- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

I never heard of octal based systems, but I know a lot of work was done on trinary computers (3 rather than binary 2 states - on, off, and inbetween). Everything I heard said they were too expensive, etc.... Try searching the web under "trinary computer"? Jay West

26 years, 10 months

2
1
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2BSD on PDP-11 (was Re: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?))

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> wrote: > Jake: > > On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Jacob Ritorto <jritorto(a)nut.net> > writes: > > > PS. I'm still M$ free, BTW, but I sold out about three years ago and > > now use commodity hardware w/FreeBSD in addition to my pdp11s running > > 2BSD > > You've aroused my interest with this. You run *BSD in a PDP-11? WHich > model PDP do you have that does this? Five years ago I was running 2.9BSD on an *emulated* PDP-11 on my SPARC1. I would refer you to the BSD web pages for a hardware compatibility list, but for smaller PDP's (11/24, 11/34, etc.), they can run 2.9BSD. Things like MSCP (SCSI, SDI, etc.) weren't added until later versions of 2BSD, but to run _them_, you need an 11/44 or 11/73 or the like. > I have a lead on an 11/73 I can probably get for next to nothing (with a SCSI > HD controller!). Go join PUPS (The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society). You can get a $100 license for 2BSD and then go get 2.11BSD for your 11/73. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 10 months

2
1
0 0

Monitor tilt - return it?

by Innfogra＠aol.com

If the image is square but just tilted then the fix is usually easy. The yoke is twisted on the neck of the CRT. Take the back off the case. Locate and loosen the locking screw, normally only one. Rotate the yoke to correct the tilt. Be very careful, many loose high voltages. I like putting a mirror in front of the screen so I can see where I put my hands. Good luck. Paxton

26 years, 10 months

7
12
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Murphy's law is in full effect...

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

Well, plugging the Unibus end of the DW11 into the Q-bus didn't kill it, but plugging it into a Unibus slot BACKWARDS did. (What is it with me and absolutely stupid mistakes? Geez...) At least I think it did. On applying power, I got smoke, but no pop. The chip I crisped isn't marked with a U number, but, on the M8217 end, it's in the bottom row (Just above the bus pins), 4th from the left edge of the card (I'm holding the card with the component side facing me.) The chip has a bad smell and is slightly discolored. All the others look OK. The chip was also very hot when I cut the power and yanked the card out. I was too busy trying to keep the cat from climbing inside the box to pay attention to the card. Next time I shut the door. Assuming there IS a next time. If I can't revive this card, or find a Unibus RL02 controller in 4 days, this project dies. (I can't have the large toys here after Friday. I can only have what fits under my bed, which is the 83 and it's RL02. So anyway, the chip is marked as follows: 915 DS8641N There is no vendor ID, just a little mark like 2 lightning bolts in paralell (Like a jagged = sign). So, the questions now are... 1. What's this chip, and what does it do? 2. Can I replace it, or am I just screwed? 3. Is there a way that with only a voltmeter (I don't have and can't afford a scope) to verify that the chip's dead? (I'm overly optimistic too...) 4. What stupid mistake am I gonna make next? My bets are that the tape drive will be dead for some reason and I stomp on the RSTS tape, or get halfway thru the restore, hit a bad block on the tape, and end up with an unusable drive. Failing that, I'll either crash the RL02 (I only have one pack) or find a way to nuke the 83 and the 34A at the same time. (For refrence, I went and got a PDP-11/34A to use as the UNIBUS end of this.) And yes, I know I misspelled parallel, I'm just too lazy to fix it. -------

26 years, 10 months

6
5
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HP plotters

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Hi All, I got this from a friend of mine. You can see there are still lots of good reasons to keep a real plotter around. So save that plotter! Joe > >A little while back a friend of mine (little bit of a collector, he >has a Basis 108 and a DEC Pro 350, and some VAXen that he used to use) >was starting to get into slide photography and going through his >father's collection of slides (mostly having to do with the NYC subway >system and like things in other cities). He decided he wanted to >print on photo slide mounts; handwriting them doesn't work for him >because he has crappy handwriting. > >So we spent some time at Fry's looking at inkjet printers, and decided >the paper paths were too contorted -- no way to get a slide mount >through there, let alone the sort of cardboard carrier we thought we'd >need. > >We thought about it a while and decided that a plotter would be the >way to go. Of course, who makes plotters in this day of cheap color >inkjet printers (with expensive ink cartridges)? So I went to the >next Computer Recycling Center sale and picked up a somewhat grungy >7550A for $10 and passed it along to him. He bought some pens on >eBay, worked out some HP-GL, hacked up a pen and an extra-fine >Sharpie, and put together some bits of cardboard to make a carrier for >a few slide mounts, and he was all set. > >So I guess they still have their uses. His only complaint is that the >7550 takes up too much table space. I guess I'm keeping my eyes open for >an 7470 or 7475 with RS-232 interface. > >

26 years, 10 months

3
2
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Best CP/M machine?

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Phil Clayton <musicman38(a)mindspring.com> wrote: > I would cast my vote for the Kaypro I have one in my office that runs with a > nice continous demo program that I wrote in BASIC... Care to share your demo? I've got a Kaypro 2 I picked up at the last Dayton Hamfest (and a spare Tandon TM-100-2 double-sided drive to perhaps upgrade with, should I care to plunk down the cash for a new boot ROM that supports double-sided disks). -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 10 months

1
0
0 0

Best CP/M machine?

by edick＠idcomm.com

26 years, 10 months

3
2
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HP plotters

by edick＠idcomm.com

That 7550 is quite a bit "more" plotter than the smaller 74xx ones. It's too bad the table is so small . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:29 AM Subject: HP plotters >Hi All, > > I got this from a friend of mine. You can see there are still lots of >good reasons to keep a real plotter around. So save that plotter! > > Joe >> >>A little while back a friend of mine (little bit of a collector, he >>has a Basis 108 and a DEC Pro 350, and some VAXen that he used to use) >>was starting to get into slide photography and going through his >>father's collection of slides (mostly having to do with the NYC subway >>system and like things in other cities). He decided he wanted to >>print on photo slide mounts; handwriting them doesn't work for him >>because he has crappy handwriting. >> >>So we spent some time at Fry's looking at inkjet printers, and decided >>the paper paths were too contorted -- no way to get a slide mount >>through there, let alone the sort of cardboard carrier we thought we'd >>need. >> >>We thought about it a while and decided that a plotter would be the >>way to go. Of course, who makes plotters in this day of cheap color >>inkjet printers (with expensive ink cartridges)? So I went to the >>next Computer Recycling Center sale and picked up a somewhat grungy >>7550A for $10 and passed it along to him. He bought some pens on >>eBay, worked out some HP-GL, hacked up a pen and an extra-fine >>Sharpie, and put together some bits of cardboard to make a carrier for >>a few slide mounts, and he was all set. >> >>So I guess they still have their uses. His only complaint is that the >>7550 takes up too much table space. I guess I'm keeping my eyes open for >>an 7470 or 7475 with RS-232 interface. >> > >> >

