- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> 1. Observe symptoms > 2. Make predictions > 3. validate predictions > 4. If predictions do not pan out add this > to the observed symptoms and go back to step 2 or 1. > 5. Repair bad part. > > I find that most don't understand the importance of steps > 2 and 3. They try to go from 1 to 5 and usually it doesn't > work. Step 2 does require that you understand what to > expect from each kind of failure. If you read usenet and/or the questions being asked on CLASSICCMP, you'll find that most folks can't even execute step 1 correctly. If I had a dime for every time someone complained about some problem they were having and didn't even bother to quote the command line they were trying or the exact error message that resulted, I'd be a millionaire. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by elvey＠hal.com

Hi All I decided, on good advice, to look at the static RAMs. I found a couple of flaky boards. In both cases, it looks like it was socket problems. I like sockets for repair but in older machines, they are a major problem source. I brought out my magic grease and coated the IC pins that were offenders and now the machine seems quite reliable. I found a couple more errors in my CBIOS but nothing I can't work around until I get the source typed in and use the ASM on the disk to generate code. One bug stops the warm start from working correctly. It is no biggy, it is related to how the controller deals with track zero. When the head is unloaded, it doesn't pass the track zero status. This means that if I'm at track zero and then request to go to track zero, a quick check of the controller status says I'm not there and I step to track -1. Of course, there is no data there so the thing fails to reload. I think the easy way to deal with this is to issue a NOOP to the controller to cause a head load and then read the status. Another error that doesn't seem to cause trouble is that the CONST routine is passing a 0F0H as a true flag instead of a 0FFH. This is because I incorrectly wrote my return flag routine. I don't like using conditional code to generate flags. This is mostly the results of doing code for a lot of real time applications that require deterministic operation. The problem was I did it incorrectly. The code I wrote was: ANI 40H ADI F0H SBI F0H What I should have written was: ANI 40H ADI 0FFH SBB A I still have one last problem that I don't understand. When I send the back-space character to CPM I get erratic results. Some times it sends back two back-space characters and other times it sends one back-space and one space character. I don't know if this is caused by a RAM problem or not. It is a funny thing because every thing else seems work fine so I don't think it is a problem with something like the RAM. At first I used the ^R a lot to see the line. In any case, I'm using my lap top as a terminal and can filter it until I find time to look into it. Characters in the DUMP program always come out right. I'll have to look into the DRAM issue another day. Dwight

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>A Z80 will give useful patterns executing continual 00 (NOP, so the <>address bus cycles through all of memory) or FF (RST 38, so the stack <>builds down to fill all off memory). Both should provide useful patterns <>on DRAM control lines. <> <Of course, the old IMSAI didn't have a Z80, though I imagine the behavior o <the 8080 is similarly predicable to some extent. However, this puts us in <the realm of "coulda-woulda-shoulda" which is not where I like to work. A <prom is easy, quick and earseable. If you don't have a few for diagnostic <purposes, you get what you deserve. same as z80 case, plus the front pannel can be very useful. However, your point make two assumptions, a prom card or a card that assumably works and takes a prom and the tools to program that specific prom. When I was doing most of this stuff alot (early 1973-1983) those things were often in short supply or non existant and a LA was stratosphere priced. <I guess I'm stupider than average, but I have never found what I get from <logic probe to be particularly useful, nor have I gotten reliable/repeatabl Different style and presentation. With a LP you attack section by section and you have to visualize the big picture. <results. The 'scope doesn't lie, however, and once you own one, it's a <mistake even to pick up the logic probe, since it can tell you so little. Wrong. I have all three and they have their place. Often the LP is more than enough. It was enough to shoot the PDP-8f front pannel with a bad input 7451 (lots of inputs!) and without a print! <The logic analyzer is quite a complex beast and requires experience and <patience to set it up and to utilize the information you get from it <correctly. The reason I'm using mine is because I'm building a bus probe <for the S-100 to be run from a PC. This will simulate a front panel on th <screen and (hopefully) trivialize the task of making individual boards in <the S-100 cardcage "so something" to aid in trouble-shooting. I'm not far <along yet, but I thing taking a few pictures of the significant waveforms <while fiddling with different CPU cards will get me back into the swing of <things. I found an easier way. Netronics 8085 system. 8085 with prom, ram, IO local to itself and a s100 extension off that. Bought it in '78 before the lightining hit fried the altair and it was vey useful as even dead cards could be driven. Some of the S100 SBC style CPUs (Computime SB880 come to mind as I have one) is also useful as it has z80, serial, 1kram, eprom all on the card and great for driving the deadest of s100 busses. <Some magazine published a multiplexer for the oscilloscope which enabled a <externally triggered 'scope to display 8 multiplexed channels in either <alternating or chopped mode. That was about 20 years ago, but little <gadgets like that cost only a few bucks to build and will save lots of tim <on things with several interacting signals. This one used 4000-series CMO <stuff to form a bias voltage be summed with the logic signal in order to Built one. Too slow to be useful for logic of even 8080 speeds. the 4066s were barely good to 10mhz as the board was laid out. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Re[4]: More Bringing up a CPM >> ><Even if you don't intend to use PROMs in your final device, I'd certainly >> ><recommend you build a few PROMS which make the processor do rudimentary >> ><things and perhaps which make the DMAC do the same things. You then have >> ><simple tools with which to troubleshoot your memory interfaces. >> > >> >that can be helpful. I just use the CPU executing junk FF/00 or whatever >> >else the bus lets it see, >> >> >> This might work but is rarely predictable. > >IMHO it's good design practice to put pull up/down resistors on a bus >that might be floating (like most data buses). In which case the >'floating' bus is predictable. > Just because it's good practice doesn't mean that it's happened. > >A Z80 will give useful patterns executing continual 00 (NOP, so the >address bus cycles through all of memory) or FF (RST 38, so the stack >builds down to fill all off memory). Both should provide useful patterns >on DRAM control lines. > Of course, the old IMSAI didn't have a Z80, though I imagine the behavior of the 8080 is similarly predicable to some extent. However, this puts us in the realm of "coulda-woulda-shoulda" which is not where I like to work. A prom is easy, quick and earseable. If you don't have a few for diagnostic purposes, you get what you deserve. > >> >> ><After reading about the problems you're having, I think I'll fetch the 1240 >> ><LA out onto the patio as well. >> > >> >I troubleshoot 90% of my s100 problems with a good logic probe and >> >a DVM. The rare case I've dragged out the scope it was handy but usually >> >because I missed something stupid. The recent NS* bring up required the >> >logic probe, its where I spotted a missing Mwrite/ (jumper smeared off the >> >cpu board). >> I guess I'm stupider than average, but I have never found what I get from a logic probe to be particularly useful, nor have I gotten reliable/repeatable results. The 'scope doesn't lie, however, and once you own one, it's a mistake even to pick up the logic probe, since it can tell you so little. The logic analyzer is quite a complex beast and requires experience and patience to set it up and to utilize the information you get from it correctly. The reason I'm using mine is because I'm building a bus probe for the S-100 to be run from a PC. This will simulate a front panel on the screen and (hopefully) trivialize the task of making individual boards in the S-100 cardcage "so something" to aid in trouble-shooting. I'm not far along yet, but I thing taking a few pictures of the significant waveforms while fiddling with different CPU cards will get me back into the swing of things. >> >> The logic analyzer is handy for gathering information about what a given > >Like Allison I used to work almost entirely with a logic probe and a VOM >(and a brain, which is the most important 'instrument' of all :-)). I had >a good logic analyser, which saved me a lot of time on occasions, but it >wasn't that convenient to use. > >Then I got a small (small enough to sit on top of any part of a machine), >simple (but expensive!) logic analyser. It has almost totally replaced my >logic probe. The ability to compare the timing of a couple of signals >(this thing has 3 channels, which is enough for most work) is _very >useful_. For a DRAM problem, I'd certainly look at RAS and CAS, and maybe >'board select' or 'refresh' or 'address mux control'. Some magazine published a multiplexer for the oscilloscope which enabled an externally triggered 'scope to display 8 multiplexed channels in either alternating or chopped mode. That was about 20 years ago, but little gadgets like that cost only a few bucks to build and will save lots of time on things with several interacting signals. This one used 4000-series CMOS stuff to form a bias voltage be summed with the logic signal in order to present the signal with a sufficient offset to make each successive trace appear with enough separation to be useful on the small CRT found on most 'SCOPEs. I have trouble with the notion of using that mode for displaying what's happening, since you can fool yourself with the display of apparently concurrent events when they are really not at all concurrent. About 15 years ago, I made up a sampling circuit which drives a 'scope with eight channels on each probe and triggers the 'scope on a third. I was never totally happy with the triggering capability, but if I kept the trigger simple, it would do what I wanted quite respectably. I used a DAC to generate the voltage offset, hence I could go quite a bit faster than the CMOS circuit I described above, though it was never necessary. Such a tool is suitable for a job like this, and would make the LA unnecessary, except that I do have the LA, and it will transfer the samples I catch to my PC, allowing me to use the pictures I take for documentation prepared on the PC. I became convinced of the need for a small and handy tool like the sampler I mentioned before. This palm-sized device only served me once, because one of my colleagues insisted I sell it to him. He had already borrowed it for use elsewhere and had no plan to return it. I think I've come up with a reasonable triggering circuit, so I may build another version. My TEK logic analyzer is about the size and weight of a TEK portable oscilloscope, and, hence is more portable than today's typical LA. I don't use it unless I need it, but once it's on the work surface, it sees a bit of use. I still miss the gadget with the wires hanging out the ends, though, as it was the size of one of the pods on this LA. >I rarely use a 'scope for computer (digital) repairs. It's essential for >analogue work, fixing SMPSUs, etc. But I don't find it _that_ useful on >typical non-repetitive digital signals. What you describe is really just a 4-channel 'scope. What I would recommend for anyone who attacks a system problem like this one is to use a small LA like mine so he/she can capture the signals on the CPU card, the signals on the bus, and the signals on the DRAM board. The addresses and data aren't really essential, though it's useful to have one of each so one can see when they become stabile, and little short of a logic analyzer will support so many signals. >> >With rare exception and all if a board doesn't work scoping it may or may >> >not help. just follow the logic with a logic probe as likely it's a chip >> >or socket failure. The reason is the board worked, was sold working and >> >if it were good it should still work. The exception is when you have bus > >Don't bet on it. I've lost count of the number of misdesigned (often >subtly - like marginal timing or ground bounce problems) DRAM cards that >I've had to sort out. > >Also, a logic probe won't detect _some_ chip failures. You've got a 2 >input NAND gate. The logic probe shows nice pulse trains on all 3 >connections. You think it's OK and move on. What it hasn't told you is >that one input does nothing, and the gate is a simple inverter on the >other input. Yes, I've seen exactly that fault. > That's certainly a valid observation. In this case, however, it is likely that the cards will require some sort of redesign in order to make them not only work together but work more or less in a standard way. That requires lots of careful observation, more easily done with a logic analyzer than with a 'scope or anything less. > >> >> I've found the 'scope and LA more trouble to use than a meter and a logic >> probe, but I've also learned that I get more useful information about DRAM >> boards by looking at their DRAM control strobes and timing relative to the >> memory access strobes and data than I could get with a meter and logic probe >> under any circumstances. So many DRAM cards are at least partly timed with >> one-shots, a tool which merely tells you sommething's happening but doesn't >> tell you what, is not of much use in THIS case. > >Agreeded. > > >I've 'advertised' it before, but HP's LogicDart (the small logic analyser >I mentioned a few screens back) is a very useful tool. It's probably >overkill for most people here, but if you do a lot of component level >repairs, or if you do design, it's certainly worth considering. It is as >easy to use as a logic probe for simple measurements (tap one probe on a >point and it'll tell you high/low/clocking, the mean DC voltage, and the >frequency. Press a button and it'll capture the logic waveform at that >point), but can do a lot more. > >-tony >

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded remarks below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 9:00 PM Subject: Re: Re[4]: More Bringing up a CPM ><Even if you don't intend to use PROMs in your final device, I'd certainly ><recommend you build a few PROMS which make the processor do rudimentary ><things and perhaps which make the DMAC do the same things. You then have ><simple tools with which to troubleshoot your memory interfaces. > >that can be helpful. I just use the CPU executing junk FF/00 or whatever >else the bus lets it see, This might work but is rarely predictable. ><After reading about the problems you're having, I think I'll fetch the 124 ><LA out onto the patio as well. > >I troubleshoot 90% of my s100 problems with a good logic probe and >a DVM. The rare case I've dragged out the scope it was handy but usually >because I missed something stupid. The recent NS* bring up required the >logic probe, its where I spotted a missing Mwrite/ (jumper smeared off the >cpu board). The logic analyzer is handy for gathering information about what a given board does in a specific environment. I though I'd like to have pictures of the cycle at the bus to correlate with the same cycle at the DRAMs, since I have over a dozen DRAM boards to check out. This will give me information about the various DRAM boards as well as the cycle timing generated by the various CPU's. >With rare exception and all if a board doesn't work scoping it may or may >not help. just follow the logic with a logic probe as likely it's a chip >or socket failure. The reason is the board worked, was sold working and >if it were good it should still work. The exception is when you have bus >incompatability problems and a scope will not help unless your going to >alter the board to make it work assuming it was not also broken. > I've found the 'scope and LA more trouble to use than a meter and a logic probe, but I've also learned that I get more useful information about DRAM boards by looking at their DRAM control strobes and timing relative to the memory access strobes and data than I could get with a meter and logic probe under any circumstances. So many DRAM cards are at least partly timed with one-shots, a tool which merely tells you sommething's happening but doesn't tell you what, is not of much use in THIS case. > >Allison >

26 years, 6 months

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Northstar Horizon

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> > If you want to make one, all it consists of are those 2-colour LEDs (red > and green diode in antiparallel) with 2 wires in series with a 3k > resistor (3k3 would also work) between the above mentioned signals and > Signal Ground. But they're pretty cheap to buy ready-made. > > -tony Radio shack has them for about $10. An invaluable tool! Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:24 PM Subject: Re: More Bringing up a CPM >ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >--snip-- >> Then I got a small (small enough to sit on top of any part of a machine), >> simple (but expensive!) logic analyzer. > > I still don't like LA's because they can often hide real >signals. You see this nice squared wave that has been sampled >by the LA's input. The real live circuit may see something >else entirely. The logic analyzer won't hide significant information about the logic and timing. If you sample at twice the frequency of the fastest harmonic you want to observe, you won't miss a thing. My ten-year-old TEK1240 only samples at 100 MHz on 9 of its 72 inputs. The remainder can sample at maximally 50 MHz. It is also capable of catching glitches. This is not much by today's standards, but that sample rate will certainly answer questions about the S-100 bus without fear of ambiguity. >> What it hasn't told you is that one input does nothing, >> and the gate is a simple inverter on the other input. >> Yes, I've seen exactly that fault. > >This is why I use my oscilloscope instead of a logic probe. >I can use more than one channel ( I don't consider single >channel 'scope to be useful for much more than patterns >in Sci-Fi movies ). Two channels is a minimum. While it >is true that non-repetitive patterns are hard to deal with, >in a computer I can often find a way to make the signal of >interest repetitive. In the rare case that I can't ( only >twice in 20 years of working with these things ), I rent >a logic analyzer. >IMHO >Dwight >

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

26 years, 6 months

5
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Source for DSDD 3.5" floppies?

