25 Aug
2011
25 Aug
'11
3:59 a.m.
Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
25 Aug
25 Aug
5:43 p.m.
Christian Liendo wrote:
Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems rather picky, as they're
quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra
index registers.
"Soldered with silver and gold"? All of them I've seen use normal
tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery,
plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in
computers. I've never heard of gold solder used for anything other than
jewelery, and wouldn't think it would be useful for computers.
Hmmm... a web search does reveal that gold solder is sometimes used for
soldering gold metalized alumina ceramic plages to gold plated Kovar
alloy assemblies. I haven't seen that kind of thing in really old
computers, though.
26 Aug
26 Aug
9:35 a.m.
From: Eric Smith
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:44 PM
Christian Liendo wrote:
> Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems
rather picky, as they're
quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra
index registers.
Our focus at the museum is on interactive computing, especially timesharing
mainframe systems and minicomputers. The 7090 is, and can be, neither. We
have a budget, and only spend money to further that mission.
"Soldered with silver and gold"? All of
them I've seen use normal
tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery,
plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in
computers. I've never heard of gold solder used for anything other than
jewelery, and wouldn't think it would be useful for computers.
Hmmm... a web search does reveal that gold solder is
sometimes used for
soldering gold metalized alumina ceramic plages to gold plated Kovar
alloy assemblies. I haven't seen that kind of thing in really old
computers, though.
You should come visit the Xerox Sigma systems, to see what it looks like
in massive quantity.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
9:45 a.m.
sad when ur looking for one thing and find something amazing but does not
fit inside ur mandate :( hopefully some sweet home is made for the poor
machean in aus who ever that farmer is deserves something for taking the
time and space to spare it from death
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote:
From: Eric Smith
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:44 PM
Christian Liendo wrote:
> Just interesting that that WSJ picked this
up
>
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems
rather picky, as they're
quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra
index registers.
Our focus at the museum is on interactive computing, especially timesharing
mainframe systems and minicomputers. The 7090 is, and can be, neither. We
have a budget, and only spend money to further that mission.
"Soldered with silver and gold"? All
of them I've seen use normal
tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery,
plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in
computers. I've never heard of gold solder used for anything other than
jewelery, and wouldn't think it would be useful for computers.
Hmmm... a web search does reveal that gold solder
is sometimes used for
soldering gold metalized alumina ceramic plages to gold plated Kovar
alloy assemblies. I haven't seen that kind of thing in really old
computers, though.
You should come visit the Xerox Sigma systems, to see what it looks like
in massive quantity.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
1:37 p.m.
Seconded!! I have the space for it, but have no way to get it here.
-Dave
On 08/26/2011 12:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
sad when ur looking for one thing and find something
amazing but does not
fit inside ur mandate :( hopefully some sweet home is made for the poor
machean in aus who ever that farmer is deserves something for taking the
time and space to spare it from death
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Rich Alderson<RichA at vulcan.com> wrote:
> From: Eric Smith
> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:44 PM
>
> Christian Liendo wrote:
>>> Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up
>>>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
>
>> So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems rather picky, as they're
>> quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra
>> index registers.
>
> Our focus at the museum is on interactive computing, especially timesharing
> mainframe systems and minicomputers. The 7090 is, and can be, neither. We
> have a budget, and only spend money to further that mission.
>
>> "Soldered with silver and gold"? All of them I've seen use normal
>> tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery,
>> plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in
>> computers. I've never heard of gold solder used for anything other than
>> jewelery, and wouldn't think it would be useful for computers.
>
>> Hmmm... a web search does reveal that gold solder is sometimes used for
>> soldering gold metalized alumina ceramic plages to gold plated Kovar
>> alloy assemblies. I haven't seen that kind of thing in really old
>> computers, though.
>
> You should come visit the Xerox Sigma systems, to see what it looks like
> in massive quantity.
>
>
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
> Vulcan, Inc.
> 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
> Seattle, WA 98104
>
> mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
> mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
>
> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
>
>
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
5:35 p.m.
On 08/26/2011 08:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Huh? Who said I have no intention of restoring it to running condition?
I got a building with three-phase power for a reason, you know.
Of course something like a 7090 isn't likely to become runnable again
in the first place.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Seconded!!
I have the space for it, but have no way to get it
here.
But what good is it if you have no intention of restoring it to
running condition? One might as well have a painted cardboard
mockup.
Pardon my density. 
6:16 p.m.
On 2011 Aug 26, at 5:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Of course something like a 7090 isn't likely to become runnable
again in the first place.
Are you speculating or do you know of some particular age-related flaw
in said machines?
Having worked on numerous items from that period (and successfully
getting them working), albeit not of that scale, my initial response
would be why not? Granted it is possible one could run into some fatal
flaw but I would consider that the lesser likelihood. Depends on the
condition of course, as it does for anything. IBM was pretty good for
component quality. The CHM PDP-1 of the same era runs, etc.
I'd love to have the opportunity to work on refurbishing something like
a 7090.
6:35 p.m.
Are you speculating or do you know of some particular
age-related flaw in
said machines?
The transistors. There are some batches that IBM used in the SMS era
that have leakage issues, like many of the ca. 1960 transistors.
Combing through 50000 devices would be a challenge that never ends.
--
Will
11:26 p.m.
On 2011 Aug 26, at 6:35 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
The issue of the transistors did occur to me, if you are aware of
problems with particular batches IBM used, that would be an issue.
Speaking generally though, I'm not convinced Ge transistors are as much
of a problem as they are sometimes made out to be (..kind of like
electrolytic caps), although yes, they are certainly more of a problem
than later/Si.
As an example, the three discrete-transistor calculators I have
comprise about 2000 Ge transistors. 6 of those 2000 transistors have
needed replacement (3 out of over 5000 diodes have also been replaced).
