22 Jun
2015
22 Jun
'15
2:06 p.m.
22 Jun
22 Jun
5:59 p.m.
ROAD TRIP!
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
23 Jun
23 Jun
9:25 a.m.
I bought the January 1975 Popular Electronics (Altair Computer issue) at the US Navy
Exchange in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mitscher_DDG35_Cuba_Jan_1975.jpg
Michael Holley
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 5:59 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
ROAD TRIP!
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:
http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mai
nframes/
Who's up for it?
B
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School
<http://ischool.uw.edu>
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org> Value
Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
9:36 a.m.
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 05:59:08PM -0700, Ian S. King wrote:
ROAD TRIP!
It is going to take a lot of bulldozers to build a road to Cuba ...
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
3:46 a.m.
I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have upgraded?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:
3:55 a.m.
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have
upgraded?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainfram…
I wonder what kind of intelligence the Soviets gained from the ex-IBM
mainframes there. At that point in time a lot of the US defense
(NORAD) was run off of the SAGE setup, which must have had some 650s
as a component, right?
9:32 a.m.
Jonathan Katz wrote:
[..]
I wonder what kind of intelligence the Soviets gained
from the ex-IBM
mainframes there. At that point in time a lot of the US defense
(NORAD) was run off of the SAGE setup, which must have had some 650s
as a component, right?
Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained any
big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.
The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
this time.
Please, please all americans, don't think that russians are stupid.
There was always a _really_ big difference between consumer and military
electronics at the times of the iron curtain in the USSR.
Don't ever think that they have something to copy to get things
(nevertheless they always copy something, but chineses are more bad..1) ).
Next thing that I really whish to get recogniced: No one can win a war
anymore, even not the americans or the NATO.
...that only since I hear that rattle of sabers again from the US and
German Government.
They have droven Putin in to a corner with that ukrainian "Revolution"
and there is nothing curious or not understandable in the sight of what he
does now.
As for IBM's claims.. maybe the cuban government can write an Invoice
for the costs of the Pigs Bay Invasion to the US government and then use
that money to pay the bill?
1)
Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX.... but, They made an VAX Chip that's
compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one
chip solution as the russian chip is. Is that a copy at all?
There are an entire row of PDP11 Microprocessors, K1801VM 1,2,3, N1806VM2 the
same as the K1801VM2 in CMOS and others, chips that in this form never
where build from DEC. Look at the MK90 here:
http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/
The MK90 is PDP11 compatible....
Regardl,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
10:09 a.m.
On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that
the Soviets gained any
big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.
The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
this time.
I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other
Warsaw-pact countries) were particularly adept at building virtual
clones of US peripherals. In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a
visit and confirmed the story.
It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a "cold war". The USSR
didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries
reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. "restored
copyright" in the US).
It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers
(e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the
works enjoyed IP protection. Doubtless, Western music got a good
hearing behind the iron curtain.
--Chuck
10:53 a.m.
I've spent a lot of time researching computer engineering in the Eastern
Bloc ... there aren't a lot of sources here in the West that really
describe well everything they did over there ... my Russian skills are
absolutely awful so most of my knowledge derives from these secondhand
summary papers that were written ... I always found it intriguing; while
they did their share of cloning Western designs, or creating a local spin
on a design from the West with some architectural modifications or
enhancements; being somewhat isolated from what was canonical over here,
they also had their share of quite unusual indigenous designs ... a few of
the papers I have read discuss experiments with hybrid analog/digital
computers, ternary logic, and the Elbrus VLIW design would have been fairly
innovative for the time ... the BESM-6 was not a complete slouch when first
introduced; even today, there are some interesting designs coming out of
the CIS, like the Multiclet CPU ... I'd love to get my hands on a developer
board but they are a little spendy ... And that's not to mention the
computer industries in Hungary (I'm sure everyone here has seen the
Hampage!); East Germany and so on.
Peripherals, I think they had a harder time with, due to manufacturing
tolerance and QC issues; maybe on this side the export controls were a bit
looser on peripherals versus CPUs ... I've also read the story about CDC
... I understand they did some peripherals business in the Eastern Bloc as
did some of the other players ... i.e. Memorex? So one is perhaps less
inclined to see indigenous peripherals, but there was a fair bit of
indigenous design in electronics, from what I understand.
