test-drb

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101090 discussions

IBM AT power supply case/cooling question

by fernande＠internet1.net

I'm using the case from an IBM AT to build a socket 7 Linux machine. The AT wasn't complete, and the case is a little rusty on it's hood, so it wasn't a good example to restore to original. My question is this..... can I safely leave the PS cover off? If I add a few of the factory screws the PS case/chassis is still quite solid, it just does have the cover on the top, or by the drives. Basically, it removes two out of six sides. I'd want to do this for a bit more cooling, since the fan would have less obstruction. Plus, I think it looks lind of cool too :-) Would I have problems with EMF emmisions effecting the computer's operations? The main case cover would be installed.... would I have other EMF troubles, if I leave the top of the PS off? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>Does the MAC support USB? You can thank the Mac for the USB saturation in the PC world. It wasn't moving until Apple added USB to the iMac. >How about USB-2? Not yet >5-port boards for the PC cost >about $20. Most of those boards, if you read the packaging, also support PCI based Macs, but since every current shipping Mac has USB built in, there is little need to buy the board except to add it to older systems. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>> >We'd best just agree to disagree about Apple Computer Co product quality. >> >> I'm sure not aiming to start another flame war :-) >> >Thank you both! ;) When you are a die hard Mac user in a Windows based industry, you learn to "agree to disagree" and just let things go. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>Standard? The 8*24*GC kicks keister -- it's accelerated and has great colour >output. My IIsi is visibly faster since I got one. I didn't mean standard as in piss poor... what I meant was, the 8*24 was a commonly found card in the day of the IIx. Yes, it is a very good card. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by DAW＠yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu

> From: Chris > > >Apple Computer Co. always impressed me as being > >entirely too willing to compromise the quality of MY hardware/software, > and > >the security of my data, in favor of their profits. > > WOAH?!? That's just a shot from the dark... Apple is known for how good > their quality IS... sure they had a few flops, but most of their hardware > is built well, and built to last. And security? Um... compared to what? > Windows? BWAA HAA HAA HAA HAA!!! > > -chris > Really Chris? Then why was I very busy making good money doing Apple/Mac support at Electric Boat up here? ;) -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash

23 years, 11 months

Apple networking (was: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: tim lindner [mailto:tlindner@ix.netcom.com] > PhontNet is also a cabling system. It's worth mentioning that the difference between phonenet and localtalk is all in the cable ends. There's really no difference at all. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and > Windows NT servers. I > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who > use MACs install > an ethernet interface. If you can't get an ethernet board for the machine, you can get a Kayman Gatorbox. It's an Appletalk <-> Ethernet router kind of setup. It will also do protocol translation to an extent, and most Mac IP stacks will use it. (I think. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by edick＠idcomm.com

See below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Finnegan" <pat(a)purdueriots.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:24 AM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The baseband frequency, BTW doesn't impact the CPU, at least not on the > > systems I'm familiar with, since the NIC recognizes traffic for the local > > address and only that has to be dealt with. That's done at the CPU's > > pleasure. > > Yeah, but 1) there's no way you'd come close to saturating a 1Gbit pipe > with your Performa and 2) it makes more sense to use a network switch that > can deal with different speeds than a single backbone of 'excessive' > speed. In fact, to use junky old Ethernet's CSMA/CD collision detection > on a 'bus' version that fast would require a VERY short bus length, > negating any advantages I could see for using such a fast networking > topology. > First of all, it's not necessary that the MAC be capable of the highest bandwidth. I was just curious what's out there. Secondly, for a 5-6 staton LAN, including servers, it makes little sense to have lots of switching/routing hardware and a complex topology. Right now, what's active is one of two servers and a single station (this one). I get inquiries about the 10Gb and faster hardware from time to time, and, having not even ventured, in any sense, into the 1 Gb stuff, I'm just looking around. > > Still, I guess it would be a very interesting sight. > > > So, if I want to put standard ethernet on this Performa, how does that work? > > 1) Insert NIC into LC PDS slot > 2) Turn on mac, connect ethernet cable, and configure the 'AppleTalk' > control panel to use Ethernet instead of the modem or printer port. > ... and what's an LC PDS slot? What's a suitable NIC that's common enough I might see one? > > > What do I have to beg, borrow, steal? If the NT server, as I'm told it can, > > talks AppleTalk, does it do that over ethernet? > > Yes. It's possible to get a Localtalk card (for connection over the slow > 230Kbit apple networking), but they're few and far between (besides, I'm > not sure what OS's they actually work with). However, AppleTalk will run > 'out of the box' over ethernet on NT. My high school used a couple NT > servers for all of their Mac systems, so it's definitely doable. > > OK, now I really need to try and get some work done. > > -- Pat > >

