- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Allison wrote: <> I'd start with a 32bit PDP-8 (just add 20 more bits on the right side). <and in another posting: <> Me I'd do a stretch-8 for fun. though yours sounds interesting too. < <A Stretch-8 would require too much time spent on hacking -8 software for m <taste. Why not just build the equivalent of one of the DEC 18-bit family <members (PDP-4, -7, -9, or -15), since the PDP-5 and -8 are basically a 12- <version of the PDP-4. Then your project is at least compatible with <something, and can run some existing software (operating system, macro <assembler, Fortran). Several reasons. Don't know the 18 bit machines at all. I would want a machine that would fit in nx4 or nx8 format parts. I'd want a really simple instruction set as that simplifies the hardware ruling out the 10, 11 and vax. So streatching an 8 is it. Now a stretch-8 would have software as the bits added would only impact the address field. Makeing the top 5 bits and the bottom 7 behave as the normal 8 would make code port fairly reasonable. I've always found the 8 limiting in only one way, address space. Basically the Nova is a similar idea stopping at 16 bits. Allison

26 years, 3 months

2
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WD1002-05 Doc

by edick＠idcomm.com

A couple of weeks have elapsed since someone on this list asked for documents on the WD1002-05 Winchester/Floppy controller board. I have scanned my "preliminary" document and can make it available via email. It's "cooking" into final form on another machine right now, but I'd expect that since there are 44 pages the picture (TIF file) will be something just under 1 MB/page. This is a really big file and I may reduce its volume by converting it to compressed PCX format. If you want this document, please let me know how you'd like to have it formatted. Dick

26 years, 3 months

1
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FPGAs and PDP-11's

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

><A Stretch-8 would require too much time spent on hacking -8 software for m ><taste. Why not just build the equivalent of one of the DEC 18-bit family ><members > > Several reasons. [SNIP] I would want a > machine that would fit in nx4 or nx8 format parts. Bear in mind that some really interesting parts useful for this sort of thing (high-speed synchronous SRAMs, for example) come in x9 flavors to support parity on x8 byte machines. Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

26 years, 3 months

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Fw: WANTED: 88110 docs -- specifically MC88110UM/AD

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

Hi all, If anyone can help this guy, please contact him direct, I just fwd the msg >from the ng he posted in.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Briggs <briggs(a)ninthwonder.com> Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation,comp.sys.m88k,misc.forsale.computers.othe r.misc Sent: Sunday, 29 August 1999 9:05 Subject: WANTED: 88110 docs -- specifically MC88110UM/AD > I'm starting work on free OS port for Data General 88k systems. I'd > like to locate the user's manual for the Motorola 88110 processor. A > kind person has loaned me one for a while, but I'd really like to have > my own copy to use/mark up/whatever. It's no longer in print and not > available from the Motorola Literature Center. I already have the 88100 > and 88200 docs. > > If you have this book or know someone who might have this book getting > dusty on some shelf somewhere, please contact me. I'm willing to pay > something for shipping and something for someone's trouble in digging it > up and mailing it. > > Thanks, > -allen >

26 years, 3 months

1
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tek4015

by jritorto＠nut.net

does anyone have a pointer to programming information for this beast? I want a nice Mandlebrot set on my tek to amuse my guests. :-) jake

26 years, 3 months

1
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PDP era and a question

by edick＠idcomm.com

Whether this is correct or not, the real problem lies in that the data is available in the clear by virtue of the fact the unmodified data travels into the FPGA in a predfined way, allowing a simple and direct copying process to be set up. No reverse engineering is needed, just a rote copy. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 1:05 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> > Anyway, the real point is that certainly for Xilinx FPGAs, if you buy the >> > official tools you get a program to 'reverse engineer' a bitstream back >> > to the CLB map. Converting that to a schematic is still a non-trivial task...