Back to the thread, though, I do have to wonder how much old IBM "big iron"
is still ... or was ever there ... in Cuba ... I could see typewriters,
sure, maybe some punched-card business machines ... and of course
Guantanamo is still occupied by the USA so that doesn't count ... but
full-on computers? Most of those big IBM machines would have been luxuries
yet for a business here in the USA, at the time the Cuban Revolution had
ended ... I can't imagine too many would have made it to the island?
BTW hat tip on the Electronika MK-90 ... that's cool :O
Best,
Sean
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained
any
big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.
The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
this time.
I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other Warsaw-pact
countries) were particularly adept at building virtual clones of US
peripherals. In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a visit and
confirmed the story.
It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a "cold war". The USSR
didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries
reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. "restored copyright"
in the US).
It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers
(e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the
works enjoyed IP protection. Doubtless, Western music got a good hearing
behind the iron curtain.
--Chuck
3:05 p.m.
One way to find out!
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
I've spent a lot of time researching computer
engineering in the Eastern
Bloc ... there aren't a lot of sources here in the West that really
describe well everything they did over there ... my Russian skills are
absolutely awful so most of my knowledge derives from these secondhand
summary papers that were written ... I always found it intriguing; while
they did their share of cloning Western designs, or creating a local spin
on a design from the West with some architectural modifications or
enhancements; being somewhat isolated from what was canonical over here,
they also had their share of quite unusual indigenous designs ... a few of
the papers I have read discuss experiments with hybrid analog/digital
computers, ternary logic, and the Elbrus VLIW design would have been fairly
innovative for the time ... the BESM-6 was not a complete slouch when first
introduced; even today, there are some interesting designs coming out of
the CIS, like the Multiclet CPU ... I'd love to get my hands on a developer
board but they are a little spendy ... And that's not to mention the
computer industries in Hungary (I'm sure everyone here has seen the
Hampage!); East Germany and so on.
Peripherals, I think they had a harder time with, due to manufacturing
tolerance and QC issues; maybe on this side the export controls were a bit
looser on peripherals versus CPUs ... I've also read the story about CDC
... I understand they did some peripherals business in the Eastern Bloc as
did some of the other players ... i.e. Memorex? So one is perhaps less
inclined to see indigenous peripherals, but there was a fair bit of
indigenous design in electronics, from what I understand.
Back to the thread, though, I do have to wonder how much old IBM "big iron"
is still ... or was ever there ... in Cuba ... I could see typewriters,
sure, maybe some punched-card business machines ... and of course
Guantanamo is still occupied by the USA so that doesn't count ... but
full-on computers? Most of those big IBM machines would have been luxuries
yet for a business here in the USA, at the time the Cuban Revolution had
ended ... I can't imagine too many would have made it to the island?
BTW hat tip on the Electronika MK-90 ... that's cool :O
Best,
Sean
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained
Warsaw-pact
any
big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.
The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
this time.
I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other countries) were particularly adept at building
virtual clones of US
peripherals. In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a visit and
confirmed the story.
It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a "cold war". The USSR
didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries
reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. "restored copyright"
in the US).
It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers
(e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the
works enjoyed IP protection. Doubtless, Western music got a good hearing
behind the iron curtain.
--Chuck
10:08 p.m.
Zitat von Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>:
I've spent a lot of time researching computer
engineering in the Eastern
Bloc ...
...being somewhat isolated from what was canonical over here,
they also had their share of quite unusual indigenous designs ... a few of
the papers I have read discuss experiments with hybrid analog/digital
computers, ternary logic, and the Elbrus VLIW design would have been fairly
innovative for the time ...
I was pretty impressed, when I read through the documents back than.
It was a very nice design. "bad" thing was, it couldn't execute x86 code,
so nobody in the west touched it :(
11:08 p.m.
Oh, I want the whole computer, not just the CPU chip.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
11:59 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Yes, that's true.
There was actually no possibility to get a proper license or machines
even when you wanted to pay for that.
