13 Dec
2010
13 Dec
'10
11:11 a.m.
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:08:12 -0800
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing
<snip>
After that, I learned to drop by keypunch to occasionally chat with
the ladies (it was comprised entirely of women), and occasionally
drop off some munchies and other things. They knew me and I knew
them.
And I never had an issue with keypunch after that.
--Chuck
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As a matter of fact my very first job was also in a service bureau and
that's where I also learned the importance of being able to charm the
ladies, a skill that's served me well (and gotten me into considerable
trouble) in subsequent years...
mike
13 Dec
13 Dec
11:46 a.m.
On 13 Dec 2010 at 14:11, MikeS wrote:
As a matter of fact my very first job was also in a
service bureau and
that's where I also learned the importance of being able to charm the
ladies, a skill that's served me well (and gotten me into considerable
trouble) in subsequent years...
Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and
legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from
"O", etc. It was all
uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still
put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through
my zero as most people find it to be confusing.
To this day, my cursive sucks, but my block printing is exemplary.
--Chuck
11:50 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 13 Dec 2010 at 14:11, MikeS wrote:
I haven't been able to write in cursive since my architecture classes in
high school. :) I refuse to stop slashing my zeroes and crossing my
sevens though.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
As a matter of fact my very first job was also in
a service bureau and
that's where I also learned the importance of being able to charm the
ladies, a skill that's served me well (and gotten me into considerable
trouble) in subsequent years...
Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and
legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from
"O", etc. It was all
uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still
put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through
my zero as most people find it to be confusing.
12:07 p.m.
On 13 Dec 2010 at 11:50, Gene Buckle wrote:
I haven't been able to write in cursive since my
architecture classes
in high school. :) I refuse to stop slashing my zeroes and crossing
my sevens though.
To be fair, I was never any good at cursive, despite many classroom
hours with the Palmer method (remember the special 3-line paper and
special pens?). Try as I might, I never got any better than "What
the hell is this?" grades in penmanship.
Block-printing I learned to do quickly and well as a radio amateur.
Which seems to imply that motivation is a big contributor to
excellence...
--Chuck
13 Dec
13 Dec
2:27 p.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Another skill to be learned was the ability to
block-print neatly and
legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from
"O", etc. It was all
uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still
put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through
my zero as most people find it to be confusing.
A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the
letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead
now?
One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave examples
of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter
'o'!
How many people still use the Palm "Grafitti" system?
2:39 p.m.
On 2010 Dec 13, at 2:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Years ago as an undergrad, as I was slashing my zeros and sevens (as I
still do), a grad student tried to lecture me "decorate the alphabet,
not the numeral system". Which may be a nice idea in principal, but it
run counters to better-established conventions.
Another skill to be learned was the ability to
block-print neatly and
legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from
"O", etc. It was all
uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still
put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through
my zero as most people find it to be confusing.
A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through
the
letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL
dead
now?
One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave
examples
of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter
'o'!
2:54 p.m.
On 2010 Dec 13, at 2:39 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
On 2010 Dec 13, at 2:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^ whoops: runs counter
to
Did IBM put the dot in the middle of the Oh or the Zero on 3270
terminals? - I can't remember which.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Years ago as an undergrad, as I was slashing my zeros and sevens (as I
still do), a grad student tried to lecture me "decorate the alphabet,
not the numeral system". Which may be a nice idea in principal, but it
run counters to better-established conventions. Another skill to be learned was the ability to
block-print neatly and
legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from
"O", etc. It was all
uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still
put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through
my zero as most people find it to be confusing.
A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through
the
letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL
dead
now?
One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave
examples
of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the
letter
'o'!
2:58 p.m.
On 13 Dec 2010 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote:
A long time ago, there used to be some people who put
slashes through
the letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they
ALL dead now?
One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave
examples of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing
the letter 'o'!
I used a coding form where the convention was pre-printed on the
form. Not that anyone red the green stuff...
I've always wondered what the Scandanavians do to differentiate 0
from O from ?.
Don't some Micros~1 or IBM character sets use a dot in the middle of
a zero?
--Chuck
14 Dec
14 Dec
4:47 p.m.
On Monday, December 13, 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've always wondered what the Scandanavians do to
differentiate 0
from O from ?.
On here, those look like 3 very distinct characters. :) I'd also add in
?/? the vs the null set. Using ? as a variable would just get
confusing. :)
Don't some Micros~1 or IBM character sets use a
dot in the middle of
a zero?
I think that the IBM VGA font (or a close relative from IBM, whatever
was used in my parent's 286-based IBM PS/1) did.
Also, "Liberation Mono" which I happen to use for my mail reader, seems
to also dot the 0.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
5:21 p.m.
On 14 Dec 2010 at 19:47, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Monday, December 13, 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Again, my question pertained to writing such stuff as keypunch forms.
If a stroked-oh is a genuine letter in Scandanvian alphabets, what
do the writers of such forms do to distinguish plain oh from zero?
The answer seems to be that the oh or zero gets a horizontal stroke
through it. Good enough.
--Chuck
I've always wondered what the Scandanavians
do to differentiate 0
from O from ?.
On here, those look like 3 very distinct characters. :) I'd also add
in ?/? the vs the null set. Using ? as a variable would just get
confusing. :) 
13 Dec
13 Dec
4:21 p.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I forget who, but someone wanted the letter 'O' to have a dot in the
center.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Another skill to be learned was the ability to
block-print neatly and
legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from
"O", etc. It was all
uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still
put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through
my zero as most people find it to be confusing.
A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the
letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead
now?
One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave examples
of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter
'o'! 
8:49 p.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
On 12/13/2010 05:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and
> legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from
"O", etc. It was all
> uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still
> put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through
> my zero as most people find it to be confusing.
"Screw 'em." ;-)
I still slash my zeros, sevens *and* zees... (My trip to Germany
influenced the latter two...)
A long time ago, there used to be some people who put
slashes through the
letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead
now?
Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true, but
I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an individual
that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM 3090 mainframes)
and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the zeros were not...
One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their
order forms gave examples
of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter
'o'!
I thought that was the Ooo Ess Gubbermint... ;-) Their EZ1040 form of
two decades past used a system as such, IIRC... (but I might not)
How many people still use the Palm
"Grafitti" system?
/me ashamedly raises a hand... and not-so-ashamedly wishes one could
still buy a smartfone that recognizes it... damn crackberries...
Laterz,
"Merch"
14 Dec
14 Dec
12:27 a.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
On 2010 Dec 13, at 8:49 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote:
On 12/13/2010 05:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism.
A long time ago, there used to be some people who
put slashes through
the
letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL
dead
now?
Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true,
but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an
individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM 3090
mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the zeros
were not...
9:21 a.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
On 14 Dec 2010 at 0:27, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Not that. My 1960s IBM manuals (mostly S/360) all show coding form
samples with slashed zeroes.
--Chuck
Noper, they
just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true,
but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an
individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM
3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the
zeros were not...
Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism. 
9:56 a.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
At 9:21 AM -0800 12/14/10, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 14 Dec 2010 at 0:27, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Not that. My 1960s IBM manuals (mostly S/360) all show coding form
samples with slashed zeroes.
(US) Military? I remember one of my bosses (1975) insisted that we
slash our Oh's. Not sure of his background, but it could have been
military. This was an IBM 1130 shop.
John
Noper,
they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true,
but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an
individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM
3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the
zeros were not...
Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism.
10:13 a.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
On 2010 Dec 14, at 9:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 14 Dec 2010 at 0:27, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Not that. My 1960s IBM manuals (mostly S/360) all show coding form
samples with slashed zeroes.
OK, .. still not a Canadianism, though. Would seem like a strange
site-specific mod.
Looking at some old docs, it appears it wasn't consistent even within
IBM: an early 60's IBM brochure shows an EBCDIC table in which the
character zero has a slash, in the same table the zeroes in the punch
codes do not have a slash. A 360/370 assembler textbook (Struble/U of
Oregon) has assembler listings with the Ohs slashed and the zeroes
plain.
Are there no IBMers out there that remember whether the dot was in the
middle of the Oh or the Zero in 3270/3278 terminals?
Noper,
they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true,
but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an
individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM
3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the
zeros were not...
Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism.
10:25 a.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
On 14 Dec 2010 at 10:13, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Are there no IBMers out there that remember whether
the dot was in the
middle of the Oh or the Zero in 3270/3278 terminals?
I've got a couple of EGA cards whwere it's in the middle of the zero.
--Chuck
12:12 p.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
On 14 Dec 2010 at 10:13, Brent Hilpert wrote:
I am pretty sure htat's true of the CGA card too. The MDA slashes the
zero. All of them leave the 'Oh' unchanged.
But f ocruse the PC (5150, etc) tended to be a lot more 'noraml' than
most IBM machines.
-tony
Are there no IBMers out there that remember
whether the dot was in the
middle of the Oh or the Zero in 3270/3278 terminals?
I've got a couple of EGA cards whwere it's in the middle of the zero. 
10:44 a.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
From: Brent Hilpert
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 10:13 AM
On 2010 Dec 14, at 9:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 14 Dec 2010 at 0:27, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>> Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I
dunno if it's really true,
>>> but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an
>>> individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM
>>> 3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the
>>> zeros were not...
>> Nothing to do with Canada to my experience,
more likely an IBMism.
> Not that. My 1960s IBM manuals (mostly S/360) all
show coding form
> samples with slashed zeroes.
OK, .. still not a Canadianism, though. Would seem
like a strange
site-specific mod.
Looking at some old docs, it appears it wasn't
consistent even within
IBM: an early 60's IBM brochure shows an EBCDIC table in which the
character zero has a slash, in the same table the zeroes in the punch
codes do not have a slash. A 360/370 assembler textbook (Struble/U of
Oregon) has assembler listings with the Ohs slashed and the zeroes
plain.
Are there no IBMers out there that remember whether
the dot was in the
middle of the Oh or the Zero in 3270/3278 terminals?
I first learned to program on an IBM 1401 and a System/360 (running DOS)
in 1969, and only worked in IBM-oriented computer labs in college and grad
school until I met the DEC-20 in 1977; I continued to be bicomputeral until
the Stanford job in 1984. I think that qualifies me as a kind of IMBer.
