29 Jan
2015
29 Jan
'15
10:55 a.m.
Does anyone know if at any time in the past thirty years if the material
used to make capstans has changed? I.E. can one be more confident of tape
drives manufactured after some era to have non-goo capstan or is it that all
tape drives (including ones manufactured now are ticking time bombs?
Also how do you guys check capstans? Just stick long Q-tip in there? Thanks.
-Ali
29 Jan
29 Jan
11:16 a.m.
You can replace those with organic polymer caps, then leaking goo will never happen.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 29, 2015, at 1:55 PM, "Ali"
<cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
Does anyone know if at any time in the past thirty years if the material
used to make capstans has changed? I.E. can one be more confident of tape
drives manufactured after some era to have non-goo capstan or is it that all
tape drives (including ones manufactured now are ticking time bombs?
Also how do you guys check capstans? Just stick long Q-tip in there? Thanks.
-Ali
11:45 a.m.
On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:16 , Charles <charles at
uniwho.com> wrote:
You can replace those with organic polymer caps, then leaking goo will never happen.
Are you referring to capacitors or capstans? Those are two very different things, although
both can be round. :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
12:20 p.m.
On 01/29/2015 11:45 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Indeed, it's when capstans fail to be round that problems ensue...
--Chuck
On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:16 , Charles <charles
at uniwho.com> wrote:
You can replace those with organic polymer caps, then leaking goo will never happen.
Are you referring to capacitors or capstans? Those are two very different things,
although both can be round. :)
1:41 p.m.
Pinch rollers, actually.
Does anyone have specs for a typical pinch roller? Namely, hardness
(Share D)? I wonder of plain old casting polyurethane might be the best
solution. Most casting resins seem to clock in at Shore 70D.
--Chuck
2:01 p.m.
On 1/29/15 1:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Pinch rollers, actually.
Does anyone have specs for a typical pinch roller? Namely, hardness (Share D)? I wonder
of plain old casting polyurethane might be the best solution. Most casting resins seem to
clock in at Shore 70D.
--Chuck
here is a nice chart with three hardness scales
http://www.sdplastics.com/polyuret.html
2:11 p.m.
On 1/29/15 2:01 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 1/29/15 1:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
The Norprene tubing I'm using is Shore A 61
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23485
Pinch rollers, actually.
Does anyone have specs for a typical pinch roller? Namely, hardness (Share D)? I wonder
of plain old casting polyurethane might be the best solution. Most casting resins seem to
clock in at Shore
70D.
--Chuck
here is a nice chart with three hardness scales
http://www.sdplastics.com/polyuret.html
30 Jan
30 Jan
10:29 a.m.
The Norprene tubing I'm using is Shore A 61
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23485
Al,
How are you using these? Do you have the original OD and ID measurements of
the roller and slip the tube with the right OD over it?
The only tape drives I've "repaired" were a pair of IBM 6157s and I was
lucky enough to find replacement capstans for them. But I do have a number
of QIC drives on older systems that may be hard to find parts for. Just
trying to plan ahead!
10:44 a.m.
On 1/30/15 10:29 AM, Ali wrote:
How are you using these? Do you have the original OD
and ID measurements of
the roller and slip the tube with the right OD over it?
Correct. You obviously have to have one surviving roller to be able to do this.
Brad Parker fixed some TU58's a while ago and sent me a 1' piece of Norprene that
a friend of mine cut for me. You end up with a lot extra because you have to buy
10' minimum. He also just did a few for the 9145s we have. You put
a dowel inside the tube and cut using dish soap as a lubricant. He used an Xacto
Saw blade.
I guess creating a table for tubing diamaters that work with common pinch roller
types would be a good thing. There are some rollers that may be difficult to do.
The early DEI 1/4" cartridge drives have very small rollers. There hasn't been
much experimentation yet as far as how much the outer diameter can vary. Most of
the cartridge tapes I know of use self-clocking encoding formats, so it might
actually be quite a bit.
1:41 p.m.
To add a recent experience of mine, I recently rebuilt a Cipher 540 QIC
drive (in a Ridge32).
The ID/OD of the capstan wheel on this drive is (roughly) 31/64" ID, 5/8"
OD (i.e. the inner diameter is JUST a shade under 1/2"), with a thickness
of 1/4". I found some 3/32" thick square o-rings with a 7/16" inner
diameter and 5/8" outer for $0.10 each (from http://www.theoringstore.com/)
and I ordered a few -- the inner diameter is a bit smaller than required,
but I figured it'd just make it stay on better (well, why not for the
price...)