26 years, 10 months

1
0
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Why is CP/M faster than DOS

by edick＠idcomm.com

On my Ampro Little Board (the original one) on which I have a small hard disk, though this is by no means limited to the hard disk, software loads VERY fast as well. It's no coincidence, I believe, that this one has the Kaypro format as an optional diskette format. The difference, I belive is the way data is stored on the diskette. If you have the right combination of sector skew and data block size, tansfers to/from diskette are quite fast. What's more, since CP/M systems didn't normally attempt to do all the crazy stuff that DOS attempts to do with its BIST/POST firmware, there's less to wait for. I think one will be disappointed with the real performance of the typical 4 MHz Z-80 if it's evaluated in an I/O-independent way, since we've become accustomed to much faster processors. Nonetheless, turning the machine on and having the prompt waiting for you by the time the monitor is warmed up enough to show the image is quite a treat. With one of those 1.25" tall 3-1/2" drives, my Ampro boots up CP/M in a second or two. It's amazing! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Phil Clayton <musicman38(a)mindspring.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 7:44 AM Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS >After reading all the comments on CP/M computers a comment was made that CP/M >is a faster OS that DOS.. I have found this to be very true. >My Kaypro 1X boots up in 5 seconds, and loads MBASIC in about another 5 >seconds, also >executes the same BASIC code faster than on my XT. > >Now on my old Compaq XT, it takes about 30 seconds just for the hardware to >powerup, >then another 20 seconds to boot to a DOS prompt, then another 15 seconds to >boot BASIC. > >So can some of the experts here tell me why CP/M is so much faster ? > >Phil... > > > >

26 years, 10 months

1
0
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HP DraftMaster I

by edick＠idcomm.com

After I wrote this remark I got to thinking . . . the model I was dogging was a flatbed not quite the right size for "B" format but had analog inputs rather than RS-232 or HPGL. It was a 72-something, but my aging memory can't produce the "something" as it once did. Several fellows I knew had snagged them and I spent literally weeks with each of them trying to make them perform repeatably. They looked and smelled solid, but didn't behave that way. Even when they were more or less operational, the pen speed was very slow. The 74xx series, by way of contrast, was more or less like a real plotter though it was just a toy . . . sort of a stopgap while they developed a useable printer with which to do the same thing. The 75xx models actually behaved like real plotters. That tray-fed tabletop 7550 was the smalles in this series, IIRC, but it had eight pens and could plot quickly and accurately as could its bigger bretheren. There are some folks who were sorry to see these dinosaurs pass, but anyone who's had to wait 45 minutes for one to plot a "D"-sized drawing will tell you the ink-spitters are a gigantic improvement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:49 AM Subject: Re: HP DraftMaster I >Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> wrote: >> Sounds like a HP 7221 plotter with paper feed. I have one of them and a >> 9874 that's similar but has a HP-IB inteface. Someone dropped the 9874 on >> one corner and bent the whole thing out of kilter. I've tried everything >> but I can't get it to feed paper right. The framne is too heavy to try and >> straighten out. Perhaps if I took it to someone that has a puller for >> straightening car frames ..... > >I think you must be referring to the HP 9872. They sold basically the >same plotter as three models: > >HP 7220 - RS-232 serial, compact binary language >HP 7221 - RS-232 serial, HP-GL, same hardware as 7220 but with different ROMS >HP 9872 - IEEE-488 (HP-IB), HP-GL > >Different letter suffixes denoted the generation of the plotter, and whether >it had the roll feed (e.g., 9872 A/B/C without, and 9872 S/T with). Early >generations had four pen stalls, and later ones had eight. > >Note that these were the first HP-GL plotters, and the language evolved >some minor differences that prevent some modern software from working with >them. I built my own serial-to-488 box to use with mine, and my firmware >tweaks the HP-GL when necessary. > >"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >> God be thanked, it's not at all like that miserable piece of junk! If id >> hadn't said HP on it, nobody with more than two grey cells would have taken >> one home. > >I can't believe you'd say that about this series of plotters, which were >very well-engineered and solidly built flatbed plotters. Are you >sure you're not thinking about the 7225, or the much later "consumer" >grit-wheel plotters such as the 7470 and 7475?

26 years, 10 months

1
0
0 0

HP DraftMaster I

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded comments below thanx Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 7:16 PM Subject: Re: HP DraftMaster I >At 09:00 AM 9/1/99 -0600, Dick wrote: <snip> > I know. AFTER you bought it you found out that you needed all kinds of >optional I/O ROMs and the like to make it work. > Actually, it was working perfectly about 2 minutes after I replaced the parts on the serial I/O board. Now probably only one was defective, but I replaced them all. There aren't many. > >> Nowadays, there's nobody there who'll even talk about them. > > Yeap. >> >>If you want to test the thing thoroughly, you'll have to get some of the <snip> > Sounds like a HP 7221 plotter with paper feed. I have one of them and a >9874 that's similar but has a HP-IB inteface. Someone dropped the 9874 on >one corner and bent the whole thing out of kilter. I've tried everything >but I can't get it to feed paper right. The framne is too heavy to try and >straighten out. Perhaps if I took it to someone that has a puller for >straightening car frames ..... > God be thanked, it's not at all like that miserable piece of junk! If id hadn't said HP on it, nobody with more than two grey cells would have taken one home. > > These machines will feed the appropriate amount, but don't >>mind wasting paper, i.e. they feed the 36"-wide paper 14-15" for a portrait >>'A'-size form, wasting most of the paper. That was the reason I got the >>single-sheet version. I don't need it to run all night unattended, but I do >>have to pay for the paper. You'll see that's not cheap. > > I always use mine if single sheet mode. BTW any idea where I can find a >roll of paper for it? I only have a small amount of paper left and I'd >like to have a roll to go with it. > > >That may explain >>why the drawings in most manuals are so difficult to read, having been >>reduced from already-too-small drawings. >> >>The manuals may still be available somewhere, but I would get right on >>trying to find them if I were you. > > I have a PRETTY GOOD bunch of plotter manuals. In fact, I have a good >bunch of all of the HP computer and calculator manuals. I grab everyone >that I can get my hands on! What model plotter do you have? > Well, the manual set for mine (HP7585B) weights just short of 25 lbs and costs about $500 to duplicate because of the half-tone schematics and other drawings, which won't Xerox at all readably. > > I made the purchase of my plotter >>contingent on complete manuals, so they were included. That became a >>condition after I found that Martin Marietta, after buying 20 or so of these >>still hadn't received a complete set of manuals even though each plotter was >>supposed to come with them. > > Boy! Does this bring back memories! When I was working in Canada for >Martin Marietta we could never got any of the drawings and other documents >from MM in the US. I keep calling and they kept telling me that they had >been sent. In fact some of them were sent three times with multiple copies >everytime. I finally got the name of the guy that they were sent to in >Canada and I went found him. It turns out that he kept one copy of >EVERYTHING that went through his office. I checked the next office that >handled the stuff and they did the same thing. So did the next office. And >the one after that! As it turns out the handling people kept everything and >the ones of us in engineering never got the stuff that was supposed to be >coming to us. I think that was SOP for MM! > >> >>If you have access to a Windows box with AutoCad 12 on it (I don't have a >>later version to try this) you should be able to put it through its paces, >>as that has an internal plotter driver which operates independently of the >>one in WIndows. I've had no luck at all getting the Windows driver to do >>anything. I suspect (after watching the lights on the breakout box) that >>there is some incompatibility in the way they work their handshaking. >>Perhaps the '488 port will work for you, if you've got one with drivers in >>your system. > > Well I'm using a HP 7550 on the PC so it may be more compatible than >your older model. But I think you need more than a null MODEM cable to make >the plotter work. I have a manual with the cabling schematics somewhere >and I think the HP requires more of the pins to be connected than most >serial devices do. I'll look for the cabling drawings if you want them. > The 7550 was an earlier, and much smaller, version from the same family. I briefly had one but found the pens not to be interchangeable with my 7585, and was too cheap to stock two sets of pens. For 'B' size, as th 7550 does, I use an HP1120C printer. > Joe >