I was taught, as were my various colleagues in the IBM world, to slash my
alpha O characters, since alphabetic text was uncommon in data processing
and we'd get tired of slashing all those numeric zeroes.
One person's experience.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.PDPplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
11:19 a.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
On 14 Dec 2010 at 10:44, Rich Alderson wrote:
I first learned to program on an IBM 1401 and a System/360 (running
DOS) in 1969, and only worked in IBM-oriented computer labs in college
and grad school until I met the DEC-20 in 1977; I continued to be
bicomputeral until the Stanford job in 1984. I think that qualifies
me as a kind of IMBer.
A quick check in bitsavers IBM collection seems to reveal no
particular convention. For example, the 1620 Fortran II manual shows
no slashes through either the ohs or the zeroes.
Some publications show slashes through the ohs, others through the
zeroes.
Now that I think about it, since I gave up doing either in my
handwriting many years ago, I don't remember which I used. Maybe I
can find an old coding form of mine somewhere.
--Chuck
11:31 a.m.
New subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus...
A quick check in bitsavers IBM collection seems to
reveal no
particular convention. ?For example, the 1620 Fortran II manual shows
no slashes through either the ohs or the zeroes.
Likewise, for IBM terminals, the dot-in-the-center is not consistent.
Some have, most do not.
I wonder if it was a RFQ feature.
--
Will
12:01 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the
letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead
now?
There still are. At least about 5 million of them, as the ? is a danish
letter. It is very important, because "beer" without the ? would spell
"l".
Can hardly say "I want to order a bottle of l" :-)
12:16 a.m.
On 14 Dec 2010 at 9:01, Nico de Jong wrote:
There still are. At least about 5 million of them, as
the ? is a
danish letter. It is very important, because "beer" without the ?
would spell "l". Can hardly say "I want to order a bottle of l" :-)
Not my question (maybe Fred's?).
Mine was "How did the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians differentiate "O"
from "?" and zero when they wrote on coding
forms?
--Chuck
12:23 a.m.
On 14 Dec 2010 at 9:01, Nico de Jong wrote:
> There still are. At least about 5 million of them,
as the ? is a
> danish letter. It is very important, because "beer" without the ?
> would spell "l". Can hardly say "I want to order a bottle of l"
:-)
Not my question (maybe Fred's?).
Mine was "How did the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians
differentiate "O"
from "?" and zero when they wrote on coding forms?
Most colleagues put a hyphen through the O (Oh), whereas a 0 (zero) was left
"as is"
9:34 a.m.
In article <8A0A150BE5AC4AF9B57B706547E2C405 at udvikling>,
"Nico de Jong" <nico at farumdata.dk> writes:
Most colleagues put a hyphen through the O (Oh),
whereas a 0 (zero) was left
"as is"
Ken Knowlton's paper on BEFLIX had this, but only in the text intended
for consumption by a computer.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
15 Dec
15 Dec
4:46 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Micropad OCR gadget (circa 1980) that I once had required
slashing of the letter 'o', with the unslashed version interpreted as a zero.
(and to comment on another thread, I think the 286 Compaq luggable that I had
for a while had a dot in the middle of the zero rather than a slash - I'm not
sure if that was a standard feature or something oddball about my machine)
cheers
Jules
Another skill to be learned was the ability to
block-print neatly and
legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from
"O", etc. It was all
uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still
put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through
my zero as most people find it to be confusing.
A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the
letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead
now?
One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave examples
of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter
'o'!
5:04 p.m.
On 15 Dec 2010 at 18:46, Jules Richardson wrote:
(and to comment on another thread, I think the 286
Compaq luggable
that I had for a while had a dot in the middle of the zero rather than
a slash - I'm not sure if that was a standard feature or something
oddball about my machine)
I happened to see an ad today in a 1987 PC Tech Journal (I've got to
catch up on my reading) with an ad for 3270 emulation. The zeroes
have dots in the center.
--Chuck
16 Dec
16 Dec
5:41 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
This is an amazing picture for all the Amiga people out there.
If you look you will find all sorts of great things in this image that bring you back to
those times. There is also a Commodore 64 and Atari ST.
http://www.interstation3d.com/portfolio/new_gallery/16bit.html
If this was in print, I would buy it tomorrow.
6:39 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
Great photo...
Also if you note, the photo on the wall above the monitor next to the
Back to the Future poster... is a poster for the Atari 1040STfm
computer, kinda ironic, huh :-)
Curt
Christian Liendo wrote:
This is an amazing picture for all the Amiga people
out there.
If you look you will find all sorts of great things in this image that bring you back to
those times. There is also a Commodore 64 and Atari ST.
http://www.interstation3d.com/portfolio/new_gallery/16bit.html
If this was in print, I would buy it tomorrow.
6:58 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
Also if you note, the photo on the wall above the
monitor next to the Back
to the Future poster... is a poster for the Atari 1040STfm computer, kinda
ironic, huh :-)
This means the owner of the Amiga has pure love for the technology, and
it isn't polarized to commodore, atari or whatever :)
7 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
The man who did the picture never owned an Amiga, he owned an ST..
Quoting the artist
"I must admit I had Atari ST not Amiga ;), but my friend had Amiga and it had way
better graphics and sound than my ST. So that's the reason why I decided to model
Amiga for this illustration, out of respect. :) "
I like all the little details
The Commodore 64 on the left
The image from DeluxePaint for the Amiga
The Vic-20 and Commodore 128 and 80 Micro books
It's just a great great picture..
--- On Thu, 12/16/10, Curt @ Atari Museum <curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote:
Back to the Future poster... is a poster for the Atari 1040STfm computer, kinda ironic,
huh :-)
Curt
8:03 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
At 7:00 AM -0800 12/16/10, Christian Liendo wrote:
I like all the little details
The Commodore 64 on the left
The image from DeluxePaint for the Amiga
The Vic-20 and Commodore 128 and 80 Micro books
The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the
monitor, and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one
of them is falling off the side of the desk like a lemming.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
8:20 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 7:00 AM -0800 12/16/10, Christian Liendo wrote:
If you look closely, he's got a thread tied around him while the guy
standing on the joystick is acting as the anchor. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
I like all the little details
The Commodore 64 on the left
The image from DeluxePaint for the Amiga
The Vic-20 and Commodore 128 and 80 Micro books
The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the monitor,
and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one of them is
falling off the side of the desk like a lemming.
11:51 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Ah! I was wondering what was going on with the guy on the joystick.
Zane
The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the monitor,
and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one of them is
falling off the side of the desk like a lemming.
If you look closely, he's got a thread tied around him while the guy standing
on the joystick is acting as the anchor. :) 
3:51 p.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
Ah! ?I was wondering what was going on with the guy on
the joystick.
I like the guy under the mouse. At first I thought he got squished by
it, but I see he made a jack out of a paperclip and an IC. He's
motorpool!
18 Dec
18 Dec
1:48 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On 16/12/10 19:51, Zane H. Healy wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
Absolutely breathtaking - how long did this take?
The attention to detail is staggering - even the reflection of the glare
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Ah! I was wondering what was going on with the guy on the joystick.
Zane
The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the
monitor, and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one
of them is falling off the side of the desk like a lemming.
If you look closely, he's got a thread tied around him while the guy
standing on the joystick is acting as the anchor. :) from the desklamp on the 1081 perfectly captures the
anti-reflective
coating.
Mark.
19 Dec
19 Dec
5:25 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Sat, 18 Dec 2010, Mark Wickens wrote:
The attention to detail is staggering - even the
reflection of the glare from
the desklamp on the 1081 perfectly captures the anti-reflective coating.
My 1081 does not have an anti-reflective coating, and its power-LED is
red.
But the picture is great, have it as desktop background image now. Only
the aspect ratio is, well, a bit insane... would prefer a 4:3 image.
Christian
7:47 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
At 2:25 PM +0100 12/19/10, Christian Corti wrote:
But the picture is great, have it as desktop background
image now.
Only the aspect ratio is, well, a bit insane... would prefer a 4:3
image.
Letterbox it using your favorite image editing software.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
20 Dec
20 Dec
1:54 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Letterbox it using your favorite image editing
software.
I don't think so, no software can fill the missing top and bottom parts
(and the image already *is* letterboxed...). I don't want to crop the left
and right sides, and I don't want to stretch the image vertically. For
now, I've filled the borders with a dark blueish color.
Christian
7:20 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
At 10:54 AM +0100 12/20/10, Christian Corti wrote:
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote:
The problem is not that it is letterboxed, as it isn't. It is at a
strange aspect ratio. If you've filled in the missing areas with
dark blueish boarders the you have already letterboxed it.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
Letterbox it using your favorite image editing
software.
I don't think so, no software can fill the missing top and bottom
parts (and the image already *is* letterboxed...). I don't want to
crop the left and right sides, and I don't want to stretch the image
vertically. For now, I've filled the borders with a dark blueish
color.
Christian
21 Dec
21 Dec
2:34 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote:
The problem is not that it is letterboxed, as it
isn't. It is at a strange
aspect ratio. If you've filled in the missing areas with dark blueish
boarders the you have already letterboxed it.
Isn't that just a matter of opinion? ;-)
An image with that strange aspect ratio is always displayed letterboxed on
my monitor, with or without filled borders...
Christian
20 Dec
20 Dec
2:23 p.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Christian Corti wrote:
I don't think so, no software can fill the missing
top and bottom parts
(and the image already *is* letterboxed...). I don't want to crop the left
and right sides, and I don't want to stretch the image vertically. For
now, I've filled the borders with a dark blueish color.
So, is anybody here good enough at PhotoShop or equivalent to add some
more content to extend it? Maybe some Space Invaders ships above?
16 Dec
16 Dec
8:29 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On 12/16/2010 10:03 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 7:00 AM -0800 12/16/10, Christian Liendo wrote:
And is that the Hogwart's Express train engine to the left of the
monitor? Yeah, I know that's anachronistic - but fun to contemplate anyway!
Later,
Charlie C.
I like all the little details
The Commodore 64 on the left
The image from DeluxePaint for the Amiga
The Vic-20 and Commodore 128 and 80 Micro books
The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the
monitor, and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one of
them is falling off the side of the desk like a lemming.
Zane
8:18 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Great photo...