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

On Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:05 PM, CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com [SMTP:CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com] wrote: > >> Athana is my preferred floppy media wholesaler. Go to http://www.athana.com/. > > >But they stopped listing prices on their web page. Its rather annoying > >to shop for floppy disks, when you have to call and ask for a quote > >for each type you're interested in. > A few years ago, I threw out about 25K new 5-1/4 DSDD disks. I still have a couple of cases left and they're up for grabs. There are 500 disks in a case although, I usually yank out a couple of packets to make room for ther sleeves. I'll send them to anyone on the list for the cost of shipping * 1.2 (from south Florida). I'd rather ship full cases but, will break them if no-one wants that many. IIRC, a full case weighs about 15 or 16 pounds so take that into consideration. I also have a couple of cases of used ones that I'll let go for shipping * 1. First come, first served. Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 6 months

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Source for DSDD 3.5" floppies?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Athana is my preferred floppy media wholesaler. Go to http://www.athana.com/. >But they stopped listing prices on their web page. Its rather annoying >to shop for floppy disks, when you have to call and ask for a quote >for each type you're interested in. Well, they *are* a manufacturer/wholesaler, and David's question did say that he was interested in buying in bulk. I personally don't have any problem with making a phone call to get a quote if I'm buying $1000 or $2000 worth of media. On a side-note, Athana also has a very good selection of bulk demagnetizers. See http://www.athana.com/ddequip/medequip.html In particular, they've got a very nice table of media coercivities and a "Degaussing FAQ" there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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Source for DSDD 3.5" floppies?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Hey guys, we have a piece of equipment at work which requires >DSDD 3.5" floppies. It won't work with the HD ones. And it's NEW >equipment at that. Anyway, does anyone have a source for these >where I could buy a large lot? Athana is my preferred floppy media wholesaler. Go to http://www.athana.com/. > I seem to recall a site on the net >which sold them as well as 8" floppies but don't recall. Athana also sells 8" floppies in bulk, as well as many 14" packs and cartridges... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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Toshiba Laptop Memory

by djenner＠halcyon.com

This isn't quite classic--but almost. I'm looking for a memory card for a Toshiba T3300SL laptop. (A 386/25 circa 1992.) Possible parts include Toshiba: PC-PA2009U (16MB) PC-PA2008U (6MB) or Kingston: KTT3300SL/16 (16MB) KTT3300SL/8 (8MB) KTT3300SL/6 (6MB) with the larger sizes preferred, of course. Other vendors may have compatible parts, too. I have 2MB and 4MBcards that I'd be happy to trade/sell/giveaway if I am able to find a larger card. If you have one of these or know a good source, please let me know. (I've searched for sites for the larger sizes on the Internet to no avail.) Thanks, Dave

26 years, 6 months

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Status update, plus need HP 790x disc drives

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

I'm also posting this response to classiccmp in case others are interested in some of the details.... You wrote... >Eek! COOL!! What media did you locate the software on? Is it running >(or soon to be) on your 1000F's? The media is still in transit, I haven't got it yet. He said it was on 7900A disk cartridge, but he might also send it on 1/2 tape. It will start out life running on two 2100A's. Then it will migrate to either my 2109B/2113B or if that fails the 2117F's. Eventually it will also run on a Unix or DOS/WIN PC via an emulator. >Aargh! What is the capacity of a 7900A? Does the "Access" version >require (shudder) a drum? The 7900A is 5mb (2.5 fixed, 2.5 removable). The 7906 is 20mb (10 fixed, 10 removable). Only the very earliest versions of TSB used a Drum; since the Access version is the last version of TSB ever made, it will run fine without a drum (probably can't use a drum either). Even if I ever got a drum unit, I think that would be beyond my capabilities to repair. >So, for reference; what are the capacities (and form factors) of the >listed drives? For that matter, what are the interface types? Are there >third party equivs? The 7900 uses a 12940 cartridge. This is a single platter, 24 hard sector cartridge. It has a raised area on the top that opens to accept the heads when inserted into the drive. From what I understand about RK05's, the disk cartridge is mechanically/cosmetically similar. The 7906 uses a similar cartridge (12989), but there is only one sector notch on the hub instead of 24. The 7920 (which I'm not really familiar with) I think used a 10 platter top loading cartridge. PS - I might have 12940 and 12989 interchanged above - poor memory :) Also, I don't recall the mils measurements, but the internal media platter is a different thickness between the 12940 and 12989. The 7900 drive hooked up to a 13210 controller in the cpu backplane. You could daisychain 3 more drives off the main 13210 controller. The 7906 used a different arrangement. In the cpu backplane was a 13037 card, which went to a rackmount box called a 13037 disc control unit (about 5 inches tall). Cables from the 13037 went to each 7905/7906/7920 drive. ISTR that the 13037 disc control unit (rev C at least) could support up to eight drives, and could support two separate computers. It also supposedly supported HP-IB drives too (but I don't think TSB would use the HP-IB drives, even through the 13037). >No, can't have that! Redundancy and all!! 'Off-site archive?' B^} I haven't settled on which systems I'll run it on yet (2100, 21MXE or 21MXF), Because I haven't, I will likely have some equipment left over from my scavenging. If so, it will be offered on classiccmp. >Aargh II! I'll try shaking some bushes around here and see if anything >falls out. Mucho Appreciation! Jay West

26 years, 6 months

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Info needed: HP1000F/2117F

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

You wrote... >I thought the A series followed, ending in the A990 ... which is called >a "1000" in HP's docs. (The A series are single board computers, >with the A990 listed as "3 MIPS") Thanks for the tip Stan! I know absolutely nothing about the A series. I didn't know if they were also part of the 1000 line. I appreciate your correction. One remarkable characteristic about the 2100/21MX line is that each sucessive machine released supported full backwards instruction set compatibility. For instance, the 21MX M, E, and F series all are fully backwards compatible with the 2100 instruction set (except for timing dependent loops). Do you know if the A series also supports the 2100 instruction set? >I'm still in the process of sorting through dozens of boxes of HP manuals, >but I've noticed at least two boxes of HP 1000 manuals of various kinds >(including some maint/diag manuals). I'll post more later, when I've >figured out more. Of course, I'd love to hear what 1000 manuals you might have! Jay West

26 years, 6 months

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How to get digest mode?

by todd.osborne＠barnstormer-software.com

Sorry for the global message, but how can I get digest mode emails from this group? Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne(a)fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne(a)barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.vwcl.org/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: 2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left! --------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 6 months

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Wanted: DEC EDUSystem Handbook

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

The subject says it all... Anyone have a copy that they could be parted from? -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live!

26 years, 6 months

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confidential info on old harddrives.

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

>> As far as publication is concerned, if you publish sensitive information about a >> person, there may be an action for defamation or some similar offence even if it >> is true. > > Unless that person is in the 'public's eye', like the president? Please correct me > if i'm wrong. I have no idea what the legal situation is for a public figure, but I had always assumed that in such cases things are published simply because the (financial) benefits of doing so outweigh the (also financial) punishments imposed by the law. I didn't think that the law actually made an exception. >> > I wasn't talking about morals. I'd probably find the previous owner and give >> it to >> > them, if they wanted it. otherwise I'd trash it. I have no use for old >> letters and >> > bank statements.... >> >> So you weren't talking about morals. Maybe you should have been thinking about >> them, though. If someone makes a mistake and you discover it, what should you >> (morally) do? Exploit it for financial gain? Or help them put it right? >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > If you read past my first sentence you would have seen my answer. I read several of your sentences. You said something about what you would probably do and something about what you considered you had a right to do, but little about what you _ought_ to do. That said, this is a mailing list, not a private letter. Such questions are often inserted for rhetorical reasons, not merely to extract a particular correspondent's answers. Should I have written "IAMTA" against it or something? IAMTA. >> There have indeed. Generally after copyright has expired, which in most >> countries now happens 50 or 70 years after the death of the writer. In the case >> of war diaries and the like, these are usually published with the permission, if >> not the active co-operation, of the author. This is a useful guide for when >> personal data ceases to be sensitive - 50 to 70 years after the death of the >> person concerned. > > How long is the copyright for software? If the law doesn't specifically fix a different period, and I would be surprised if it did, it will be just as long as for anything else. A legal grey area looms here. What is software? The text of a personal letter as typed in a word processor isn't; the source of a program is; but things in between like spreadsheets, databases, even text formatter source code could have problems in defining software. (In this context. In the context of the Hardware vs Software debate, for example, all the above are soft) > Regardless, I still _believe_ that it is the seller who is responsible for the data, > if not morally or legally, than just for personal safety and/or fear of > embarrassment, or just paranoia. This of course is my opinion. I've never sold a > computer without first wiping everything off of it, and i don't have any info i > would consider sensitive or very private stored on there. I agree that the seller has a duty to keep sensitive data safe, and off the machine if he can. But I claim that the buyer also has such a duty. This may be a cultural difference - in the UK it is still exceedingly impolite to read someone else's mail without first being offered it by the person concerned, no matter how close your relationship (genetic or social) with them (I think husbands and wives may be an exception - still impolite but not exceedingly so) > On the hypothetical about the drug dealer and his buyers, sellers and account info: > As a (insert your country) citizen, isn't it your duty to inform the authorities of > such crimes? Obstruction of justice comes to mind, for one (U.S.A). That is a very nasty moral grey area. A similar question has been asked by people repairing video cassette machines: if I find evidence that someone has gone to great, even destructive, trouble to remove a jammed cassette from a machine, should I report a suspicion about (e.g.) obscene videos? I don't have a solution to this moral problem. I don't know whether I have a stronger duty to my country (or the laws thereof) or to the person I'm dealing with. But I don't think I have a duty to pry where I'm not wanted in order to incriminate people. Police detectives are employed for that purpose. > And that situation about the 'shrink' failing to wipe his drive of very private and > sensitive info before selling it was just plain irresponsible. Would he throw out > letters or whole files without first shredding them? It is _*HIS*_ responsibility > for those papers, as is it his ethical duty to guard those papers and files he > stores in his office. Heck, the police needs a search order to gain access to those > files, why should one have access to those files, paper and other types, simply > because he/she failed to delete or shred them before a sell? <( or he/she moves to > another office and leaves her filing cabinet at old office?) If my information > were in that drive and i found out about it, I would demand he lost his license for > incompetence. You seem to be pointing to a view almost opposite to that you expressed earlier, here. If the police need a warrant to examine these files, someone who accidentally stumbles on them (say on the hard disk of an old machine) surely cannot have a right to do very much with them... There is certainly a lot of incompetence there. And for some of it the cure is education. People should know if there is sensitive stuff on the drive. But they should be able to trust us to delete it if they can't do so. I wouldn't expect the psychiatrist to know how to wipe the drive in a computer that no longer boots, for example. But they should know enough to ask us to delete it when they give us the machine. > I would think that computer files are considered the same as paper files under the > law, again US law. Correct me if I'm wrong. Under UK law, specifically the Data Protection Act, controls on computer files are stricter than those on paper files. I don't know all the details of the act - I suppose now is the time to find out... > Anyways, if we really wanted to find the legal thing to do, one of us should contact > a lawyer friend that specializes in this. What category does this fall under anyway > (the personal information bit, not the software licenses)? The American approach. Whatever you do, ask a lawyer :-) I'd err more on the side of Least said, soonest mended. But I really don't think this problem will go away. People who use computers need to be educated in such matters. And - I claim - better not by frightening them too hard. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 6 months

1
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Status update, plus need HP 790x disc drives

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

I've finally found all the pieces to bring up my HP2000/TSB system (the last pieces I need are being shipped to me in August). For those interested, it will be the "Access" version. One thing I recently found out is that I don't have enough disk space to load the contributed library on my single 7900A drive. Would anyone happen to know of a source (or have any to spare) for 7900A, 7905, 7906 (non-H), or 7920 HP drives? One more drive would go a long way towards getting a TSB system up and running. To my knowledge (and believe me I've searched high and low) mine would be the only running TSB system left. Can anyone help me? I saw these drives for sale at crisis, but they want $2300.00 each - a difficult pill to swallow :( Jay West

26 years, 6 months

1
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What is a XEROX 3700?

by Innfogra＠aol.com

The Xerox 3700 is a high speed laser printer of the first generation. It has a built in terminal/controller. The 5 1/4" 360K floppy was used to load fonts and emulation software. Most of them were based on the Dataproducts printer interface. It was built on the chassis of a Xerox copier of the times. Usually they have a nice 5-7mw laser tube and power supply in them. I don't know of any other current use for them. Paxton

26 years, 6 months

1
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confidential info on old harddrives.

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

There are two valid and conflicting points here. The first is legal: I (not being a lawyer or anything) believe it is probably legal to take data from any system you legally acquire. The second is pragmatic: if people know that you do this, none of us will ever again get any meaningful parts of a classic machine. The ethics of the matter are another matter, but in view of the pragmatics, that seems moot. Making use of any such data is suicide, at least in the long-term. Even if you are ethically impaired enough to do this, please don't admit it in public. This list, BTW, is archived and publically available at two web sites that I know of, and maybe others that I don't. Cheers, Bill. On Sun, 30 May 1999, bluoval <bluoval(a)mindspring.com> wrote: ] Tony Duell wrote: ] > > ] > > I wasn't following this thread but here's my opinion. ] > > A buy a house and everything it contains. There just happenes to be a treasure ] > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ] > There's the first difference. In most cases you're _not_ buying a computer ] > and all the data on the hard drive. ] ] If I buy a computer w/ a hard drive, what ever data it might contain is mine also. ] The seller is/was responsable for the data on there, not the buyer. the seller ] should've deleted what he thought was sensitive information. Unless the data is ] copyrighted, I have every right to do as i please with it, which would most likely ] be erasure. Actually, this point isn't entirely right. Most likely the software on that disk was under license, which couldn't be legally transferred to you even if the seller wanted to. If you really believe you own it, try taking some not-so-terribly-old Micro$oft product from a scrap PC, making copies and reselling them. If you really own it, no big-company lawyers will have a thing to say about it. :-) ] > If I buy a computer and the seller says 'Here's the master disks for all ] > the software I installed, and here are the licenses which I'll help you ] > to transfer to your name', then I think it's reasonable to assume that ] > you're getting that software as well. If he says 'BTW, I've left the ] > source code to a <whatever> that I was working on on the hard disk, ] > please take a look' then, again, I have no problem in reading said source ] > code. ] > ] > That is _not_ what we're talking about. ] > ] > > map in there leading me to a pot of gold. who owns the gold? ME. Fine. If the seller of the computer agrees to sell you the data as well the machine itself, you own it. But when somebody sells you a house, the contract is not likely to say "house and all pots of gold contained therein", nor is the seller of a computer likely to agree that you own all data he forgot/was unable to delete. Since nobody sane would ever agree to that, you are probably on shakey ground assuming that it was part of the sale. So knowingly using it for profit or to the seller's detriment would probably put you on the losing end of a lawsuit. ] > Suppose you buy a house+contents. Stuffed down the back of a chair are ] > some old personal letters, bank statements, etc. Do you really think you ] > have the moral right to publish them? I certainly don't. ] ] I wasn't talking about morals. I'd probably find the previous owner and give ] it to them, if they wanted it. otherwise I'd trash it. I have no use for old ] letters and bank statements.... ] ] ] > I must admit that if I bought a computer and found some previous repaired ] > had left the schematics or a diagnostic module inside, I might be tempted ] > to keep them and make use of them. That's a far cry from personal data, ] > though. ] ] There have been many books published from people's personal data... diaries, ... ] Do you think these people would have wanted their data published by some person ] who just happened to find it in an attic, in a house he just bought? probably ] not, but historically they're priceless. But to publish that sort of discovery before it has properly aged would put you in the category of tabloid rather than history buff. Still legal, *maybe*, but certainly not likely to inspire future donations.