26 years, 10 months

2
1
0 0

pdp11/45

by jritorto＠nut.net

Hello Classiccmp. I recently acquired a nice, rust-free, mostly-original 11/45 from an old lisp hacker in Los Altos Hills, CA. He told me that it had been running the last time he'd powered it up, which was in 1984 IIRC, but sadly, something has gone awry and it won't run now, though it seems to be close. Here's a brief summary of its status: It was originally a five-rack system with each rack containing the controllers for the housed peripherals. The bus was chained through to each rack on a BC05 and terminated with an M930. I only took the processor and the TU-10 racks, so to make troubleshooting easier, I reduced the system to only the CPU and memory boxes (memory is a 220KB box from Monolithic Systems that has unibus in and out). The processor has 12 KW of core as well, so I guess I could cut the bus down a bit more for the purpose of debugging. Mode of failure is such: I powered up the shortened system and the front panel lights lit [excitement]. Then I tried to examine some memory locations via the panel, but when I hit HALT, the RUN light stayed lit. I tried every combination of switches I thought was appropriate, but the RUN light wouldn't go off. (Sounds like a simple bus error, really.) Upon realizing that something was amiss, I decabled all the power connectors >from the logic and tested the voltages, which, surprisingly, were all about 6%-9% above spec (and I'm not too sure that my VOM is accurate even though it's analog). I didn't readjust the voltages, but reconnected the power cables to the logic boards and retested the voltage levels. All stayed about the same except for the -15VDC. It dropped to about 2V. Same reading on both -15V regulators, by the way, and they seem to be connected to different areas of the backplane, but I'm not sure. There seems to be a high-pitch squeal (that sound of a laboring regulator) coming from somewhere in the power supply cluster, but there's no smoke or crackling sounds. I don't remember noticing the squeal with the power cables disconnected, but that may be a subconscious hope and not a fact. So that's my predicament. I don't have much time to mess with this beautiful old girl, so I hope someone here can increase my repairing efficiency. Help me save this great piece of computing history. In return, I'll at least give you an account on it if I get it to the point where it'll run 2.9BSD or V7. I have SMD interfaces and disks, etc and everything else I need (except a DELQA) to get it hooked up to the net. Thank you in advance. jake

26 years, 10 months

7
22
0 0

16-sector disks?

by edick＠idcomm.com

I don't know how common they were, but most 8" floppy drives seem to have a built-in provision for them. The most I've seen is the 33-hole 32-sector format, but the drives with sector-separators on them had jumpering for 8, 16, and 32-sector formats. Unfortunately, the controllers which operate on hard-sectored formats seem to be like hen's teeth. If your system knows what to do with these, then you're in luck. Does your system read your data diskettes after you've booted from the hard-sectored boot diskette? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence <hrothgar(a)total.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 2:43 AM Subject: 16-sector disks? >Hi, > >How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? > >I found some disks for my AES 7100, and that's what they are (17 >holes!). > >Unfortunately, the only Software disk I found only boots part way. The >other disks are Data disks, and they give me an error when I try to boot >from them. <s> > >But at least now I know that the screen works. :) > >-- >Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: >hrothgar(a)total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ >

26 years, 10 months

2
1
0 0

16-sector disks?

by hrothgar＠total.net

Hi, How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? I found some disks for my AES 7100, and that's what they are (17 holes!). Unfortunately, the only Software disk I found only boots part way. The other disks are Data disks, and they give me an error when I try to boot >from them. <s> But at least now I know that the screen works. :) -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar(a)total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/

26 years, 10 months

5
6
0 0

Monitor tilt - fixed! (blushing very deeply)

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Ok - ok - you can all stop laughing now! :) (about me trying to turn the tube). I never touched a monitor before and don't know electronically how they work at all. Hence, my question. The biggest reason I didn't turn the coil part others were talking about was that it had a big line of hotglue around it, so it looked to me like it was supposed to stay put. I went back and delicately removed the line of glue, and the coil thingy turns easily. The picture is now perfect - so thanks a MILLION to all who responded (and didn't laugh too loudly <grin>). One last question if I can impose.... should I get out the hot glue gun and put another line of glue where the tube meets the coil in addition to tightening down the hose clamp doodad, or should I just skip the glue? Actually, it might not be glue, it looks like clear caulk. THANKS! Jay West

26 years, 10 months

4
3
0 0

Tek40xx setup mode info re-rqst

by bsa3＠cornell.edu

Someone posted instructions for the setup mode of Tek 40xx series graphical terminals fairly recently, but I can't seem to find said message in the archives. Could the original poster please email a copy of that message to me or repost to the list? -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3(a)cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998

26 years, 10 months

2
1
0 0

HP DraftMaster I

by edick＠idcomm.com

My plotter, admittedly not exactly identical, but VERY similar, requires that you load the paper, press the button that says "chart hold" or some such, then, after allowing the plotter to look for the edges of the paper (an important step because it initializes the origin to the center of the paper), press "on-line" at which time the DTR light becomes really important. Now, the plotter will work from a null-modem arrangement if you use X-on/x-off but I've had my best luck with the cable hooked up differently. I'd go into detail, but that was with the old v3.22 OrCad drafting utility and it had to have a specially wired cable to work correctly. I've also opened the box and socketed and replaced the components on the little serial interface board, which uses a Z-80 Dart and some 1488 and 1489 drivers and receivers. If this little comm interface module isn't happy, the whole plotter knows about it and doesn't work well. Back in the late '80's, when I got mine, the HP support for these (they were still selling them) was terrible. No one really knew what was necessary to make them work. Nowadays, there's nobody there who'll even talk about them. If you want to test the thing thoroughly, you'll have to get some of the toilet paper that fits it, (mine only uses cut forms) making sure you still have the cutoff blade located in the little groove at the front and then load the paper in the paper path (straighforward, assume the obvious) and then send it various drawings which use different size paper in different orientation. These machines will feed the appropriate amount, but don't mind wasting paper, i.e. they feed the 36"-wide paper 14-15" for a portrait 'A'-size form, wasting most of the paper. That was the reason I got the single-sheet version. I don't need it to run all night unattended, but I do have to pay for the paper. You'll see that's not cheap. That may explain why the drawings in most manuals are so difficult to read, having been reduced from already-too-small drawings. The manuals may still be available somewhere, but I would get right on trying to find them if I were you. I made the purchase of my plotter contingent on complete manuals, so they were included. That became a condition after I found that Martin Marietta, after buying 20 or so of these still hadn't received a complete set of manuals even though each plotter was supposed to come with them. If you have access to a Windows box with AutoCad 12 on it (I don't have a later version to try this) you should be able to put it through its paces, as that has an internal plotter driver which operates independently of the one in WIndows. I've had no luck at all getting the Windows driver to do anything. I suspect (after watching the lights on the breakout box) that there is some incompatibility in the way they work their handshaking. Perhaps the '488 port will work for you, if you've got one with drivers in your system. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence <hrothgar(a)total.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 2:43 AM Subject: Re: HP DraftMaster I >On 31-Aug-99, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >>The Draftmaster series was "current" in '88. We bought them for about >>$10K each in '88, though I routinely see them offered nowadays at >>$200. > >So I guess this is simultaneously my cheapest (free) and most expensive >($10,000) piece of computer equipment. :) > >>There are drivers for Windows, ><snip> > >I'll have to see if there's a proper driver for AmigaOS. I don't do >Windows (at least not yet!). > >>Pens from third parties are readily available and the device >>operates as either DCE or DTE via RS232, or HPIB. > >I thought the thing wasn't working until I thought to try connecting it >up via a null modem instead of a standard serial cable. My null modem >doesn't carry the flow control lines, though, so I can overflow the >plotter's buffer at 19,200bps. If I play with the settings I might be >able to fix that, though. (There are quite a few menu items in there!) > >>Dick > > >-- >Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: >hrothgar(a)total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ >

26 years, 10 months

2
1
0 0

Monitor tilt - return it? FOLLOWUP QUESTION

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Thanks to all for the advice on fixing the monitor tilt problem. Followup question: I'm probably being overcautious - monitors have always scared me due to the high possibility of shock hazzard. I believe it was Tony who said to basically unscrew the "hose clamp like" ring, then gently turn the tube end to adjust the screen. I'm doing this with power off because I'm a chicken (and I still realize there's some voltage lurking around). On this monitor, the "hose clamp like ring" unscrews easily. The ring itself was spread slightly (mechanics piston ring expander type tool). I can tell the clamp is quite loose. On the very end of the tube is a small circuit board, about 2 inches by two inches. This is soldered directly onto the 7 or so pins in a circle on the back of the tube. Not wanting to touch the tube, I figured I'd just gently turn the circuit card on the back. I have applied as much pressure as possible without running the risk of bending or breaking the pins coming out of the tube and into the circuit card. The thing won't turn. I just wanted to double check with folks here and make sure I wasn't trying to turn the end of the whole picture tube off! Suggestions? TIA! Jay West

26 years, 10 months

3
2
0 0

FW: DEC plus lots of other for sale

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Found on Usenet. Anyone interested, please contact this fellow directly. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:30:34 -0600, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: geomac(a)hop-uky.campuscwix.net (George McCouch) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec >>Subject: DEC plus lots of other for sale >>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:30:34 -0600 >>Organization: W3GEO >>Lines: 42 >>Message-ID: <geomac-0109991630340001(a)s03-pm28.snwestsac.campuscwix.net> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: s03-pm28.snwestsac.campuscwix.net >>X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news.sisna.com!pants.skycache.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.campuscwix.net!geomac >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.dec:469 >> >>For Sale >> >>We have just upgraded our editorial front end system and our business >>system an have the following surplus equipment. >> >>25 - 286 PCs mostly AST with thicknet network cards, some VGA cards, and >>hard disk >> drives >>7 - 386 PCs AST but some generic (some 3.5 drives but mostly 5.25 floppy >>drives) >>12 - black and white and VGA monitors (mixed) >>6 - Arc net hubs >> core tape backup units >> Keyboards (these things did not have mouse cards!) >>20+ Sealed boxes of DOS 3.3 and Xywrite (word processor) >> >>2 - Varityper 5000 >>2 - Tegra XP 1000 >>2 - RTI 8400 Compugraphics emulators >>Several Racal modems >> >>DEC PDP 11/44 mainframe unit >>2 - RA 80 Drives >>1- TU 80 9 track tape unit >>Some VT 100 terminals >> >>This system was a newspaper editorial system from ATEX (formally DeWars Systems) >>The PDP was a newspaper business system. >> >>Want to move all of it, not inclined to separate. >>Located in Hopkinsville KY >> >>Everything was working when we decommissioned it on 8/28/99 And we were >>putting out a daily paper and several weekly papers with it for 9 years. >> >>Make an offer (please) >>Will consider donating to school or other institution who can use this stuff >> >> >>For More Information Please Call >>Richard Shepherd or George McCouch At: >>Kentucky New Era Inc. 270-886-4444 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

26 years, 10 months

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This is getting annoying

by bill＠chipware.com

Once again, no messages since yesterday 8/31/99 at 5 PM. Am I the only one who keeps getting kicked off? Bill Sudbrink

26 years, 10 months

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haggling (was Re: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet))

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> back. The rollers and paint were even in good condition. After chatting a >> bit, the seller said we should make an offer. While I was pondering if he >> would take $50 or $100 for it and if I could justify that (I was in grad >> school at the time), my wife piped up and asked "How about $15?" My college >> chum and I just stood dumbfounded while the seller thought for a second and >> said "Ok." And that's how I ended up with my rack. > >I've found that making lowball offers sometimes is the *best* way to get >things from certain surplus outfits. Two places that I frequent seem to have >a tendency to accept offers for less than $25, but reject offers above that >amount (on similar sorts of items). My guess is that if you offer over $25, >they start to think that the item is valuable and that they should get a lot >of money for it. OTOH, I've learned that if you want to get rid of something, you shouldn't necessarily just say "it's free, come and get it". After all, many potential takers think that if it's free, it can't be all that desirable. But attach a price tag and all of a sudden folks want to come up and wheel and deal! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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Monitor tilt - return it?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Primarily for nostalgic reasons, I want a 9" video monitor and terminal keyboard on one of my systems. I've had the Micro-Term ACT-IVa keyboard for some time, and recently got a 9" monitor to go with it. When I powered up the monitor and keyboard, I noticed that the display is slightly twisted (I think the correct term is trapezoid, where the distance >from the top of the left end of the printed line to the top of the screen is not the same distance from the top right end of the same line to the top of the screen - the lines run downhill slightly). My question is - is this a tell-tale sign that indicates a worse problem is imminent? I don't mind the slight run downhill on the screen, but if that's a sign of worse to come, I'd just assume return the monitor and get a different one. There is no adjustment pot that I can see internal or external for this "twisting" effect. Thanks in advance! Jay West

26 years, 10 months

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HP DraftMaster I

by hrothgar＠total.net

Hi, I thought I'd break in amongst all the big-brained stuff about part design and announce to the world that I've garbage-picked a Hewlett Packard DraftMaster I (7595A). It was easy to get home because it was only two streets over, and the wheels roll nicely. It went downhill really well, so I'm considering entering it in next year's Soap Box Derby. I'm also planning on building some shelves into it, to justify its space requirements. The machine DOES work. I plugged it into my Amiga, and managed to get it to draw a bicycle from an old PD CAD package off a magazine disk. It keeps chewing on the flimsy paper I've got, though. It has an HPIB port on it, so I'll have to write a HPGL driver for my PET one of these days. ;) Anyone know how old this thing is? HP's web site lists "DraftMaster" as one of their trademarks, but I couldn't find much else out about it. I used to work as a CAD operator at one of the big engineering firms in downtown Montreal, so this is a cool find. -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar(a)total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/

26 years, 10 months

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HP DraftMaster I

by edick＠idcomm.com

The Draftmaster series was "current" in '88. We bought them for about $10K each in '88, though I routinely see them offered nowadays at $200. There are drivers for Windows, though I've never gotten them to work with my 7585, which was the heavier and similar model without the chart-feed (roll-fed paper). Pens from third parties are readily available and the device operates as either DCE or DTE via RS232, or HPIB. The models we bought for Martin Marietta were ETHERNET-interfaced, so that option is available as well. These have been "sucked" off the market by the vendors of vinyl signs, which can be cut from the roll-fed paper-backed vinyl stock >from which they're made. These are the signs you commonly see stuck to the inside of shop windows. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence <hrothgar(a)total.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 11:44 PM Subject: HP DraftMaster I >Hi, > >I thought I'd break in amongst all the big-brained stuff about part >design and announce to the world that I've garbage-picked a Hewlett >Packard DraftMaster I (7595A). > >It was easy to get home because it was only two streets over, and the >wheels roll nicely. > >It went downhill really well, so I'm considering entering it in next >year's Soap Box Derby. > >I'm also planning on building some shelves into it, to justify its space >requirements. > >The machine DOES work. I plugged it into my Amiga, and managed to get >it to draw a bicycle from an old PD CAD package off a magazine disk. It >keeps chewing on the flimsy paper I've got, though. > >It has an HPIB port on it, so I'll have to write a HPGL driver for my >PET one of these days. ;) > >Anyone know how old this thing is? HP's web site lists "DraftMaster" as >one of their trademarks, but I couldn't find much else out about it. > >I used to work as a CAD operator at one of the big engineering firms in >downtown Montreal, so this is a cool find. > >-- >Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: >hrothgar(a)total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ >

26 years, 10 months

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Byte 7/76 issue

by rcini＠msn.com

Hello, all: Does anyone have the 7/76 issue of Byte??? There's an article in it relating to AMS-80, a pseudo operating system/monitor for S100 machines. A related article, which I have, appeared in the 9/79 issue, the "Amsat-Golem-80." The AG80 article was effectively a product specification for a build-it-yourself Z80-based front-panel S100 machine. Seven pages of generalities. Arrrgh. As always, thanks. Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 10 months