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@mac.com] > >I'm still trying to figure out what to do with a MAC once > it's running. > replace your normal everyday use computer... and finally be > able to relax? Well, that got a laugh from me. Some of us who don't use Macs every day can already relax. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > I'm still trying to figure out what to do with a MAC once > it's running. I > have a walkman, and several CD players, so I don't need it > for that ... Do you like programming in Pascal? :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 11 months

MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > What's Appletalk, ... I mean REALLY ... What's Appletalk? Funny networking protocol, I think over top of RS-422 or the like. Sometimes they tunnel it over ethernet too. The serial port that the Macs have built in is generally called the "localtalk" port, and also used for printers, which speak some subset of this strange protocol, AFAIR. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by DAW＠yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu

> From: Chris > > >I'm still trying to figure out what to do with a MAC once it's running. > > replace your normal everyday use computer... and finally be able to relax? > > -chris > *sigh* Chris, the evangelist... Someone gimme a rock, to knock him off his soapbox... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>I don't remember seeing any slots for "cards" of any sort when I had the box >open. It has a Comm Slot 1 and an LC PDS slot, both right on the slide out motherboard. The Comm Slot looks a bit like a PCI slot, and the LC slot looks more like that NuBus slot (long retange with rows of pin holes). There is also a video in/out slot, that will look like a tiny card edge connector slot. >I just discarded a MAC (Nubus) >ethernet card. I figured I'd come to regret it, though I'm not sure it would >have made any difference. Nope, couldn't have used that on the 630 anyway. >the video card, which, I think, is a pretty typical MAC >video board. >From a IIx, if it was color, probably the 8*24GC, fairly standard card for the day. >It's a serious security problem to use TCP/IP on a lan if one has an internet >connection. My LAN uses Netbeui and IPX/SPX. There's got to be a way ... If you are doing file/print sharing, I would use AppleTalk if possible. The key is can any of the servers you are running speak appletalk. (NT4, Win2k, Netware...). AppleTalk isn't the most secure protocol as far as packet sniffing is concerned... but very few internet routers will route it, so it is a fairly safe bet that the traffic will not go beyond your lan (as your internet router box will most likely ignore the packets and not pass them along). Appletalk has the added advantage of just working. It finds its own node address, and sniffs out the network by itself. Pretty much turn it on, and it works. It doesn't get much easier than AppleTalk. Downside is, it tends to be a bit chatty, and it isn't real fast (usually about 4Mb/s on a 10Mb network is the best you will get. AppleTalk of TCP/IP is much faster, but then you run the same risks you do for any TCP/IP traffic) >Is there a "slick" way to exploit hardware that's already in the Performa >630CD? Eh... not really. There are software things you can run to route Localtalk (built in to all macs since the 512kE IIRC, definitly since the Plus) to Ethernet... but somewhere you will still need the hardware connection to go to Ethernet. But you should be able to lay your hands on an LC Ethernet card for the 630 with ease, and fairly cheap. Worst case, if you don't find one local, let me know, I can probably turn up a spare and let you have it for a song (read: probably free + shipping depending on how fast you need it, my time schedule, and how many I have kicking around) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 11 months

"Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu

> > > > (For those not in the know, the Commodore Indus GT drive has a > > > > drive 1 [LOAD"$1",8] with DOS Wedge, a fast loader and some other > > > > utilities permanently in drive ROM that can > > > > just be loaded out of the drive instantaneously.) > > That's interesting. I did not know that. Are there any details > published anywhere about how they did it? How large is the "ROM > Disk"? Does it work by having an emulated filesystem, or does > it "cheat"? I wonder how hard it would be to slap some ROM on the > side of a 1541 and add "unit 1 support" (and I wonder if that would > fix or aggravate the save-and-replace bug). I strongly think it cheats. It does have what looks like a real filesystem, but I doubt the illusion goes further than skin-deep :-) It is one of the GT's most interesting features, but since it works just fine with Epyx FastLoad, I don't use it often. More to the point, the GT's in-ROM fast loader doesn't work with any other drive but a GT, and most utility cartridges have some kind of DOS wedge, so the files aren't called for much now. Still a neat idea. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI! ----------------------------------

23 years, 11 months

"Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> Raymond > > Your Mother Runs TSO ! Your Daddy runs BTAM! ;)

23 years, 11 months

"Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> > I didn't mean to say it wasn't. Just that you made it sound like > > one could completely replace a 390 with a peesee. > > A 360 you could. a 370 soon, and thats doing emulation > on the bare metal a PC is faster than the total run of > 360's ever built combined many times over, and that > includes the I/O. What, even a 360/91 (I guess there weren't too many, in fact, did anyone besides Columbia get one)? -dq

23 years, 11 months

PDP11 M8190 console + DIP switches / FPA

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

Hi. I am looking for the console bulkhead pinout and the DIP switch description of the M8190 / KDJ11-B PDP11 QBus CPU module. I had a look at the micronotes and googled around, but found nothing. Also: The board seams to be revision C1 (stamped on the handle). Does this mean I can not add a FPA? I am a bit confused because there is only "KDJ11-B" written on the board and micronote 39 lists the "KDJ11-BC" as FPA incompatible. field-guide.txt contains no "KDJ11-BC" and lists only the "KDJ11-B 11/84 CPU" UniBus CPU as FPA incompatible. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

23 years, 11 months

PDP11 M8190 console + DIP switches / FPA

by Antonio.Carlini＠riverstonenet.com

>I am looking for the console bulkhead pinout and the DIP switch > description of the M8190 / KDJ11-B PDP11 QBus CPU module. I had a look > at the micronotes and googled around, but found nothing. You can find a manual over at http://scandocs.trailing-edge.com/micropdp11/volume1_system_cpus/EK-247AA-M… and you can find the related KDJ11-A info at: http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp11/ (I believe that the KDJ11-A and KDJ11-B are similar but not identical). Antonio

