26 May
1999
26 May
'99
4:48 p.m.
Hello Classiccmp.
I recently acquired a nice, rust-free, mostly-original 11/45 from
an old lisp hacker in Los Altos Hills, CA. He told me that it had been
running the last time he'd powered it up, which was in 1984 IIRC, but
sadly, something has gone awry and it won't run now, though it seems to be
close. Here's a brief summary of its status:
It was originally a five-rack system with each rack containing the
controllers for the housed peripherals. The bus was chained through to
each rack on a BC05 and terminated with an M930. I only took the
processor and the TU-10 racks, so to make troubleshooting easier, I
reduced the system to only the CPU and memory boxes (memory is a 220KB
box from Monolithic Systems that has unibus in and out). The processor
has 12 KW of core as well, so I guess I could cut the bus down a bit more
for the purpose of debugging.
Mode of failure is such:
I powered up the shortened system and the front panel lights lit
[excitement]. Then I tried to examine some memory locations via the
panel, but when I hit HALT, the RUN light stayed lit. I tried every
combination of switches I thought was appropriate, but the RUN light
wouldn't go off. (Sounds like a simple bus error, really.) Upon
realizing that something was amiss, I decabled all the power connectors
from the logic and tested the voltages, which,
surprisingly, were all
about 6%-9% above spec (and I'm not too sure that my VOM
is accurate even
though it's analog). I didn't readjust the voltages, but reconnected the
power cables to the logic boards and retested the voltage levels. All
stayed about the same except for the -15VDC. It dropped to about 2V. Same
reading on both -15V regulators, by the way, and they seem to be connected
to different areas of the backplane, but I'm not sure. There seems to be
a high-pitch squeal (that sound of a laboring regulator) coming from
somewhere in the power supply cluster, but there's no smoke or crackling
sounds. I don't remember noticing the squeal with the power cables
disconnected, but that may be a subconscious hope and not a fact.
So that's my predicament. I don't have much time to mess with
this beautiful old girl, so I hope someone here can increase my repairing
efficiency.
Help me save this great piece of computing history. In return,
I'll at least give you an account on it if I get it to the point where
it'll run 2.9BSD or V7. I have SMD interfaces and disks, etc and
everything else I need (except a DELQA) to get it hooked up to the net.
Thank you in advance.
jake
27 May
27 May
9:52 a.m.
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28 May
28 May
2:55 p.m.
thank you, Tony!
I'll run through those steps and get back to you asap..
On Thu, 27 May 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
[..hack..]
Hello Classiccmp.
I recently acquired a nice, rust-free, mostly-original 11/45 from
You're in luck. The 11/45 was the first '11 that I obtained, and I have
the manuals for it (printset, maintenace manual, etc).
29 May
29 May
5:43 a.m.
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19 Jun
19 Jun
2:38 a.m.
Hey All, sorry I took so long to get back to this topic, but things have
been hectic and there's been no time for Geek Stuff. :( :( :(
I removed the extraneous things from the bus (namely the external box of
memory and the three core SUs), so now I have only the 11/45 backplane
with an M930 in the last slot. Still the same symptoms on the front
panel.
The probe of J14 revealed the following:
on 2&3: exactly 15VDC (this is the 15v source you ask about being
present and correct, isn't it?)
on 8 : about 4VDC
on 10 : Zero.
on 12 : about 4VDC
To answer a few of your other questions:
I don't have a KM11 maintenance board.
I have the 8-pin, flat power connectors on my CPU.
Which schematics are you using?
What should I do next?
thank you.
jake
On Thu, 27 May 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Hello Classiccmp.
I recently acquired a nice, rust-free, mostly-original 11/45 from
You're in luck. The 11/45 was the first '11 that I obtained, and I have
the manuals for it (printset, maintenace manual, etc).
an old lisp hacker in Los Altos Hills, CA. He
told me that it had been
running the last time he'd powered it up, which was in 1984 IIRC, but
sadly, something has gone awry and it won't run now, though it seems to be
It can be got to run again. I am certain of that.