After cleaning the goo on the capstan off (which is an ugly
procedure...) two of the rings fit snugly on the metal capstan wheel
(leaving about 1/16" at the bottom uncovered, which is ok since that area
will probably never actually need to contact the tape roller), and with a
tiny amount of glue they stay affixed quite nicely.
I've since erased/retensioned a few tapes and written a few tapes out
without issue. Also got RX/V installed on the Ridge using it. I can't say
it'll work for a *long* time, but it has worked fine thus far and was
enough to bring a doorstop back to life. (Well, now the power supply is
causing issues, but at least that doesn't involve getting tar all over my
fingers...)
- Josh
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 1/30/15 10:29 AM, Ali wrote:
How are you using these? Do you have the original OD and ID measurements
of
the roller and slip the tube with the right OD over it?
Correct. You obviously have to have one surviving roller to be able to do
this.
Brad Parker fixed some TU58's a while ago and sent me a 1' piece of
Norprene that
a friend of mine cut for me. You end up with a lot extra because you have
to buy
10' minimum. He also just did a few for the 9145s we have. You put
a dowel inside the tube and cut using dish soap as a lubricant. He used an
Xacto
Saw blade.
I guess creating a table for tubing diamaters that work with common pinch
roller
types would be a good thing. There are some rollers that may be difficult
to do.
The early DEI 1/4" cartridge drives have very small rollers. There hasn't
been
much experimentation yet as far as how much the outer diameter can vary.
Most of
the cartridge tapes I know of use self-clocking encoding formats, so it
might
actually be quite a bit.
2:48 p.m.
On 01/30/2015 01:41 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
To add a recent experience of mine, I recently rebuilt
a Cipher 540 QIC
drive (in a Ridge32).
The ID/OD of the capstan wheel on this drive is (roughly) 31/64" ID, 5/8"
OD (i.e. the inner diameter is JUST a shade under 1/2"), with a thickness
of 1/4". I found some 3/32" thick square o-rings with a 7/16" inner
diameter and 5/8" outer for $0.10 each (from http://www.theoringstore.com/)
and I ordered a few -- the inner diameter is a bit smaller than required,
but I figured it'd just make it stay on better (well, why not for the
price...)
Hmm, I wonder if an Amphenol neoprene cable bushing might provide a
source there. You'd want to stretch it a little, of course.
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/18/10-35910_C_Page1-187700.pdf
Cheap enough.
--Chuck
5:32 p.m.
On 01/30/2015 01:41 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
Hi,
I am glad to hear this is (at least for now) working for you! The IBM 6157 is essentially
a rebadged Cipher 540. As I mentioned elsewhere there was a source for replacement
capstans on eBay until recently. I could not find the seller when I just looked. Assuming
he no longer has good replacements this may be a way to maintain my 4x6157 and 3xCipher
540s!
Thanks.
To add a recent experience of mine, I recently
rebuilt a Cipher 540
QIC drive (in a Ridge32).
The ID/OD of the capstan wheel on this drive is (roughly) 31/64" ID,
5/8"
> OD (i.e. the inner diameter is JUST a shade under 1/2"), with a
> thickness of 1/4". I found some 3/32" thick square o-rings with a
> 7/16" inner diameter and 5/8" outer for $0.10 each (from
> http://www.theoringstore.com/) and I ordered a few -- the inner
> diameter is a bit smaller than required, but I figured it'd just make
> it stay on better (well, why not for the
> price...)
5:36 p.m.
I guess creating a table for tubing diamaters that
work with common
pinch roller types would be a good thing. There are some rollers that
may be difficult to do.
That would be a fantastic resource. However, as you mentioned there are many
models out there specially in the consumer space (e.g. all the Taravan
drives) and it may be very hard to accomplish.
I am just shooting the breeze but many drives are just rebadges of other
drives (e.g. Connor T-stor/Seagate T-stor or IBM 6157/Cipher 540s) I wonder
how much sharing is there in the transport space? i.e. If different
models/brand used the same transport mechanism and same "off the shelf"
parts to save costs... That may reduce the chart size significantly.
9:21 p.m.