Intellectual properties simply haven't existed in the "real life"
behind the iron curtain and w/o to invent the hot water again, it simply
got copied.
Now we have a new single economic system and things have changed.
The NSA/GCHQ is spying out people all over the world, officially to fight
terrorism (if you belive that), but as it turns out they are always
interested in industrial espionage too and even spy out the mobile from
not only me, but the german cancelor (terrorist ehy? tought that are
"friends"..).
Think that's ok for you?
(not for me as for most people on the world, but they simplay take the
rights to do this which really pisses me of)
If yes, for sure you want to call it stupid that IBM still want's to get
payd for the old Mainframes, don't you?
Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think
that the Soviets gained any
big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.
The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
this time.
I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other
Warsaw-pact countries) were particularly adept at building virtual
clones of US peripherals. In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a
visit and confirmed the story.
It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a "cold war". The USSR
didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries
reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. "restored
copyright" in the US).
It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers
(e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the
works enjoyed IP protection. Doubtless, Western music got a good
hearing behind the iron curtain.
--Chuck
I hope we will never see times like that again..
Anyway, a german word says:
"Wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen.."
"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.."
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
5:36 p.m.
On 06/23/2015 11:59 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Think that's ok for you?
(not for me as for most people on the world, but they simplay take the
rights to do this which really pisses me of)
If yes, for sure you want to call it stupid that IBM still want's to get
payd for the old Mainframes, don't you?
No, it's not okay with me. We are entering a phase of world history
where trans-national interests pretty much subvert national and
democratic interests and simply create laws to further their own needs.
We are, in my own humble opinion, entering a brave new world. I'm not
at all sure that I like it.
--Chuck
5:06 p.m.
On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe <holm at
freibergnet.de> wrote:
1)
Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX.... but, They made an VAX Chip that's
compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one
chip solution as the russian chip is.
Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those single-chip VAX730
"clone" machines? That sounds quite cool.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
7:24 p.m.
On 2015-06-24 02:06, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
time of that chip. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe <holm
at freibergnet.de> wrote:
1)
Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX.... but, They made an VAX Chip that's
compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one
chip solution as the russian chip is.
Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those single-chip VAX730
"clone" machines? That sounds quite cool.
8:43 p.m.
On Jun 23, 2015, at 19:24, Johnny Billquist <bqt at
update.uu.se> wrote:
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had
already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730,
so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing...
Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC
had come at the time of that chip. :-)
I still want the Russian one, anyway! :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
8:58 p.m.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/N1839VZh2-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Clone-of-DEC-Micro-VA…
close but no cigar
On 6/23/2015 8:43 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
--
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the
named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized
use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited
by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.
On Jun 23,
2015, at 19:24, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had
already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730,
so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing...
Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC
had come at the time of that chip. :-)
I still want the Russian one, anyway! :)
9 p.m.
from same seller
http://www.ebay.com/itm/L1839VM1-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Military-32-bit-CPU-Cl…
bingo !
On 6/23/2015 8:58 PM, wulfman wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/N1839VZh2-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Clone-of-DEC-Micro-VA…
close but no cigar
On 6/23/2015 8:43 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
--
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the
named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized
use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited
by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.
On Jun
23, 2015, at 19:24, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had
already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730,
so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing...
Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC
had come at the time of that chip. :-)
I still want the Russian one, anyway! :)
11:45 p.m.
Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2015-06-24 02:06, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
time of that chip. :-)
Johnny
--
That wasn't the question at all Johnny.
I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones.
I have an Elektronika 60 which is something like an 11/03 clone
but it isn't a clone. It has a Q-BUS with connecteors like DECs
original but with metric pin raster. Boards are bigger and the used
chips and the schematics are totally different in most cases.S
My memory confused the VAX730 with the VAX750...
The machine is a development of it's own conforming some of the DEC Specs
so that the original Software can run on that thing (E60).
(The console SLU is a quad size board build from only TTL)
The same happened with that VAX730 Chip, it was developed from only 10
people following the DEC reference manual.
http://www.155la3.ru/k1839.htm
http://www.online-translator.com gives halfways readable results from
the translation of the web frame from russian to english.