These are from 1966-68 so perhaps a few years later than a 7090, with
the potential for some manufacturing improvements, but probably of a
lower grade than IBM used.
The CHM writeup on the PDP-1 states "To the team's surprise, the PDP-1
worked almost perfectly right away", after the power supplies were
done.
Are you
speculating or do you know of some particular age-related
flaw in
said machines?
The transistors. There are some batches that IBM used in the SMS era
that have leakage issues, like many of the ca. 1960 transistors.
Combing through 50000 devices would be a challenge that never ends.
2:24 p.m.
Speaking generally though, I'm not convinced Ge
transistors are as much of a
problem as they are sometimes made out to be (..kind of like electrolytic
caps), although yes, they are certainly more of a problem than later/Si.
As an example, the three discrete-transistor calculators I have comprise
about 2000 Ge transistors. 6 of those 2000 transistors have needed
replacement (3 out of over 5000 diodes have also been replaced). These are
from 1966-68 so perhaps a few years later than a 7090, with the potential
for some manufacturing improvements,
Those few years made quite a difference. Even though transistors were
being mass produced as far back as 1952 or so (and I am stretching the
definition of "mass"), they still really sort of sucked until the late
1950s. The transistors in the SMS in a 7090 are really only a couple
of years into the "decent stuff". Your devices from the mid/late 60s
are well past that.
As for my 50000 transistor count, pulled from the IBM website - I
think that is for the CPU only. For a whole system I suspect 70000 is
more like it.
--
Will
26 Aug
26 Aug
9:31 p.m.
On 08/26/2011 09:16 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
I'm speculating. It's a very large, very old machine. It will not
be a small project, no matter how you slice it.
Of course
something like a 7090 isn't likely to become runnable again
in the first place.
Are you speculating or do you know of some particular age-related flaw
in said machines? Having worked on numerous items from that period (and
successfully
getting them working), albeit not of that scale, my initial response
would be why not? Granted it is possible one could run into some fatal
flaw but I would consider that the lesser likelihood. Depends on the
condition of course, as it does for anything. IBM was pretty good for
component quality. The CHM PDP-1 of the same era runs, etc.
Yes, and it took cash, people, and time. I'm saying it's not a small
project, nothing more. Is a 7090 not significantly larger (in terms of
component count) than a PDP-1?
I'd love to have the opportunity to work on
refurbishing something like
a 7090.
You and me both!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
27 Aug
27 Aug
8:48 a.m.
On 8/26/11 9:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Yes, and it took cash, people, and time. I'm
saying it's not a small project, nothing more.
After purchase cost, shipping, and cost of restoration, I would guess restoring that 7090
would be almost seven figures. They are NOT giving the machine away, and it will be
several
hundred thousand dollars to properly crate and ship it, based on what it cost CHM to have
several containers professionally packed and shipped from Germany to California.
Is a 7090 not significantly larger (in terms of
component count) than a PDP-1?
It is at least 20x larger. Paul Pierce's 7094 fills a large room.
http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/ibm7094.jpg
26 Aug
26 Aug
6:36 p.m.
On 26 Aug 2011 at 20:35, Dave McGuire wrote:
Huh? Who said I have no intention of restoring it
to running
condition?
I got a building with three-phase power for a reason, you know.
Of course something like a 7090 isn't likely to become runnable
again in the first place.
Do you also have a broomstick with a magnet on the end? :)
Getting the mechanicals going would be a huge challenge, though there
are probably still a fair number of parts available for 729 tape
drives. The unit-record equipment would be a completely different
story.
Having been stored in a barn, I can well imagine that the critters
have been busy defecating, breeding and chewing on the innards lo
these many years.
The core, unless it's been carefully preserved in its oil bath,
probably has rotted past usability by now.
Geting one of those going could easily be a lifetime task.
Do FMS or IBSYS images still exist?
If you ever do get one going, I'd love to visit you!
--Chuck
8:15 p.m.
In article <4E57E7C6.16804.1EC4E94 at cclist.sydex.com>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
Do FMS or IBSYS images still exist?
Dunno about FMS, but I believe IBSYS images exist that people run on
the 7090 simulator in SIMH.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
6 Sep
6 Sep
3:20 p.m.
On Thursday, August 25, 2011, Eric Smith wrote:
Christian Liendo wrote:
I was part of the email conversation with Allen's team discussing this matter (before,
during and after a member of Allen's team traveled to Australia to look at what was
supposed to be an "IBM 7094").
One of Paul Allen's goals is to get CTSS running on a 7094. It turns out that software
is available for CTSS on the 7094 and not the 7090. See:
http://www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html
We discussed the possibility of converting a 7090 to a 7094 - but those of us familiar
with the process said that was nearly impossible.
When a customer wanted to upgrade from a 7090 to a 7094, the factory would send a team to
the customer - along with a 7094 CPU. The team would then spend about a week (IIRC)
rewire-wrapping the other 7090 frames that needed to modified for the upgrade.
Given that just getting a 7090 or 7094 running in itself is a major effort, the additional
challenge of attempting to upgrade a 7090 to a 7094 is for all practical purposes
impossible.
Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems rather picky, as they're
quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra
index registers. "Soldered with silver and gold"? All of
them I've seen use normal
tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery,
plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in
computers.
Tektronix used silver solder in their 5xx series of scopes. The reason - ceramic terminal
strips - and silver binds to ceramic. I have personal experience of silver being used by
the military for microwave waveguides, etc. It wouldn't surprise me to find silver
used in certain military computer applications...
--snip--
Cheers,
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley, AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
4623
days inactive
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17 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
christian_liendo＠yahoo.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
lbickley＠bickleywest.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
RichA＠vulcan.com -
tdk.knight＠gmail.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com