I am going to assume that you don't have the KM11 maintenance board,
useful though it would be.
has 12 KW of core as well, so I guess I could cut
the bus down a bit more
for the purpose of debugging.
You don't need _any_ memory to start with. As this is an 11/45, the core
can't be on the processor backplane (which has special slots for
MOS/bipolar boards only). So stick the M930 in the top of the rearmost
slot (slot 28 IIRC) of the CPU backplane for the moment. You'll not be
able to do a lot, but the CPU will at least talk to the frontpanel in
that mode if everything is working right.
Mode of failure is such:
I powered up the shortened system and the front panel lights lit
[excitement]. Then I tried to examine some memory locations via the
panel, but when I hit HALT, the RUN light stayed lit. I tried every
That is a classic indication on the 11/45. If one of ACLO or DCLO (I
forget which) is asserted, the CPU microcode goes into a tight loop and
won't listen to the panel.
This is either something on the bus pulling one of those lines, or a
fault in the PSU/wiring.
combination of switches I thought was
appropriate, but the RUN light
wouldn't go off. (Sounds like a simple bus error, really.) Upon
realizing that something was amiss, I decabled all the power connectors
from the logic and tested the voltages, which, surprisingly, were all
about 6%-9% above spec (and I'm not too sure that my VOM is accurate even
Yes, the old power modules will rise a bit off-load. That is nothing to
worry about.
Which version power cableform do you have? Old machines have a
distribution PCB inside the CPU box with 8 pin mate-n-lock (flat)
connectors on it. Later machines have a distribution panel on the frame
at the top right of the CPU with 6 and 15 pin connectors on it.
I have manuals for both types, BTW.
though it's analog). I didn't readjust
the voltages, but reconnected the
power cables to the logic boards and retested the voltage levels. All
stayed about the same except for the -15VDC. It dropped to about 2V. Same
reading on both -15V regulators, by the way, and they seem to be connected
This you aare going to _love_...
There are 3 -15V sources in an 11/45 PSU. There's an H745 regulator in
both power supplies (and they do, indeed feed different parts of the
machine). There's also a -15V feed from the power control board in the
lower PSU (this board generates what is normally considered to be a +15V
rail. On the lower PSU, the +ve side goes to ground, and the -ve side to
the rest of the machine).
There is also a +15V supply from the top PSU power control board. This is
needed by the H745 regulators. Is this pressent and correct?
Looking at the schematic, it appears that if DCLO is asserted (low), then
Q3 on this board will turn on. This will turn on Q2 and shut down the
+15V regulator. Aha.... But only if DCLO is asserted by the PSU, not by
anything else in the machine.
Start on J4/P14 (12 pin mate-n-lock) on the top PSU. On the transformer
housing at the front of the PSU, not on the regualtor blocks.
Pins 2 and 3 are the +15V output (They're linked together inside the
PSU). Pin 12 is DCLO (this is pulled up by resistors on the bus
terminator, so you must have the rest of the machine connected). Pin 8
and 10 (NOT commoned inside the PSU) are the ACLO pins.
Let me know how you get on. As I said, I have all the schematics of this
machine (including the PSU), and I've repaired mine on the odd occasion...
-tony
10:03 a.m.
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20 Jun
20 Jun
2:40 a.m.
On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
That's right. I rechecked the outputs and inputs on those H745s and it's
definitely getting +15 on the input, but not giving -15 on pin 8. It's
putting out about -2v still. Same scenario on both H745s. When I unplug
the CPU connectors, all PSU voltages are good. Doesn't it sound like
something's shorting out to you? Still no smoke, BTW...
Oh, OK now I see what you're referring to. The little board way in the
back of the CPU cage... That one has three flat connectors. Very hard to
reach. My serial number is 273, by the way. Machine was originally
installed at Stanford.
OK, it _is_ an M930 terminator and not an M9302, then.