I found these to companies that specalize in rebuilding rubber rollers. I have not used
them yet, but going to see what happens with a RCA tape recorder from the 60's, that
works fine but is slipping.
http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/
http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/default.asp
Randy
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 10:44:41 -0800
From: aek at bitsavers.org
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Tape Drive Capstans
On 1/30/15 10:29 AM, Ali wrote:
How are you using these? Do you have the original
OD and ID measurements of
the roller and slip the tube with the right OD over it?
Correct. You obviously have to have one surviving roller to be able to do this.
Brad Parker fixed some TU58's a while ago and sent me a 1' piece of Norprene
that
a friend of mine cut for me. You end up with a lot extra because you have to buy
10' minimum. He also just did a few for the 9145s we have. You put
a dowel inside the tube and cut using dish soap as a lubricant. He used an Xacto
Saw blade.
I guess creating a table for tubing diamaters that work with common pinch roller
types would be a good thing. There are some rollers that may be difficult to do.
The early DEI 1/4" cartridge drives have very small rollers. There hasn't been
much experimentation yet as far as how much the outer diameter can vary. Most of
the cartridge tapes I know of use self-clocking encoding formats, so it might
actually be quite a bit.
29 Jan
29 Jan
12:18 p.m.
On 1/29/15 10:55 AM, Ali wrote:
is it that all
tape drives (including ones manufactured now are ticking time bombs?
Tape is the bane of my existence.
All of the rubber parts will eventually soften or crack. I've mostly
seen softening on QIC drives, and roller cracking on helical DAT or Exabyte
drives. If you look on the audio tape deck forums, they claim a pinch roller
is only good for maybe five years of life. The youngest drives I use regularly
are 25+ years old. A TU58, for example, came out in the late 70's.
I don't think any manufacturer cared if a product worked for 10+ years when they
were made. This is a huge problem for archives that have huge collections of obsolete
media, like the Library of Congress.
Punched card readers are all going to fail because of all the rubber rollers in the
tape path. I've been told there is a place in LA that still has newly manufactured
rollers for Documation, but thanks to the fiasco in 2000, they're being retired.
That's why they keep showing up on eBay.
Also how do you guys check capstans?
Pull the drive apart and examine it for the correct stiffness. I've
seen 1/4" QIC rollers turn to goo as soon as the shaft heats up so
even that can be deceptive. There is a high probability that any 1/4" or 1/2"
tape drive you have has a failed rubber part in it somewhere.
I just bought a big selection of difference sizes of Norprene tubing from US Plastics
to see how they work on various QIC drives. The first ones I'm trying are the HP 9145
and
TU58.
12:22 p.m.
On Thu, 29 Jan 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
Punched card readers are all going to fail because of
all the rubber
rollers in the tape path. I've been told there is a place in LA that
still has newly manufactured rollers for Documation, but thanks to the
fiasco in 2000, they're being retired. That's why they keep showing up
on eBay.
Is it time to lay in a supply of spare rollers for the Documations? I
imagine the rollers would cost more than the readers.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
30 Jan
30 Jan
12:54 a.m.
On 29 January 2015 at 21:45, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
And then store them in the dark in a vacuum at 0
degrees kelvin?
No, the outgassing of volatiles would be a problem...
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
11:27 a.m.
On 29 January
2015 at 21:45, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Technically there should be no out gassing at 0 Kelvin.... ;) And then store them in the dark in a vacuum at 0
degrees kelvin?
No, the outgassing of volatiles would be a problem...
1:30 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great tony duell once stated:
Ah yes, but then there are the 3 laws of thermodynamics which have been expressed as :
1st : You can't win, you can only break even
2nd : You can only break even at absolute zero
3rd : You can't get to absolute zerp
I've heard them stated as:
1. You can't win
2. You can't break even
3. You can't get out of the game.
-spc
On 29 January 2015 at 21:45, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
Technically there should be no out gassing at 0 Kelvin.... ;) And then store them in the dark in a vacuum at 0
degrees kelvin?
No, the outgassing of volatiles would be a problem...
2:10 p.m.
New subject: Three laws of thermodynamics
Ah yes, but
then there are the 3 laws of thermodynamics which have been expressed as :
1st : You can't win, you can only break even
2nd : You can only break even at absolute zero
3rd : You can't get to absolute zerp
I've heard them stated as:
1. You can't win
2. You can't break even
3. You can't get out of the game.
30 Jan
30 Jan
5:21 p.m.