..for PDP11 like processors:
http://www.155la3.ru/k1801.htm
I have a file with the internal Schematics (!) of the K1801VM2 processor,
a PDP11 running w/o MMU at 10Mhz. There is also a 1801VM3 with internal
MMU.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe <holm at
freibergnet.de> wrote:
1)
Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX.... but, They made an VAX Chip
that's
compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one
chip solution as the russian chip is.
Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those single-chip
VAX730 "clone" machines? That sounds quite cool.
24 Jun
24 Jun
12:35 a.m.
I just love this translation:
"*But me, naturally, anybody especially didn't ask.*"
Been there; still am ...
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:45 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
That wasn't the question at all Johnny.
I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones.
I have an Elektronika 60 which is something like an 11/03 clone
but it isn't a clone. It has a Q-BUS with connecteors like DECs
original but with metric pin raster. Boards are bigger and the used
chips and the schematics are totally different in most cases.S
My memory confused the VAX730 with the VAX750...
The machine is a development of it's own conforming some of the DEC Specs
so that the original Software can run on that thing (E60).
(The console SLU is a quad size board build from only TTL)
The same happened with that VAX730 Chip, it was developed from only 10
people following the DEC reference manual.
http://www.155la3.ru/k1839.htm
http://www.online-translator.com gives halfways readable results from
the translation of the web frame from russian to english.
..for PDP11 like processors:
http://www.155la3.ru/k1801.htm
I have a file with the internal Schematics (!) of the K1801VM2 processor,
a PDP11 running w/o MMU at 10Mhz. There is also a 1801VM3 with internal
MMU.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On 2015-06-24 02:06, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>
>>On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>>
>>1)
>>Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX.... but, They made an VAX Chip
>>that's
>>compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an
one
>>chip solution as the russian chip is.
>
>Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those
single-chip
VAX730
"clone" machines? That sounds quite cool.
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
time of that chip. :-)
Johnny
-- 
1:24 a.m.
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 08:45:13AM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote:
I have an Elektronika 60 which is something like an
11/03 clone
but it isn't a clone. It has a Q-BUS with connecteors like DECs
original but with metric pin raster. Boards are bigger and the used
chips and the schematics are totally different in most cases.S
Which model? Do you have a matching terminal?
I believe one of the 60 models was used to implement the original
tetris. It requires a special terminals, although hacked binaries that
work on VT52-compatibles are out there.
/P
12:39 p.m.
Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 08:45:13AM +0200, Holm Tiffe
wrote:
For the exact model I must take a look to the card cage first..
It has an M2 processor Board:
http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/CPU-oben.jpg
...and I have a terminal but it is't functional again jet..
Nevertheless I've played a russian Tetris on that machine, OS was
FODOS 2.something (RT11 V4.x). I've modified the SLU board to connect a
RS232 insead of the current loop und used an xterm to play with that
machine (Seyon Terminal Program).
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
I have an Elektronika 60 which is something like
an 11/03 clone
but it isn't a clone. It has a Q-BUS with connecteors like DECs
original but with metric pin raster. Boards are bigger and the used
chips and the schematics are totally different in most cases.S
Which model? Do you have a matching terminal?
I believe one of the 60 models was used to implement the original
tetris. It requires a special terminals, although hacked binaries that
work on VT52-compatibles are out there.
/P 
4:40 a.m.
On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very
aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff.
Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the
silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at
the chip at the gate level... :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian
VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
time of that chip. :-)
Johnny
--
That wasn't the question at all Johnny.
I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones.
4:48 a.m.
On 2015-06-24 13:40, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Just for people who might be amused:
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html
(And it Bob Supnik is reading this, he might be even more amused.)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Johnny Billquist wrote:
It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very
aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff.
Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the
silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at
the chip at the gate level... :-) Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian
VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
time of that chip. :-)
Johnny
--
That wasn't the question at all Johnny.
I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones. 
4:56 a.m.
I was at DEC when much of this took place .
The big concern was not so much the copying but the USSR just buying DEC
product on the open market.
They would set up a front company, sign up as an oem, pay their bills on
time and carry on shipping.