I was going to ask
you about that. The reason is that the later M9302 board can 'lock the
unibus' if there are grant problems. An M930 won't.
Actually I tried the 930 and the 9302, but no differences. I stayed with
the 930.
The probe of J14 revealed the following:
on 2&3: exactly 15VDC (this is the 15v source you ask about being
present and correct, isn't it?)
Sounds perfect to me. And yet _both_ H745s are giving no output?
There should be an H745 in the rear slot of the top PSU. It has an 8 pin
connector on top. Pin 1 is the -15V output. Pins 4 and 5 are a +15V
(control-ish) input.
Checked it out. All true except for pin one. Same deal on bottom H745.
I have the
8-pin, flat power connectors on my CPU.
I think _all_ 11/45 systems have the 8 pin connectors on the CPU
backplane. The difference is how the extra System Unit backplanes get power
On old machined (pre S/N 2000?) there was a PCB on the inside back of the
CPU box. It had a number of 8-pin flat connectors on it. The system units
plugged into that.
On later machines there was a board on top of the CPU fram on the RHS
(over the 'hole' that goes over the PSUs). System units had the
conventional 15 pin and 6 pin connectors. You mentioned that 'both -15V outputs are low'
Which pins of which
connectors are you measuring? At the PSU there are 3 -15V lines on my
diagrams - pin one of P21 (top PSU rear slot H745), pin one of P25
(bottom PSU, front slot, H745) and pin 4 of P22 (bottom PSU, 12 pin
connector on transformer housing). Which (any/all?) of those are missing?
I'm measuring pin 1 on the H745s. I also checked P22, pin4. It gave no
reading. Not even -2 volts like the other messed up -15 lines.
Here's a strange thing I noticed: On connector P7 (on the CPU power input
cluster), there are two disconnected wires, a purple and a yellow, from
pins 4 and 7. It looks like it was done intentionally as they're wrapped
around the other wires and tucked out of harm's way. Is this normal?
I assume it's OK to have completely unpopulated plots in the 11/45
backplane. There are a few without even grant continuity cards. I guess
this would be a good time to list what's in my first backplane:
front
top bottom
|A-----||B-----||C-----||D-----||E-----||F-----|
01 |M9301---------||M787--|
02 |M8114-----------------------------------------|
03 |M8115-----------------------------------------|
04 |M8112-----------------------------------------|
05 |M8113-----------------------------------------|
06 |M8100-----------------------------------------|
07 |M8101-----------------------------------------|
08 |M8102-----------------------------------------|
09 |M8103-----------------------------------------|
10 |M8104-----------------------------------------|
11 |M8105-----------------------------------------|
12 |M8106-----------------------------------------|
13 |M8108-----------------------------------------|
14 |M8107-----------------------------------------|
15 |M8109-------------------------|
16
17
18
19
20
21 |M8110-----------------------------------------|
22 |G401------------------------------------------|
23
24
25
26 |M9200---------| |G747A-|
27 |M9200---------||M7800-------------------------|
28 |M930----------| |G747A-|
rear
2:45 a.m.
That's right. I rechecked the outputs and inputs on those H745s and it's
definitely getting +15 on the input, but not giving -15 on pin 8. It's
putting out about -2v still. Same scenario on both H745s. When I unplug
the CPU connectors, all PSU voltages are good. Doesn't it sound like
something's shorting out to you? Still no smoke, BTW...
not giving -15 on pin ONE. Sorry.
9:44 a.m.
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12:43 p.m.
On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Interesting. That could be worth checking first.
Yeah, I checked this again. Totally dead. Just to be sure I'm on the
right wire, are all these connectors on the transformer segments of the
PSUs oriented the same way? If there's any doubt, I'll just have to dig
in there and check the inside of it I guess...
that's pretty goofy. you'd think they'd have done that on the
backplane
itself. It's not like a 920 where it spans 2 system units. oh well...