Ah yes, but then there are the 3 laws of
thermodynamics which have been
expressed as :
1st : You can't win, you can only break even
2nd : You can only break even at absolute zero
3rd : You can't get to absolute zerp
True Tony. But the OP apparently has solved 0K problem. He just can't save
his capstans from turning into goo...
31 Jan
31 Jan
1:04 a.m.
On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, tony duell wrote:
Ah yes, but then there are the 3 laws of thermodynamics which have been expressed as :
1st : You can't win, you can only break even
2nd : You can only break even at absolute zero
3rd : You can't get to absolute zerp ^^^^
I'm going to add "zerp" to my list of synonyms for "zero".
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
On 29 January 2015 at 21:45, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
Technically there should be no out gassing at 0 Kelvin.... ;) And then store them in the dark in a vacuum at 0
degrees kelvin?
No, the outgassing of volatiles would be a problem...
2:51 a.m.
David Griffith wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, tony duell wrote:
Ah yes, but then there are the 3 laws of thermodynamics which have been expressed as :
1st : You can't win, you can only break even
2nd : You can only break even at absolute zero
3rd : You can't get to absolute zerp ^^^^
I'm going to add "zerp" to my list of synonyms for "zero".
Maybe zerp is one of the zeros in ones compliment, the other being zern?
On 29 January 2015 at 21:45, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
> And then store them in the dark in a vacuum at 0 degrees kelvin?
>
No, the outgassing of volatiles would be a problem...
Technically there should be no out gassing at 0 Kelvin.... ;)
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
(Some years ago, a colleague told me I was confusing the customers by not
putting my replies at the top. Thanks for providing a nice logical summary of
the subject to show to him instead of my having to figure out how to penetrate
an upside down mind :-)
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
11:31 a.m.
Watch out Tony, you're getting infected with my machine's mysterious zeroes
bug! Dropping bits and stuff!
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 5:51 AM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie>
wrote:
David Griffith wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, tony duell wrote:
On 29 January 2015 at 21:45, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
^^^^
I'm going to add "zerp" to my list of synonyms for "zero".
Maybe zerp is one of the zeros in ones compliment, the other being zern?
>
> > And then store them in the dark in a vacuum at 0 degrees kelvin?
> >
> No, the outgassing of volatiles would be a problem...
>
Technically there should be no out gassing at 0 Kelvin.... ;)
Ah yes, but then there are the 3 laws of thermodynamics which have been
expressed as :
1st : You can't win, you can only break even
2nd : You can only break even at absolute zero
3rd : You can't get to absolute zerp
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
(Some years ago, a colleague told me I was confusing the customers by not
putting my replies at the top. Thanks for providing a nice logical
summary of
the subject to show to him instead of my having to figure out how to
penetrate
an upside down mind :-)
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
4 Feb
4 Feb
1:32 a.m.
On 30 January 2015 at 19:29, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
Technically there should be no out gassing at 0 Kelvin.... ;)
Ooh, good point. *Blush* :-)
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
29 Jan
29 Jan
2:23 p.m.
On 1/29/15 12:22 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
Is it time to lay in a supply of spare rollers for
the Documations? I imagine the rollers would cost more than the readers.
I think someone told me the replacements are polyurethane, so they may last longer, but
they will fail eventually as well.
2:30 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Kossow" <aek at bitsavers.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 3:18 PM
Tape is the bane of my existence.
All of the rubber parts will eventually soften or crack. I've mostly
seen softening on QIC drives, and roller cracking on helical DAT or
Exabyte
drives. If you look on the audio tape deck forums, they claim a pinch
roller
is only good for maybe five years of life.
Odd; the belts certainly stretch and often turn to goo, but I haven't run
across any melting rollers or idlers in my piles of consumer audio and video
stuff yet. Maybe just not old enough; I wonder if there's any way to prevent
or at least delay the deterioration it if it hasn't started yet.
m
3:18 p.m.
On 01/29/2015 02:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
Odd; the belts certainly stretch and often turn to
goo, but I haven't
run across any melting rollers or idlers in my piles of consumer audio
and video stuff yet. Maybe just not old enough; I wonder if there's any
way to prevent or at least delay the deterioration it if it hasn't
started yet.
I've got two Nakamichi cassette decks; both are the same model. One has
pinch rollers the consistency of modeling clay; the other is just fine.