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[HP3000-L] HP3000 Classics - Looking for a good home (fwd)

by lance＠costanzo.net

Sorry about this. Was meant to go only to Stan. Long day. At 04:47 PM 8/31/99 -0700, you wrote: >buncha junk! :) Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 lance(a)advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems http://www.advantinc.com

26 years, 10 months

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[HP3000-L] HP3000 Classics - Looking for a good home (fwd)

by lance＠costanzo.net

buncha junk! :) lance Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 lance(a)advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems http://www.advantinc.com

26 years, 10 months

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FSOT: Decmate II word processing SW

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I picked up three slip cases of DecMate II word processing software that I don't need. I'll sell it or trade it for something that I can use. The cases and manuals have some water damage and a few of the pages are stuck together but most of the damage is cosmetic. I didn't see any disks so it's cases and manuals only. Box 1: Word Processing, the Basics. Box 2: Word Processing options, Word Processing using Math. Box 3: Word Processing User's Guide. Make an offer if you're interested or it goes back to the dumpster. Joe

26 years, 10 months

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[HP3000-L] HP3000 Classics - Looking for a good home (fwd)

by sieler2＠allegro.com

Hi, Posted on the HP3000-L mailing list: Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:56:49 -0400 > From: Larry Folk <LarryFolk(a)KLINESTEEL.COM> > Subject: [HP3000-L] HP3000 Classics - Looking for a good home > > Looking for good homes for the following: > > 1 - HP3000 series 70 > 1 - HP3000 series 52 > 4 - 7937 disc drives > 3 - 7963 disc drives > 1 - 2617 line printer > 1 - 7974 tape drive > > All in working order....will be decommissioned soon! > > You pay packing/shipping cost and save us landfill space! > > Also have numerous 710 and 735 systems, multiplexers and miscellaneous > "stuff" available. > > ============================================================== > Larry Folk Kline Iron & Steel Co., Inc. > Information Systems Manager 1225 Huger Street > 803-251-8026 Fax 803-251-8080 Columbia, SC 29201 > Mailto:larryfolk@klinesteel.com http://www.klinesteel.com > ============================================================== -- Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler/

26 years, 10 months

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FPGAs and PDP-11's

by edick＠idcomm.com

These problems have arisen from the unfortunate fact that they're easy to fix, though it's not very efficient use of the silicon. Since there's plenty of it, not many of us are concerned about that any more. Since there's a pipeline register in every CLB, you might as well build your circuits as synchronous ones. See my comments below, please. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 7:28 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >> In times pretty much gone by, one ran the risk of having the FPGA pinout >> change due to rerouting. Todays tools generally support pin-locking, i.e. >> firmly binding the signal to a predefined pin, shuffling other resources >> instead of reassigning pins when rerouting a circuit. This can, however, >> impact timing. READ THE FINE PRINT! > >Any FPGA tool that doesn't let you assign pins yourself is fundamentally >broken IMHO. The whole point of an FPGA is that you can make changes to >the logic (and thus fix bugs) without having to redesign the PCB. > Choosing the pins at the outset isn't as important to me as choosing to have them remain what they become after the first route. > >Every FPGA tool I've used has let you assign a pin number to the I/O points. > >However, that's not what I was refering to. I was talking about the fact >that when you make a change to the circuit, the compiler will probably >re-route internal signals. Adding an output counts as a change, of course. > >And when it re-routes signals, said signals will change in timing. And >when that happens, you have the possibility, in a badly designed circuit, >of getting glitches. > I'd make two points about these comments. They're right, of course, seen in the proper light, but they're really not the case at all. Taking the second one first, synchronous circuits do not produce glitches. By definition, the outputs are clocked at the same rate as the inputs, which are, if properly designed, clocked so as to let the signals settle between clocks, there can be no glitches. Outputs are clocked, not gated. It's possible to build circuits which have glitches, but not recommended. With a synchronous circuit, the only concern, and it is significant, is the clock skew. Careful planning and cautious design can minimize/mitigate this risk. Additionally, though my experience with this phenomenon is limited, it was considered advisable to let the software determine the pinouts on the first pass through the routing process, thereby making the timing constraints the primary priority for the router to manage. Subsequent routes, particularly changes to other parts of the circuits than the critical pinouts, can be allowed to be automatically assigned as well later, but the important pins held constant, or locked. Since these routing algorithms do strange things, it's still possible you won't get the pin assignment you prefer, your odds are improved in this way. > >[....] > >> >I've done this many times (in fact, IMHO it's the _only_ way to see what >> >an FPGA circuit is really doing), but a word of warning : >> > >> >When you add the extra outputs, you recompile the circuit and probably >> >change the routing of some signals. Now, these signals will therefore >> >suffer different routing delays which means that glitches may move about, >> >appear 'from nowhere' or vanish. > Glitches can only occur when transient signals are propagated through a combinatorial stage. If circuits are pipelined correctly (meaning for the circuit in particular, not according to some cookbook) decoders' inputs will be registered, and their outputs will also be registered, hence, they can't generate glitches. Routing delays must be considered, and the skew of the clock can, therefore engender routing races, but these must be taken into account when computing the system clock rate. The clock must be chosen such that it doesn't allow such glitching. Metastability can also become a risk when different segments of a circuit are clocked with different generations of the same clock or with entirely different ones. Mitigation for those hazards must also be provided. > >> >Yes, I know that a well-designed FPGA circuit won't have problems with >> >routing delays. But if you're new to FPGA design, especially if you've >> >done a lot with TTL, you won't expect your wires to give sigificant >> >(longer than switching time of a gate) delays. > >-tony >

26 years, 10 months

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old com 64 (fwd)

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

Here's someone with a C64 system they want to get rid of. Please contact the owner for details. Reply-to: NHansen132(a)aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 15:04:08 EDT From: NHansen132(a)aol.com To: vcf(a)vintage.org Subject: old com 64 I have a Commodore 64 with monitor, ram expansion, floppy drive and software. Are you interested? ;~) Nancy Hansen~nhansen132(a)aol.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 08/17/99]

26 years, 10 months

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Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)?

by bill＠chipware.com

Has my subscription been dropped again? Sorry for the noise. Bill Sudbrink

26 years, 10 months

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Some Classic stuff

by walraven＠multiwareinc.com

I have the following classic equipment that is looking for a good home: DEC Rainbow with software and LA50 printer DEC Professional 380 + RT11 operating system Tektronix 4107A Graphics Terminal Falco Terminal Boxes of serial cables Boxes of mag tape Piles of 8" floppies Old software (10+ years) Complete VMS Doc Set (Yes, it is over 10 years old.) Lots of RT-11 Documentation, including Fortran manuals (I developed RT-11 Fortran77 for Digital.) If you can take it away, it is yours. I'm located in Davis, CA, which is near Sacramento. -- Robert Walraven walraven(a)multiwareinc.com http://www.multiwareinc.com Multiware, Inc. Phone: 530-756-3291 216 F Street, Suite 161 Fax: 530-756-3292 Davis, CA 95616

26 years, 10 months

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Greetings...

by bo＠zimmers.net

Hello folks, This constitutes my first 120 seconds of belonging to this group, and I hope to gather a great amount of amusement and education from being here. I'm just writing to introduce myself, and to brandish a question in yalls general direction. My name is Bo Zimmerman. I've been collecting computers (and calculators, and disk drives, and printers, etc, etc) made by Commodore Business Machines for about three years, with my primary interest being programming and tinkering (upgrading, networking, etc.) If anyone is amused by such things, I maintain a web site of my collection at http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/index.html. My question concerns insurance, and is the reason I was referred to this fine gathering. Does anyone here carry insurance against fire (or theft?!) for their collections? Thanks, Bo Zimmerman

26 years, 10 months

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Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Hey! You're supposed to read all that stuff! It's important educational material! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme(a)aol.com <Glenatacme(a)aol.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)? >In a message dated 08/30/1999 9:09:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >cfandt(a)netsync.net writes: > >> Upon the date 06:14 PM 8/30/99 +0000, Joe said something like: >> >No, it's just been unusally quite. Maybe we need another good flame war >to >> >liven things up! >> >> NO! Please. > >Well, it was touch & go for a bit with Tony & Richard ;>) > >Glen Goodwin >0/0

26 years, 10 months

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Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)?