-tony
-jake
It's either a short or something is tripping the
crowbar in the H745. Do
you have the printset for this power supply module? (It's in a lot of CPU
printsets - the same module was used on the 11/40, 11/45, 11/34, etc).
I have it! In fact think I have all the prints for this machine. I just
don't know how to utilize them beyond setting dip switches. I checked out
the H745 printset and the one covering the PSU-to-backplane connections
and seemed to get the jist of it a bit. What is a crowbar?
You mentioned that 'both -15V outputs are low'
Which pins of which
connectors are you measuring? At the PSU there are 3 -15V lines on my
diagrams - pin one of P21 (top PSU rear slot H745), pin one of P25
(bottom PSU, front slot, H745) and pin 4 of P22 (bottom PSU, 12 pin
connector on transformer housing). Which (any/all?) of those are missing?
I'm measuring pin 1 on the H745s. I also checked P22, pin4. It gave no
reading. Not even -2 volts like the other messed up -15 lines. Silly question : Have you got mains to both PSUs and
are all the
breakers on.
Absolutely. They're both fanning and squealing away. Unfortunately the
red "on" lights seem to be spent. I should certainly replace those, but
haven't checked to see if they're a terribly special item..
The lower PSU (normally plugged into the left power
controller/stip) is
on all the time. That power controller should be switched to 'local on'.
The upper PSU is controlled by the panel key, and is plugged into the
other (right) strip. That power controller is set to remote.
I only have one H860 at the bottom. The lower PSU is plugged into
unswitched and the upper is plugged into switched. I confirmed that the
panel key does engage the H860 and the top PSU, though.
23
24
25
26 |M9200---------| |G747A-|
27 |M9200---------||M7800-------------------------|
Bus jumper (to link the 2 Unibuses) and serial (console, I guess) port
It is safe, BTW, to run it with some boards pulled.
The obvious things
that need -15V are the CPU clock, serial port, one of the floating point
boards (it has a clock on it), and maybe the memory.
If you suspect a short, pull the M7800 and the floating point board set
(all 4 boards) and see what happens.
Tried that, no change. Then I got crazy and kept pulling boards until
there was absolutely nothing left in the machine. I even removed the
power connectors from the core backplanes to be thorough. -15 line is
STILL hanging at -4v. GRRRR.
I deduced that the problem might have been in the backplane or CPU box
wiring, so I tried pulling the power cables off the CPU and rechecking,
but I must have done something different because now all the regulators
are lax (powered up and fanning but not producing). I want to see if the
-15 reg is still doing right when disconnected. It had been at the
outset.
Ugh.
21 Jun
21 Jun
7:53 a.m.
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30 Aug
30 Aug
2:02 p.m.
Hey Tony (Duell), [or anyone else interested for that matter]
want to help me with my 11/45 again? I just found out that I
again have too much time on my hands, so I'm ready to try some more. I've
moved to a new house and brought my entire pdp11 collection with me (most
of it is in the garage). I placed the '45 (w/ two TU10s, a stack of
RK05s, a rack of SMD disks, and a tek4015) in the 'great room' here and
there's plenty of room to tinker. BTW, it looks really cool with my red
walls. I think I'm going to keep it here permanently.
Here's a little refresher as to what we were on last time:
TIA
jake
PS. Is this a grant thing perhaps? What if somebody took a DMA device
out of one of the slots without replacing the jumper? Would it do this?
On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Hey All, sorry I took so long to get back to this topic, but things have
been hectic and there's been no time for Geek Stuff. :( :( :(
I removed the extraneous things from the bus (namely the external box of
memory and the three core SUs), so now I have only the 11/45 backplane
with an M930 in the last slot. Still the same symptoms on the front
panel.
OK, it _is_ an M930 terminator and not an M9302, then. I was going to ask
you about that. The reason is that the later M9302 board can 'lock the
unibus' if there are grant problems. An M930 won't.
The probe of J14 revealed the following:
on 2&3: exactly 15VDC (this is the 15v source you ask about being
present and correct, isn't it?)