Also if you note, the photo on the wall above the monitor next to the Back to
the Future poster... is a poster for the Atari 1040STfm computer, kinda
ironic, huh :-)
There's a couple of 80 Micro magazines/books on the shelving in the back
too. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
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Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
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holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
8:58 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
In article <4D0A24AB.9020605 at atarimuseum.com>,
"Curt @ Atari Museum" <curt at atarimuseum.com> writes:
Great photo...
Its not a photo, its a rendering... FYI.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
7:48 a.m.
New subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Christian Liendo
<christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
This is an amazing picture for all the Amiga people
out there.
If you look you will find all sorts of great things in this image that bring you back to
those times. There is also a Commodore 64 and Atari ST.
http://www.interstation3d.com/portfolio/new_gallery/16bit.html
Gorgeous.
-ethan
8:55 a.m.
In article <4D08F504.10541.217C142 at cclist.sydex.com>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
I happened to see an ad today in a 1987 PC Tech
Journal (I've got to
catch up on my reading) with an ad for 3270 emulation. The zeroes
have dots in the center.
Real 3270 terminals have a dot in the center of the zero.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
12:28 p.m.
I'm pretty sure the Micropad OCR gadget (circa 1980) that I once had required
slashing of the letter 'o', with the unslashed version interpreted as a zero.
(and to comment on another thread, I think the 286 Compaq luggable that I had
for a while had a dot in the middle of the zero rather than a slash - I'm not
sure if that was a standard feature or something oddball about my machine)
FWIW, I've just pulled a book off my bookshelf. 'Assembler Language
Programmign, The IBM System/360 and 370', 2nd edition 1975.
It says :
'Note that the letter O (Oh) is written as 0 to distinguish it clearly
from the digit O (sero). We follow this convention in
the description of
any statement or card that is fed to the computer'
So in that book (and presumably in other related manuals/documentation),
the letter gets the slash.
-tony
2:15 p.m.
On 16 Dec 2010 at 20:28, Tony Duell wrote:
It says :
'Note that the letter O (Oh) is written as 0 to distinguish it clearly
from the digit O (sero). We follow this convention in the description
of any statement or card that is fed to the computer'
So in that book (and presumably in other related
manuals/documentation), the letter gets the slash.
Okay, let's look at IBM publication SC20-1646-6, "A Programmer's
Introduction to IBM System/360 Assembler Language" (August 1970) on
bitsavers as:
http://bit.ly/fYgJTZ
Note that, starting on PDF page 10, and on all subsequent coding
forms, the zero is slashed, not the letter O.
Even more curious, is the reference in the title to "Assembler
Language" rather than "Assembly Language", as the purists would hav
it.
If your book is an IBM publication, it shows only that IBM was
consistent in its inconsistency.
It'd be interesting if someone could come up with a corporate
directive that specifies what the "official" convention was.
--Chuck
2:30 p.m.
On 12/16/10 4:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
If your book is an IBM publication, it shows only that
IBM was
consistent in its inconsistency.
It'd be interesting if someone could come up with a corporate
directive that specifies what the "official" convention was.
*That's* not gonna happen...
IBM's different hardware groups might as well be different companies,
as far as technical conventions are concerned.
Consider this: although "iSeries" and "pSeries" hardware became the
same physical platform when POWER5 was introduced, but the FRU codes for
adapters and accessories weren't merged until last year. A gigabit
ethernet adapter for an i5 system, for example, was a different product
code - at 2-4x the price - as the IDENTICAL PCI card for p5.
Doc Shipley
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:30 p.m.
Even more curious, is the reference in the title to
"Assembler
Language" rather than "Assembly Language", as the purists would hav
it.
Yes, the title is 'Assembler...' not 'Assembly...'. It suprised me too.
If your book is an IBM publication, it shows only that IBM was
consistent in its inconsistency.
It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is Addison-Wesley, and the
author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon.
-tony
2:51 p.m.
On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote:
It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is
Addison-Wesley, and the
author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon.
That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines
are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town).
UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it
be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was
finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now,
they're breaking ground on a football administration building.
Sigh...
--Chuck
2:53 p.m.
On 12/17/10 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote:
A "football administration" building?
Good lord.
How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society,
outgrow the whole "sports" thing?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher
is Addison-Wesley, and the
author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon.
That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines
are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town).
UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it
be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was
finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now,
they're breaking ground on a football administration building. 
2:59 p.m.
On 12/17/10 2:53 PM, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 12/17/10 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I s the modern equivalent of the gladtorial games
On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote:
A "football administration" building?
Good lord.
How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society,
outgrow the whole "sports" thing?
-Dave It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher
is Addison-Wesley, and the
author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon.
That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines
are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town).
UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it
be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was
finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now,
they're breaking ground on a football administration building.
3:30 p.m.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 12/17/10 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Unless someone comes up with a virus that only kills stupid people, never.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote:
A "football administration" building?
Good lord.
How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society, outgrow the
whole "sports" thing?
It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher
is Addison-Wesley, and the
author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon.
That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines
are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town).
UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it
be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was
finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now,
they're breaking ground on a football administration building.
18 Dec
18 Dec
11:12 a.m.
Oh, don't get ms started...
How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as
a society,
outgrow the whole "sports" thing?
Far too many years, that's alL I can say :=-( I am convicned such things
cause brain damage.
FWIW, I have never taken part in any sporting activity or anything
related. I have never watched any sporting activity or anything related.
And I never intend to do either.
-tony
19 Dec
19 Dec
12:53 p.m.
On Dec 18, 2010, at 2:12 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Oh, don't get ms started...
This is not in dispute. There's been a lot of media coverage here recently about
(in particular) football players and concussions. And just two weeks ago, a youngish boy
was struck and killed by a baseball during practice. Tragic. He'd still be alive if
his parents had encouraged the pursuit if something a little more...you know,
"evolved".
India and China are now eating our lunch in terms of technological development and
progress, due in part I'm convinced to our teaching of sports rather than science and
engineering (or really ANYTHING else) in our colleges.
And you know, India and China really have EARNED that lunch, and we deserve to have it
taken away.
It makes me sick.
How many hundreds of years will it be before
we, as a society,
outgrow the whole "sports" thing?
Far too many years, that's alL I can say :=-( I am convicned such things
cause brain damage. FWIW, I have never taken part in any sporting activity
or anything
related. I have never watched any sporting activity or anything related.
And I never intend to do either.
Same here. "Playing ball" was fun when I was about five years old. After
that, well, not so much.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
1:25 p.m.
What's the problem with sports? Everyone is good at something and not good
at many other things, if you can throw a football but cannot do engineering
work then go play sports. You can argue about how society values
professions, but I can't see why people cannot do what they are good at and
make a living at it whatever it is. Ever think people want to be sports
stars because every other profession has no job security and pays shit? I
think kids going into engineering are stupid, they cannot make a living at
it in the US same with programming and quite a few other brainy jobs. At one
point in our history engineers, programmers, doctors and lawyers all pretty
much made the same money and had the same respect, which of those 4 make the
money now?
So a kid died from a baseball, big deal. Kids die every year from being
kids, always has been this way. If concussions were not that big of a
problem we would probably know less about how the brain works then we know
now. If all you teach kids is to never do anything they might get hurt
doing, you might as well kiss off any human progress from now on. Some
things that are unknown can be risky. Marie Sklodowska Curie died from
complications of radiation, but her work on radioactivity advanced human
kind quite a bit. Its a good thing Columbus discovered America because his
calculations on the route to India were so far off that he would have died
without hitting land that he didn't know existed (screwing up has benefits
as well).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing
On Dec 18, 2010, at 2:12 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Oh, don't get ms started...
This is not in dispute. There's been a lot of media coverage here
recently about (in particular) football players and concussions. And just
two weeks ago, a youngish boy was struck and killed by a baseball during
practice. Tragic. He'd still be alive if his parents had encouraged the
pursuit if something a little more...you know, "evolved".
India and China are now eating our lunch in terms of technological
development and progress, due in part I'm convinced to our teaching of
sports rather than science and engineering (or really ANYTHING else) in our
colleges.
And you know, India and China really have EARNED that lunch, and we
deserve to have it taken away.
It makes me sick.
How many hundreds of years will it be before
we, as a society,
outgrow the whole "sports" thing?
Far too many years, that's alL I can say :=-( I am convicned such things
cause brain damage. FWIW, I have never taken part in any sporting activity
or anything
related. I have never watched any sporting activity or anything related.
And I never intend to do either.
Same here. "Playing ball" was fun when I was about five years old. After
that, well, not so much.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL=
20 Dec
20 Dec
9:18 a.m.
On 12/19/10 4:25 PM, Teo Zenios wrote:
What's the problem with sports?
Chuck hit it on the nose: "Grown men and women playing children's
games for big bucks." I have a major problem with the fact that we pay
these people gazillions of dollars to play like children while the
people working to cure cancer (etc) and make other REAL contributions to
society are making practically nothing.
Everyone is good at something and not
good at many other things, if you can throw a football but cannot do
engineering work then go play sports.
Or study medicine. Or turn a wrench building (not designing)
spacecraft. Or fix cars. Or build houses. Or become a commercial
pilot. (big bucks there!) Or do pretty much any other grownup activity
that's actually productive.
Further, this massive obsession with playing games affects the lives
of far more people than just the ones playing. You've seen it; this
whole country grinds to a halt when Superbowl time approaches. I can't
get anything done for a solid week! And even outside of Superbowl time,
it's TV TV TV all the time, watching other people play games. (not that
sports is the only time-waster on TV, but from where I sit, it's a big one)
That's the problem I have with sports.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11:44 a.m.
Chuck hit it on the nose: "Grown men and women
playing children's games
for big bucks." I have a major problem with the fact that we pay these
people gazillions of dollars to play like children while the people
working to cure cancer (etc) and make other REAL contributions to society
are making practically nothing.
Dave, I partially agree with you, but yo're having a short-sighted view
of the whole situation.
- Sports take a lot of sweat and luck for the one being on "top" and
getting big bucks
- A sport star who gets big bucks, takes with him a complete legion of
beneficiaries. Lots of jobs, etc.
- If you stop to think about it, they are doing something very
pleasureful for big bucks. System admin isn't about doing something you
love, for big bucks? :oD
Greetz
Alexandre, with a (insert expletive here) powerful Flu :(
11:47 a.m.