So mileage must certainly vary.
I tend to think it's the same story--the problem is chemical degradation
and you're not going to stop it by any simple means.
--Chuck
3:52 p.m.
On 01/29/2015 05:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 01/29/2015 02:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
Yes, I've seen it in cassette decks, and also in a couple of 35mm slide
projectors (where there's a rubber drive wheel on the motor which engages
with the rest of the mechanism, or at least it would, if it hadn't turned
to goo)
I also had a pair of identical QIC drives where one roller was bad and the
other just fine.
cheers
Jules
Odd; the belts certainly stretch and often turn
to goo, but I haven't
run across any melting rollers or idlers in my piles of consumer audio
and video stuff yet. Maybe just not old enough; I wonder if there's any
way to prevent or at least delay the deterioration it if it hasn't
started yet.
I've got two Nakamichi cassette decks; both are the same model. One has
pinch rollers the consistency of modeling clay; the other is just fine.
So mileage must certainly vary. 
4:02 p.m.
I used to think that computer rubber parts had more issues because of old
laser printers being close by releasing ozone (hell on humans and rubber
parts). Once the rollers start getting soft they are junk. Never really had
much of a problem with bad rubber on my tape equipment but I have received a
few old NEC Versa laptops where their rubber pads on the bottom had
literally turned to snot I had to clean out with q-tips.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 6:18 PM
To: General at classiccmp.org ; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Tape Drive Capstans
On 01/29/2015 02:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
Odd; the belts certainly stretch and often turn to
goo, but I haven't
run across any melting rollers or idlers in my piles of consumer audio
and video stuff yet. Maybe just not old enough; I wonder if there's any
way to prevent or at least delay the deterioration it if it hasn't
started yet.
I've got two Nakamichi cassette decks; both are the same model. One has
pinch rollers the consistency of modeling clay; the other is just fine.
So mileage must certainly vary.
I tend to think it's the same story--the problem is chemical degradation
and you're not going to stop it by any simple means.
--Chuck
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com
4:58 p.m.
On 01/29/2015 04:02 PM, TeoZ wrote:
I used to think that computer rubber parts had more
issues because of
old laser printers being close by releasing ozone (hell on humans and
rubber parts). Once the rollers start getting soft they are junk. Never
really had much of a problem with bad rubber on my tape equipment but I
have received a few old NEC Versa laptops where their rubber pads on the
bottom had literally turned to snot I had to clean out with q-tips.
I've unpacked NOS QIC drives still sealed in anti-static bags with the
rubber turned to goo.
--Chuck
2:51 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 1/29/15 10:55 AM, Ali wrote:
The only rubber I can remember being used in the tape path of an M4
Data 9914 is on the tach roller. I had a nice working 9914
(800/1600/6250) until the thin rubber coating around the metal tach
roller lost the necessary friction properties against the moving tape
to correctly sense its speed. Quite a shame to loose a nice drive to
such a simple rubber failure. Maybe I could have found some way to fix
the problem, but I no longer have that drive.
is it that all
tape drives (including ones manufactured now are ticking time bombs?
Tape is the bane of my existence.
All of the rubber parts will eventually soften or crack. I've mostly
seen softening on QIC drives, and roller cracking on helical DAT or Exabyte
drives. If you look on the audio tape deck forums, they claim a pinch roller
is only good for maybe five years of life. The youngest drives I use
regularly
are 25+ years old. A TU58, for example, came out in the late 70's.
12:25 p.m.
On 01/29/2015 10:55 AM, Ali wrote:
Does anyone know if at any time in the past thirty
years if the material
used to make capstans has changed? I.E. can one be more confident of tape
drives manufactured after some era to have non-goo capstan or is it that all
tape drives (including ones manufactured now are ticking time bombs?
Also how do you guys check capstans? Just stick long Q-tip in there? Thanks.
Capstans fail in several ways, in my experience. One way is the "turn
to goo", which seems to happen more on 80s-90s-era units. Another way
is to simply dry out and crumble (no goo); I see that on 60s-70s units.
A third way is to permanently deform; e.g., when used as a pinch
roller, forming a depression where contacting the driving shaft.
Oddly, I've never seen a case where a capstan hardens to a rock-like
mass, as is encountered in typewriter or printer platens. There, methyl
salicylate can work wonders.
--Chuck
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