Sounds perfect to me. And yet _both_ H745s are giving no output?
There should be an H745 in the rear slot of the top PSU. It has an 8 pin
connector on top. Pin 1 is the -15V output. Pins 4 and 5 are a +15V
(control-ish) input.
on 8 : about 4VDC
Sounds right.
on 10 : Zero.
Puzzling, but not necessarily a problem yet...
on 12 : about 4VDC
Sounds right again.
To answer a few of your other questions:
I don't have a KM11 maintenance board.
Pity. I didn't think you'd have one, but it was worth asking.
I have the 8-pin, flat power connectors on my
CPU.
I think _all_ 11/45 systems have the 8 pin connectors on the CPU
backplane. The difference is how the extra System Unit backplanes get power
On old machined (pre S/N 2000?) there was a PCB on the inside back of the
CPU box. It had a number of 8-pin flat connectors on it. The system units
plugged into that.
On later machines there was a board on top of the CPU fram on the RHS
(over the 'hole' that goes over the PSUs). System units had the
conventional 15 pin and 6 pin connectors.
Which schematics are you using?
I have the DEC field maintenance printset for the 11/45 (both versions).
What should I do next?
You mentioned that 'both -15V outputs are low' Which pins of which
connectors are you measuring? At the PSU there are 3 -15V lines on my
diagrams - pin one of P21 (top PSU rear slot H745), pin one of P25
(bottom PSU, front slot, H745) and pin 4 of P22 (bottom PSU, 12 pin
connector on transformer housing). Which (any/all?) of those are missing?
-tony
31 Aug
31 Aug
5:20 a.m.
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7:31 a.m.
On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
[snip]
With any PDP11 -- No, Any PDP -- No, any computer --
the first task is
to get the power supplies working. If you've got a missing/low power
rail, fix that first. There is no point in looking for logic faults
until the supplies are right.
Sure, but the thing is, the PS seems to be fine when there's no logic
plugged in. It puts out -15VDC right on the money. When I connect all
the mate-n'-locs to the logic cage, the voltage dies down severely.
Doesn't that indicate a 'logic' problem? Or at least a short somewhere on
the logic boards?
I'm going to try plugging in only one power jumper at a time,
testing after each one. Maybe that'll trim down the area the short's
coming from... Please stop me if this is going to blow something up. I
don't know what else to try at this point...
thanks.
jake
7:57 a.m.
At 03:31 PM 31/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
Sure, but the thing is, the PS seems to be fine when
there's no logic
plugged in. It puts out -15VDC right on the money. When I connect all
the mate-n'-locs to the logic cage, the voltage dies down severely.
Doesn't that indicate a 'logic' problem? Or at least a short somewhere on
the logic boards?
These are old switching supplies with outputs that vary by load.
Look on the -15VDC regulator. It'll be on the shelf behind the huge/heavy
H742 (hmm it may be an H744, I can't remember...) supply: there'll be a
little potentiometer on the unit that will allow you to adjust the voltage
levels. Set it to put out -15VDC with all connections in place. You'll then
see that with the unit running standalone, that it'll show a bit higher
than 15 V.
By the way, can you quantify "severely"?
Kevin
==========================================================
Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department
E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544
Email: mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
8:41 a.m.
Kevin McQuiggin wrote:
At 03:31 PM 31/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
I thought the 11/45s had a linear supply?
Sure, but the thing is, the PS seems to be fine
when there's no logic
plugged in. It puts out -15VDC right on the money. When I connect all
the mate-n'-locs to the logic cage, the voltage dies down severely.
Doesn't that indicate a 'logic' problem? Or at least a short somewhere on
the logic boards?
These are old switching supplies with outputs that vary by load.
8:49 a.m.
Kevin McQuiggin wrote:
>
> At 03:31 PM 31/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Sure, but the thing is, the PS seems to be fine when there's no logic
> >plugged in. It puts out -15VDC right on the money. When I connect all
> >the mate-n'-locs to the logic cage, the voltage dies down severely.
severely = -2VDC instead of -15VDC.