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 08/30/1999 9:09:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cfandt(a)netsync.net writes: > Upon the date 06:14 PM 8/30/99 +0000, Joe said something like: > >No, it's just been unusally quite. Maybe we need another good flame war to > >liven things up! > > NO! Please. Well, it was touch & go for a bit with Tony & Richard ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 10 months

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<Dead Media Working Note 43.1> on Landfilled Lisas

by jfoust＠threedee.com

This is an antique computer related note from the Dead Media mailing list. - John >Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:39:44 -0500 >To: Dead Media List <dead-media(a)fringeware.com> >From: Richard Kadrey <kadrey(a)sirius.com> >Reply-To: <kadrey(a)sirius.com> >Subject: <Dead Media Working Note 43.1> > >Dead medium: the Apple Lisa > >From: Bruce Sterling (bruces(a)well.com) > >Source: American Heritage of Invention and Technology magazine, Summer >1999, Vol 15 Number 1, page 64, article by Tim Hall > >"Poor Little Lisa" by Tim Hall > > "One September day in 1989 about 2,700 Apple Lisa computers were >unceremoniously buried in a landfill in Logan, Utah. In an industry where >rapid obsolescence is not only the norm but a goal, the mass burial elicited >few tears from anyone except insiders. Yet this prosaic event put an end to >perhaps the greatest and most revolutionary failure in the history of >computing. > > "Apple Computer had been founded in Los Altos, California, in 1976. By >1978 it was enjoying tremendous growth and vying for dominance in the >nascent home-computer market. The company's newest project, code-named Lisa >(supposedly after the daughter of Steve Jobs, one of Apple's cofounders), >was meant to be the successor to the extremely popular Apple II. After Jobs >visited the Xerox Corporation's Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) twice in >late 1979, however, those plans changed radically. > > "Many essentials of modern computing, including networking and laser >printers, were developed at PARC. What caught Jobs's fancy was a prototype >machine named Alto that had an array of features never before seen on a >computer. Its heart was the Graphical User Interface (GUI). (...) > > "Jobs thought Alto was the future of computing, and he reportedly ran >around the PARC research room saying so. Xerox's brass, however, did not >share his enthusiasm. Since it would have sold for an estimated $400,000 >per unit, Alto was never meant to be mass-marketed. Xerox considered it an >unmarketable, if fascinating, anomaly. > > "Undeterred, Jobs and his team set about incorporating the spirit of >Alto's GUI == along with its rodent accessory == into Lisa. After nearly >200 many-years of work and $50 million, Lisa made her debut on January 19, >1983. She was a marvel. Directories were represented with line drawings of >a manila folder, and there was even a little wastebasket for disposing of >unwanted ones. (...) > > "Apple had high hopes for Lisa, but there were problems. First of all, >there was the price: nearly $10,000. Also, because of the technological >sophistication and memory requirements of the GUI and the other features >Apple stuffed into her, the 48-pound Lisa was not only chubby but awkward >and slow. Faced with mounting competition from cheaper, zippier machines, >she quickly fell behind. Even the machine's friendly moniker worked against >it; corporate managers balked at purchasing a computer with a little girl's >name when they could have a much more impressive-sounding PDP11/45. Jobs >had estimated that Apple would sell 50,000 Lisas in the first year, but it >took nearly two years to reach that goal. > > "After re-engineering and improvements, a Lisa II was introduced. The >name was later changed to XL, which insiders joked stood for 'Xtra Lisas' in >the inventory. Jobs, meanwhile, was working on a secret new machine, one >that was rumored to be smaller, faster and less than half as expensive as >Lisa. The rumors only hastened Lisa's demise. Unwanted and unappreciated, >Lisa was abandoned in the spring of 1985 in favor of Jobs's new computer, >which was called Macintosh. > > "Apple consigned its remaining inventory to Sun Remarketing of Utah, >which had some success refurbishing and modernizing the Lisas with >up-to-date technology. But eventually this, too, came to a halt when Apple >decided to take a tax write-off on its unsold inventory. In September 1989, >almost a decade after Jobs had first witnessed the Alto in action, the last >2,700 Lisas were ignominously buried in an unmarked grave, closing the book >on the first mass-marketed computer to use the standard on which virtually >all computers would run." > > >

26 years, 10 months

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Arete/ARIX interest?

by edick＠idcomm.com

I hope you're not stating that 9-track drives are not available as SCSI devices, because that's not the case. Those are what kept me from using the S-100 to CIPHER 9-track interface I got some 20 years ago. SCSI was just easier. I've never seen an SMD-interfaced 9-track drive either, though that's not inconceivable. I'd be interested in knowing how this turns out, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: David R. Dick <drd(a)mv.mv.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Arete/ARIX interest? >> >> >> Is the 9-track a SCSI device? Where are you located? >> Are you looking for a "computer rescue" or to sell these units? > >9 track is *not* a SCSI device. If it is possible for the >tape drive to be SMD, it probably is, because that's what >the disk drives are. > >The machines are in Nashua, New Hampshire and this >is definitely a case of rescue. > >David Dick >Software Innovations >[doing UNIX since 1981] > <snip>

26 years, 10 months

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FPGAs and PDP-11's

by edick＠idcomm.com

It's certainly possible to buy adapters for some of the larger qfp packages, and making one is a REAL pain in the *ss. It's bad enough that these adapters, by and large, don't have a solder mask, so you have to wear a lupe and check all your solder joints twice . . . Making a device which allows you to "play" with an FPGA is a really useful trick. You can bring out whicever signals you think you need, but you need to be aware of the timing differences between the internal signal and the one you're allowed to "see" from outside. I/O blocks generate delay and are probably best registered. Likewise, if you use an external signal to stimulate some internal mechanism, it is wise to bring it in through a pair of synchronous registers in order to avoid metastability due to setup or hold time violations. In times pretty much gone by, one ran the risk of having the FPGA pinout change due to rerouting. Todays tools generally support pin-locking, i.e. firmly binding the signal to a predefined pin, shuffling other resources instead of reassigning pins when rerouting a circuit. This can, however, impact timing. READ THE FINE PRINT! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 5:56 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >> >> There are packaging options which might be utilized to help you in "scoping" >> out your circuit. One of many complaints I have about FPGA's is that they >> have far too many pins to suit me. Well, since there are lots of pins, you >> can obtain a socketable adapter for the package and then work your way >> through the design, changing the "bond-out" by routing the signals you want >> to compare to I/O blocks associated with otherwise unused pins. That way >> you might be able to help yourself figure out strange timing effects between >> internal and external signals, perhaps even allowing you to see the inner >> workings at least to some extent. > >I've done this many times (in fact, IMHO it's the _only_ way to see what >an FPGA circuit is really doing), but a word of warning : > >When you add the extra outputs, you recompile the circuit and probably >change the routing of some signals. Now, these signals will therefore >suffer different routing delays which means that glitches may move about, >appear 'from nowhere' or vanish. > >Yes, I know that a well-designed FPGA circuit won't have problems with >routing delays. But if you're new to FPGA design, especially if you've >done a lot with TTL, you won't expect your wires to give sigificant >(longer than switching time of a gate) delays. > > >> >> The handiest package I've run into for these is the PLCC84, for which you >> can obtain a socket compatible with a wire-wrap adapter. That would allow >> you to do what I described above without interfering with the 40-odd signals >> you might want to inject into your existing application. This same thing >> might be achievable with a larger package, but I have some doubts about >> making the transition from the FPGA package to a wire-wrap socket. You >> might have to make an adapter PCB or buy one from Samtech or Emulation >> Technology. Those get expensive. > > >You can get SIL strips of wire-wrap socket pins that you can cut to >length. If you solder/glue these to a suitable piece of matrix board you >can make up a socket to hold just about any PGA chip, or indeed a >solder-type PLCC socket. > >Most FPGAs (certainly from Xilinx) are available in PGA packages -- at a >price. > >BGA and PQFP are a little harder to handle, and you may well have to make >up an adapter board. > >-tony >