New subject: Sports! (was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)
On 12/20/2010 9:18 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
I'd wager that most people *do* end up doing this. There's only so many
slots in professional sports teams, after all. (This, despite all
colleges teaching nothing but sports these days. I wonder how that works?)
As far as sports not being "productive," don't underestimate the value
of the production of entertainment, camaraderie and social experiences.
I'm not sure what the point of living would be if all we were was
productive. I don't disagree that sports players' salaries are
disproportionately large, but blaming that on sport itself is ridiculous
-- blame capitalism if you must. There is a demand for it or they
wouldn't command the salaries they get (it's not like it's coming out of
your taxes), and just because you're not a fan doesn't mean others
shouldn't be (or that others are childish for being fans.)
Personally, I could argue that the money spent making "Star Trek"
movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but
I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I
certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like
ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.)
Everyone is good at something and not
good at many other things, if you can throw a football but cannot do
engineering work then go play sports.
Or study medicine. Or turn a wrench building (not designing)
spacecraft. Or fix cars. Or build houses. Or become a commercial
pilot. (big bucks there!) Or do pretty much any other grownup
activity that's actually productive.
Further, this massive obsession with playing games affects the lives
of far more people than just the ones playing. You've seen it; this
whole country grinds to a halt when Superbowl time approaches.
It does? I don't seem to recall this ever happening, but maybe I've
been blissfully ignorant.
I can't get anything done for a solid week!
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're exaggerating, just a
tiny bit.
And even outside of Superbowl time, it's TV TV TV
all the time,
watching other people play games. (not that sports is the only
time-waster on TV, but from where I sit, it's a big one)
And you're forced to watch this where you live? Must be *awful*. TV in
general is -fairly- passive regardless of what you're watching. You
don't ever watch TV, do you? Because that sounds like time you could be
spending being more productive. Making REAL grownup contributions to
society. :)
- Josh
-Dave
12:02 p.m.
New subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you still reading this?
Personally, I could argue that the money spent making
"Star Trek"
movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but
I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I
certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like
ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.)
Actually, I liked it after Robert Wise cut out a lot of the fat. The
director's cut is much more liveable than the original theatrical release.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. ----
12:12 p.m.
New subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you still reading this?
Ditto... I quite like ST:TMP these days. It's more of a "pure" sci-fi movie
than
most of the others that came after it.
As an aside... that movie cost an insane amount of money. $40M when it was first
made. There was an interesting tidbit of info in one of the interviews on the
Blu-ray extras. The Paramount execs were discussing who would direct the second
movie, and one of them asked the question "Can he do it for less than 40 @#$@%
million dollars?" ST:II cost something like $4M. Interestingly, many of the sets
that drove up the cost of the movie were recycled in the later Trek movies as
well as ST:TNG and the subsequent TV shows.
Getting back to the subject of sports... I used to gripe about people getting
into sports as much as they do, but I think they have their place. I also don't
mind them when it's people spending their own money on them, for much the same
reason that was presented below. People are free to spend their leisure how they
see fit. I do think that the claims that they generate revenue for academia is
spurious however.
________________________________
From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 2:02:12 PM
Subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus
was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you still reading this?
Personally, I could argue that the money spent making
"Star Trek"
movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but
I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I
certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like
ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.)
Actually, I liked it after Robert Wise cut out a lot of the fat. The
director's cut is much more liveable than the original theatrical release.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. ----
12:20 p.m.
New subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you sti
As an aside... that movie cost an insane amount of
money. $40M when it was
first made. There was an interesting tidbit of info in one of the
interviews on the Blu-ray extras. The Paramount execs were discussing who
would direct the second movie, and one of them asked the question "Can he do
it for less than 40 @#$@% million dollars?" ST:II cost something like $4M.
That was how Harve Bennett ended up captaining the ST:TOS movies. The
executive in question was Charley Bluhdorn, who it must be recalled was
responsible for several of Paramount's remarkable financial bombs such as
Paint Your Wagon. The Mission: Impossible cast recalls this ruefully as
their unit was routinely overbudget and attracted Bluhdorn's ire multiple
times for the excesses, which the production team usually ignored.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Perl scripting: the ultimate open source software. -------------------------
12:29 p.m.
New subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you sti
Interesting... I think it's interesting that despite the criticism by Paramount
management... the movie still made a decent amount of money. Just not enough for
their liking apparently.
________________________________
From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 2:20:52 PM
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service
bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you sti
As an aside... that movie cost an insane amount of
money. $40M when it was
first made. There was an interesting tidbit of info in one of the
interviews on the Blu-ray extras. The Paramount execs were discussing who
would direct the second movie, and one of them asked the question "Can he do
it for less than 40 @#$@% million dollars?" ST:II cost something like $4M.
That was how Harve Bennett ended up captaining the ST:TOS movies. The
executive in question was Charley Bluhdorn, who it must be recalled was
responsible for several of Paramount's remarkable financial bombs such as
Paint Your Wagon. The Mission: Impossible cast recalls this ruefully as
their unit was routinely overbudget and attracted Bluhdorn's ire multiple
times for the excesses, which the production team usually ignored.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Perl scripting: the ultimate open source software. -------------------------
1:19 p.m.
New subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you still reading this?
About the only tolerable part of the entire movie is the spacedock scene
from when Kirk enters the shuttle pod and is taken over
until it docks
on the side of the secondary hull. Not too much else is really
worth
watching. Thank God for ST: II or the Star Trek franchise may have
gone down the toilet all together due to TMP.
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Personally, I
could argue that the money spent making "Star Trek"
movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but
I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I
certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like
ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.)
Actually, I liked it after Robert Wise cut out a lot of the fat. The
director's cut is much more liveable than the original theatrical release.
12:22 p.m.
New subject: Sports! (was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)
On 20 Dec 2010 at 11:47, Josh Dersch wrote:
Personally, I could argue that the money spent making
"Star Trek"
movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but
I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I
certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like
ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.)
I don't care what professional sports teams spend on tossing a ball
around and pretending that it means something Important. That's
capitalism and their purpose is to make money. Fine--godspeed to
them.
My gripe is with a public university spending outrageous amounts of
time and money on varsity-level competitive sports benefits no one.
The UofO boasts a football coach with a 7-figure guaranteed annual
salary; hundreds of millions over the last decade or so in
construction alone.
And the players get tuition--nothing more, since they're "amateurs"
by NCAA convention. If they incur injuries that will cripple them
for life, that's their lookout.
Heck, it's been going on for a long time, I know. After all, I'm an
old "Boilermaker"...
--Chuck
12:28 p.m.
New subject: Sports!
At 02:22 PM 12/20/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
My gripe is with a public university spending
outrageous amounts of
time and money on varsity-level competitive sports benefits no one.
The UofO boasts a football coach with a 7-figure guaranteed annual
salary; hundreds of millions over the last decade or so in
construction alone.
Keeps the alumni coming back and making donations.
- John
12:40 p.m.
New subject: Sports!
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 3:28 PM, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
At 02:22 PM 12/20/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Not all alumni. I haven't given a dime to my alma mater except to
directly-fund a scholarship for a study abroad program that I
participated in twice. I figured _that_ was worth some payback.
But I do get your point that sports fame spurs many alumni to give.
-ethan
My gripe is with a public university spending
outrageous amounts of
time and money on varsity-level competitive sports benefits no one...
Keeps the alumni coming back and making donations.
1:29 p.m.
New subject: Sports!
Keeps the alumni coming back and making donations.
Universities pull in far more money licensing their sports images. If
it were not for that, most of the public schools would be a run down
shells of what they are now.
Pretty simple - you need the football administration buildings to have
the shiny new computers and labs.
--
Will
2:17 p.m.
New subject: Sports!
On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:29, William Donzelli wrote:
Pretty simple - you need the football administration
buildings to have
the shiny new computers and labs.
As anyone would realize if they took a second to look at the record
of football powerhouses such as MIT and Caltech...
--Chuck
2:42 p.m.
New subject: Sports!
On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:29, William Donzelli wrote:
We proudly boast we're "undefeated since 1993". [Actually haven't
fielded a team since then.] But also, a season in 1944 when the team
was not only undefeated, but unscored upon!
Sadly, if you look at many of our computers... maybe a football team
would help.
John
Pretty simple - you need the football
administration buildings to have
the shiny new computers and labs.
As anyone would realize if they took a second to look at the record
of football powerhouses such as MIT and Caltech...
2:54 p.m.
New subject: Sports!
On 20 Dec 2010 at 14:42, John A. Dundas III wrote:
We proudly boast we're "undefeated since
1993". [Actually haven't
fielded a team since then.] But also, a season in 1944 when the team
was not only undefeated, but unscored upon!
Sadly, if you look at many of our computers... maybe a football team
would help.
Reminds me of the old Second City routine "Football Comes to the
University of Chicago".
--Chuck
8:18 p.m.
New subject: Sports!
From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 2:54 PM
On 20 Dec 2010 at 14:42, John A. Dundas III wrote:
> We proudly boast we're "undefeated since
1993". [Actually haven't
> fielded a team since then.] But also, a season in 1944 when the team
> was not only undefeated, but unscored upon!
> Sadly, if you look at many of our computers...
maybe a football team
> would help.
Reminds me of the old Second City routine
"Football Comes to the
University of Chicago".
I was still a grad student at UChicago when they brought back the Maroons.
The team had been disbanded in 1939 after some losing seasons, and 40 years
later it came back by alumni and student demand.
It was funny. In the 1920s, "the Monsters of the Midway"[1] joined with
the Wildcats of Northwestern University in inviting a group of public
universities to join into a football conference, which was called "The
Big Ten". In 1939, Michigan State was invited to replace Chicago in the
Big 10; in 1979, Chicago asked Michigan State, one of the powerhouse
teams of the day, to step aside for their return. The request was turned
down.
Second City is simply riffing on a real incident.
[1] The Midway Plaisance was created as part of the grounds of the 1893
Columbian Exposition. The University of Chicago's campus borders the
Midway (as it is called locally) on both sides of the boulevard for
several blocks.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.PDPplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
8:30 p.m.
New subject: Sports!
On 20 Dec 2010 at 20:18, Rich Alderson wrote:
Second City is simply riffing on a real incident.