26 years, 6 months

3
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More Bringing up a CPM

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> I have some DRAM boards that I've used with my Poly88. >These are 64K boards and I thought I'd use them but the disk's >DMA doesn't seem to write to them. I'm able to read and write >from the front toggles, just not from the DMA to the RAM. > > Does anyone know what the problem is here? Is there some >timing or pin out issue with DRAMs that would cause this >to happen in a standard IMSAI 8080? I'd really like to use >this DRAM because I trust it more than the statics in the >system, at least until I get things fully functional. Welcome to the world of S-100, where DRAM boards often didn't support DMA controllers properly. In some cases, you can rejumper them so that the DMA vs refresh timing conflict isn't such a problem. But many of us just went to pure static RAM systems where DMA was being done. What disk controller are you using, BTW? In some cases the problem isn't so much the memory, but it's the disk controller. > In any case, I think just getting to the A> prompt is >a major mile stone. I had to completely write a boot loader, >CBIOS, disk formatter and serial data transfer to get this far. It certainly is a major milestone. Congratulations! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

4
3
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Ooooppss

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Sorry for the duplicate FWD.. shoulda checked *all* my messages before reacting...... I meant well, though... Cheerz John

26 years, 6 months

1
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Free to a good home... (fwd)

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Heads up in Oz, mates.... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:55:25 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Free to a good home... (fwd) ----- Forwarded message from John Dodson ----- From: John Dodson <johnd(a)physiol.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Free to a good home... Free to a good home... Complete set of RSX11-M manuals. (Yes it ran on a PDP11 ;-) Complete set of Ultrix manuals. (Oh Ok so it ran on Vaxes ;-) One or 2 PDP-11/23's + some i/o cards (I'm not making a list, YOU must look, decide & negotiate with me to let them go...) A volunteer prepared to make a list would be OK. Contact: John Dodson, Dept of Physiology, (F13) johnd(a)physiol.usyd.edu.au & Faculty of Medicine, http://www.physiol.usyd.edu.au/johnd University of Sydney, Phone +61 2 9351 3277 NSW 2006 Fax +61 2 9351 2058 Australia. Bring a strong friend when you pick it up. You have a week before the docs are trashed. The machines & cards I'll keep for a while till they find a good home. Sorry I cannot (will not) deliver. ----- End of forwarded message from John Dodson -----

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Even if you don't intend to use PROMs in your final device, I'd certainly <recommend you build a few PROMS which make the processor do rudimentary <things and perhaps which make the DMAC do the same things. You then have <simple tools with which to troubleshoot your memory interfaces. that can be helpful. I just use the CPU executing junk FF/00 or whatever else the bus lets it see, <After reading about the problems you're having, I think I'll fetch the 124 <LA out onto the patio as well. I troubleshoot 90% of my s100 problems with a good logic probe and a DVM. The rare case I've dragged out the scope it was handy but usually because I missed something stupid. The recent NS* bring up required the logic probe, its where I spotted a missing Mwrite/ (jumper smeared off the cpu board). With rare exception and all if a board doesn't work scoping it may or may not help. just follow the logic with a logic probe as likely it's a chip or socket failure. The reason is the board worked, was sold working and if it were good it should still work. The exception is when you have bus incompatability problems and a scope will not help unless your going to alter the board to make it work assuming it was not also broken. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<correctly. Hence, DRAMs before '83-84 were somewhat iffy on the S-100. B <then, of course, the S-100 was, more or less, history. One of the things There were a few that worked really well but one look at the design said why, good designs work. One of the worst ones used gate delays for the ras-muc-cas timing... <may be, but DRAMs are not as difficult or fussy as a lot of people have <said. I've designed literally dozens of different DRAM circuits which in The ones that work were near unbreakable, there wer a few notables by 1980 and by 82 a swamp of them. <DMA was popular for early FDC's in the mid '70's because 8080 processors <were too slow to get around the loop fast enough to transfer data from Not true for S100 systems. DMA was hardware intensive and the 8257 was too expensive and too difficult to use with the rather helter skelter signals. The 8080 would do SD 8" no problem and DD5.25 with not much difficulty but the programming tricks were basically ugly. CP/M only moved 128 bytes at a time, so moving multiple sectors was wasted for the most part unless you were caching. In the multibus and STD bus worlds things were quite a bit saner. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well . . . If I were in your position, and I am, sort-of, I'd have my 'scope out and be looking at the bus cycles and the memory cycles. If the DMAC on the FDC generates cycles similar to those generated by the CPU, then you're in good shape, since you then have only to make the DRAM board work with one and it will probably work with both. It's been a long time since I looked at S-100 hardware and I'm just now starting to put some boxes up in order to verify functionality of some of the dozens and dozens of boards sitting around. Since I have several of each, in many cases, I just need to figure out an appropriate way to test each one and then go through the set. For debug purposes, I may generate a PROM for each debug function I need. Firs, however, I have to haul that big Integrand box with the 8" Winchester out onto the patio and set a terninal on top of it. Even if you don't intend to use PROMs in your final device, I'd certainly recommend you build a few PROMS which make the processor do rudimentary things and perhaps which make the DMAC do the same things. You then have simple tools with which to troubleshoot your memory interfaces. After reading about the problems you're having, I think I'll fetch the 1240 LA out onto the patio as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 6:43 PM Subject: Re[4]: More Bringing up a CPM >"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >> Is there a monitor that can be run to do things like run a software loop >> to >> write to, and subsequently, read from a block of SRAM? Does that work? >> If >> you're having doubts about the memory, it might be a good idea to leave >> the >> DMA out of things for a while, at least until your confidence in your >> memories, of whichever type you decide to use, gets to where you have >> some. > > Hi > Leaving out the DMA isn't an option for doing CPM on this >setup. It is the only disk access the mechine has. > > I will do some RAM testing tonight. This may be the problem. >Like I said, I'll most likely do a March C since it is >fast and I can include a larger address than would be >practical with GALPAT. >Thanks >Dwight >

26 years, 6 months

1
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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, the DRAM circuit may work with one and not the other. I remember going through this process once with DRAMs in a ZENITH PC/AT clone. Their boards worked but my employer's didn't. I had to find a fix . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 6:27 PM Subject: Re[2]: More Bringing up a CPM >allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: >> >> See if the controller set is generating Mwrite/? > > I'll need to look. It normally works with the front >panel on the IMSAI. I just don't recall whether it >used mwrite\ or pwr\. > >> >> So, failures are to be expected and ones they've run a while you will have >> cooked out the soft parts. > > I hate that when it happens. I'd sure love to put in tried >and true boards. > >> >> Why would that be a problem if it has regulators? Assumeing of course they >> arent fried. > > They might be fried and the other boards weren't sensitive >enough to it. All regulators do is control the terminator >voltage. I may be that even fried, other boards get enough >swing but not the DRAM boards. I suspect that it is more >likely a design issue though. >Dwight >

26 years, 6 months

1
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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

of all those SRAM boards, there must be one which you believe is pretty solid. IF the bus drivers on your DRAM board are socketed, so you can remove them, perhaps you could put that board in the system as well, in parallel with a "reliable" SRAM board, and, using a monitor or some other means, toggle in a program which just does a jump to itself, followed by a single write cycle. A little imagination will yield an appropriately short loop. This should generate activity on the DRAM control lines which will enable you to observe their interaction under control of the processor. Make note of the duration of each of the control signals. Don't worry , for now about the fact that there's no refresh if there isn't any, and verify that the strobes overlap as they should and last as long as they should for the memories on the board. If there's a refresh circuit, you should be able to observe its operation while your loop isn't running. The remarks made earlier about 8080's and DRAMs are probably quite correct. Lots of DRAM boards rely on the processor to refresh the memories. Not all processors do this. In fact, not even all Z-80 processor cards do this correctly. Hence, DRAMs before '83-84 were somewhat iffy on the S-100. By then, of course, the S-100 was, more or less, history. One of the things you'll be able to do, as a consequence of this effort, is determine whether making your IMSAI work with THIS particular DRAM board is a lost cause. It may be, but DRAMs are not as difficult or fussy as a lot of people have said. I've designed literally dozens of different DRAM circuits which in almost all cases had to "look" as though they were static because no special provision for nRAS precharge or refresh could be made. If you want to use DRAMs, there's a way to make it happen. This particular board may not be the easiest way, however. You need refresh, for sure, and if this board doesn't generate it, there's a pretty easy way, by scabbing on one 16-pin DIP packaged tristate 8-bit counter or, worst-case, a PAL and maybe by swapping tri-state multiplexors for the totem pole types in the circuit (if that is what they used) that non-local accesses to either I/O or PROM can be sensed from the bus interface so you can do cycle-stealing refresh which will be completely hidden. Otherwise, you have to build a refresh timer in addition to some of this other stuff. In that case, I'd recommend another solution. DMA was popular for early FDC's in the mid '70's because 8080 processors were too slow to get around the loop fast enough to transfer data from successive sectors of the diskette. Some were too slow to transfer the data in real time at all. The DMAC was able to keep up with either. Many such DMAC's assumed some things about the system properties which were not warranted. The may have assumed the system clock to be slower than it was, or they may have assumed that there was no need for inter-cycle idle time. SRAMS didn't need such luxuries, but DRAMs generally didn't tolerate being accessed at a greater than 50% duty cycle. If you find that the DMAC is forcing data into memory in bursts which stroke the RAM with little time between access cycles, particularly if it causes the time high on nRAS to be substantially less than the time low, the circuit may not work. There is a FIX, however, which involves swapping low and high address nybbles. This will cause successive byte reads or writes to occur in separate banks of DRAM, which will, then, hopefully and depending on how the circuit is designed, make the short cycle problem go away. . . not completely of course, but sort-of. Let me know how this goes. I'm really quite happy to help with this sort of debugging. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 6:02 PM Subject: Re[4]: More Bringing up a CPM >"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >--snip-- >> Have you examined the nRAS nWE and nCAS signals to the DRAM >> with your 'scope? > > Thanks Richard, this sounds like a good place to look. > >> Where does this DMA live? Is this an i8257 on the >> controller? > > The DMA controller is all TTL, with no special controller >chip. Like I said, it is an early unit made about '77 or >so. The entire sequence is completely controlled by 2 >bipolar PROMs that are part of the controllers sequencer >and a few flip-flops to deal with the DMA acknowledge sequence. >It has been fun figuring this out to understand how to >setup data for formatting ( different than read/write ). >I'll have to look more at what and when the various >signals are generated on the bus relative to the DRAM's >signals. > I'm just not sure which direction to go from here. Should >I debug the DRAMs or look for the problem in my static >RAMs. Since I need a full boat of 64K and I have no more >static boards to put into it, I'll need to deal with what >I have. > I still have other issues to fix, like bad >select signals going to the drive ( I can only hook up >one right now ) and flaky RAMs. I have so far replaced >4 IC's and one capacitor to get this far. >Dwight >

26 years, 6 months

1
0
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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

Is there a monitor that can be run to do things like run a software loop to write to, and subsequently, read from a block of SRAM? Does that work? If you're having doubts about the memory, it might be a good idea to leave the DMA out of things for a while, at least until your confidence in your memories, of whichever type you decide to use, gets to where you have some. I have seen no evidence of any confidence testing in your RAMs, whatever they are, and until you have at least 4K in which you have confidence, you really can't do much, can you? If you do have confidence in the processor being able to read/write the DRAMs, then why not look at the access waveform timing on pins 3,4,and 15. IIRC, those are nRAS, nWE, and nCAS, and they're the ones which have to work correctly. If the processor works these devices correctly and the DMA controller doesn't, the relative timing of these strobes will be the reason. The DMAC itself may not, in fact, be causing your timing problem, in the event that's the finding, but the bus interface logic may be incompatible. I've seen some memory cards which decode sMEMWR and pDBOUT but don't use pWR, which occurs once the data is valid. If that's not the case, you may have to get out your XACTO knife, to make sure the memory isn't WRITTEN with data that's not valid. It's also possible, as old as those boards are, that they may have been designed in a way which causes incorrect bus acquisition by the DMAC. The DMAC may, therefore, be fighting with some other player on the bus. DRAM boards on a multi-card system are always difficult to debug if there isn't a program running in them because there's no really frequent cycle to use as a trigger for your 'scope. If your system can allow you to load and run a little monitor program in the DRAM board, you'll have plenty of cycles you can trigger on. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 2:44 PM Subject: RE: Re[2]: More Bringing up a CPM >> I have some DRAM boards that I've used with my Poly88. >>These are 64K boards and I thought I'd use them but the disk's >>DMA doesn't seem to write to them. I'm able to read and write >>from the front toggles, just not from the DMA to the RAM. >> >> Does anyone know what the problem is here? Is there some >>timing or pin out issue with DRAMs that would cause this >>to happen in a standard IMSAI 8080? I'd really like to use >>this DRAM because I trust it more than the statics in the >>system, at least until I get things fully functional. > >Welcome to the world of S-100, where DRAM boards often didn't >support DMA controllers properly. In some cases, you can rejumper >them so that the DMA vs refresh timing conflict isn't such a problem. >But many of us just went to pure static RAM systems where DMA >was being done. > >What disk controller are you using, BTW? In some cases the problem >isn't so much the memory, but it's the disk controller. > >> In any case, I think just getting to the A> prompt is >>a major mile stone. I had to completely write a boot loader, >>CBIOS, disk formatter and serial data transfer to get this far. > >It certainly is a major milestone. Congratulations! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 >

26 years, 6 months

2
1
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More Bringing up a CPM

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<refresh isn't the issue. Since the data isn't modified at <all by the DMA, I'd think it was a missing WR strobe or <not getting the address there at the right time. See if the controller set is generating Mwrite/? < I tend to agree here but in this case, I have 4 ea 8K, 4 ea 4K <and one 16K static cards. I can replace this with one 64K card <if I get the DMA write and read to work correctly. As I said, <these cards are old and I've already had failures with less than <20 hours of trying to bring it back up. So, failures are to be expected and ones they've run a while you will have cooked out the soft parts. < It has a terminator card in it. Since this also has voltage <regulators on it, it might even be a source of problems as well. <I'll loke at it as well. Why would that be a problem if it has regulators? Assumeing of course they arent fried. Allison

26 years, 6 months

2
1
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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

Do you know what the nature of the problem is? Does the DMA simply fail to write to the DRAMM because it doesn't write to RAM at all, or is it a DRAM timing failure? Have you examined the nRAS nWE and nCAS signals to the DRAM with your 'scope? Where does this DMA live? Is this an i8257 on the controller? If you can take a look at a repetitive read waveform set on the DRAM chips themselves, you'll easily see whether the timing is correct. The critical things are the relationships between nCAS and valid data and nCAS and nWE. nWE must end before nCAS. If the DMA will work on the SRAMs and not the DRAMs, it's probably a bus timing issue. Perhaps you have to slow down. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 2:34 PM Subject: Re[2]: More Bringing up a CPM >Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 28 May 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: >> >> Dwight, >> >> > My next question is, could someone send me an image of a >> > directory that I could use to build my disk? >> --snip-- > >> Here is an image of a 2.2 directory from an 8"SSSD disk. Hope it proves >> useful. (It is not Imsai.) > >Hi Don > Thanks a lot. As it was, I didn't need to do anything to start >the directory. If it had the original E5's in it, CPM thinks >it is an empty disk. Clever of DR, wasn't it! I'm learning >more about CPM than most people know anyway. > I was able to get a the system to the "A>" late Monday >night. I then transfered some files by my simple serial >downloader into the memory and used the SAVE command >to write them to files. I did this for the DUMP, ED, >STAT and ASM commands. DUMP and STAT seem to work >OK but I'm having troubles with ED and haven't tried >ASM yet. > The ED command has some serious troubles. It allows me to >do "I" and "T" commands but won't do a "L" or "E" commands correctly. >Saving text to a file is one of the most useful parts of >an editor but being able to move around is number 2 or 3. >Since DUMP works, I'll use that to read back what the file >has in it. If not that, I'll make an image file for CCP, BDOS >and CBIOS. I'll then be able to tell where the problem >lies. > I've had some issues with RAM loosing data but I not sure >where the problem is yet. This may be my problem. The >RAM boards I have are some older 4K, 8K and one 16K >static RAM boards that make up the needed 64K ( actually >62K ) by the CPM.SYS file I have. > I have some DRAM boards that I've used with my Poly88. >These are 64K boards and I thought I'd use them but the disk's >DMA doesn't seem to write to them. I'm able to read and write >from the front toggles, just not from the DMA to the RAM. > > Does anyone know what the problem is here? Is there some >timing or pin out issue with DRAMs that would cause this >to happen in a standard IMSAI 8080? I'd really like to use >this DRAM because I trust it more than the statics in the >system, at least until I get things fully functional. > > In any case, I think just getting to the A> prompt is >a major mile stone. I had to completely write a boot loader, >CBIOS, disk formatter and serial data transfer to get this far. >My longest to trouble shot problem was the difference >between JNC and JC used with SUB. >Dwight >

26 years, 6 months

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Micro/Vax/Station 2000 question

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>That little bit of experiment also required me to change my >password - again. Is there any way to kill the calendar expiration of >passwords? For my usage, I'd be happy if it didn't even look for one! $ mcr authorize UAF> help modify /expiration MODIFY /EXPIRATION /EXPIRATION=time (default) /NOEXPIRATION Specifies the expiration date and time of the account. The /NOEXPIRATION qualifier removes the expiration date on the account or resets the expiration time for expired accounts. The default expiration time period is 90 days for nonprivileged users. Does this help? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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confidential info on old harddrives.