It took a while to sink in that good well behaved customers were he ones
to watch not the ones who were in trouble all the time.
The copying was much more like the space race and said a alot about what
silicon processing the USSR had or had access to.
Rod
On 24/06/2015 12:40, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very
aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff.
Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the
silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at
the chip at the gate level... :-)
Johnny
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian
VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
time of that chip. :-)
Johnny
--
That wasn't the question at all Johnny.
I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones.
5:19 a.m.
On 2015-06-24 13:56, Rod Smallwood wrote:
I was at DEC when much of this took place .
The big concern was not so much the copying but the USSR just buying DEC
product on the open market.
They would set up a front company, sign up as an oem, pay their bills on
time and carry on shipping.
It took a while to sink in that good well behaved customers were he ones
to watch not the ones who were in trouble all the time.
Oh, I know. I'm from Sweden. We had a very big scandal where 5
containers with a VAX-11/782 and peripherials or something like that was
found under strange circumstances. When the whole thing started to be
investigated suddenly no one seemed to know or own those containers. The
system was unclaimed for years, and it became a question of what to do
with it, since no one seemed to claim it. I think it was eventually
decided that since DEC made it, it was returned to them. The original
shipping destination was of course somewhere in Soviet Union. This was
in the early 80s... I'm sure someone can find the full story online
somewhere.
The stuff spy thrillers are made from... :-)
Johnny
The copying was much more like the space race and said a alot about what
silicon processing the USSR had or had access to.
Rod
On 24/06/2015 12:40, Johnny Billquist wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very
aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff.
Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the
silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at
the chip at the gate level... :-)
Johnny
Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian
VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
time of that chip. :-)
Johnny
--
That wasn't the question at all Johnny.
I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones. 
25 Jun
25 Jun
4:31 a.m.
On 24 June 2015 at 14:19, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Oh, I know. I'm from Sweden. We had a very big
scandal where 5 containers
with a VAX-11/782 and peripherials or something like that was found under
strange circumstances. When the whole thing started to be investigated
suddenly no one seemed to know or own those containers. The system was
unclaimed for years, and it became a question of what to do with it, since
no one seemed to claim it. I think it was eventually decided that since DEC
made it, it was returned to them. The original shipping destination was of
course somewhere in Soviet Union. This was in the early 80s... I'm sure
someone can find the full story online somewhere.
It's mentioned in the Datasaab article on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datasaab
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
10:49 a.m.
On 2015-06-25 13:31, Liam Proven wrote:
On 24 June 2015 at 14:19, Johnny Billquist <bqt at
update.uu.se> wrote:
Hmm. Some interesting information on that page. But anyway, no, the
smuggling story in that article is not the one I was referring to. That
story is about some Swedish computers for ATC (also usable for military
purposes obviously) which contained some American components, for which
Sweden did not have an export license, so they somehow got to the SU
without permission, which was later revealed, and was not a nice story,
since the Swedish government was involved.
Search for "containeraff?ren" in Google (unfortunately I only manage to
find Swedish texts about it, but Google translate is your friend). In
short, a private businessman in Sweden was involved a the shipping of a
VAX-11/782 and peripherials via South Africa and Sweden (maybe
Switzerland was also involved). It was caught by the Swedish customs,
and the stuff never reached the SU. I guess that sortof repaired the
damage of the previous "Saab-aff?ren" story in the eyes of the USA...
Johnny
Oh, I know. I'm from Sweden. We had a very
big scandal where 5 containers
with a VAX-11/782 and peripherials or something like that was found under
strange circumstances. When the whole thing started to be investigated
suddenly no one seemed to know or own those containers. The system was
unclaimed for years, and it became a question of what to do with it, since
no one seemed to claim it. I think it was eventually decided that since DEC
made it, it was returned to them. The original shipping destination was of
course somewhere in Soviet Union. This was in the early 80s... I'm sure
someone can find the full story online somewhere.
It's mentioned in the Datasaab article on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datasaab 
24 Jun
24 Jun
8:04 a.m.
On Wed, 24 Jun 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote:
I was at DEC when much of this took place .
The big concern was not so much the copying but the USSR just buying DEC
product on the open market.