The Second City routine is circa 1960. So manybe not.
[1] The Midway Plaisance was created as part of the
grounds of the
1893
Columbian Exposition. The University of Chicago's campus borders
the Midway (as it is called locally) on both sides of the
boulevard for several blocks.
Did a couple of years at IIT (35th and S. State) back when the
stockyards were still in operation. I can still smell the spring
thaw...
--Chuck
4:32 p.m.
New subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association.
While one can distinguish between sports and athletics and exercise,
let's keep in mind Alan Turing's interest in running (e.g.
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Miscellaneous/Turing/
Running.html).
I get lots of exercise through running and cycling, and have done so
consistently for the past 30+ years (while I have in the distant past
participated in competition and 'organised' events, they are not really
my thing). So I'm of the mind that both body and brain cells work best
when they get some exercise; and as Turing suggests, physical exercise
can help keep the brain sane. Getting some exercise after sitting on
one's ass staring at a monitor for hours on end, or hunched over a
workbench of hardware, while working on a 'brain' problem - can be very
beneficial to the brain and solving those problems.
At the same time, I have no interest in professional, popular or
mainstream sports.
So while we're dissing the pointlessness of physical games, how about
the pointlessness of computer games .. (or is that likely to start a
flame war here)?
4:46 p.m.
New subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association.
On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:32, Brent Hilpert wrote:
So while we're dissing the pointlessness of
physical games, how about
the pointlessness of computer games .. (or is that likely to start a
flame war here)?
No, I think they serve a purpose. Where is the military going to get
skilled drone pilots from, otherwise?
--Chuck
5:41 p.m.
New subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association.
On 2010 Dec 20, at 4:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:32, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Yes, but one can say the same thing about football and foot soldiers.
So while we're dissing the pointlessness of
physical games, how about
the pointlessness of computer games .. (or is that likely to start a
flame war here)?
No, I think they serve a purpose. Where is the military going to get
skilled drone pilots from, otherwise?
21 Dec
21 Dec
11:23 a.m.
New subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association.
While one can distinguish between sports and athletics and exercise,
let's keep in mind Alan Turing's interest in running (e.g.
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Miscellaneous/Turing/
Running.html).
Yes, he is the exception, a great mind who did do exercise...
I get lots of exercise through running and cycling, and have done so
I am reminded of Winston Churchill's statement : 'I get all the exercise
I need acting as a pall bearer for my friends who run and do exercise' :-)
consistently for the past 30+ years (while I have in
the distant past
participated in competition and 'organised' events, they are not really
my thing). So I'm of the mind that both body and brain cells work best
when they get some exercise; and as Turing suggests, physical exercise
I am sure this is a personal thing becuase I am of the opposite opinion.
I am the sort of person who can run 100m in 10 minutes, and who thinks
the best thing to do with a bicycle is to multiply it by 5*10^-7 [1]. A
quick look at the picture of me on the recent HPCC conference page
(linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am
not the wort of person to go running...
But if it works for tyou, I am not going to comment further...
[1] Do I really have to explain that on _this_ list?
[2] Actually on-topic. The picture shows me surrounded by bits of an
HP9836CU computer. It's not too clear from the photo, but I am holding
the brightness control assmebly, at the time I was explainign how I'd
dosmantled the pot to de-seize and then made a brass collar to fit the
knob so it souldn't slip again (and yes, I did mill a flat on the spindle).
can help keep the brain sane. Getting some exercise
after sitting on
one's ass staring at a monitor for hours on end, or hunched over a
workbench of hardware, while working on a 'brain' problem - can be very
beneficial to the brain and solving those problems.
I find soloving some other problem works for me. If I am stuck on sorting
out an electrronic fault, I will go and do some metal turning to fix
another part of the machine (or another machine), or something like that.
So while we're dissing the pointlessness of
physical games, how about
the pointlessness of computer games .. (or is that likely to start a
flame war here)?
Well, FWIW...
I have no interest at all in arcade/action games, what we used to call
'blast the b*st*rds' I playued Doom once on a friend's machine about 15
years ago, I didn't enjoy it much.
I do like some text adventures, becuase I like solving puzzles (just
about all puzzles). But I've not played one for years. Probably still a
waste of time, though. But then isn't fixing classic computers really a
waste of time? Or for that matter isn't that lmost the defintion of a hobby?
No, the only computer 'game' I enjoy is called 'programming' :-)
-tony
1:45 p.m.
New subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association.
At 01:23 PM 12/21/2010, Tony Duell wrote:
A quick look at the picture of me on the recent HPCC
conference page
(linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am
not the wort of person to go running...
Hmm. Your shirt is untucked in some places, tucked in others.
- John
21 Dec
21 Dec
2:38 p.m.
New subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association.
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Hash: SHA1
On 12/21/2010 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
[snip[
A quick look at the picture of me on the recent HPCC
conference page
(linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am
not the wort of person to go running...
Okay, the caption of the second picture is: "Tony Duell described the
HP9836CU Desktop Computer; he took it apart, displayed circuit diagrams
(on the wall in the background) and showed and described each component
part."
Looking at that pile of parts begs the question: Why doesn't the
caption include the phrase "and put it back together again?"
Just wondering...
Barry
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22 Dec
22 Dec
11:37 a.m.
New subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association.
A quick look
at the picture of me on the recent HPCC conference page
(linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am
not the wort of person to go running...
Okay, the caption of the second picture is: "Tony Duell described the
HP9836CU Desktop Computer; he took it apart, displayed circuit diagrams
(on the wall in the background) and showed and described each component
part."
Looking at that pile of parts begs the question: Why doesn't the
caption include the phrase "and put it back together again?"
20 Dec
20 Dec
12:32 p.m.
New subject: Sports! (was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Sports! (was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware
listing)
On 20 Dec 2010 at 11:47, Josh Dersch wrote:
Quite a few kids are getting badly hurt and are dying in Highschool football
these days, its not a College and pro level thing anymore.
Pro football isn't 100% paid for by fans anyway, how many teams extort city
money (taxes) to get new stadiums built or they will leave for another city
(Cleveland went through this when the Browns left to become the Ravens).
Personally, I could argue that the money spent
making "Star Trek"
movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but
I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I
certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like
ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.)
I don't care what professional sports teams spend on tossing a ball
around and pretending that it means something Important. That's
capitalism and their purpose is to make money. Fine--godspeed to
them.
My gripe is with a public university spending outrageous amounts of
time and money on varsity-level competitive sports benefits no one.
The UofO boasts a football coach with a 7-figure guaranteed annual
salary; hundreds of millions over the last decade or so in
construction alone.
And the players get tuition--nothing more, since they're "amateurs"
by NCAA convention. If they incur injuries that will cripple them
for life, that's their lookout.
Heck, it's been going on for a long time, I know. After all, I'm an
old "Boilermaker"...
--Chuck
1:29 p.m.
What's the problem with sports? Everyone is good at something and not good
AS I have said many times I feel that people should be able to spend
their time doing whatever they want provided that doesn't have an adverse
affect on people not involved with the activity. So, for example, if 22
people want to get together and kick an inflated sphere around a bit of
grass, that's their business. Just don't expect me to want to take part.
Similarly if I want to get together with some friends and restore an old
computer, that's our businsess. I don't expect others to show any
interest or take part. Just to let us get on with what we enjoy.
at many other things, if you can throw a football but
cannot do engineering
work then go play sports. You can argue about how society values
OK, and what about those who if they try to kick a ball will probably get
it within +/- 1 radian of where they want it to go. On the otehr hand,
said people can take one glance at a schemaic and figure out how to
improve it. Shouldn't they alos be abnle to get a job doing what they can
do best?
professions, but I can't see why people cannot do
what they are good at and
make a living at it whatever it is. Ever think people want to be sports
Preciesily. Now, I don't know what it's like in other countries, but from
what I can see there are simply _no_ engineering or scientific jobs in
the UK now. I have pelnty of friends with degrees (or higher) in such
subjects, and preceisely _one_ is doing what he really should be doing.
And taht does bother me.
stars because every other profession has no job
security and pays shit? I
think kids going into engineering are stupid, they cannot make a living at
it in the US same with programming and quite a few other brainy jobs. At one
I think that's my main moan too. This worries me, it wories me a lot.
point in our history engineers, programmers, doctors
and lawyers all pretty
much made the same money and had the same respect, which of those 4 make the
money now?
So a kid died from a baseball, big deal. Kids die every year from being
kids, always has been this way. If concussions were not that big of a
problem we would probably know less about how the brain works then we know
now. If all you teach kids is to never do anything they might get hurt
doing, you might as well kiss off any human progress from now on. Some
I would agree with that too. Accidents and injurier are a part of life,
alas. And although I am careful, I would not be suprised if I die from
electrocution. After all, I work with dangerous voltages just about every
day.
But my problem is that school physics and chemistry are so dombed down
(for 'safety reasons'). Many of the things I did at school would now me
totally illegal. You don't get to use 400V PSUs any more (I did). Or
evacuate home-made devices (I did). Or use a soldering iron . Or sharp
tools. Or just about any chemicals. And yet youforce kids into an
acrtivity taht can cause death (sports), even though they have no interst
in it and can see no benefit from in.
things that are unknown can be risky. Marie Sklodowska
Curie died from
complications of radiation, but her work on radioactivity advanced human
kind quite a bit. Its a good thing Columbus discovered America because his
calculations on the route to India were so far off that he would have died
without hitting land that he didn't know existed (screwing up has benefits
as well).
Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying
baseball (or any other similar sport).
-tony
7:20 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing
Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying
baseball (or any other similar sport).
-tony
Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get hurt
and have the cash and/or insurance to get some great cutting edge treatment
(and research) that eventually trickles down to everyone. If there is a need
and money to be made somebody will figure out why something gets damaged,
how to prevent it, and how to fix it so you can go back and break something
else. I guess sports and war provide enough information about head injuries
for engineers to design helmets worn by bike riders (for example) so they
can get to work and be productive without smashing their brains if they fall
off the bike.
21 Dec
21 Dec
11:27 a.m.
Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying
baseball (or any other similar sport).