26 years, 10 months

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Copy of Windows for Pen Computing

by rcini＠msn.com

Hello, all: Does anyone have a copy of Windows (3.1) for Pen Computing that they could spare?? A friend of mine got a Telxon tablet computer with no software, but supposedly it uses PenWin. Thanks! Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 10 months

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VAXstation 3100/30 Questions

by djenner＠halcyon.com

I think this qualifies as "Classic", since the VS3100 is based on the CVAX chip set from 1987. I have a few questions which maybe someone on the list can answer. I picked up a VS3100/30, model VS42A-AA, with 24MB RAM. The material I have found on the Web says this computer should be expandable to 32MB of RAM, but I don't see how. It now has 4MB on the motherboard and two daughter boards with 12MB and 8MB. The two daughter boards connect together with only one connecting to the motherboard. Where would you attach another board with 8MB more memory? Although the system came with a hard drive and OpenVMS, I got the hobbyist OpenVMS CD-ROM and want to install it on another hard drive that I've added. The drive is an IBM Model 0663-H, which is a 1GB (slightly less, actually, if you count in base 2) drive. The specs for the drive say it is "compatible" with the VS3100 when a configuration is made using a SCSI command (which I have no way of doing, of course--it must be done by a driver). I connect the drive, the VS3100 console sees it fine, and then I try to do a low-level format using Test 75. At various times (varies randomly) into the formatting progress I get an error "PV_SCS_FMT_ERR#2", which I have no idea of its meaning. What does this mean? Is there any termination on the internal SCSI A bus on this machine, or does the last drive on the cable need to do it? (The IBM Model 0633-H doesn't have any, and it was on the middle connector.) Thanks for any help. Dave

26 years, 10 months

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PDP era and a question

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded remarks below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:04 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> >> addressing only the comment quoted below . . . >> >> Really, Tony, I think you overemphasize the importance of the individual >> user to the semiconductor manufacturers. The level of competition for the >> FPGA business has escalated to where the development software, previously >> costing several K-bucks US, now costs as little as $100, and, in the case of >> ALTERA, is quite free. Now, that's not the complete package with all the >> bells and whistles, but it's enough to build a device from start to finish. > >You've misunderstood me... > >There are several points here. > >Firstly, it doesn't matter how cheap the software is if you can't use it. It depends more on how you define "can't" than anything else, though. >To run one of those 'free' development systems, I'd have to get a new PC >that I couldn't maintain and an 'OS' that I would find unpleasant to use. I had the same feeling when just about all the useable CAD/CAE software was limited to VMS and UNIX. I bought and limped along with what I could get for the PC, back then using DOS and customized drivers for the appropriate display, which, back then, alone, cost about as much as my then new logic analyzer. What that is, Tony, is a matter of preference. YOU have to decide where YOU spend your money. In yesterday's newspaper I noted that the local discount house (Best-Buy for those who care) was offering a major-brand 350 MHz Celeron-based computer system without monitor but with AGP video, 6.4 GB HDD, 64 MB memory, CDROM, FDD, v.90 modem, keyboard, all for $399 US. A really nice (I recently bought one when the "appropriate display" (19") mentioned above developed a margin problem.) 17" monitor for $199. That means that for what I typically earn in a couple or three days after taxes and expenses, I can buy a whole computer system capable of doing this FPGA stuff. I recently read that the folks who sell these FPGA's have no problem at all giving you the necessary data to enable you to configure their parts. They won't give you a disassembly tool or whatever that would be, but they'll tell you enough so you can build your own configuration tools to support their parts. They won't hold your hand and they won't debug your work, but they will give you a spec so you don't have to buy their software or use it. >The total cost would (instead) buy some useful physical test equipment or >tools. > I bought a 20-year old 250 MHz 'scope not long ago with what that system at Best Buy would cost. Now, I shopped for a year in order to find the thing, but that's what I got for $600. > >Secondly, I like all my software to be open-source so that I can fix >bugs. Now, I can quite understand why commercial software isn't like >this. What I am commenting on is the fact that I _can't_ write my own >FPGA tools if I wanted to. > All software is open-source if you have the dough to buy the sources. Not all of us are willing to pay the required 6.23*10^23 bucks for what we'd otherwise get for less than $1k for just the objects. > >Let me give you an example. If I want to program a PDP11 in assembler, I >can either buy the DEC assembler (which, quite rightly, costs money), or >I can get down the manual and either hand-assemble the code or write an >assembler myself. I can add in whatever features I want in the latter >case as well. > >With FPGA tools, you can't write your own. Manufacturers have given a >number of reasons, most of them (IMHO) bogus as to why they won't release >the configuration specs. But with one exception (the XC6200 series), now >discontinued, there has never been an FPGA (or CPLD) where you can go >from schematic/description to a finished chip without some 'undocumented' >process. It's like having a processor where the binary opcodes are not >documented anywhere, and where the manufacture actively prevents this >sort of information getting out. > Again, it's just a matter of preference. Most people get by this hurdle with little trouble. > >FWIW, I have 'hand assembled' configurations for the XC6216. It wasn't >that hard, and writing a few simple tools would have made it a lot easier. > > >> >> I really doubt that it would turn out to be illegal to take the old 11-70 or >> whatever schematic and essentially clone it in an FPGA, but I doubt a clever >> rebuilder would want to do that anyway. It might be either equally good in > >You wouldn't. FPGA design is most certainly not the same as TTL-type >design, and simply translating circuits will result in something that >doesn't work. > >> The technology in FPGA's these days is such that it enables devices to >> operate between 10 and 50 times the speed of the old TTL logic designed in > >Hmmm.. A good TTL design will go at 50MHz, no trouble. FPGAs are between >500MHz and 2.5GHz? That sounds high to me. It certainly sounds high >compared to the real-world speeds (not what the manufacturers claim) for >common FPGA devics. A factor of 2 or 3 up on TTL, maybe. > There's a brocheure lying about here somewhere from a company which offers a XILINX look-alike which operates with delays of about half those of the fastest XILINX, though there's some question about the universality of that claim, but they certainly explain why their routing delays are shorter. Prop-delays of 1ns are claimed for the combinatorial logic in several vendors' parts, and the claim of 25 MHz for 7400-series TTL was quite generous. It would propagate into a light load and single flops would keep up at 25 MHz. I remember a countdown chain which generated a bunch of system timing from a 24.576 MHz clock, which was a harmonic of nearly all the telecom clocks as well as baud rates. That one didn't work until one substituted 74S-series TTL. HTTL and LSTTL wouldn't do it. The clock-to-Q of the flops just wouldn't meet the required setup times. Now, it worked fine once we rebuilt the counter chain so it ran at half that rate. Lots of '70's TTL MSI would work at rates in excess of 30 MHz, but only for small circuits. You could run one shift register at that rate, but if you needed to shift longer words, you might be in trouble. It was even worse with counters. If you then needed to decode the outputs of a 16-bit counter . . . you see my point, I'm sure. These same problems are encountered in FPGA's, but the circuits whose timing is critical can be planned out in such a way that the penalties for routing delays are minimized. What's more, because adding a pipeline register doesn't mean putting another package on the board, you can do that. Pipeline registers increase operating frequency while increasing the latency. They make decoding much safer. >-tony >