26 years, 3 months

1
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PDP era and a question

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see my embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 11:27 AM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> >Please note, I am not saying that the FPGA manufacturers should support >> >all the possible choices of machine and OS. Just that I wish that _one_ >> >of them would provide enough information for me to support them myself. >> > >> The reality of the matter is that these device vendors, of whom I would >> assume it could be said they're in a good position to make such a >> determination, have decided that it's worth their effort to invest the >> effort and money in creating support tools for the PC running Windows 9x and >> not the PDP-8S or whatever, running something else. This is not my >> preference either, since I like and trust DOS much more than the WINDOWS >> varieties, but then, they no longer put out tools for the MAC either, not >> that I'd use one even if they were free. >> >> > >You are missing the point. I am not asking that the FPGA companies >produce/support tools that run on <whatever>. I am simply asking that >they allow me to create said tools. > Unfortunately, your desire to do that is in the toiled right along with the manufacturers' competitors' wish to learn what changes were made in order to field the last batch of "enhancements." Their perception is that too much detail about the parts' configuration details is too much detail about the inner workings of their product. It's their intellectual property, so if they wish to be able to protect it in court when someone steals is by whatever means, they have to show they've applied due dilligence throughout their operation to protect that information. If they don't, they run the risk that a competitor's lawyer will say, in court, that this information was not valuable enough to protect in the one instance, so why are they upset that someone acquired it through other means. It's a valid point. That's why many vendors don't give "free" copies of software anymore. The courts have found that if your product is valuable enough to prosecute someone for "stealing" it, then it should be so valuable that it can't be given away. Now, I'm not sure I buy all that, but that's the direction things seem to run. > >Think of microcontrollers for the moment, particularly the Microchip PIC. >I use that chip a lot. Now, I can either use the (free) Microchip >assembler/simulator that runs on PCs, or I can take the databook off the >shelf and write my own assembler/simulator. The necessary information is >given to do that. > >There is another reason I want this information. I want to create >self-modifying circuits, reconfigurable CPUs, etc. And I can't do that if >I am forced to use the manufacturers tools for every change in configuration. > > Not all vendors will give you all the necessary information to do that. Most makers of microcontrollers will, though. >Most (all?) of the existing work on such systems was done using the >now-discontinued Xilinx XC6200 series. Those were fully documented (I >have the data sheets). > > >[...] > >> >There was a _supplied_ program that would take a configuration bitstream >> >and turn it back into a CLB + interconnect map - essentially a >> >disassembler. Of course turning that map into a schematic was a lot of >> >work, but the 'secret' part was there. >> > >> >But no way would they tell us what any of the bits in the configuration >> >file actually meant. >> > >> >I am told they might have supplied some documentation under an NDA, but >> >that's no use for open-source software, of course. >> > >> Well, it's not likely that you'll encounter much cooperation in your effort >> to convince the world to share its secrets. These days, when patents are of > >Hmm... Since the architecture of the FPGA is already pretty well >described in the databook, releasing exactly how the bitstream configures >the chips is not giving that much more away. > >[...] > >> I'm surprised that there was a commonly available scf2xnf (or whatever it >> was called) translator, since that essentially reverse engineered your >> product for your competitor, but it would surprise me even more for the >> vendor to provide you the ability to see how they've enhanced their parts if >> that's reflected in their configuration files. > >The Xilinx tools I used (admittedly a few years old now) had a program >that let you edit the CLB/interconnect map yourself. And a program to >turn a bitmap into whatever file (xnf?) that this program would work with. > >Of course reverse-engineering a schematic from the CLB map is at least as >hard as reverse-engineering a large board of TTL chips. So it's not that >much help in copying a competitor's design. > Back in the early '80's I found that dirt simple. I can remember many a trade-show where my partner would, after we had examined a new product, buy me a cup of coffee and hand me a couple of extra napkins so I could draw a schematic of what I perceived the "new" product to be. Knowing how things worked and what the various TTL parts did made that into child's play. As a result, our products were almost always "better" than theirs. > >Any changes in the internals of the part (as it appears to the user - say >extra interconnect resources) were clearly visible using these tools and >were (IIRC) documented in the data sheets. As I said above, the data >sheets I have are reasonably details on what the chip contains and how it >works, but don't give