-tony
Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get hurt and have the cash and/or insurance to get some great
cutting edge treatment
(and research) that eventually trickles down to everyone. If there is a need
and money to be made somebody will figure out why something gets damaged,
how to prevent it, and how to fix it so you can go back and break something
else. I guess sports and war provide enough information about head injuries
for engineers to design helmets worn by bike riders (for example) so they
can get to work and be productive without smashing their brains if they fall
off the bike.
On the other hand, a risk of injoury for cyclists might encourage the
irresposible ones to ride more sensibly and not be a risk to pedestrians
like me....
-tony
12:16 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing
Ah, so sports lead to cures for injuries that you wouldn't get if you
didn't take part in sports. I can think of a much simpler way to avoid
such injuries, which is, of course, the method I use.
Yea like nobody ever pulled a muscle, broke a leg, dislocated a shoulder,
got a concussion outside of sports. People have been known to get major
injuries just getting out of the bathtub (waiting on your reply about how
you don't wash either).
Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying
baseball (or any other similar sport).
-tony
Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get
hurt
22 Dec
22 Dec
11:05 a.m.
Perhps you
could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying
baseball (or any other similar sport).
-tony
Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get
hurt
19 Dec
19 Dec
2:25 p.m.
On 19 Dec 2010 at 15:53, Dave McGuire wrote:
Same here. "Playing ball" was fun when I
was about five years old.
After that, well, not so much.
Grown men and women playing children's games for big bucks.
I'm surprised that there isn't a professional hop-scotch franchise.
--Chuck
20 Dec
20 Dec
1:15 p.m.
How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as
a society,=20
outgrow the whole "sports" thing?
=20
Far too many years, that's alL I can say :=3D-( I am convicned such things= cause brain damage.
This is not in dispute. There's been a lot of media coverage here recentl=
y about (in particular) football players and concussions. And just two week= FWIW, I have
never taken part in any sporting activity or anything=20
related. I have never watched any sporting activity or anything related.=20=
And I never intend to do either.
Same here. "Playing ball" was fun when I was about five years old. After=
that, well, not so much. 
17 Dec
17 Dec
9 p.m.
New subject: OT UofO (was Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)
UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been
suggested that it
be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was
finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now,
they're breaking ground on a football administration building.
Twenty five years ago, I actually earned a couple of degrees in Computer
Science from the UofO (and I never learned any football while I was there).
Vince
9:51 p.m.
New subject: OT UofO (was Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)
On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:00, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
Twenty five years ago, I actually earned a couple of
degrees in
Computer Science from the UofO (and I never learned any football while
I was there).
I don't doubt the UofO has a Computer Science degree program, but
I've lived here for 20 years and would consider it to be a well-kept
secret.
--Chuck
18 Dec
18 Dec
11:10 a.m.
On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote:
Ths book dates fro 1975 (2nd edition, I think the first edition was
1969). I gues the university may have changed since then
It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher
is Addison-Wesley, and the
author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon.
That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines
are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town).
UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it
be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was
finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Isn't that a contradiction in terms?
they're breaking ground on a football
administration building.
-tony
2:08 p.m.
On 2010 Dec 17, at 2:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote:
This is the same book I mentioned for use of the slashed oh in listings
(I acquired it in 1979 for a university course). Sample size of only 3,
but apparently it got around.
It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher
is Addison-Wesley, and the
author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon.
That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines
are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town).
16 Dec
16 Dec
2:20 p.m.
On Thursday (12/16/2010 at 08:28PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote:
FWIW, I've just pulled a book off my bookshelf. 'Assembler Language
Programmign, The IBM System/360 and 370', 2nd edition 1975.
It says :
'Note that the letter O (Oh) is written as 0 to distinguish it clearly
from the digit O (sero). We follow this convention in the description of
any statement or card that is fed to the computer'
So in that book (and presumably in other related manuals/documentation),
the letter gets the slash.
And I have a model 33 teletype here, with some provenance claiming an
IBM lineage, that has a slashed-oh between the I and the P keys and an
unslashed-zero next to the 9 key.
Pressing the slashed-oh, sends 0x4F and pressing the unslashed-zero
sends 0x30... and conversely, it prints an unslashed-zero when 0x30 is
sent to it and it prints a slashed-oh when 0x4F is sent to it...
--
Chris Elmquist
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:34 p.m.
And I have a model 33 teletype here, with some
provenance claiming an
IBM lineage, that has a slashed-oh between the I and the P keys and an
unslashed-zero next to the 9 key.
Pressing the slashed-oh, sends 0x4F and pressing the unslashed-zero
sends 0x30... and conversely, it prints an unslashed-zero when 0x30 is
sent to it and it prints a slashed-oh when 0x4F is sent to it...
Interesting. I did have a quick look in the Model 33 parts book when this
thread started, but I didn't spot a type cylinder that had the chracters
that way round. Probasbly I didn't look caefully enough.
I think I read somhere that originally the zero, as the less used
character in normal text, was the one that was slashed. But it was the
'less used' part that was carried over to computing, and since then
digits necame more commopn than text (at lrast in the early days ...), it
was then the letter that got the slash.. I am not sure I entriely believe
this, though...
-tony
16 Dec
16 Dec
2:33 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Also found out that my Micropad was related to the Quest Automation Datapad,
and the Datapad was used against DG Nova machines - was there any history of
DG hardware using slashed "ohs" and unslashed zeros?
cheers
Jules
I'm pretty
sure the Micropad OCR gadget (circa 1980) that I once had required
slashing of the letter 'o', with the unslashed version interpreted as a zero.
(and to comment on another thread, I think the 286 Compaq luggable that I had
for a while had a dot in the middle of the zero rather than a slash - I'm not
sure if that was a standard feature or something oddball about my machine)
FWIW, I've just pulled a book off my bookshelf. 'Assembler Language
Programmign, The IBM System/360 and 370', 2nd edition 1975.
It says :
'Note that the letter O (Oh) is written as 0 to distinguish it clearly
from the digit O (sero). We follow this convention in the description of
any statement or card that is fed to the computer' 
2:52 p.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described as an upside down Q
for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer
listings
from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some
serious digging in magazines to find who was
pushing this as a standard. They end up
looking like misformed 8's.
It does terrible things to OCR.
3:43 p.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
On 16 Dec 2010 at 14:52, Al Kossow wrote:
There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly
be described as
an upside down Q for a slashed O. The only example I know of where
someone used this are in line printer listings from SDS in the late
60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to find who
was pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed
8's.
It does terrible things to OCR.
I may even have a few old listings with the "0" hand-adjusted in this
manner for publication.
I think I still might have an old CDC coding form that has "0 = zero
and slashed O = oh" pre-printed on it. I'll have to dig some.
None of this compares with the extreme measure that CDC embarked on
in the late 60's and early 70's--use of OCR-A for all correspondence.
Those ugly, ugly characters--they were on all of the typewriters,
regardless of vendor. Was it square = zero and diamond = oh? I
don't remember, except for hating the blasted font, except for
realizing that there were slight differences in the font between, say
Olivetti and Remington.
OCR-B was much more readable.
--Chuck
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:12 a.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
As some of you may know, Yahoo is flopping. And much of the lists of the
world are on yahoo servers.
This is a talk I had on HP Equimpent list, that MAY bring nice ideas to
some of you. I think is a smart idea that could be implemented
(unfortunately I know nothing about C programming, so I cannot bring it to
light alone) and it would be good, so here it is.
I'm sorry for the little offtopic, but if you think well you will
understand that it MAY be a nice standard to the future of all lists,
incluiding this one.
---8<---Cut here---8<---
I thought something may have happened. I have used
AltaVista for many
years, resisting google and the others - about two months >ago it started
redirecting to some yahoo site, which was not a good sign.
You're realizing how stupid is one of the latest buzzwords - "cloud
computing" - is, and how dangerous is to have your data not in your domains
(and backed-up well).
I still think these lists should run in private servers. Everyone though
of Yahoo as a reliable company, that "would just never dies". This is
another nail on the coffin. Everything can happen - AND HAPPENS - with a
company like yahoo.
I still think of a distribuited mailist system. Imagine:
- servers scattered around the world, with copies of the list(s)
- It would distribute the mail to the nearest list members
- Servers could automatically enter or exit the network. When it entered
the network, it would rsync all containt and take a "slice" of the members
to distribute the messages. Every server would ping all the net from time to
time. 12 hours out the net? It would be marked as "missing" and other server
(or servers) would share the load and redistribute the messages to the
affected list members
It would take a global thermonuclear war to kill everything. And it
would be difficult to happen.
Working this way, any dude could have a "reflector" of the list traffic.
Since we're talking plain text here, the packet sharing between the
"reflectors" would be light and easy on the networks. Any user could say "I
can share content here" and have a machine dedicated to help. Also, full
plaintext of lists would be easier to extract and distribute. And of course,
backup :)
Developers, think about that. Maybe a new list standard could born from
this talk.
Greetings from Brazil
Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
8:02 a.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
At 7:12 AM -0200 12/17/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
As some of you may know, Yahoo is flopping. And
much of the lists
of the world are on yahoo servers.
Oh, not a good thought... :-( My main lists these days (all
Photography related) are hosted on Yahoo servers. :-(
I still think these lists should run in private
servers. Everyone
though of Yahoo as a reliable company, that "would just never dies".
This is another nail on the coffin. Everything can happen - AND
HAPPENS - with a company like yahoo.
This is the way it used to be, there are reasons why almost all
lists, are now hosted on Yahoo (how many besides this one are hosted
elsewhere). I can think of one other list I'm still on that is
hosted by someone other than Yahoo, and it has been dead for about 2
months now (I forget how long it was dead the last time).
I've personally resisted the trend towards web-based BBS's, but there
are five of those I have accounts on, as they're the only way to
exchange data on those subjects. Personally I prefer email lists,
and consider them the most efficient means of exchanging information.
My hope is that if Yahoo finishes crumbling, they'll sell off their
mail lists to another company. This is how they got them in the
first place. Remember it used to be "One List". One of the Yahoo
lists I'm on started out on Fidonet!
You now have me wondering if I shouldn't look into a hardware upgrade
capable of running mail lists. I have the network capacity, just not
the hardware capacity. Honestly though I have no desire to provide
such a service.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
9:33 a.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
Zane H. Healy wrote:
This is the way it used to be, there are reasons why
almost all lists,
are now hosted on Yahoo (how many besides this one are hosted
elsewhere). I can think of one other list I'm still on that is hosted
by someone other than Yahoo, and it has been dead for about 2 months
now (I forget how long it was dead the last time).