23 years, 11 months

"Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > Well the newer ones are getting better, the new fridge sized > boxes require a fraction of the cooling the old ones did I know, but power is somewhat expensive for me anyway ;) > getting small, a IBM 3864 modem was a hefty 30 pounds or so. Seen the "I put the nut on a rock, and I hit it with the modem" text file? > So what i said was correct, the herc emu is emulating the majority I didn't mean to say it wasn't. Just that you made it sound like one could completely replace a 390 with a peesee. If that's the case, you (rather, the people who own the 390 in question) should have never used a 390 in the first place. > of all that stuff, dasd,, tapes,, card deck with an emulated > "reader" the 3174's and the terminals, that campus full of stuff > running virtualized on your PC. One day I'll actually get around to trying it. > at the time when the press would talk about NT everywhere when > it was knowwhere, i guess doing their part to create the illusion > of "everyone else, why not you?" You mean NT finally got somewhere? :) > > I don't know exact numbers, but honestly, the CPU in a modern peesee > > isn't the weak spot at all. Generally there's some kind of > bottleneck > > (or five) that needs repaired in the design. > Well a decent modern board is no slouch there either really The boards aren't, but the disk I/O on most "consumer" systems is pretty bad, for instance. It should be possible to get better I/O out of them, especially if there are (as I hear) AMD boards with 64-bit PCI. > You cant really trash PC I/O anymore, its right up there > with everything else and surpasses all the old workstations, Might be a dangerous statement. There have been some pretty impressive workstations. Add that to the fact that some people consider a one-year-old machine "old." I won't argue that peesee hardware hasn't advanced. it's literally mind-blowing what they've done with it, given the origins of the thing. I just wish they'd started with a nicer architecture to begin with. > current PC I/O dont compete with a current mainframe, > but what ever did ? Well, other current mainframes, of course, possibly -- as you mentioned -- supercomputers, too. > There has been really large R&D sums spent on pushing PC > performance. and its starting to show bigtime. I'm sure. Just imagine what they could have done by pouring all of that cash into Alpha. > In a way, comparing a mainframe to a PC is like a coal train to a > dodge viper, sure the viper is faster, but lets see how well it > does hooked to 80 hopper cars full of coal eh ? I'll go along with that. > > a supercomputer at all. When is "yesterday" in this context? :) > Well litteraly yesterday, dreamworks, pixar etc is going all linux > for their stuff and the supercomputers people talk about these > days on the www.top500.org list are linux clusters. All? I haven't checked top500 recently, but there were certainly a few non-clusters in the top 20 last time I looked. My trouble with clusters is that they're not "tightly coupled" enough to make them very interesting to me, generally. Sure, they'll solve problems, but again, I/O is the bottleneck. > Another example, look at www.ltsp.org, they are netbooting old > retired PC's used a diskless xterminals and hanging up to 200 > of them off a modern machine that the apps run on. I've considered doing something like that just for fun, and it's interesting, but as far as being a "cluster," I'm not sure it would qualify in my book. :) Or did you mean it as an example of something else? > It saves them bucks, and a machine not bloated down > to a 486 with winblows can hump a good load these days. Windows is up to 486 performance now? You wouldn't know it to use windows 2k on the pentium 5xx at work. > > Your comment about mainframes having "stayed small" is > oddly amusing, > Stay small they did, sure the linux kernel tree has grown with the They've certainly "gotten small," in hardware. I can't argue that the software isn't efficient, either. > in-tree driver count and branches for all the different hardware, > the same tree builds for a sun alpha or s390. It's not so much the size of the tree that bothers me in general with Linux, but the size of the finished kernel. I do still use it occasionally on <on topic> hardware, and it really annoyed me when I had to start using the bzImage target for make ;) I don't think it's in the drivers, either, but in the kernel somewhere, that it's gotten larger. There could be a good reason for it, but I'd like to see some of the stuff optionally removed so that my kernels can go back to being a few hundred kbytes uncompressed. Admittedly, loadable modules help. > but the resultant built kernel has not grown much over the years, > same for the mainframe, sure it has lots of services hanging around > it but its core also has stayed very trim. In relation to the memory capacity of the hardware on which it runs, you're absolutely right. I'd still like to see it trimmed some. > One important object of kernel development is for the code to > get smaller and faster consistent with the other goals. > Linux, the BSD's and IBM's top line operating systems have > done well here. I can't name any non-microsoft product that hasn't done ok. > My firewall DNS mail www and other sundres is still running on an > old 486 EISA machine, and its just as happy running the same > kernel and userspace as the 1000mhz linux box with the > nvidia 3D card, runs fast on slow machines, runs all the faster > on fast machines. I hope you re-compiled specifically for the CPUs. There are some optimizations that the compiler could make differently for 486 vs. Pentium (I assume it's 100Mhz Pentium) that could make a difference in performance. > The agenda for mickysoft dumbf**kware n co, however, seems > to be ""cover up any hardware performance gains ( and existing > hardware) with bloat, forcing the market to buy new boxes > and end up with no gain at all."" Agenda? I don't know about that. I honestly don't care what microshaft is thinking. The result, though, is as you say. > My main beaf with x86 is register starvation, at least AMD is doing > something about it. Ok, this is floating off-topic again, but do you mean in their 64-bit core, or in some 32 bit chip? > c++ for example, eats a register for "this" and on a register > starved cpu it hurts far more than others that have more > registers, this type of thing is perhaps why some fare well > by compare despite slower clock speeds. There's always "virtual registers." > Its hard to ignore raw speed however, what the x86 lacks > archtectually its seems to be making it up with brute force. That's true. I won't argue that it's not effective, but it's the wrong way to do it ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>What's the "right" way to add networking to the MAC? Just add the card >I'm not inclined to buy >into standard Ethernet, since I've got 100Mbps and am looking to move to the >bleeding edge for educational purposes. Is there any >10Gbps stuff one can >add? How about just the 100 Mbps? There are 10, 100, and 1000 cards available, but the 1000s are only for the newer PCI based Macs. That isn't to say you can't lay your hands on the Mac cheap (a 7200 can be had for nearly free)... but the giga card is likely to cost you far more than the Mac did. You can get 100 cards for NuBus... Farallon made one... but they are a little tough to come by. If you are looking to get a Mac and not use the 630, then get a PCI based Mac... 10/100 cards can be bought for those easy (and some of your off the shelf brands support the Mac... like SMC sells one of their cards and offers Mac drivers on their web site). I don't know of anything faster than a 10Mb for the LC slot in your 630... at that point, you are better off getting a cheap 10/100 switch and just use the 10Mb card. >I'm also looking for a recommendation for a decent but not too rare or >expensive 56K dialup modem that's also fax-capable. Just about any external modem will work with a Mac. Take your pick... all the major brands work fine. >I've noticed that there's software out there for doing >long-distance jibberjabber between computers on the internet. If I equip one >of these babies with that and send it to my S.O's sister in Portland, they >can >yack without running up the long distance bills. That's easily going to pay >for an older MAC in a week or so. Find a cheap Power PC mac (these can be had almost for free these days for low end ones). Make sure it is a PCI one (check apple.com's hardware specs to see which ones) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 11 months

MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

Dick said: > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs install > an ethernet interface. Nuvolink made a box, SCSI interfaced Ethernet, 10-base-2 and AUI. The Quadra 700 was a slight modification to the Mac IIci. The IIci didn't have Ethernet; the Q700 did. The IIci was a 1990 machine. Q700 was probably late '91 or early '92. Not sure therefore what you mean by "old". May have been e-net boards that clamped down on the 68k chip like the hard drive upgrades and the 1st Radius FP display, but once SCSI was in place, you had that. But shortly thereafter you have e-nat on (almost) every Mac. -dq

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by nemesis-lists＠icequake.net

Dick, > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs install > an ethernet interface. > > What do you know about that? For Localtalk Macs, you have a few choices. 1) Some models, like the SE/30, had internal slots in which an Ethernet interface could be installed. These are, however, rare and somewhat pricey. 2) There are ethernet adapters available that hang off the SCSI port. These are quite proprietary, and can be hard to find software for. 3) You can use a Mac running Localtalk Gateway software for a router. However, that Mac must have a localtalk and ethernet interface. 4) You can buy standalone boxes like the Shiva Fastpath that handle routing Localtalk to Ethertalk. These generally work rather well, and can be found cheaply on Ebay. I use a Fastpath 5 for my Mac network, and it's not failed me. Locating and configuring the software is the biggest hurdle; I've compiled an archive of information at http://dbz.icequake.net/oldskool/fastpath/ . -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

23 years, 11 months

MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by mythtech＠mac.com

>What's Appletalk, ... I mean REALLY ... What's Appletalk? Apple's own networking protocol. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 11 months

APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>Nickel Metal Hydride. yeah that... (I know Hydroxide didn't sound right... I was just drawing a blank on the right term) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 11 months

Apple networking (was: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by tlindner＠ix.netcom.com

> Now we've got Localtalk and Appletalk ... What are they and which is which? AppleTalk is a networking protocol. TCP/IP is also a networking protocol. LocalTalk is a cabling system. Just like Ethernet (10baseT, etc) is a cabling system. AppleTalk runs on top of LocalTalk. Other terms that might crop up: PhontNet is also a cabling system. EtherTalk is AppleTalk running on top of Ethernet. -- tim lindner tlindner(a)ix.netcom.com "Life. Don't talk to me about life." - Marvin, the android

23 years, 11 months

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