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Bluoval wrote: > I wasn't following this thread but here's my opinion. > A buy a house and everything it contains. There just happenes to be a treasure > map in there leading me to a pot of gold. who owns the gold? ME. Hang on. Says who? Taking the case of real estate - where the laws tend to be different from other cases - if you buy some property, you own everything on the property that was legitimately there (not stolen goods, for example) on the date that ownership is transferred. So if the gold is on your property, it's yours, whether or not there's a map. If the gold is not on the real estate you bought, ownership hasn't passed with the property, even if you did find the treasure map. I know that the analogy doesn't really stretch that far, but just because you have the data (map) doesn't mean you have a right to publish or otherwise make use of it (dig up gold). > Tony Duell wrote: > >> There's the first difference. In most cases you're _not_ buying a computer >> and all the data on the hard drive. > > If I buy a computer w/ a hard drive, what ever data it might contain is mine also. > The seller is/was responsable for the data on there, not the buyer. the seller > should've deleted what he thought was sensitive information. Unless the data is > copyrighted, I have every right to do as i please with it, which would most likely be > erasure. This way lies major legal tangles. Copyright law in the US tends to be different from the rest of the world, but over here AFAIK if you put your name and the date on it, it is your copyright unless someone can prove that they had their name and a genuine earlier date on it. So any data you find, which will presumably have been date stamped by the filing system, and may be user stamped as well (or identified as the user's in some other way) is arguably automatically copyrighted. As far as publication is concerned, if you publish sensitive information about a person, there may be an action for defamation or some similar offence even if it is true. If it ain't true, there is an action for libel. Did you check truth before you published?.... > I wasn't talking about morals. I'd probably find the previous owner and give it to > them, if they wanted it. otherwise I'd trash it. I have no use for old letters and > bank statements.... So you weren't talking about morals. Maybe you should have been thinking about them, though. If someone makes a mistake and you discover it, what should you (morally) do? Exploit it for financial gain? Or help them put it right? > There have been many books published from people's personal data... diaries, love > letters, ect.. especially items found on/around important dates and events. > Letters/ pictures/diaries from the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WW, WWII, ect... > sketches and drawings for some wacky invention..... all of these things were , at > one time by someone, considered personal data. many times we learn from them. Do > you think these people would have wanted their data published by some person who just > happened to find it in an attic, in a house he just bought? probably not, but > historically they're priceless. There have indeed. Generally after copyright has expired, which in most countries now happens 50 or 70 years after the death of the writer. In the case of war diaries and the like, these are usually published with the permission, if not the active co-operation, of the author. This is a useful guide for when personal data ceases to be sensitive - 50 to 70 years after the death of the person concerned. For me, the bottom line is more like: If you find sensitive data on a hard disk, there _may_ be legal loopholes that allow you to use it. But they are fewer than you might think. And (a) should you morally do so? And (b) do you want to bring classic computer collectors into disrepute by doing so? Philip.

26 years, 6 months

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MicroVax 2000 external hard drive question

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The drive is growing errors... Each pass through the formatter <finds additional bad sectors, so I want to disable it and install/ It's crashed. Pull it. Swap the other into the box as they are interchangeable. Just match the external RD54s jumpers to the defunct internal one. <run Ultrix from the external drive (if it is easy) until I get <around to pulling the internal drive and replacing it. Otherwise, <I have to disassemble both boxes to swap the drives, which I would <prefer to avoid (because I'm lazy :) You'll look longer for the cables and if the VS2000 box does not have the cable adaptor section where will you plug it? A lot of the VS2000s didn't have the adaptor (2" bottom addotion), I know I have three that didn't so doing external cables/drives is a PITA. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<timing failure? Have you examined the nRAS nWE and nCAS signals to the DRA <with your 'scope? Where does this DMA live? Is this an i8257 on the <controller? I'll bet not. Ramtiming is not half the problem on s100 as the general design of the board. Some of the Dram cards use the inactive bus state of the 8080/z80 to do hidden refresh, some do it after every nth read or 16us which ever come first, a few try to hide it as part of a read or write. Most all do not have any arbitration to resolve a DMA request. generally DMA and S100 before 1980or later was at best an iffy situation and only likely to work if a whole cardset of a given vendor was used. The reason for the latter was the interpretation of s100 was not stable till 79ish or later (actually even after the 696 spec was published). Anyhow, do to timing vaiations, arbitration problems and many poor DRAM designs most people prefered static and avoided DMA. The only two systems I know of that DMA is Compupro and Ithica Intersystems. There are a few slaves (JADE, IMSAI (8080/372based) but, most used the main cpu in a tight loop doing PIO. Oh, yes, that reminds me. Some of the DRAM cards really hated the Floppy cards that would do a wait/data stall by pulling PWAIT to keep the CPU in sync without testing a port bit (northstar, MDC, others). Allison

26 years, 6 months

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Sparc date problems & 3/60 HW needed

by a2k＠one.net

Hello, I have a Sun SparcII (RHL 4.2) that has a date problem-- no, he has plenty of girls, ;) but the time and date keep getting reset on every boot.. there have also been problems with getting it to boot (kernel shits itself) and takes 15 or so tries before it boots correctly.. then sometimes crashes at that point. Any ideas? Also, I have a Sun 3/60 that I would like to put SunOS or BSD on to use as my mail server or just to have running.. I need a keyboard, monitor, tape, external hard disk, and probably media unless I can write to the tapes >from my SparcII. Thanks, Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3

26 years, 6 months

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What is a XEROX 3700?

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I spotted several of them this morning. What are they? They have a separate keyboard and the CRT on the left side of the unit and a 5 1/4" HH floppy disk drive mounted vertically on the RH side. They're about 18" deep and 13" tall and 14" wide. The front of the unit hangs out over the front feet the same way that a Apple Lisa does. Joe

26 years, 6 months

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another problem Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Re[2]: More Bringing up a CPM >I've determined that I'm missing the doc's supporting my SMS/OMTI Series-10 >SCSI/SASI (probably SASI) 8" hard disk bridge adapter. Anything detailed >would be very helpful, I think. > >For years the manual was sandwiched between the drive's logic board and the >Series-10 controller, but now that I need it, it's missing . . . > >Oh, well . . . > >Dick > > >

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by elvey＠hal.com

Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> wrote: > On Fri, 28 May 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > Dwight, > > > My next question is, could someone send me an image of a > > directory that I could use to build my disk? > --snip-- > Here is an image of a 2.2 directory from an 8"SSSD disk. Hope it proves > useful. (It is not Imsai.) Hi Don Thanks a lot. As it was, I didn't need to do anything to start the directory. If it had the original E5's in it, CPM thinks it is an empty disk. Clever of DR, wasn't it! I'm learning more about CPM than most people know anyway. I was able to get a the system to the "A>" late Monday night. I then transfered some files by my simple serial downloader into the memory and used the SAVE command to write them to files. I did this for the DUMP, ED, STAT and ASM commands. DUMP and STAT seem to work OK but I'm having troubles with ED and haven't tried ASM yet. The ED command has some serious troubles. It allows me to do "I" and "T" commands but won't do a "L" or "E" commands correctly. Saving text to a file is one of the most useful parts of an editor but being able to move around is number 2 or 3. Since DUMP works, I'll use that to read back what the file has in it. If not that, I'll make an image file for CCP, BDOS and CBIOS. I'll then be able to tell where the problem lies. I've had some issues with RAM loosing data but I not sure where the problem is yet. This may be my problem. The RAM boards I have are some older 4K, 8K and one 16K static RAM boards that make up the needed 64K ( actually 62K ) by the CPM.SYS file I have. I have some DRAM boards that I've used with my Poly88. These are 64K boards and I thought I'd use them but the disk's DMA doesn't seem to write to them. I'm able to read and write >from the front toggles, just not from the DMA to the RAM. Does anyone know what the problem is here? Is there some timing or pin out issue with DRAMs that would cause this to happen in a standard IMSAI 8080? I'd really like to use this DRAM because I trust it more than the statics in the system, at least until I get things fully functional. In any case, I think just getting to the A> prompt is a major mile stone. I had to completely write a boot loader, CBIOS, disk formatter and serial data transfer to get this far. My longest to trouble shot problem was the difference between JNC and JC used with SUB. Dwight

26 years, 6 months

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More Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've determined that I'm missing the doc's supporting my SMS/OMTI Series-10 SCSI/SASI (probably SASI) 8" hard disk bridge adapter. Anything detailed would be very helpful, I think. For years the manual was sandwiched between the drive's logic board and the Series-10 controller, but now that I need it, it's missing . . . Oh, well . . . Dick

26 years, 6 months

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HP 9000/20 needs software

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

Title pretty much says it all. Over the long weekend (where did it go?) I finally got time to check out and power up the HP 9000/20 (aka: 9000/520) that recently joined the collection. It woke up without incident (tho there is still something rattling around in the monitor that I have not been able to find yet), but now needs something to run. You can only look at the "Looking for System" prompt for so long... So... (since I know there are at least one or two of these things in this group) What runs on this critter? And can someone provide copies of some disks? Diagnostics perhaps? Or dare I think it... Docs??? B^} I already suspect that I'm going to have to find a hard drive to go along with the unit to make it really happy, yes? Obvious by now that I've never worked with this particular unit before? Thanks! -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live!

26 years, 6 months

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Apple ProFILE Help Needed

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 09:35 PM 5/17/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 17 May 1999, David Williams wrote: > >> I suspect it will take more than an LLF. I've now notice that >> sometimes when I power it on, it fails the startup tests and never >> reaches a ready state. Of course maybe an LLF would fix that but >> I don't know. I haven't been able to get it to access the catalog on >> the drive though formatting under ProDOS now always claims to >> work where it would fail before. The clicking sound it makes is >> pretty loud and annoying and I'm sure a LLF won't help that. Does >> anyone know if you used the same Apple II interface card for the 5 >> meg and 10 meg ProFILEs? > >Sounds like its dying. Might be time for a little home clean room to >repair it. Go back and find the dicussion from several months back that >talked about building a clean box. Ok, going out on a limb here (not my first time)... The infamous 'low level format' may indeed address the problem, but it's not nearly as easy to do in this case as one might expect... First: a couple of data points about the 'ProFile' drive subsystems. 1) The interface is just an over-glorified bi-directional parallel port! (witness that to use it with a LISA, you run a straight-thru cable from the ProFile to the parallel port on the LISA) 2) the drive in the ProFile is a 5 or 10 meg Shugart 4XX series mechanism, but with an Apple custom logic board installed. So forget just about everything you know about formatting hard drives... 3) you never directly address the drive in a ProFile, you issue commands to the logic board in the ProFile, and it talks to the drive... 4) IIRC: one of the power up tests that the ProFile does (it has been a while since I went thru Apple training on this critter) is a read test on selected tracks on the drive. If this test fails (due to mechanical failure or bit-rot) the drive will never come 'ready' 5) There is no inherent 'format' command in the ProFile controller logic. To enable formatting capability you have to install a special chip (according to rumour: a Z-80 with a piggyback EPROM) into a vacant socket on the ProFile logic board, power up the unit and issue a special command. (I doubt it matters what machine it is connected to at the time) 6) Running the 'format' command from ProDos (LISA office, etc...) does little more than initialize the directory tracks in a form that ProDos (or whatever) expects. It does no actual 'formatting' of the drive proper... (man, where have we heard of THIS strategy before?) Now, having said that... It's quite possible that the problem may be little more than bit-rot due to the degredation of the magnetic domains on the drive platters. (or it really could be busted, but let's think good thots here) Also, power failures during writes could honk up the drive real easily... The real trick here however is coming up with the little format enabler chip and the proper incantation to mumble at it! There have been stories of people who have opened up their ProFiles and found the previously mentioned socket occupied by the magic module, but last time I looked in mine I was not one of the fortunate (?) ones... The real downer in this, is that we are all likely to be impacted by this somewhere along the way... -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