I subscribe to one other list which I am confident is not on Yahoo. It
is probably hosted by East Carolina University. I have been lurking
for about 10 years and been able to re-subscribe as my e-mail address
changed. It is active on only about half of the days, often in a flurry
when a specific topic is widely discussed.
The primary purpose seems to be the modification of the rules for the
current CE (aka the Gregorian) Calendar. The most important point
I learned is that there is a very slow drift in the alignment of the CE
Calendar with the Spring Equinox of approximately one day in 1600
years, i.e. around 3600 CE, the Spring Equinox will occur, on average,
one day earlier in the year than at present, all others things being equal.
The suggestion to modify the rules for the CE Calendar is to drop the
Leap Year for years divisible by 2000. However, long term predictions
also suggest that by 10,000 CE, that modification will be totally
inadequate.
99.999999999999999999999% of everyone else I have discussed this
with point out that we will all be dead by 2100 CE, let alone 3600 CE
or 4000 CE. So let them take care of the situation when it arrives. PLUS,
these predictions are so likely to change that there is really no point in
attempting to develop a solution for at least another 1000 years until
there is more data available - or when no solution is needed in any case.
Jerome Fine
2:05 p.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
You now have me wondering if I shouldn't look into
a hardware upgrade
capable of running mail lists. I have the network capacity, just not the
hardware capacity. Honestly though I have no desire to provide such a
service.
If things worked the way I suggested, you could add/subtract resources
to the "cloud" anytime you wanted :) And with distribuited processing,
hardware/network requirements would be waaaaaaaaay lower.
19 Dec
19 Dec
7:15 a.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
On 12/17/2010 11:02 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 7:12 AM -0200 12/17/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas
wrote:
Is it dead from lack of postings, or lack of
connectivity/hardware/bandwidth/etc. Maybe I'm a bit thick, but it's not
clear (to me) what the exact issue is and if it's "worth" moving to a
new hosting site.
If the latter, and it wasn't a "large" list, I'd be happy to host it on
one of my servers... I don't have access to a lot of bandwidth, so it
wouldn't be insanely fast, but it would be stable.
As some of you may know, Yahoo is flopping. And
much of the lists of
the world are on yahoo servers.
Oh, not a good thought... :-( My main lists these days (all Photography
related) are hosted on Yahoo servers. :-(
I still think these lists should run in private
servers. Everyone
though of Yahoo as a reliable company, that "would just never dies".
This is another nail on the coffin. Everything can happen - AND
HAPPENS - with a company like yahoo.
This is the way it used to be, there are reasons why almost all lists,
are now hosted on Yahoo (how many besides this one are hosted
elsewhere). I can think of one other list I'm still on that is hosted by
someone other than Yahoo, and it has been dead for about 2 months now (I
forget how long it was dead the last time). I've personally resisted the trend towards
web-based BBS's, but there
are five of those I have accounts on, as they're the only way to
exchange data on those subjects. Personally I prefer email lists, and
consider them the most efficient means of exchanging information.
As do I.
My hope is that if Yahoo finishes crumbling,
they'll sell off their mail
lists to another company. This is how they got them in the first place.
Remember it used to be "One List". One of the Yahoo lists I'm on started
out on Fidonet!
I was never on Fidonet, but with the way the current interwebs is going
(spam, popups, etc.) I've been contemplating what it would take to set
up a new Fidonet (or at least Fidonet-like) system - I would happily
host a node on something like that.
You now have me wondering if I shouldn't look into
a hardware upgrade
capable of running mail lists. I have the network capacity, just not the
hardware capacity. Honestly though I have no desire to provide such a
service.
What type of scope are you thinking -- a few lists like this, or
replicating Yahoo's scale? I host a classic computing related list[1] on
my personal DSL line - about 200 subscribers, it can get fairly active
at times (20-30 messages per day) -- but I also host 3 or 4 email
domains with 10+ users each (including webmail) and I can still play WoW
without (too many) hiccups[2].
[1] A list dedicated to Kyocera 80c85 based laptops - Tandy Model
100/102/200's / NEC 8200/8300's / Olivetti M10 / etc.
[2] Is hiccough no longer a word? Spellcheck doesn't like it... ;-)
The list is hosted on a 2.4GHz P4 with 512Meg RAM, and it hosts all the
email/web/DNS/logging/etc. necessary for the domains I host, and doesn't
break a sweat. I doubt it *could* as I only have 3Mbit down and 512Kbit
up; the network would get hosed long before the hardware would be stressed.
Depending on the scope of what you want to offer (archives, etc.) I
would think that you could host a great many lists on modest hardware if
you have the bandwidth available... but that's just me.
It would be interesting to see the ratio of resources that Yahoo
dedicated to its lists compared to all of its other services (flickr,
websearch, etc.).
Laterz!
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
7:32 a.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
If the latter, and it wasn't a "large"
list, I'd be happy to host it on
one of my servers... I don't have access to a lot of bandwidth, so it
wouldn't be insanely fast, but it would be stable.
My eternal question is: Can't it be shared? Can't I build a server and
let you use my bandwidth? (as soon as I have my new ADSL2 link turned on,
I'll have 16MB up / 2MB down)
As do I.
As do most of people, incluiding I.
I was never on Fidonet, but with the way the current
interwebs is going
(spam, popups, etc.) I've been contemplating what it would take to set up
a new Fidonet (or at least Fidonet-like) system - I would happily host a
node on something like that.
I was a node and it was nice. It happened well before the 'net in
Brazil, so we shared the interstate/intercountry calls between us sysops and
everything worked fine.
It would be interesting to see the ratio of resources
that Yahoo dedicated
to its lists compared to all of its other services (flickr, websearch,
etc.).
I could order a Sun Netra 5 running solaris, with tons of memory and
some HDs, and make it join the party. Of course, if the load can be shared.
8:49 a.m.
New subject: Ebay: Apple Lisa w/ Twiggys
FYI,
Not mine, (I wish), another high value classiccmp on ebay:
Item Number: 290511644520
9:46 a.m.
New subject: Apple Lisa w/ Twiggys
Far out! I wish my Lisas 2s were Lisa 1s. It would be nice to get rid of
the mortgage!
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Lee" <mikelee at tdh.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 5:49 AM
Subject: Ebay: Apple Lisa w/ Twiggys
FYI,
Not mine, (I wish), another high value classiccmp on ebay:
Item Number: 290511644520
3:40 p.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
On 12/19/10 10:15 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote:
>> I still think these lists should run in
private servers. Everyone
>> though of Yahoo as a reliable company, that "would just never dies".
>> This is another nail on the coffin. Everything can happen - AND
>> HAPPENS - with a company like yahoo.
>
> This is the way it used to be, there are reasons why almost all lists,
> are now hosted on Yahoo (how many besides this one are hosted
> elsewhere). I can think of one other list I'm still on that is hosted by
> someone other than Yahoo, and it has been dead for about 2 months now (I
> forget how long it was dead the last time).
The reason why many (by no means "all" or "almost all") lists are
hosted by commercial services like Yahoo is that people (misguided
people) seem to think they'll be more stable or better protected from
disappearing. Nothing could be further from the truth...in fact, the
opposite tends to be true. I myself host well over a dozen mailing
lists on my network, some with hundreds of recipients, and even though I
generally take a pretty lackadaisical view of those lists, they've been
in continuous operation for over fifteen years. If I can do it, anyone can.
Corporations? *spit* The suits will do it as long as they think it
makes them money. The second it doesn't, it disappears. Period. It
has happened to countless lists I've been on over the years. I don't
trust anything being run on resources not controlled by someone who
CARES about it for more than just profit.
Depending on the scope of what you want to offer
(archives, etc.) I
would think that you could host a great many lists on modest hardware if
you have the bandwidth available... but that's just me.
I generally don't use hardware that'd be called "modest", but the
resource utilization represented by the lists I host is minimal. It
really doesn't take much at all to handle a mailing list.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
20 Dec
20 Dec
6:36 a.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
I guess I haven't been paying attention to news at Yahoo.
They've made noises suggesting they'll eliminate listserves?
There are many small (1-3 person) businesses whose primary
email address is at a free email service like Hotmail or Yahoo.
When something goes wrong, they are surprised to find "there's
no there there" when they look for tech support. I've also
seen small businesses who did have their own domain and reasonable
email service, but who still used a free email account for some
small yet business-critical function. Same thing.
If you could download a backup copy of what's on the listserve,
it might be a different story.
I even backup my Gmail on a roughly quarterly basis.
- John
17 Dec
17 Dec
11:46 a.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
From: Alexandre Souza - Listas
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 1:13 AM
I still think of a distribuited mailist system.
Imagine:
- servers scattered around the world, with copies of the list(s)
- It would distribute the mail to the nearest list members
- Servers could automatically enter or exit the network. When it entered
the network, it would rsync all containt and take a "slice" of the members
to distribute the messages. Every server would ping all the net from time to
time. 12 hours out the net? It would be marked as "missing" and other server
(or servers) would share the load and redistribute the messages to the
affected list members
It would take a global thermonuclear war to kill
everything. And it
would be difficult to happen.
Working this way, any dude could have a
"reflector" of the list traffic.
Since we're talking plain text here, the packet sharing between the
"reflectors" would be light and easy on the networks. Any user could say
"I
can share content here" and have a machine dedicated to help. Also, full
plaintext of lists would be easier to extract and distribute. And of course,
backup :)
Developers, think about that. Maybe a new list
standard could born from
this talk.
Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet?
Some of the features listed don't exist in nntp (NetNews Transport Protocol),
but that's what the RFC process is for: Adding private security (accounts
and such), removing the CANCEL message form, that kind of thing, could all
be done if people want to.
There are any number of privately managed netnews hierarchies these days,
not just the Big 8(TM) and alt.*, so one or a few more that used a more
restrictive nntp implementation will be down in the noise, just like private
mailing lists are.
That's my 2d 'orth.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.PDPplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
1:23 p.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
On Friday 17 December 2010, William Donzelli wrote:
I hear that it's useful for pirating movies.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Hmm. Let me
think. Isn't this called Usenet?
Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s?