26 years, 10 months

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RX02 Head Gap adjustment

by steve.lubbers＠barco.com

Hi All,

26 years, 10 months

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FPGAs and PDP-11's

by edick＠idcomm.com

There are packaging options which might be utilized to help you in "scoping" out your circuit. One of many complaints I have about FPGA's is that they have far too many pins to suit me. Well, since there are lots of pins, you can obtain a socketable adapter for the package and then work your way through the design, changing the "bond-out" by routing the signals you want to compare to I/O blocks associated with otherwise unused pins. That way you might be able to help yourself figure out strange timing effects between internal and external signals, perhaps even allowing you to see the inner workings at least to some extent. The handiest package I've run into for these is the PLCC84, for which you can obtain a socket compatible with a wire-wrap adapter. That would allow you to do what I described above without interfering with the 40-odd signals you might want to inject into your existing application. This same thing might be achievable with a larger package, but I have some doubts about making the transition from the FPGA package to a wire-wrap socket. You might have to make an adapter PCB or buy one from Samtech or Emulation Technology. Those get expensive. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 12:03 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's > >> They're wide PDP-8s. Or rather, the PDP-8 is a narrow PDP-4. > >I know that! ;) what I don't know is all them little details I know so >well for PDP-8. > >> > I would want a machine that would fit in nx4 or nx8 format parts. >> >> Doesn't particularly help if you're putting it in an FPGA. > >Why would I want to use them... &-) I was thinking interms of machine >that work in "ttl" or maybe GALs. FPGAs want those funny sockets to hold >all those pins and they are a bear to to probe a particular gate under a >scope after delidding it. ;) > >Actually a discussion of PDP-4/7/9/15 would be of interest as those are >thos ones I really do not know beyond trivial. > >Allison >

26 years, 10 months

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Arete/ARIX interest?

by drd＠mv.mv.com

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26 years, 10 months

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Arete/ARIX interest?

by drd＠mv.mv.com

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Arete/ARIX interest?

by drd＠mv.mv.com

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Arete/ARIX interest?

by drd＠mv.mv.com

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Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)?

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

On Monday, August 30, 1999 5:26 PM, Bill Sudbrink [SMTP:bill@chipware.com] wrote: > Has my subscription been dropped again? > Sorry for the noise. > > Bill Sudbrink > > Bill, I have been receiving some posts but, the quanity has certainly dropped off. The S/N ratio has been pretty high lately. That's a good thing :-) Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 10 months

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PDP era and a question

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 4:40 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> > >> >Firstly, it doesn't matter how cheap the software is if you can't use it. >> >> >> It depends more on how you define "can't" than anything else, though. > >"Can't" is quite simple : I can't execute the software on that >disk/CD-ROM on any computer that I currently own. Period. > >> >[...] > >> In yesterday's newspaper I noted that the local discount house (Best-Buy for >> those who care) was offering a major-brand 350 MHz Celeron-based computer >> system without monitor but with AGP video, 6.4 GB HDD, 64 MB memory, CDROM, >> FDD, v.90 modem, keyboard, all for $399 US. A really nice (I recently > >They're a little more in the UK, although I think I've seen similar >machines advertised here for \pounds 399 or thereabouts. > >> bought one when the "appropriate display" (19") mentioned above developed a >> margin problem.) 17" monitor for $199. That means that for what I typically >> earn in a couple or three days after taxes and expenses, I can buy a whole >> computer system capable of doing this FPGA stuff. > >OK for you. Remember I can't get a job. After 'essentials', I would have >to save for about a year to get a machine like that. And there are other >things I put somewhat higher on my priority list as I already have plenty >of useable computer systems for everything else I want to do. > Well, first of all, I think it's nice that the mfg's of these devices have made it possible to do this work on machines costing less than a year's pay, and if there were enough business to justify it, they'd make it possible for you to build their devices on your HP calculator or whatever you prefer. It's just a question of how badly you want to do it. If I didn't want to spend the necessary money, I'd not be able to do it either. Now, I don't know why you can't get a job. There are lots of people here in the US who are in the same boat. If you have some physical disability, or mental/emotional impairment, though, there are programs here and I'd be surprised if there weren't some similar programs in the UK to "help" you get a low-cost PC if there are any indications at all that you'd be able to produce useful work translatable in to substantial gainful activity with it at your disposal. However, if you can't get a job because you categorically refuse to learn to use the PC because you find the Microsoft OS repugnant, I'd predict you'll remain so. > >Please note, I am not saying that the FPGA manufacturers should support >all the possible choices of machine and OS. Just that I wish that _one_ >of them would provide enough information for me to support them myself. > The reality of the matter is that these device vendors, of whom I would assume it could be said they're in a good position to make such a determination, have decided that it's worth their effort to invest the effort and money in creating support tools for the PC running Windows 9x and not the PDP-8S or whatever, running something else. This is not my preference either, since I like and trust DOS much more than the WINDOWS varieties, but then, they no longer put out tools for the MAC either, not that I'd use one even if they were free. >> >> I recently read that the folks who sell these FPGA's have no problem at all >> giving you the necessary data to enable you to configure their parts. They >> won't give you a disassembly tool or whatever that would be, but they'll > >Interesting. That's exactly the opposite of my experiences with Xilinx >when I used the official toolkit in my last job (XC3000 and XC4000 parts >mostly). > >There was a _supplied_ program that would take a configuration bitstream >and turn it back into a CLB + interconnect map - essentially a >disassembler. Of course turning that map into a schematic was a lot of >work, but the 'secret' part was there. > >But no way would they tell us what any of the bits in the configuration >file actually meant. > >I am told they might have supplied some documentation under an NDA, but >that's no use for open-source software, of course. > Well, it's not likely that you'll encounter much cooperation in your effort to convince the world to share its secrets. These days, when patents are of no use because the market window is shorter than the delay getting to court, the only way people can defend what they perceive to be their turf is by keeping it "close to the vest" like a hand of cards. > >> >Secondly, I like all my software to be open-source so that I can fix >> >bugs. Now, I can quite understand why commercial software isn't like >> >this. What I am commenting on is the fact that I _can't_ write my own >> >FPGA tools if I wanted to. >> > >> All software is open-source if you have the dough to buy the sources. Not > .>Not really. Even if I could buy a source license, that wouldn't give me >the right to pass the sources around. About the only way to get to do >that is to buy the company (:-)). > It's absolutely open source, if that's how you want to handle it, once you buy the right to do so. I don't mean buy a copy. I mean buy ALL the rights. Once you've acquired all the rights, by paying for them, I doubt you'll want to give them away by making them freely distributable. >> all of us are willing to pay the required 6.23*10^23 bucks for what we'd >> otherwise get for less than $1k for just the objects. > >Again, I am not asking for the 'official' sources. Just for the ability >to write my own. > Perhaps if you inquire about obtaining those rights, you'll see what value they are perceived to represent. Dealing with the numbers helps put things in to prespective. I'm surprised that there was a commonly available scf2xnf (or whatever it was called) translator, since that essentially reverse engineered your product for your competitor, but it would surprise me even more for the vendor to provide you the ability to see how they've enhanced their parts if that's reflected in their configuration files. Nevertheless, perhaps you need to back away from your devotion to the absolute notion of fully open source in favor of a really efficient, particularly cost-efficient, PDP whatever you want to build. If you need to have sources in order to fix what you consider to be an annoying bug in the software tools with which the FPGA is to be devised, I'd point out that noone else is able to fix it either. Sometimes it's necessary to live with those "bugs" which annoy you most. > >-tony >

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