26 years, 6 months

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Info needed: HP1000F/2117F

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Since I have two 2117F's at home, I'll answer this one... You wrote... >And one of these cases where documentation can be TOO old... My one >vintage HP catalog predates these CPUs by a couple of years. The catalog >only lists the HP2116. Your machines are F series, the very last of the 1000 line I believe. The 2116 is one of the first. You've got both ends of the spectrum there ;) Bear this in mind, memory related cards go in the front card cage, i/o related cards in the rear card cage. There is no relationship between slot1 in front and slot1 in back. In the front card cage, the top three slots must be used for a specific card in each slot, in the remaining slots order isn't important (there are a few exceptions to this). In the rear, order isn't important except the slot number (octal select code) determines the interrupt priority of the board. Some OS's in the 1000 line expect certain cards to be in certain slots. In addition, the OS on your disks was likely genned to expect a certain card in every slot. I'm at work at the moment, so if there's any of the following notes I'm not sure of, email me over the weekend when I'm at home and I can clarify. > DCPC Dual Channel Port Controller this is basically a card that provides two independent DMA channels for any I/o cards in the rear panel. Must go in top slot, front card cage. Attach ribbon cable. > 13037 intf The 13037 is a disk controller for 7900A, 7905, 7906, 7920, and possibly 7925 drives. Different models of the 13037 could also support HP-IB as well as direct connect style drives. This card should go to a 5 inch tall rack mount box which contains a microprocessor board and several interface boards. Cables from the 13037 rack mount box then go to the drives. > Memory Protect This is an optional memory protect card. ISTR it has to do with handling parity errors instead of just halting the cpu. This must go in the front cage, second slot from the top. > Grd true in/out Grd true in/out is an I/o card used for line level interfacing (process control, etc.) > M.E.M. This is a Memory Expansion Module. It was necessary if the machine contained more that 64k of ram. Bear in mind that it is only usefull if the ROM's that go with it are in the Firmware accessory board. The firmware accessory board usually attached to the bottom cpu card and hung underneath it on the back right. The firmware roms provided some extra instructions for memory management (ie. setting up paging). This must go in the front cage, third slot from the top. > Grd true in/out Same as above. > 64k HSM 64k ram card. > 12747H Microcircuit The microcircuit interface ISTR is a 40 bit card to interface to external TTL levels. I'll have to look this up. Might also have been used to connect an I/O extender box, don't recall at the moment. > 64k HSM 64k ram card. >12747H BACI 12966A The 12966A baci card (buffered async control interface) is an RS232 port for you. One of the better models, actually. > 64k HSM 12747H another 64k ram card. > 7970 Mag Tape 2 The 7970 mag tape 2 card isn't for a second tape drive, it's the 2nd card in a two controller set for the 7970 tape drive. > 64k HSM 12747H another 64k ram card. > 7970 Mag Tape 1 The 7970 mag tape 1 is part of a 2 card set for a 7970 1/2 tape drive. the real number is 13181 or 13183 depending on the model 7970 it went to. > 64k HSM another 64k ram card. > Line Printer Dunno about the line printer designation, but it should be obvious. probably gpib interface. > 64k HSM 12747H another 64k ram card. > Time Base Gen The time base generator is a card used to provide various timing circuits. It does more than just act as a system clock, but that's the best way to describe it. Whether a TBG card is needed depends on the OS you load and the software features (modules) you use with it. > Mem Contr 2102E F.E.M. This is the main memory controller for all those 64k ram cards. there is a ribbon cable to attach it to each 64k ram card. > Main Logic? (under chassis) This is the cpu card itself. Look for the firmware accessory board attached underneath the cpu card in the back right. It holds instruction set additions typically. >Machine 2 Front card cage Rear card cage > > DCPC same as above > Jumper This was used in the I/o card cage if a card was not present. It just preserved the interrupt priority chain; normally empty non-adjacent slots are not allowed (unless you're doing all polling mode without need for arming the interrupts). > Memory Protect > I/O Buffer > M.E.M. all same as above > 8 Chan Mux I would need a part number, but sounds similar to the 12920/12921 mux controller. Multiple serial ports for terminals, printers, etc. > Standard Memories Bus I/O > (256k memory) > Standard Memories > (256k memory) Not familiar with these, they sound 3rd partyish to me, probably memory... > Disc Intf 2 the second controller of a two controller set, likely a 13210. This was used ONLY for 7900A disk drives. > 256kw 12749H 256kw ram. > Disc Intf 1 the first controller of a two controller set, likely a 13210. only 7900a again. > 256kw 12749H 256kw ram > Mem Contr 2102E same as above system > BACI 12966H same as above system > 12821A Disc Intf I don't recall for sure, but I *THINK* this might be for fixed head disks (earlier than the 7900A's). 2313 I think? Ahhh.. bad memory in my brain :) > Time Base Gen same as above > F.E.M. FEM or MEM? in a card cage, I would expect it to be MEM, same as above. Otherwise, an educated guess would be some type of firmware board. > Main Logic? (under chassis) same as above. >1, 2, 3, 4 Need to look up the part number for those. Possibly PSI's (programmable serial interface), used to hook up graphics terminals (one DB25 for keyboard, one DB25 for display). >I still need to find docs on this critter and the cards. I have a virtually complete documentation set for the above, sans a few of the cards. >After the usual pre-launch checks, all of the (apparently) optional cards >were removed from the card cages and the units were powered up. Curiously, >they both act identically in that they seem to have some front panel >function, but the CPUs seem to be hung pretty hard. The front panel on the 21mx line is pretty straigforward. A&B are registers, M is the memory location you want to look at, T is the contents of that location, P is the program counter, and S is a general purpose status register. The only thing not intuitive is that only when the T register is displayed and you press the store switch, the M register is automatically incremented for you (any other time you use the INC M button). Initially I found this annoying, but it is handy. Note that the A and B registers are memory locations 0 and 1 respectively - so they should be the same. As a test, try clearing register a, set a bit pattern, then press store. Then set the M register to zero, store, then look at T. It should be the same pattern you stored in A. Other important notes for a checkout - upon powerup, look at the very bottom row of lights (a/b/m/t/p/s). Only one should be lit. If more of them are lit, it indicates several different problems, the most likely of which is memory configuration/parity error. If the machine has the power fail option, deadness upon powerup can mean that the batteries are no longer sustaining memory. The system disables some functions to alert you of this. There is a way to clear this condition, but I need to check the manual when I get home. Another thing you can try is selecting the S register, clearing all bits, store, then set bits 6 through 11 to octal 13 (doesn't matter if there's a card in slot 13). Press preset, then IBL. If the overflow light comes on, nothing was loaded from ROM and you have a real problem. Otherwise... Then point the M register to 37777 and look at the T register. Instead of the zeros normally present on power up, you should see the contents of boot rom loader 00 are present (hit INC M to step up). The changing pattern will tell you it was able to load the boot loader. The 37777 memory location moves depending on how much ram is in the system. Finally, the 2117F should go through a powerup POST type test. Depending on battery charge (if the power fail option is present) sometimes it can take 20 seconds sometimes 30 minutes or so, but eventually if the system is 100% you should see the leftmost 5 bits or so on the display counting up as it checks memory. Since I'm at work and not at home, I'm reciting all this from memory. I could have easily left something out or said something wrong. Feel free to email me over the weekend on anything you have questions about. >No odd sounds or loss of magic smoke, so an initial suspicion is a >configuration error common to both units. The card cages only have >specific card notations on a couple of slots, so there is the obvious >question of proper card positioning. (no idea if the cages are a parallel >bus or not) The machines in question are using HSM type memory, which had a slightly strange setup compared to the memory subsystems in the other HP systems I also have (2113B 2109B) and work with more often. There are some real specifics related to slots and ribbon cables in the front card cage. When I get home I'll check how my 2117F's (which are running fine) are configured. Jay West

26 years, 6 months

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confidential info on old harddrives.

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> I think I have mentioned this before, but at work I have been told that I > cannot have a disused tape _drive_ decause it has been used to back up > payroll data. I realise that this is just the over exagerrated paranoia of Ouch! I wasn't refused the tape drive on these grounds, but I was refused the tapes. In vain did I try and point out that this drive was never used for recording computer data - it was a very nice analogue machine used for recording machine vibrations etc. for later analysis back at the lab... Philip.

26 years, 6 months

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DEC treasure trove available

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- PG Manney <manney(a)hmcltd.net> wrote: > > >At 02:27 AM 5/31/99 -0400, PG Manney wrote: > >>I have a friend (Yes, Virginia, I have two friends) who's been a DEC > >>repairman for many years. He now wants to get rid of the accumulated a lot > >>of stuff in his barn, and has asked me to help get rid of it. > > > >Obvious first question: Where is this barn? > > > Behind his house. Where else? <g> (couldn't resist that!) > > In Northern Ohio, about halfway between Cleveland and Toledo. 44846 ZIP. > Tiny place called Milan. Woo Hoo! Close enough for a Road Trip! (Columbus is 2 hours south of Cleveland) I already put my requests in. The only outstanding question is how long ago did this guy start picking stuff up. I have an abundance of 1980's QBus stuff; I'm more interested in the odder stuff. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

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DEC treasure trove available

by manney＠hmcltd.net

Thank you for the great response. We'll be getting together soon to go over the stuff, and we'll be contacting people directly. You all have done me many favors over the past couple 'a years, and I want to channel at least SOME stuff into the hands of the people who will appreciate it. Please feel free to keep emailing wants. oh, yeah -- I'll consider trades. Photo or modern PC equipment... Ferrarris also considered. P Manney >I have a friend (Yes, Virginia, I have two friends) who's been a DEC >repairman for many years. He now wants to get rid of the accumulated a lot >of stuff in his barn, and has asked me to help get rid of it. > >I'm not sure I have the time to make a complete catalogue of all his stuff. >Anyway, I know squat about big iron, and therefore don't know what's >valuable to people. > >Please, therefore, email me with your wants -- anything from, "I'll take >anything" to "keep an eye out for this widget". I have no idea what he wants >for all of this, bit I doubt he's out to gouge. > >manney(a)hmcltd.net >pgphoto(a)ragemail.com > >P Manney >"Y1K caused the Dark Ages." >Thousands of discounted photo items at http://www.hmcltd.net/pgphoto >-----Original Message----- >From: Colan Mitchell <cdrmool(a)interlog.com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:37 PM >Subject: confidential info on old harddrives. > > >> >>If this is a ? thats been dealt with before I joined the list my >>apologies. >> I repeatedly come across personal and confidential information on >>discarded computers. I sit and shake my head in shock. Lawyers seem to >>be the worst. I have considered contacting the original owners and >>educating them about practicing safe hex but, especially in the case of >>lawyers and women, don't want to have them freak out and think I'm being >>weird and calling the police. On the other hand I feel that I should do >>something. In the end I just format the drives and forget about it. >> Has anyone experienced contacting an original owner? What was the >>response. This is something that I've not read about in the media as Y2K >>and Hackers get all the press but I suspect this is a bigger potential >>problem. >> >> >>Colan >> >> >> >> >> > >

26 years, 6 months

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DEC treasure trove available

by manney＠hmcltd.net

>At 02:27 AM 5/31/99 -0400, PG Manney wrote: >>I have a friend (Yes, Virginia, I have two friends) who's been a DEC >>repairman for many years. He now wants to get rid of the accumulated a lot >>of stuff in his barn, and has asked me to help get rid of it. > >Obvious first question: Where is this barn? Behind his house. Where else? <g> (couldn't resist that!) In Northern Ohio, about halfway between Cleveland and Toledo. 44846 ZIP. Tiny place called Milan.

26 years, 6 months

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National SC/MP data

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Today I bought a SC/MP wirewrapped board. Does anyone know of a site with <> data sheet? My search came up with what is known as "SC/MP II", including I do have a massive amount of dat for the sc/mp Pmos part. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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National SC/MP data

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 30, 12:24, Allison J Parent wrote: > Subject: Re: National SC/MP data > <Hi all, > <Today I bought a SC/MP wirewrapped board. Does anyone know of a site with > <data sheet? My search came up with what is known as "SC/MP II", including > <description of a "MK14" project in Practical Electronics mag. In > <particular, the chip on my board requires an unknown neg. voltage on pin > <40, instead of +5 Volts on the later NMOS versions. The actual part No. is > <ISP-8A/500D A while ago, I found a website dealing with MK14 things at http://members.aol.com/mk14emu/ It includes a copy of of the PE review. > I have a working example of the inexpensive board national sold with that > chip, 256bytes of ram and a monitor. > > I'd doubt there is a site with a data sheet unless someone got permission > form National Semi to scan one. The Introkit and the MK14 are very similar. The site I mentioned above has part of the SC/MP data sheet, the MK14 circuit diagram and parts lists, and programing information. Now all I need is the SC/MP chip. Related topic: has anyone here come across a small micro called a Scrumpi, based ob the SC/MP? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

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Updates to Secret Weapons of Commodore

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1845 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990530/cc1bcf38/at…

26 years, 6 months

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ENIAC-on-a-Chip

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What extra do you (as a software hacker) get from this chip that you <wouldn't get from a software emulator of the Eniac running on (say) a PC? A grade in an EE course where there is a required project to create a system on a chip. In software 311 you do the emulator for the PC. ;) Allison

26 years, 6 months

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International shipping Vintage S-100 cards

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 5/29/99 6:28:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com writes: > Yes, but shipping to the UK would be too expensive :-) Effective May 30th, 1999 the United States Postal Service changed it's "Global Priority Flat Rate Envelope" service to $9 US for up to 4 pounds if it will fit in a USPS 10"X12" Envelope. This size package would take a couple of S100 cards wrapped in anti-stat & bubble wrap. This is a much cheaper international rate that the USPS is starting to promote. Their web site is www,usps.com. The rate calculators work best. The new international rate sheet is in Adobe pdf format and loads slowly (19 pages). The calculators are html but are not updated yet. A 6"X8" envelope is $5, and, I think, up to 4 pounds. I have used the small envelope to ship software to Hong Kong.

26 years, 6 months

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Looking for...Hayes Chronograph

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: Does anyone remember this Hayes novelty? I saw a pic in an old magazine and thought what a neat idea -- a serial programmable clock in the same case as a Hayes Modem. If anyone comes across one of these, I'd be interested in it. Also, if anyone has a manual for this, let me know. In the absence of an actual clock, maybe I can hack one together with Stamp. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 6 months

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ENIAC-on-a-Chip

by hhacker＠home.com

The place where you get the results of an ENIAC is, of course, in the programming of this single-chip ENIAC emulator. Now, I too, would like to have the real thing (how many were made?) but, I do not expect my want to be fulfilled. Yet, via this chip, I may still afford myself the pleasure of programming an ENIAC. For the hardware tinkering people on this list, I can understand their dissatisfaction. For those of us who want to experience the software/user side of things, this chip is not so much of a disappointment. William R. Buckley From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> >Amen, Max. The only thing one would probably get out of that 'radio' would >be a work-alike thing. Exactly the same for that ENIAC-on-a-chip. >Work-alike, probably, but no where near the same as having either the real >thing or a functional replica with tubes/relays/other fun parts. > >Regards, Chris, an old radio collector (or rather, collector of old radios :)

26 years, 6 months

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National SC/MP data

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Hi all, Today I bought a SC/MP wirewrapped board. Does anyone know of a site with a data sheet? My search came up with what is known as "SC/MP II", including a description of a "MK14" project in Practical Electronics mag. In particular, the chip on my board requires an unknown neg. voltage on pin 40, instead of +5 Volts on the later NMOS versions. The actual part No. is: ISP-8A/500D Thanks, -Dave

26 years, 6 months

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confidential info on old harddrives.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<A last thought on this for you legal guys out there! Would'n it be <sensible to design some kind of 'declaration of trust' regarding private <content of equipment. So that the receivers can be held responsable for No, you that declare you are repsonsable where you formally were not. You then place yourself in a position of trust for the data. If your disk cleaning efforts were not adaquate and someone read them and misused the findings YOU ARE IN TROUBLE and the original owner can sue you for breech of contract. Liability is then directed to you, and the original owner then has limited libility, both the donator and thir clients can sue you for cause. Don't go there unless you want to make it a business. <any irrisponsable disclosure of private data. And also that the donator <has signifies that he has (had) knowledge about the informational <content of his donation. In serious cases a Judge may decide who has <acted liable. But most of ours would live by such a contact and it may <endorse reliable image about the restoration and preservation of classic <hardware & software. If it's important, maybe. Consider that no responseable source of significant equipment would leave mission critical data or files behind unless the equipment were inoperable. In that case you may wish to operate as an agent to that donator... be careful as you are taking the role of a contract engineer to them and if you fail to recover the data and loose it or fail to remove it totally you may be in trouble. Again desireable equipment may warrent. I did some checking and here is my lawyer friends call: You get a system with stuff on the disk. They (donator) failed to perform due dilligence and due care in maintaining confidence. IF and unless there is a provable agreement that data is fair game. The however of this is while they may loose in a suit, everyone would in the process so long as there is not malicious intent on the part of the person that recieved the equipment. They (donator) would injure themselves, their clients and it would cost to defend. In short you can be sued, they would likely loose, it's costly to win on both sides and the would not help anyone and would hut everyone. Best bet is if you find crap on the disk and have not been asked or told, delete it and forget it. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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National SC/MP data

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Hi all, <Today I bought a SC/MP wirewrapped board. Does anyone know of a site with <data sheet? My search came up with what is known as "SC/MP II", including <description of a "MK14" project in Practical Electronics mag. In <particular, the chip on my board requires an unknown neg. voltage on pin <40, instead of +5 Volts on the later NMOS versions. The actual part No. is <ISP-8A/500D That is the early Pmos part (SC/MP and not the II) and the voltage there is -7v (Vgg). Never saw that particular schematic (Practical Elect.) there was one in an early kiloboaud, byte or interface age you could look at for more info. I have a working example of the inexpensive board national sold with that chip, 256bytes of ram and a monitor. I'd doubt there is a site with a data sheet unless someone got permission form National Semi to scan one. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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ENIAC-on-a-Chip

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<It uses about 175,000 transistors! Wow, what an increase, just think of a <computer with 175,000 triodes, and compare that to an ENIAC (much less, <the power required). Or some years later, one with 175,000 discrete <transistors. Now that I remember, this was a thread some months ago... top <speed, etc. <-Dave Your babbeling. The original use some 15000 tubes of single and dual types. The interconnecting logic used many diodes. What is missed is the in many of the tube (early transistor too) machines pulse transformers, diodes and capacitors were used to interconnect logic elements. To perform the same logical function of a tube FF on a CMOS FPGA/FPLA you will not less than 6-10 transistors due mostly to differeing interconnect schemes and tube logic have load resistors where cmos having a complmentary transistor. The difference showing in the power used (15KW VS ~1-2W). The key is they are implementing archetecture not direct circutry. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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ENIAC-on-a-Chip