1:35 p.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
In article <AANLkTimX-aXwcFx0DJFFBkMb5mhqEwz40z4TuNOfJZge at mail.gmail.com>,
William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
Its still useful for programming discussions, but for all the
chit-chat type stuff its pretty much been replaced by the balkanized
world of inferior web forums. The distributed control nature of
usenet also lent itself to excessive abuse by spammers and the usenet
community never really came up with a useful way of dealing with that.
Many people retreated to mailing lists as a result of the spam
problem.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Hmm. Let me
think. Isn't this called Usenet?
Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? 
2:20 p.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 1:35 PM
To: cctalk
Subject: Re: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
In article <AANLkTimX-
aXwcFx0DJFFBkMb5mhqEwz40z4TuNOfJZge at mail.gmail.com>,
William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
Its still useful for programming discussions, but for all the
chit-chat type stuff its pretty much been replaced by the balkanized
world of inferior web forums. The distributed control nature of
usenet also lent itself to excessive abuse by spammers and the usenet
community never really came up with a useful way of dealing with that.
Many people retreated to mailing lists as a result of the spam
problem.
--
One of the more "amusing" hacks I saw: there were a whole load of oddly named
groups in the alt group. Someone had done an ASCII rendering of Jerry Garcia's face
such that using the NNTP command to list available newsgroups would cause it to be
reproduced in the listing. Cute - and obviously someone who had waaaay too much time on
his hands. -- Ian
Hmm. Let
me think. Isn't this called Usenet?
Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s?
18 Dec
18 Dec
8:47 a.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com> wrote:
One of the more "amusing" hacks I saw: there
were a whole load of oddly named groups in the alt group. ?Someone had done an ASCII
rendering of Jerry Garcia's face
In a similar vein, there were the (IIRC) "alt.att.you.will.*" groups.
That string was followed by a series of *s which, over 30 or so group
names, made out the AT&T "Death Star" :)
21 Dec
21 Dec
5:08 p.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
Richard wrote:
In article William Donzelli writes:
Its still useful for programming discussions, but for all the
chit-chat type stuff its pretty much been replaced by the balkanized
world of inferior web forums. The distributed control nature of
usenet also lent itself to excessive abuse by spammers and the usenet
community never really came up with a useful way of dealing with that.
Many people retreated to mailing lists as a result of the spam
problem.
While novice Usenet users will still be caught when they provide their
Return Address in the
clear, most experienced Usenet users post with their Return Address in a
manner which
confuses only the least capable e-mail harvester programs. Also, one of
the Usenet sites
which I check used to have a Moderator e-mail address available which
would obliterate
the Return Address by changing it to <spamtrap at crayne.org>. After
crayne became
unavailable, that stopped for a short time, but is now replaced by
something a bit more
complicated. So the problem of spammers really is not that bad for
experienced Usenet
users at this point.
By the way, other than the current problem of subscribing to cctalk (has
it been fixed?),
what prevents an old subscriber from harvesting our e-mail addresses?
The fact that I
send my Return Address in the clear seems to suggest that either there
are too few
members of this list to make a difference or that Jay has been able to
prevent spammers
Hmm. Let
me think. Isn't this called Usenet?
Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s?
from obtaining our e-mail addresses. I suspect the
former since I seem
to remember
seeing some of my posts to cctalk on google. By the way, just how many
members of
cctalk are there at this point?
I also see my posts to Usenet on google, but the difficulty of
responding and the format
used makes it useless for me to participate. Which is why I add more
than "nospam"
to my e-mail address when sending a post to Usenet.
I personally monitor 5 Usenet sites (only one is an alt.* site) via a
free Usenet server which
accepts short TEXT-ONLY posts. While the traffic is not as high as it
used to be, there is
still limited help available.
Jerome Fine
17 Dec
17 Dec
2:40 p.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
William Donzelli wrote:
No, we all moved to Usenet II - didn't you get the memo? ;-)
(I'm still a regular inhabitant of a handful of usenet groups, though - some
of them do still carry a high volume of useful traffic)
cheers
Jules
Hmm. Let me
think. Isn't this called Usenet?
Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s?
4:17 p.m.
New subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists?
Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet?
Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s?
19 Sep
19 Sep
6:54 p.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote:
There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly
be described as an upside down Q
for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer
listings
from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to
find who was
pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's.
It does terrible things to OCR.
Microsoft's first attempt at OCR customer order forms used it!
Haven't seen it since.
In the 1960s, I remember a few old farts who slashed O's (to differentiate
them from zeroes!) One of the teachers that I had in 1967 used to do it.
He never liked me, because I asked a lot of weird questions.
He was one of my favorite teachers, because he could answer those weird
questions!
I assume that they are all dead now. When I began teaching in 1983, he
had recently passed, and they gave me his old desk!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
7:13 p.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
On 20 September 2012 03:02, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:
I did wonder where that came from!
I am bemused to learn that it used to be the other way round. I've
been meticulously slashing my 0s to distinguish them from Os for
nearly 30yrs, since I was a schoolkid going around to family friends'
houses to use their Sinclair ZX81s.
It really confuses the issue in Norway, where ? and ? are a *separate
letter*, totally distinct from O. (It's pronounced something like
"er"; you can find it in the name of the fairly well-known city of
Troms?.) Whereas the southern Europeans tend to think of letters with
or without accents - e or ?, o or ? - in Scandinavia, they're thought
of as letters in their own right.
I don't know what Norwegian programmers hand-wrote to distinguish O, 0
and ?! Maybe a VGA-style zero-with-a-central-dot, which doesn't seem
to have a Unicode glyph.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote:
SORRY!
I didn't even notice the old date on a message that showed up as incoming.
7:14 p.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:
Well, the O's did have slashes on them, didn't they?
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. -----------------------------------
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote:
SORRY!
I didn't even notice the old date on a message that showed up as incoming.
7:57 p.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
On 19 Sep 2012 at 18:54, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote:
> There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described
> as an upside down Q for a slashed O. The only example I know of
> where someone used this are in line printer listings from SDS in the
> late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to
> find who was pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like
> misformed 8's. It does terrible things to OCR.
Well, remember the OCR-A font? Square zero and diamond-shaped "oh"?
At some point, CDC decided that it would be great to use for office
correspondence (some manuals were even done in it). I had a
typerwriter in my office with that font and I thought it was one of
the ugliest fonts I'd ever seen. OCR-B was much, MUCH better.
Fortunately, CDC dropped the idea after a couple of years.
I probably still have a document somewhere with the "looped" ohs. I
can't recall for the life of me who used the convention.
--Chuck
20 Sep
20 Sep
3:22 a.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
ons 2012-09-19 klockan 18:54 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote:
The old swedish standard for distinguishing zero (0) was with a slash (?
which is a big ?.)
That convention clashes with the norwegian ?.
? (swedish) = ? (norwegian)
There was an attempt at establishing what can
roughly be described as an upside down Q
for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer
listings
from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to
find who was
pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's.
It does terrible things to OCR.
Microsoft's first attempt at OCR customer order forms used it!
Haven't seen it since.
In the 1960s, I remember a few old farts who slashed O's (to differentiate
them from zeroes!) One of the teachers that I had in 1967 used to do it.
He never liked me, because I asked a lot of weird questions.
He was one of my favorite teachers, because he could answer those weird
questions!
I assume that they are all dead now. When I began teaching in 1983, he
had recently passed, and they gave me his old desk!
8:12 a.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
On 20 September 2012 11:22, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:
ons 2012-09-19 klockan 18:54 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin:
I just love the deep respect and affection the Nordic countries have
for one another. ;?)
http://satwcomic.com/we-should-be-friends
http://satwcomic.com/stop-talking
http://satwcomic.com/nordics-like-fish
http://satwcomic.com/norway-in-denmark
http://satwcomic.com/language-lesson
http://satwcomic.com/nordic-brothers
And on the alphabets...
http://satwcomic.com/nothing-is-perfect
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote:
The old swedish standard for distinguishing zero (0) was with a slash (?
which is a big ?.)
That convention clashes with the norwegian ?.
? (swedish) = ? (norwegian) There was an attempt at establishing what can
roughly be described as an upside down Q
for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer
listings
from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to
find who was
pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's.
It does terrible things to OCR.
Microsoft's first attempt at OCR customer order forms used it!
Haven't seen it since.
In the 1960s, I remember a few old farts who slashed O's (to differentiate
them from zeroes!) One of the teachers that I had in 1967 used to do it.
He never liked me, because I asked a lot of weird questions.
He was one of my favorite teachers, because he could answer those weird
questions!
I assume that they are all dead now. When I began teaching in 1983, he
had recently passed, and they gave me his old desk!
21 Sep
21 Sep
3:50 a.m.
New subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing))
tor 2012-09-20 klockan 16:12 +0100 skrev Liam Proven:
On 20 September 2012 11:22, Stefan Skoglund
<stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:
What is more depressing is the chasm between danish and swedish speakers
(DAMN Anglosaxians !!)
Swedes has forsaken the language of the southern province (Denmark)
because we now listen too much to the language of that other province
(who are we kidding...)
ons 2012-09-19 klockan 18:54 -0700 skrev Fred
Cisin:
I just love the deep respect and affection the Nordic countries have
for one another. ;?)
http://satwcomic.com/we-should-be-friends
http://satwcomic.com/stop-talking
http://satwcomic.com/nordics-like-fish
http://satwcomic.com/norway-in-denmark
http://satwcomic.com/language-lesson
http://satwcomic.com/nordic-brothers
And on the alphabets...
http://satwcomic.com/nothing-is-perfect On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote:
The old swedish standard for distinguishing zero (0) was with a slash (?
which is a big ?.)
That convention clashes with the norwegian ?.
? (swedish) = ? (norwegian) There was an attempt at establishing what can
roughly be described as an upside down Q
for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer
listings
from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to
find who was
pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's.
It does terrible things to OCR.
Microsoft's first attempt at OCR customer order forms used it!
Haven't seen it since.
In the 1960s, I remember a few old farts who slashed O's (to differentiate
them from zeroes!) One of the teachers that I had in 1967 used to do it.
He never liked me, because I asked a lot of weird questions.
He was one of my favorite teachers, because he could answer those weird
questions!
I assume that they are all dead now. When I began teaching in 1983, he
had recently passed, and they gave me his old desk!
4474
days inactive
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days old
133 comments
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