:(
8:57 a.m.
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8:36 a.m.
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1 Sep
1 Sep
4:53 p.m.
New subject: nasty chassis, surprise inside
I saw the rear end of a old Apple IIe peeking out of its burial in a big
box of misc junk, and for no good reason dug it out. What a junker, half a
dozen keys were missing, and the case looked like it had been on the bottom
of a lot of pallets. I could hear most of the cards were loose inside,
either pulled and left, or the unit was dropped upside down or something.
The power supply didn't look right, kind of squished with a fan on the top,
and no Apple logo. The words "hard drive" on it though prompted me to close
the case and go buy it. ;)
I took it home, blew out the dust, and reseated all the cards. Then plugged
it in. INSTANT booting, must be some kind of rom card, then the hard drive
spun up, and I have two apparently emulated hard floppies, slot 7 drives 1
and 2. Its a Applied inginuity drive and controller, Ramworks card, Hayes
modem, and a couple other cards. Nasty looking little bugger, (the case and
keyboard are junk and will be replaced), but fast, fast, fast.
29 May
29 May
3:31 p.m.
Use de squeal and boardwsapping (or even an empty backplane) as an
indicator of where the problem is. -12V is not used everywhere on the
system so you may be able to narrow it down a bit.
Sipke de Wal
Jacob Ritorto wrote:
Hello Classiccmp.
I recently acquired a nice, rust-free, mostly-original 11/45 from
an old lisp hacker in Los Altos Hills, CA. He told me that it had been
running the last time he'd powered it up, which was in 1984 IIRC, but
sadly, something has gone awry and it won't run now, though it seems to be
close. Here's a brief summary of its status:
It was originally a five-rack system with each rack containing the
controllers for the housed peripherals. The bus was chained through to
each rack on a BC05 and terminated with an M930. I only took the
processor and the TU-10 racks, so to make troubleshooting easier, I
reduced the system to only the CPU and memory boxes (memory is a 220KB
box from Monolithic Systems that has unibus in and out). The processor
has 12 KW of core as well, so I guess I could cut the bus down a bit more
for the purpose of debugging.
Mode of failure is such:
I powered up the shortened system and the front panel lights lit
[excitement]. Then I tried to examine some memory locations via the
panel, but when I hit HALT, the RUN light stayed lit. I tried every
combination of switches I thought was appropriate, but the RUN light
wouldn't go off. (Sounds like a simple bus error, really.) Upon
realizing that something was amiss, I decabled all the power connectors
from the logic and tested the voltages, which, surprisingly, were all
about 6%-9% above spec (and I'm not too sure that my VOM is accurate even
though it's analog). I didn't readjust the voltages, but reconnected the
power cables to the logic boards and retested the voltage levels. All
stayed about the same except for the -15VDC. It dropped to about 2V. Same
reading on both -15V regulators, by the way, and they seem to be connected
to different areas of the backplane, but I'm not sure. There seems to be
a high-pitch squeal (that sound of a laboring regulator) coming from
somewhere in the power supply cluster, but there's no smoke or crackling
sounds. I don't remember noticing the squeal with the power cables
disconnected, but that may be a subconscious hope and not a fact.
So that's my predicament. I don't have much time to mess with
this beautiful old girl, so I hope someone here can increase my repairing
efficiency.
Help me save this great piece of computing history. In return,
I'll at least give you an account on it if I get it to the point where
it'll run 2.9BSD or V7. I have SMD interfaces and disks, etc and
everything else I need (except a DELQA) to get it hooked up to the net.
Thank you in advance.
jake
30 May
30 May
4:48 a.m.
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-
allisonp＠world.std.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
jritorto＠nut.net -
marvin＠rain.org -
mcquiggi＠sfu.ca -
mikeford＠netwiz.net -
sipke＠wxs.nl