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> There are various systems like this. The most common (in my limited <> experience) being a JTAG boundary scan. Basically, some LSI devices have < <The system Tera uses is quite similar, except that it extends to the intera <circuitry of the chip rather than just the boundary (pins) of the chip. Look again. They are likely the same thing. Most boundary scan approaches allow not the pin level output but a snapshot of the core logic to be brought out as a serial bit stream on just a few pins. It is an approximation of the PDP-8 style front pannel where most of the internal working can be seen in lights and allow diagnosing say a stuck bit in the ACC or core. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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Vintage S-100 cards

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>uPD414 is the equivalent of a 4027 DRAM (4096 x 1bits). What's a 2414? <> Did you mean 2114, or 2147? I was wrking for NEC when that part was current. I have an old catalog and the MK4027 was the one I was trying to remember. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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Vintage S-100 cards

by edick＠idcomm.com

well . . . we all know what those are. This makes a great deal more sense! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 9:55 PM Subject: Re: Vintage S-100 cards >On Sun, 30 May 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On May 29, 16:28, Don Maslin wrote: >> > Subject: Vintage S-100 cards > >________O/_______ > O\ > >> uPD414 is the equivalent of a 4027 DRAM (4096 x 1bits). What's a 2414? >> Did you mean 2114, or 2147? > >Bit of a slip twixt (thought) cup and (finger) tip. I think 2114 was the >reference I intended. > > - don > >

26 years, 6 months

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WTB original manual for Compupro 286 CPU board

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

The subject line says it all. I want an original manual for the 451C 286 CPU board. Joe

26 years, 6 months

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DEC 80-pin SIMMs???

by mark_k＠iname.com

Hi, Today I bought what I thought were three 4MB 72-pin SIMMs. On closer examination, they have *80* pins, and were made by Digital in 1991. It says 5019144-01 A1P2 on the boards. Some questions: - what system would these have been used in? - how much might they be worth? - does anyone need any 4MB 80-pin SIMMs? -- Mark

26 years, 6 months

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ENIAC-on-a-Chip

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I am a radio collector. I know what you're saying. I have one of these "Modern" radios - it's a Crosley Metro. While it would fool a non - collector, since it looks like the original, a collector would know that the tape deck doesn't belong there :) What should be done, is that a "knobs and switches (and whatever else is needed)" interface that hooks to the "modern" interface, with the chip in it (or just put the chip in the other interface). While not being the original, it'll still give the feel of the original. It'll use a LOT less power, too :) ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 1:48 PM Subject: Re: ENIAC-on-a-Chip > >Maybe you don't see what I'm saying (and I don't know any reason for >insults, either). Let's say you're a radio collector. You want a certain >old radio, which you would never be able to own. Somebody gives you a >modern radio with the same circuit layout but the old components have been >replaced by modern ones. Such a radio could fit on a circuit board 2" >sq. if done with surface mount. It works the same way. Would you take this >radio, and say 'hell, if I want, I can add the old-fashioned knobs later'? >I doubt it. Now, granted, this is the only kind of ENIAC anyone will ever >be able to own, but I'm dubious about how similar the experience would be >to running a real ENIAC. > > --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > >

26 years, 6 months

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ENIAC-on-a-Chip

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Look what those wacky college students are up to now: http://www.ee.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]

26 years, 6 months

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ENIAC-on-a-Chip

by hhacker＠home.com

Sellam: Comments like this are a bit condecending, lacking a kind disposition to others. Your point is important but, you could give it without so much venom. William R. Buckley If you're so indignant you can always build a "knobs and >switches" interface to settle your neurosis. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---

26 years, 6 months

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Vintage S-100 cards

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 29, 16:28, Don Maslin wrote: > Subject: Vintage S-100 cards > > I just acquired a number of vintage (circa 1977) S-100 cards. They are > listed below: > > 3) Processor Technology 16k(?) RAM cards - one fully populated with > NEC uPD414C chips, which I take to be a 2414 clone. The other > two seem to have all of the glue chips, but no RAM. They are > identified in silkscreen as ASSY NO.203000 and in etch as 16KRA. uPD414 is the equivalent of a 4027 DRAM (4096 x 1bits). What's a 2414? Did you mean 2114, or 2147? > Anybody care? Anyone interested? Any offers? Yes, but shipping to the UK would be too expensive :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

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ENIAC-on-a-Chip

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

At 10:37 PM 5/28/99 -0700, Sam wrote: > >Look what those wacky college students are up to now: > >http://www.ee.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html > It uses about 175,000 transistors! Wow, what an increase, just think of a computer with 175,000 triodes, and compare that to an ENIAC (much less, the power required). Or some years later, one with 175,000 discrete transistors. Now that I remember, this was a thread some months ago... top speed, etc. -Dave

26 years, 6 months

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Vintage S-100 cards

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have to admit, the 2414 is a strange number to me also. I looked up the NEC DRAMs though, and the uPD414C would have been equivalent to a MOSTEK MK4027. Remember, MOSTEK was the industry leader in DRAMs in the mid-'70's. This number predates my NEC data, but uPD416C would have been the 16K version. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 7:27 PM Subject: Re: Vintage S-100 cards >On May 29, 16:28, Don Maslin wrote: >> Subject: Vintage S-100 cards >> >> I just acquired a number of vintage (circa 1977) S-100 cards. They are >> listed below: >> >> 3) Processor Technology 16k(?) RAM cards - one fully populated with >> NEC uPD414C chips, which I take to be a 2414 clone. The other >> two seem to have all of the glue chips, but no RAM. They are >> identified in silkscreen as ASSY NO.203000 and in etch as 16KRA. > >uPD414 is the equivalent of a 4027 DRAM (4096 x 1bits). What's a 2414? > Did you mean 2114, or 2147? > >> Anybody care? Anyone interested? Any offers? > >Yes, but shipping to the UK would be too expensive :-) > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York

26 years, 6 months

1
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HP2100S musings

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

A 2100S in good condition is a nice find. Is it just me or did the 2100/21MX line of HP gear suddenly get popular with collectors in the past 6 months or so? <grin> You wrote... >Some of these are pretty obvious about their functions, >but does anybody have any idea what the "DUP REG" functions >are? There were two boards in the 2100/21MX line called DUP REG. They were the 8-bit duplex register PCA and the 16-bit duplex register PCA. They are general purpose I/O interfaces. I know for sure that the 8-bit board was used almost exclusively for paper tape readers or paper tape punches. I've never seen the 16-bit board in use, so I'm not sure what it was used for. >I'm speculating that the black section is the memory subsystem >for the machine, and that the ID & DC boards have something >to do with memory addressing, decoding, etc. As I recall, you are correct in your speculation. >That's all the info. I have right now. Doesn't look to >me like there are any terminal I/O type interfaces in >the box. I haven't had the nerve yet to power it up >to see if it does anything. If any of ya'll have any info. >about this machine, I'd appreciate a shout. The 2100S gave you a choice of several different terminal interfaces. Most common for general use was the 12531A, B, C, or D. Most common for scientific use was the (IIRC) 12766 BACI. Also, the power supply in the 2100A/S was er.... not the best example of HP's usual over-engineering. Check those voltages with dummy loads before you sacrifice some cards :) I've got a fair amount of docs on the 2100A/S, but check out Jeff Moffat's website, he has some decent manuals online. Jay West

26 years, 6 months

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Vintage S-100 cards

by donm＠cts.com

I just acquired a number of vintage (circa 1977) S-100 cards. They are listed below: 3) Processor Technology 16k(?) RAM cards - one fully populated with NEC uPD414C chips, which I take to be a 2414 clone. The other two seem to have all of the glue chips, but no RAM. They are identified in silkscreen as ASSY NO.203000 and in etch as 16KRA. 1) Polymorphic Systems 8k RAM card. It is fully populated with 2102 chips. It is a product of Interactive Products Corp. 1) Processor Technology Helios II Controller - presumably for an 8" drive (two 50-pin headers). No LSI. 1) Processor Technology Formatter. Based on its 50-pin header and the header's location, I infer that this card is part of a two card set that is the Helios II listed above. Again, no LSI. 1) Percom Cassette/Terminal I/O card. Carries one each male and female 10-pin connector. Also has an SMC COM2502 chip (40-pin). There is a ~2x4" breadboard area on one end of the card. Obviously, I have no way to know if these cards are functional. However, they are clean and not beaten up. Anybody care? Anyone interested? Any offers? - don

26 years, 6 months

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What's a "computer console" selectric called?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<As an aside, there have been laser printer interfaces where the host <computer gets to control the laser engine control signals directly, <rather than talking to a 'formatter board' that turns <text/graphics/postscript/whatever into a suitable bitmap for printing. DEC LN03P (~1988), a video print engine. Used a bit map in the host computer wuth serializer, there is still a small embedded micro to cotrol the basinc mechanics. FYI: due to construction and process laser printers have to keep the paper moving or the image will be a mess. The most extreme was the LPS40 (DEC, 12/27/1997) that literally had a BA23 microvax in the base to do, networking, distributed queue management, Postscript to raster engine interpretation. It was then handed to a 4board set (bimaps and display list to raster bitmap engine) and set serially to the printengine. The printengine had 1 8085 to manage the system, 3 8749s to manage the mechanics and a 78pg11 to handle the large capacity paper input. All that was to print complex postscript pages at 40ppm. That seems obscene but starting one piece of A4 paper every 1.5 second plus between three and four peices in transit is not a trivial task. Then there was the Xerox 9700 (120ppm) monster (10+running feet of laser printer.). <Of course this is a slightly higher level than talking to the mechanics <directly, since you have a signal to tell the printer to start a page <rather than having to control the motor and clutches directly. But still, <the host computer has to monitor the Beam Detect signal and send suitably <timed pixels to the laser control input. Beam detect is a sync signal and it's all done in hardware. You get a sync and start DMAing data to a serializer at a preset clock rate. Not much different than driving a tube. <I've seen (and probably still have somewhere) plastic daisywheels with a <metal pin for the '.' , just to make the last a little longer when used <like this. My first plotter was a modified daisy mech, no daisy and a pin brazed to the solinoid. Good to 200 dpi or so. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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What's a "computer console" selectric called?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<How big is the LPS40? Can the microvax be programmed ( :) )? BTW, do you Roughly 30Dx 48Wx 38H. The microvax was running a downloaded image that was the exec and postacript interpreter. Programmable, very, as postscript has it roots in forth and contains all of the same or similar primitives plus the printing libraries. <know if the Xerox machines use any kind of common computer? At school, we Several different ones depending. Allison

26 years, 6 months

1
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More of my annoying VAXstation 3100 questions

by paul＠paul.dragontear.org

Hello, Just a quick question; I have an old NEC 3x external SCSI CDROM, and i'm in need of a CDROM for my VAXstation 3100. Assuming I found the right cables, could that CDROM be used? -paul -- paul(a)paul.dragontear.org [a paradigm of a paramount failure]

26 years, 6 months

3
2
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What's a "computer console" selectric called?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>How big is the LPS40? Can the microvax be programmed ( :) )? BTW, do you >know if the Xerox machines use any kind of common computer? Many Xerox laserprinters use a J11-based (same CPU chip as PDP-11/73, 83, 84, 93, and 94) controller. Some have it on a Q-bus backplane, but most J11-based Xerox engines that I've seen have their own custom bus. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

1
0
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PET 2001-32 available

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

Here's someone wanting to sell their PET 2001-32 (new style keyboard). Please reply directly to the seller. Reply-to: sharonklee(a)netzero.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 22:31:36 -0400 From: SLee <sharonklee(a)netzero.net> Commodore Pet Personal computer with built in screen-- the tag on the back says "Pet 20001-32" Come with a tape drive and a dual flopy disk drive. Both are separate from the main unit but connected by cable. The tag on the back of the dual floppy says "Commodore dual floppy 2040 serial number 407680" excellent condition. protected with plastic cover Both are in working condition Cables are available. Come with orginial manuals and pet magazine and game magazine --- Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 05/25/99]

26 years, 6 months

1
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Whats a MassPar?

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> Two large chassis (size of old fridge) rolled into the salvage yard near > me, labeled MassPar and one of them has 8 big, I think, MFM drives in it. > Anybody know what this stuff is, or have interest in it? Its cheap, and > looks intact and very good shape. It's a massively parallel supercomputer containing thousands of four bit processors. It's a SIMD model; i.e., the thousands of four bit processors are all executing the same instruction simultaneously. MassPar was working on special FORTRAN and C compilers to run the thing. It's controlled by a Digital Ultrix workstation, either a Firefox or a DECstation 5000 depending on its age. Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

26 years, 6 months

2
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Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, '81 was pretty late . . . CP/M-86 came out then, as did PC-DOS. Within a few years, nobody wanted to be limited by the same systems they coveted only a few years earlier. By '81, the Apple][ could be equipped with a Z80 board, a "real" FDC (Sorrento Valley Associates ?) an 80x24 display, and a hard disk if you could afford it. I recently sold the prototype of the original Apple HDC I made up in the spring of '81 together with my first ST-506. Those were the days . . . <sigh> Today I can still run CP/M but at an effective clock rate of 83MHz on my notebook . . . designing hardware involves thousands of lines of HDL, weeks in front of a simulation, and when it's done, I can't even hook up an instrument small and fast enough to inspect it because even our government can't afford one. One has to design circuits with 25% overhead so they can be inspected. Oh, well . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 8:54 PM Subject: Re: Re[4]: Bringing up a CPM ><If you're writing your own, it might be well to keep in mind that the BIOS ><used in several late-generation CP/M systems used device drivers which coul > >It was late generation in 1981! I started doing it then. CPM had a formal >product called CP/M+ (CP/M3.0) to extend that idea. > ><California Computer Systems (CCS) had a pretty nice boot process in which ><they loaded a skeletal BIOS in a 32K CP/M, since 32K was the smallest memor ><in which they claimed they could run. It wrote that to the boot blocks, > >Actualy it was 20k for cpm2.2, as it was distributed as a 20k system that >you would run movcpm on to get the xxK version you wanted. > ><then, under the control of that skeletal system, they loaded a "full-size" ><(you get to define that!) CP/M and transfer control to it. It's pretty ><solid and makes the preparation of a bootable disk a straightforward if no ><a quick process. > >Yes and they were doing it a long time back, Compupro too. Kaypro was one >of the few "boxed" system that had the rom mapped to get a large TPA. > ><IIRC, the XEROX 820 used a swapped-in BIOS which lived in PROM and was ><mapped into the TPA during file transfers, or something on that order. If > >Classic. > ><your machine can handle that, it saves on BIOS size, especially tables, etc ><and, generally speaking, if the READ operations from the TPA are from ><temprorarily mapped-in PROMs, you can overwrite the TPA in the event you'r ><loading overlays, with complete impunity. That way your blocking/deblockin ><buffer space can still reside in high memory. > >An IMSAI can neither handle that nor not handle that. The basic design >had no rom! To do that you need a prom card with a little bit of hardware >to map it with an IO port. > >The key here is to get a working system in whatever space... Why, it's the >development platfrom for itself. Once you have it running and can poke and >understand it the improvements will come. > >Allison > >

26 years, 6 months

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What's a "computer console" selectric called?

