching regulators. And with at least mains and output side fuses and often a thermal fuse. -tony

On 24/11/2014 17:59, random832 at fastmail.us wrote: AFAIR (not always guaranteed :-)), that's correct. Which is why we used to have bayonet adapters that could plug into pendant lighting sockets in place of a bulb, and why we also had what amounts to a T-piece or splitter, to allow both the bulb and the adapter to coexist. I think I still have some, somewhere. And pendant light sockets are of course virtually always two-wire, insulated (no metal except the two terminals), no earth. Aha, I've just found four such adapters and one splitter. If I have time tomorrow I'll post a photo somewhere3. -- Pete

On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 12:59:47PM -0500, random832 at fastmail.us wrote: [...] That's usually an artifact of a shared building where services that are shared or otherwise difficult to meter per tenant are included in the rent. By tapping into the communal circuits, one is really just stealing from the other tenants.

Are you saying that all portable electrical devices sold in Germany are wired with 16A flexible cable? I've seen plenty of cables with a German plug on the end that look to me like 6A flexible cable. To be fair, in the event of a dead short, a 16A breaker will trip long before a 6A (or even a 1A) flexible cable would catch fire. And it's hard to think of a fault on a lamp (or most other devices) that causes it to draw more current than it should, but not be a dead short. But... -tony

On 2014-11-23 13:21, Holm Tiffe wrote: Really? All my circuits both in Sweden and Switzerland have 10A breakers on them. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the actual wiring might be designed for more, but that's what *all* my breakers are at. I don't know what the actual plugs are rated for. But for computers, the part that plugs into the computer are rated for 10A. There is a 16A rated model, which you might find on tea kettles, but every computer item I own (or even have owned) have the 10A version. (And Sweden use the same SHUKO plugs you have in Germany.) Hmm. Possible. I don't know what the regulations are around that. I know that some wiring for small lamps seem to have pretty thin wiring. But as Tony remarked - if something actually breaks, it's normally a short circuit, so it will immediately trip both 10A and 16A breakers anyway, and the lamp wiring never have a chance to even start heating up. Johnny

Johnny Billquist wrote: Have a greyish standard computer cable with "Schuko Stecker" and angeled IEC320 C13 connector at he other end in my hands now. On the "Schuko Stecker" I read this: 10-16 ----- 250V Nothing like this on the other end. Schuko is the short form of "Schutzkontakt" Stecker which means the 3rd contact for grounding purposes. I've googeled and learned now that this Plug is also known as CEE 7/4 and when it has a hole for the france type ground contact pin additionally it is called CEE 7/7. It seems to be rated 10A steady and 16A short time. Nevertheless the now standard circuit breakers are B16 Type and they are much cheaper then all other variants since they are the mostly used ones. Yes, exactly like this it was meant. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014, Peter Corlett wrote: NEMA 14-30, 240V 30A, 4-wire, clothes dryers NEMA 14-50, 240V 50A, 4-wire, electric ranges NEMA 10-30, 240V 30A, 3-wire, clothes dryers NEMA 10-50, 240V 50A, 3-wire, electric ranges In the US, with systems installed before 1996, it is common to find NEMA 10 3-wire devices which lack a ground (earth) pin. As of the 1996 NEC, new installations should be using NEMA 14 4-wire devices. With NEMA 10 devices, the practice was to bond the metal frame of the appliance to the neutral wire. These older installations are still allowed for existing circuits only (with some very specific restrictions) per 250.60 "Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers" (1996 NEC), later renumbered to 250.140 in the 1999 NEC.

random832 at fastmail.us wrote: Hmm, not that effective ehy? We also have 4 wires here, 3 phases and one neutral (Star Point) After an Security Device, the RCD it gets split to 5 wires: 3 ?hases, the neutral and an earth line that's connected to the metal enclosure of connected devices. In case of an isolation failure this prevents any injury of persons and the RCD will pop off the power if one of the phases put more than 30mA (thats common) in the eart line. Pictures of a singe ans a 3 phase RCD: http://www.o-digital.com/wholesale-products/2179/2183-2/Residual-Current-De… Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

random832 at fastmail.us wrote: Yes, I've understood. ..but I think the US should have modernized the entire System long before now.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741