They would set up a front company, sign up as an oem, pay their bills on time
and carry on shipping.
It took a while to sink in that good well behaved customers were he ones to
watch not the ones who were in trouble all the time.
So, where were the best customers located?
Langley, Fort Meade, 10th & PA in DC, Moscow, Leningrad?
Who were the easiest to get paid from?
Did DEC produce manuals in other languages?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12:46 p.m.
Rod Smallwood wrote:
I was at DEC when much of this took place .
The big concern was not so much the copying but the USSR just buying DEC
product on the open market.
They would set up a front company, sign up as an oem, pay their bills on
time and carry on shipping.
It took a while to sink in that good well behaved customers were he ones
to watch not the ones who were in trouble all the time.
The copying was much more like the space race and said a alot about what
silicon processing the USSR had or had access to.
Rod
1. is it really neccessary to answer on top when the previous Mail is
quoted at bottom?
2. Do you ever heard of the embargo on computing machines against the
kommunist counties?
Regards,
Holm
On 24/06/2015 12:40, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>>>Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
>>>DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
>>>much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
>>>outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
>>>come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
>>>time of that chip. :-)
>>>
>>> Johnny
>>>
>>>--
>>
>>That wasn't the question at all Johnny.
>>I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones.
>
>It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very
>aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff.
>Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the
>silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at
>the chip at the gate level... :-)
>
> Johnny
>
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
12:42 p.m.
Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Yes, that's old news.
Dec was aware that PDP11's an VAXes got copied, but it seems that the
russians not copied the cips, the build ther own machines using the
Machine description from DEC..
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Johnny Billquist wrote:
It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very
aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff.
Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the
silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at
the chip at the gate level... :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian
VAX-11/730 on a chip came,
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the
time of that chip. :-)
Johnny
--
That wasn't the question at all Johnny.
I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones.
23 Jun
23 Jun
4:24 a.m.
I don't know, but there could be some WOW stuff there. I have to admit,
the day I heard Barak Obama said the US was going to free up restrictions
with Cuba I thought about the cars....and the COMPUTERS!...UNIVAC? IBM
701? Anything could be there.
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have
upgraded?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:
http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainfram…
Who's up for it?
B
24 Jun
24 Jun
9:18 a.m.
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 06:46:30 -0400
Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have
upgraded?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainfram…
>
> Who's up for it?
For all who are considering a trip to Cuba to find vintage gear, you might want to read
this Washington Post article, published June 22:
http://flip.it/m6WcU
I wonder what the rules are regarding purchasing and shipping computers (even vintage
ones) out of Cuba? I don't think I'd want to try smuggling them out...
Lyle
--
73 AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
9:26 a.m.
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 09:18:21AM -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote:
I wonder what the rules are regarding purchasing and shipping
computers (even vintage ones) out of Cuba? I don't think I'd
want to try smuggling them out...
Not smuggling, liberating!
(the computers in question should belong to IBM anyway)
/P
12:55 p.m.
Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 09:18:21AM -0700, Lyle Bickley
wrote:
Which computers? Do you think all computers there are made/owned by IBM?
I think IBM can wait until the hell gets frozen for the payment.
It seems to me that IBM and you simply don't realize that there was an
revolution in the meantime and they don't own something there anymore.
There where tents of years with totally different economics, and
thinking that that old stuff still exists iand possivble still running
is really stupid in my eyes. There is nothing to "liberate"..
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
I wonder what the rules are regarding purchasing and shipping
computers (even vintage ones) out of Cuba? I don't think I'd
want to try smuggling them out...
Not smuggling, liberating!
(the computers in question should belong to IBM anyway)
/P
2:20 p.m.
Sorry Holm, didn't mean to grind your gears.
/P
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 09:55:14PM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Which computers? Do you think all computers there are
made/owned by IBM?
I think IBM can wait until the hell gets frozen for the payment.
It seems to me that IBM and you simply don't realize that there was an
revolution in the meantime and they don't own something there anymore.
There where tents of years with totally different economics, and
thinking that that old stuff still exists iand possivble still running
is really stupid in my eyes. There is nothing to "liberate"..
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
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