by amichael＠nortelnetworks.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin [SMTP:donm@cts.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 6:47 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: What's a "computer console" selectric called? > > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Arlen Michaels wrote: > <snip> > > Actually, the biggest challenge in interfacing this thing to a computer > was > > to sort out how to read one particular status signal from one of the > > microswitch contacts in the print mechanism, so your computer could > start > > sending the next character at just the right moment before the > mechanical > > cycle completely finished. Else your software had to pause a few > > Didn't you also have to feed it EBCDIC instead of ASCII in order for it to > 'understand' what you wanted printed? > > - don > <snip> I don't think the Model 735 Selectric could even handle EBCDIC directly. I seem to recall the electrical interface was defined as tilt-and-rotate signal names. My Selectric terminal certainly didn't do any translation by itself from character-codes to solenoid signals, at least not from ASCII. I had to do translation myself before sending to the printer. One way would have been with hardware between the computer and the Selectric, eg- using an eprom to translate each ASCII code into the correct combination of Selectric tilt-and-rotate signals. My lazier way was to simply put a look-up table in my driver code, to intercept each ASCII character enroute to the printer and translate it into the appropriate pattern of solenoid signals first. Imagine if you had to drive a dot-matrix print head with raw pin-driver signals instead of the printer hardware figuring it out for you : same kind of problem. Some vendors did indeed supply an interface that took ASCII from the computer and sent the necessary tilt-and-rotate signals out to the Selectric. Arlen -- Arlen Michaels amichael(a)nortelnetworks.com Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada

26 years, 6 months

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What's a "computer console" selectric called?

by Innfogra＠aol.com

I called them printing terminals. They had a keyboard, a printer and usually a serial interface. Besides IBM, Xerox had the 1610 Printing terminals based on the 630 printer mechanism. There was one based on the NEC spinwriter printer. GTE had the Termnet series of printing terminals (300 & 2120s) and of course the venerableTI Omni 7XX series of thermal printing terminals. If you find one of these I may have manuals. Paxton

26 years, 6 months

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What's a "computer console" selectric called?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 28, 10:37, Arlen Michaels wrote: > Subject: RE: What's a "computer console" selectric called? > > From: Don Maslin [SMTP:donm@cts.com] > > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Arlen Michaels wrote: > > > Actually, the biggest challenge in interfacing this thing to a computer > > was > > > to sort out how to read one particular status signal from one of the > > > microswitch contacts in the print mechanism, so your computer could > > start > > > sending the next character at just the right moment before the > > mechanical > > > cycle completely finished. Else your software had to pause a few > > > > Didn't you also have to feed it EBCDIC instead of ASCII in order for it to > > 'understand' what you wanted printed? > I don't think the Model 735 Selectric could even handle EBCDIC directly. I > seem to recall the electrical interface was defined as tilt-and-rotate > signal names. My Selectric terminal certainly didn't do any translation by > itself from character-codes to solenoid signals, at least not from ASCII. I > had to do translation myself before sending to the printer. One way would > have been with hardware between the computer and the Selectric, eg- using an > eprom to translate each ASCII code into the correct combination of Selectric > tilt-and-rotate signals. My lazier way was to simply put a look-up table in > my driver code, to intercept each ASCII character enroute to the printer and > translate it into the appropriate pattern of solenoid signals first. > Imagine if you had to drive a dot-matrix print head with raw pin-driver > signals instead of the printer hardware figuring it out for you : same kind > of problem. > > Some vendors did indeed supply an interface that took ASCII from the > computer and sent the necessary tilt-and-rotate signals out to the > Selectric. Coincidentally, last weekend I was going through old magazines from 1979, and found a pair of articles by Roland Perry in Practical Computing (the UK magazine, January/February 1979) describing a Selectric interface. According to the articles, there were three types: BCD, correspondence, and BCD-converted-to-correspondence. All of them use tilt-and-rotate codes, which vary according to the golfball type (BCD or correspondence) and the keyboards differ as do the golfballs. The interface was pretty simple (8 SSI TTL ICs, 14 driver transistors) but the contacts had to be re-wired to suit the terminal version. The driver code used a lookup table to convert ASCII to interface signals, sent 8-bit-parallel from an I/O port on an 8080, with two handshake lines. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

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yippee, 24 TK52-K carts

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Well after crossing my fingers I got 24 TK-52-K 1/2" tape cartridges in the mail today. I've now got a reasonable amount of media for my TK70 to chew on. These were DEC labelled tapes interestingly enough. They come with a check box to indicate "296 MB" or "95 MB" and it appears that one can use them in a TK50 as well? That would be pretty cool (not that I have a TK50, but if I did it would be cool :-) A couple of questions of course ... 1) Can use in either drive? Restrictions? 2) Is it possible to write a TK50 bootable tape on a TK70? Also I signed up for DECUS so that I could get the OpenVMS media, but haven't heard back from DECUS.org, (its been a week). Are these guys slow? --Chuck

26 years, 6 months

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IBM PS/2 L40 Power Supply

by evilnet_genesis＠hotmail.com

Hi, I’ve got a rather small problem with my old PS/2 laptop. I don’t know which power supply I have to use with it. Can somebody tell me (exactly) which power supply I have to use (voltage, needed current,…). Can I use the 5-12 V /250 W switching power supplies from PC’s? Is there any fuse or surge protection built in the L40, protecting the motherboard from too high voltage? I’ve tried it with an unstabilized 14 V transformator, and it worked for a short time, then the thermo-fuse in the transformator switched off. The L40 got two ways powering it, through the battery slot (three pins, +, -, ?) and/or using the power supply adapter. Now I need to know which of these two possibilites should I use when I have not got any batteries or accus, and need an stationary power supply which has an clear, stabilized voltage, which is the easier way? These are the specs of the machine: Machine: IBM PS/2 Model L40 SX Proc.: i386DX @ 20 Mhz RAM: 2 Mb(the two blue memory slots are still free) HDD: 60 Mb FDD: 3,5” 1.44 Mb Mail all hints and/or advices to evilnet_genesis(a)yahoo.com or evilnet_genesis(a)hotmail.com. If nobody can’t help me then please give me some links or adresses, where I can find informations. Thank you! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 6 months

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What's a "computer console" selectric called?

by go＠ao.com

At 10:37 AM 5/28/99 -0500, you wrote: > <snip> > >I don't think the Model 735 Selectric could even handle EBCDIC directly. I >seem to recall the electrical interface was defined as tilt-and-rotate >signal names. My Selectric terminal certainly didn't do any translation by >itself from character-codes to solenoid signals, at least not from ASCII. I >had to do translation myself before sending to the printer. One way would >have been with hardware between the computer and the Selectric, eg- using an >eprom to translate each ASCII code into the correct combination of Selectric >tilt-and-rotate signals. My lazier way was to simply put a look-up table in >my driver code, to intercept each ASCII character enroute to the printer and >translate it into the appropriate pattern of solenoid signals first. >Imagine if you had to drive a dot-matrix print head with raw pin-driver >signals instead of the printer hardware figuring it out for you : same kind >of problem. In the CDC-3300 and 3500, most of the "logic" in the operator console, as I remember from the prints, was related to driving the console typewriter. The "API" for the typewriter was a BCD (6 bit) similar to the "native" code, but included (in an enhanced mode of operation selected by a console button) shift codes for selecting lower case/upper case and some extra type-ball codes. Normally the printer ran in UPPER CASE only with a few BCD codes stolen for carriage return, tab and backspace. No other functions were available in the normal mode of operation. I'd guess the logic for this took about 50 or so circuit modules (little 3x3 inch cards with a few transistors each - probably the equivalent to a single TTL IC in functionality. I don't recall if there was a diode rom, though. As for ASCII, the 3300 didn't know nothing about ASCII. However, if you had the BDP (Business Data Processor) as an option, you could do ASCII string operations (including some arithmetic, if I recall.) e.g. "strcpy" and "strcmp" were single instructions (after some setup code.) But the BDP was a dog and crashed a lot. It was only used by the Cobol compiler. > >Some vendors did indeed supply an interface that took ASCII from the >computer and sent the necessary tilt-and-rotate signals out to the >Selectric. > >Arlen >-- >Arlen Michaels amichael(a)nortelnetworks.com >Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada Gary

26 years, 6 months

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IBM Optical drives... A few questions

by mark_k＠iname.com

Hi, On 24 May 1999 Jason (the General) wrote: > I just got two IBM Optical drives, complete with drivers, controllers, > operator's manual, and service manual. Nice. I have a 3363 drive myself, but no controller or docs. How big are the manuals? > -Are there updated drivers for these drives? The ones that cane with it run > the driver as a DOS shell, which takes up a bunch of memory, and slows down > the entire computer (also won't work with Windows). There *are* a couple of 3363-related files on the IBM PC BBS, but I doubt they are significantly better than the drivers you have already. ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/options/3363driv.exe 142869 11-14-90 3363 Optical Disk Drive Opt Dsk V.1.02D ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/dos_util/3363.zip 281665 05-24-90 Original 3363 opt dsk ver 3.3 & lower. > - Does anyone have an ISA controller card for one of these drives? Both That's just what I'm looking for to see whether my 3363 actually works. Please let me know if you ever get hold of a spare. > - Sometimes, when I put in a disk, and try to read it, I get a "General > Failure" error. I take the disk out, put it back in, and it works. I think > there was a discussion about this before. Do I just need to clean the > disks? It wouldn't hurt. The lens inside the drive may also be dirty/dusty. It's not fun to disassemble the drive in order to expose the lens. As for cleaning the disks, try this: - wear plastic gloves to avoid getting oil from skin on disk surface - breath on disk surface and wipe radially with a folded-up kitchen towel - rotate the disk using finger through centre - do the same for the other surface. > -The drives that I have are 3363's, and the disks I have are 3363 200MB > Single Sided cartridges (IBM). Can I use other types of Optical disks, or > do I have to use the IBM 3363 ones? No, as far as I know the 3363 uses proprietary disks, you can only use the IBM ones. I bet the disks aren't available any more, though it wouldn't hurt to ask IBM about this. If they are available, you can bet they'll be expensive. > I've heard (I think it was on this list) that the 3363 is a WORM drive. > However, it allows you to delete files, but you don't get any added space > when the file is deleted (as if the file is still there). If the file is > actually gone, where did the empty space go, and is there any way to get it > back? Or is the file still there, and it being 'deleted' is it just an > optical illusion (no pun intended)? Basically, the file is just marked as deleted in the directory (which will always be at the end of the written part of the disk). It is still physically on the disk. Depending on how the driver software works, it may or may not be possible to access previously-deleted files. Once a disk is full, you can't write to it again. You can't reformat a disk. (In its operation you can think of the 3363 as similar to a CD-R drive using a UDF filesystem -- I think.) -- Mark

26 years, 6 months

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confidential info on old harddrives.

by mbg＠world.std.com

>> a PC. Another technique I have used when I didn't have immediate access >> to a wiping program (and *think* it is okay although not as good as >> doing a wipedisk) is to overwrite the offending file with another >> larger one, i.e. "copy [bigfile.ext] [offending file.ext]" and of >> course, then deleting the > >This may not work. On RT11 (I think) it certainly won't work. Right... >What some OS's do is create the new file in a suitable (contiguous) free >area on the disk and then mark the existing file as unused space. RT11 >does this because all files have to be contiguous on that OS. Good explanation... >Of course then the original (deleted) data is still on the disk. Yep... >Deleting files and then compressing an RT11 disk should be OK unless the >files are at the end of the disk. Compressing and then creating a large >file (large enough to overwrite the rest of the disk) should be safe. Unfortunately not... the only way to guarantee it is if there are LOTS of files on the disk, and the file deleted existed at a point in the directory less than the total size of all the following files. Too much to have to check before you are sure it is gone... Teh creation of the large file simple creates a directory entry... the actual disk surface defined by the new entry is not touched, so the data could still be there, hidden inside the larger file. Now if you did something to that file to overwrite it's contents, then it would be gone. It's been a while since I had to do this, and I had a program to do it for me anyway... but on a stock RT-11, you might be able to mount the file as a logical device, then FORMAT or INIT it, or do a COPY/DEV to it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 6 months

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HP1000F/2117F

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

In my previous post I mentioned the 13037 handling 7900A drives. It does not. 7900A drives use a 13210 controller. 7905/7906/7920 and I think 7925 use the 13037 controller. The 13037A and 13037B are different mainly in the number of drives it will support. The B model will support more (8 i think), the A only four as I recall... The 13037C will support HPIB drives like the 7906H as well as the 7906 "standard" variety. Sorry for the boo boo. Jay West

26 years, 6 months

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confidential info on old harddrives.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> I think you're talking about RT-11, Allison, but I may be wrong because >> the utility name you specify and the options you're talking about make >> no sense under RT-11. Are you maybe talking about some other OS? >> >> Under RT-11, it's not PIP, it's DUP, and the option is /G:n. >> The CCL equivalent is COPY/FILE/DEVICE/START:n. > >It is RT but brain fart on the app name it is dup. Admittedly, under RT-11 trying to figure out whether DUP or PIP is performing a particular COPY function is sometimes a bit fuzzy. (Let's see, COPY can also invoke FILEX, too!) >> Or, even easier, just do an FORMAT/VERIFY:ONLY. To be really thorough, >> do a FORMAT/VERIFY:ONLY/PATT:7777 to write 12 different patterns over >> the disk. > >Forgot that one. ;) It's very useful for wiping media. Of course, with some common types of media, FORMAT/VERIFY:ONLY doesn't wipe all the blocks: for example, with RX01's and RX02's, it leaves track 0 untouched. DEC OS's don't usually store data on track 0, but still... . And RL01's and RL02's might end up with replacement blocks being untouched by the operation, too. I know that the subject of this thread is how we never mess around with confidential data, but as a tool for finding things that you might not have otherwise thought of, Bob Schor's "SNOOP" program is quite effective at finding files that used to be on a disk, even identifying entire logical disks. It's on the RT SIG tape 11S113, available by anonymous ftp from: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus… in "schor2.dsk". Bob Schor also has a program called "CLEAR" whose only purpose is to blank out unused blocks on a RT-11 disk; this is in "schor1.dsk". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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Multibus-I Users ??

by edick＠idcomm.com

This board is definitely dedicated for disk I/O. It supports 8" and 5.25" floppy drives with a connector for each, and apparently two 5.25" hard disks as well. It uses a WD 1010 chip as did most of the early PC HDC's. The floppies are run with a WD 2797. I'd have concluded that this was NOT an Intel board because of the non-Intel FDC, but the one board identifier I can find says Intel. I've got another '186-based board which uses a '286 as a processor and a '186 as an I/O controller. This one has ethernet, serial I/O, lots of RAM, with "secded" and about 200 IC's on one side plus about a thousand passives and discretes on the other. It's from "Little Machines." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Multibus-I Users ?? >Dick, > > I don't have any catalogs that show the single board computers but I >found something in the '85 Intel product guide. It lists an iSBC 186/03 >that has an 80186 and that they classify as both a CPU card and Mass >Storage Controller. There is only a one line description for each so I >don't know if it has 8042 or not. Here's the info that the CPU section >gives: CPU = 80186, RAM = 0 to 64K EPROM or EEPROM = 0-512K, iSBX expansion >connectors = 2, MultiMode Expansion = iSBC 341, Operating System Software = >iRMX. Here's what the mass storage section says: No. of boards = 1, >Interface Supported ="SCSI-single host environment (transfer rate 1.2 >Mbyte/sec asynchrous)", No. of drives supported = "single targer >environment", S/W Support = RMX 86. There is also a chart showing the year >of introduction and relatve performance. It was introduced in 1984 and it's >performace is a 5. > > Joe > >At 07:30 AM 5/28/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Are there any users of the old Multibus-I out there? I'm having difficulty >>identifying a board that is so "busy" that there was no room on which to put >>an identifier in the silkscreen. It's a FD/HD controller with a '186 and an >>8042 on it. Sound familiar? >> >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 11:16 PM >>Subject: Re: Re[4]: Bringing up a CPM >> >> >>>Yes, '81 was pretty late . . . CP/M-86 came out then, as did PC-DOS. >>>Within a few years, nobody wanted to be limited by the same systems they >>>coveted only a few years earlier. By '81, the Apple][ could be equipped >>>with a Z80 board, a "real" FDC (Sorrento Valley Associates ?) an 80x24 >>>display, and a hard disk if you could afford it. I recently sold the >>>prototype of the original Apple HDC I made up in the spring of '81 together >>>with my first ST-506. >>> >>>Those were the days . . . <sigh> >>> >>>Today I can still run CP/M but at an effective clock rate of 83MHz on my >>>notebook . . . designing hardware involves thousands of lines of HDL, weeks >>>in front of a simulation, and when it's done, I can't even hook up an >>>instrument small and fast enough to inspect it because even our government >>>can't afford one. One has to design circuits with 25% overhead so they can >>>be inspected. Oh, well . . . >>> >>>Dick >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> >>>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >>><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>>Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 8:54 PM >>>Subject: Re: Re[4]: Bringing up a CPM >>> >>> >>>><If you're writing your own, it might be well to keep in mind that the >>BIOS >>>><used in several late-generation CP/M systems used device drivers which >>>coul >>>> >>>>It was late generation in 1981! I started doing it then. CPM had a >>formal >>>>product called CP/M+ (CP/M3.0) to extend that idea. >>>> >>>><California Computer Systems (CCS) had a pretty nice boot process in which >>>><they loaded a skeletal BIOS in a 32K CP/M, since 32K was the smallest >>>memor >>>><in which they claimed they could run. It wrote that to the boot blocks, >>>> >>>>Actualy it was 20k for cpm2.2, as it was distributed as a 20k system that >>>>you would run movcpm on to get the xxK version you wanted. >>>> >>>><then, under the control of that skeletal system, they loaded a >>"full-size" >>>><(you get to define that!) CP/M and transfer control to it. It's pretty >>>><solid and makes the preparation of a bootable disk a straightforward if >>no >>>><a quick process. >>>> >>>>Yes and they were doing it a long time back, Compupro too. Kaypro was one >>>>of the few "boxed" system that had the rom mapped to get a large TPA. >>>> >>>><IIRC, the XEROX 820 used a swapped-in BIOS which lived in PROM and was >>>><mapped into the TPA during file transfers, or something on that order. >>If >>>> >>>>Classic. >>>> >>>><your machine can handle that, it saves on BIOS size, especially tables, >>>etc >>>><and, generally speaking, if the READ operations from the TPA are from >>>><temprorarily mapped-in PROMs, you can overwrite the TPA in the event >>you'r >>>><loading overlays, with complete impunity. That way your >>>blocking/deblockin >>>><buffer space can still reside in high memory. >>>> >>>>An IMSAI can neither handle that nor not handle that. The basic design >>>>had no rom! To do that you need a prom card with a little bit of hardware >>>>to map it with an IO port. >>>> >>>>The key here is to get a working system in whatever space... Why, it's the >>>>development platfrom for itself. Once you have it running and can poke >>and >>>>understand it the improvements will come. >>>> >>>>Allison >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >

26 years, 6 months

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Whats a MassPar?

by mikeford＠netwiz.net

Two large chassis (size of old fridge) rolled into the salvage yard near me, labeled MassPar and one of them has 8 big, I think, MFM drives in it. Anybody know what this stuff is, or have interest in it? Its cheap, and looks intact and very good shape.

26 years, 6 months

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Identify this MultiBus card

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Another MultiBus card that was found in the trash. It was made by "MicroBar Systems Inc" and is marked "Master/Slave M24 I16 D16 V02NBV". It has a small (~2 x 4") daughter board attached to it that says Intel and contains a 82C55A-2. Most of the ICs seem to be dated 1985. Joe

26 years, 6 months

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confidential info on old harddrives.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> file as a logical device, then FORMAT or INIT it, or do a COPY/DEV >> to it... > >Use PIP to do a absolute block addressed copy. I think it's :n or :I >and your can then move known clear blocks to anywhere on the disk. I think you're talking about RT-11, Allison, but I may be wrong because the utility name you specify and the options you're talking about make no sense under RT-11. Are you maybe talking about some other OS? Under RT-11, it's not PIP, it's DUP, and the option is /G:n. The CCL equivalent is COPY/FILE/DEVICE/START:n. >If you have to do that alot under RT-11 make up a disk with files that >contain nothingg (fresh disk) but use the entire surface and then image >copy it. Or, even easier, just do an FORMAT/VERIFY:ONLY. To be really thorough, do a FORMAT/VERIFY:ONLY/PATT:7777 to write 12 different patterns over the disk. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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Multibus-I Users ??

by edick＠idcomm.com

Are there any users of the old Multibus-I out there? I'm having difficulty identifying a board that is so "busy" that there was no room on which to put an identifier in the silkscreen. It's a FD/HD controller with a '186 and an 8042 on it. Sound familiar? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Re[4]: Bringing up a CPM >Yes, '81 was pretty late . . . CP/M-86 came out then, as did PC-DOS. >Within a few years, nobody wanted to be limited by the same systems they >coveted only a few years earlier. By '81, the Apple][ could be equipped >with a Z80 board, a "real" FDC (Sorrento Valley Associates ?) an 80x24 >display, and a hard disk if you could afford it. I recently sold the >prototype of the original Apple HDC I made up in the spring of '81 together >with my first ST-506. > >Those were the days . . . <sigh> > >Today I can still run CP/M but at an effective clock rate of 83MHz on my >notebook . . . designing hardware involves thousands of lines of HDL, weeks >in front of a simulation, and when it's done, I can't even hook up an >instrument small and fast enough to inspect it because even our government >can't afford one. One has to design circuits with 25% overhead so they can >be inspected. Oh, well . . . > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 8:54 PM >Subject: Re: Re[4]: Bringing up a CPM > > >><If you're writing your own, it might be well to keep in mind that the BIOS >><used in several late-generation CP/M systems used device drivers which >coul >> >>It was late generation in 1981! I started doing it then. CPM had a formal >>product called CP/M+ (CP/M3.0) to extend that idea. >> >><California Computer Systems (CCS) had a pretty nice boot process in which >><they loaded a skeletal BIOS in a 32K CP/M, since 32K was the smallest >memor >><in which they claimed they could run. It wrote that to the boot blocks, >> >>Actualy it was 20k for cpm2.2, as it was distributed as a 20k system that >>you would run movcpm on to get the xxK version you wanted. >> >><then, under the control of that skeletal system, they loaded a "full-size" >><(you get to define that!) CP/M and transfer control to it. It's pretty >><solid and makes the preparation of a bootable disk a straightforward if no >><a quick process. >> >>Yes and they were doing it a long time back, Compupro too. Kaypro was one >>of the few "boxed" system that had the rom mapped to get a large TPA. >> >><IIRC, the XEROX 820 used a swapped-in BIOS which lived in PROM and was >><mapped into the TPA during file transfers, or something on that order. If >> >>Classic. >> >><your machine can handle that, it saves on BIOS size, especially tables, >etc >><and, generally speaking, if the READ operations from the TPA are from >><temprorarily mapped-in PROMs, you can overwrite the TPA in the event you'r >><loading overlays, with complete impunity. That way your >blocking/deblockin >><buffer space can still reside in high memory. >> >>An IMSAI can neither handle that nor not handle that. The basic design >>had no rom! To do that you need a prom card with a little bit of hardware >>to map it with an IO port. >> >>The key here is to get a working system in whatever space... Why, it's the >>development platfrom for itself. Once you have it running and can poke and >>understand it the improvements will come. >> >>Allison >> >> >

26 years, 6 months

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"default" DHV11 CSR?

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi Chuck, Check the config file first, if your kernel looks for a DHV11 anyway ... cheers, emanuel -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)freegate.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 10:58 AM Subject: "default" DHV11 CSR? >Does anyone know the "default" CSR for the first DHV-11? (8x serial mux) >I'm trying to get one recognized in my uVax III with NetBSD and it's not >seeing it. >--Chuck > > >

26 years, 6 months

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Intel MultiBus 8086/05A card

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I found this card in a pile of scrap boards. The IC on the top right corner is broken. Can anyone tell me what it's supposed to be? It's marked U 16 and is a 16 pin SSI DIP. Does anyone have any docs for this card? Joe

26 years, 6 months

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confidential info on old harddrives.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I'm sure that lawyers are the worst because they know that if you did <anything with the information or even made it public knowledge that you ha <the information they would successfully sue you for everything you own. It's a foolish practice. Running Norton's diskwipe is a good thing but at least delete and better yet do a format. They are at risk for malpractice for mishandeling possibly confifential info. Their risk is much greater due to that confidence. Generally, wipe them. If the disk has a possibly useful OS then clean it. Whatever you do respect privacy! I work as a MIS/Sysadmin, in short that means everything in the company can or is seen by me. That also means I have a responsability to keep it to myself where it is known. Since I've been doing this for quite a while and often so I have usable disks! MY standard thing is to let the former owners if known that I will be trying to use the disk and if there is any data found it will be destroyed or at their option copied if possible and returned to them. More often than not the drive is LLF'd as the controller I'm using doesn't like their format. If I plan to pass on the disks I will try to wipe them first or at least make sure nothing grossly dangerous to the former owner is on them. That is assuming I have hardware to do that. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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VAXstation 3100 questions

by paul＠paul.dragontear.org

Hello, I recently acquired a VAXstation 3100 from a local pharmaceutical company that was trashing it. Being a sucker for old computers, and having always been intrigued by VMS, i've messed around with it. I know incredibly little about VMS, and have never encountered it before yesterday, but what I have been able to figure out is that it's running VAX/VMS 5.4, it has 16Mb of RAM, (2) 212Mb hard drives, and an RX23 disk drive. Does anyone have any references or links that would be helpful in setting this thing up? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. -paul -- paul(a)paul.dragontear.org [a paradigm of a paramount failure]

26 years, 6 months

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Info needed: HP1000F/2117F

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

So... having found some time to have a look at these beasties, I find that overall I'm still as puzzled as before. And one of these cases where documentation can be TOO old... My one vintage HP catalog predates these CPUs by a couple of years. The catalog only lists the HP2116. I wandered through the card cages in both machines (fairly diverse configurations) and the designations look like this: Machine 1 Front card cage Rear card cage DCPC 13037 Intf Memory Protect Grd True In/Out M.E.M. Grd True In/Out 64k HSM 12747H Microcircuit 64k HSM 12747H BACI 12966A 64k HSM 12747H 7970 Mag Tape 2 64k HSM 12747H 7970 Mag Tape 1 64k HSM 12747H Line Printer 64k HSM 12747H Time Base Gen Mem Contr 2102E F.E.M. Main Logic? (under chassis) Machine 2 Front card cage Rear card cage DCPC Jumper Memory Protect I/O Buffer M.E.M. 8 Chan Mux Standard Memories Bus I/O (256k memory) 1 Standard Memories 2 (256k memory) Disc Intf 2 256kw 12749H Disc Intf 1 256kw 12749H 3 Mem Contr 2102E 4 BACI 12966H 12821A Disc Intf Time Base Gen F.E.M. Main Logic? (under chassis) (pictures are on the MiniComputers page at The Computer Garage) Some of the cards are fairly obvious as to function, (memory, time base gen, etc...) but some of the designations are a bit vague, and in any case I still need to find docs on this critter and the cards. The cards designated as 1,2,3, & 4 are all identical, and look like multi-channel serial I/O cards. The only obvious designation are etched on the card and read 5180-1953 and 668298. They are HP cards... Any information on these critters would be greatly appreciated! After the usual pre-launch checks, all of the (apparently) optional cards were removed from the card cages and the units were powered up. Curiously, they both act identically in that they seem to have some front panel function, but the CPUs seem to be hung pretty hard. No odd sounds or loss of magic smoke, so an initial suspicion is a configuration error common to both units. The card cages only have specific card notations on a couple of slots, so there is the obvious question of proper card positioning. (no idea if the cages are a parallel bus or not) Help??? Thanks; -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

26 years, 6 months

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Bringing up a CPM

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<If you're writing your own, it might be well to keep in mind that the BIOS <used in several late-generation CP/M systems used device drivers which coul It was late generation in 1981! I started doing it then. CPM had a formal product called CP/M+ (CP/M3.0) to extend that idea. <California Computer Systems (CCS) had a pretty nice boot process in which <they loaded a skeletal BIOS in a 32K CP/M, since 32K was the smallest memor <in which they claimed they could run. It wrote that to the boot blocks, Actualy it was 20k for cpm2.2, as it was distributed as a 20k system that you would run movcpm on to get the xxK version you wanted. <then, under the control of that skeletal system, they loaded a "full-size" <(you get to define that!) CP/M and transfer control to it. It's pretty <solid and makes the preparation of a bootable disk a straightforward if no <a quick process. Yes and they were doing it a long time back, Compupro too. Kaypro was one of the few "boxed" system that had the rom mapped to get a large TPA. <IIRC, the XEROX 820 used a swapped-in BIOS which lived in PROM and was <mapped into the TPA during file transfers, or something on that order. If Classic. <your machine can handle that, it saves on BIOS size, especially tables, etc <and, generally speaking, if the READ operations from the TPA are from <temprorarily mapped-in PROMs, you can overwrite the TPA in the event you'r <loading overlays, with complete impunity. That way your blocking/deblockin <buffer space can still reside in high memory. An IMSAI can neither handle that nor not handle that. The basic design had no rom! To do that you need a prom card with a little bit of hardware to map it with an IO port. The key here is to get a working system in whatever space... Why, it's the development platfrom for itself. Once you have it running and can poke and understand it the improvements will come. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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0
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Bringing up a CPM

by edick＠idcomm.com

If you're writing your own, it might be well to keep in mind that the BIOS used in several late-generation CP/M systems used device drivers which could be swapped in and out of PROM. This seems like a decent idea in view of the way in which some compilers handled their TPA usage. You could end up with a pretty big BIOS if you make it any sort of fancy at all , and that could mean you can't run some compiled programs. California Computer Systems (CCS) had a pretty nice boot process in which they loaded a skeletal BIOS in a 32K CP/M, since 32K was the smallest memory in which they claimed they could run. It wrote that to the boot blocks, then, under the control of that skeletal system, they loaded a "full-size" (you get to define that!) CP/M and transfer control to it. It's pretty solid and makes the preparation of a bootable disk a straightforward if not a quick process. IIRC, the XEROX 820 used a swapped-in BIOS which lived in PROM and was mapped into the TPA during file transfers, or something on that order. If your machine can handle that, it saves on BIOS size, especially tables, etc, and, generally speaking, if the READ operations from the TPA are from temprorarily mapped-in PROMs, you can overwrite the TPA in the event you're loading overlays, with complete impunity. That way your blocking/deblocking buffer space can still reside in high memory. Just a thought . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 3:25 PM Subject: Re[4]: Bringing up a CPM >allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: >> > I guess the issue is that the additional space is the BIOS and >> > since I'll be replacing this with my own BIOS, and I write efficient >> > code, I don't have to worry about it until I run out of space? >> > Dwight >> > >> ???HUH??? Figure this if your running a SSSD 8" to be compatable with >> media out there the system has two tracks to use for the CCP, BDOS and >> bios. Thats 52 sectors! >> >> The first sector DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THE BOOT. > >Hi > It does on my system unless I toggle in a loader or have >EPROMs to do it. I'd like to not have any EPROMs if I don't >need it. The controller automatically loads track 0 sector 1. >I start executing at address zero and it boot loads the >CPM system. The boot loader then jumps to the start of >the CPM and it over writes info at address zero with what >it requires there. As far as I know, I am following the examples >for a non-MDS800 type system and following exactly what is >shown on 6-14/6-15 of the CPM manual that I got from the >unofficial site. The mapping shows that the first sector >is a cold start loader and the CPM ( CCP ) part doesn't start until >the second sector. > It would seem that there was additional BOIS info loaded that >didn't fit into the 51 sectors. It sounds like I can ignore >this because I'll be replacing it anyway. > Let me say, no EPROM's, boots from disk. >Dwight >

26 years, 6 months

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