the information to actually use it. > > >> Nevertheless, perhaps you need to back away from your devotion to the >> absolute notion of fully open source in favor of a really efficient, >> particularly cost-efficient, PDP whatever you want to build. If you need to > >I don't particularly want to make a PDP-anything. And if I did, I >certainly wouldn't use an FPGA... > You'd only do that if you intended to make your version better, faster, and less costly, along with less trouble to repair. > >If I use FPGAs (myself, for one of my own designs), I would want to >exploit the fact that they are reconfigurable parts. In other words, to >change bits of the circuit as the machine is running. Not just use them >as a replacement for a lot of TTL. > >> have sources in order to fix what you consider to be an annoying bug in the >> software tools with which the FPGA is to be devised, I'd point out that > >Hmmm... I've spent far too many long nights as a result of bugs in FPGA >tools. I'd much rather be able to see what they're doing to my circuit. > Well, if you're getting paid on time and materials, then it's someone else's worry, isn't it, if they specify a device with buggy software support. If you have your way, you specify a product which doesn't have those problems. > >> noone else is able to fix it either. Sometimes it's necessary to live with >> those "bugs" which annoy you most. > >Ah... But I have this ingrained objection to 'living with bugs'. If I >have a product (hardware, software, whatever) that doesn't work as I want >it to (or doesn't work correctly), I modify it. Period. > Perhaps that has more than anything else to do with your inability to find work. If you're so prone to get caught up in "fixing" what others don't even perceive to be broken, that you can't work with those tools, perhaps it's your outlook that needs fixing. In any case, perhaps a look in your own closet is warranted. I know I wouldn't hire someone who was not at all concerned about protecting intellectual property I had bought and paid for and who felt that it was more important to make a board easy to clone that it was to make it lower in cost and more reliable. Don't you think your outlook has some questionable perspective issues? If you're an engineer, your job is to solve the problems which confront you today with the resources at your disposal today, and not to lament the fact that someone built the XYZ round instead of square so it would stack neatly, and not to dream up technology which isn't yet commercially viable. Today's software isn't bug free, nor is it "open" enough to suit you. That is what's on the table, though. Refusing to use current hardware/software because it's not "open" enough isn't going to put a roast on the dinner table next Sunday, either. Maybe your talents would be better spent figuring out a better way to do what "the boss" wants, rather than trying to figure out a better thing to do. It's pretty apparent you have a good understanding of how the things work. It's also apparent you're capable of making the necessary leap. If you figure out a better way to do something on one of those computers you don't want with that OS you dislike, and sell it to .001% of all the users out there, you'll be wealthy beyond your wildest dreams. (You'll also develop different priorities where intellectual property is concerned!) OTOH, if you make an improvement to all the PDP-anythings still in use out there and sell it for 10x what it's worth, you'll still be as poor as ever. (well . . . maybe not poor . . . but the tax collector still won't remember you by name.) I haven't seen an FPGA (yet) which has "soft" configuration which can be changed on the fly. I think Triscend (www.triscend.com) may be heading in that direction, together with their 805x core. I've read a little about it, but as far as I know, the way to change it is to reset and reload the part, perhaps from a different configuration file. One thing I find shameful about the FPGA makers is that they have all this secrecy about one aspect or another of THEIR intellectual property as pertains to their parts, yet they do absolutely nothing to protect YOUR IP as it sits in a completely visible medium. If they would at least provide a feature to allow you to flash in a persistent encryption circuit not detectable from the outside but permanently associated with a given design . . . >-tony >

26 years, 3 months

5
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PDP era and a question

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<PDP-11 is certainly doable in the 4010 part, but I don't know if I could d <it and the 11/70 MMU or if I'd end up using two parts. These parts are Definately two or more to do 11/70 or the J11 (similar) as the MMU is a lot of registers (memory cells) and the CPU is not short on them either. <"slow" (50Mhz) which is a hell of a lot faster than a lot of -11's :-) In reality when you get the end of the design you find the interconnect delays internal to the chips will have you far slower. The J11 run with something like a 16 mhz clock for the early parts and the crop in the 11/93 I'd guess are closer or faster than 30mhz. <> What architecture? Microcoded or gates? Microcode requires an <> assembler, but might be quicker in the long run. < <Intel sued several people over the alleged use of Pentium microcode, <legally gates would probably be safer, also microcode == memory and memory <eats gates rapidly (even though the Xilinx have some cool features to avoi <that) and intel lost to nec as V20 microcode was actually wider! Microcode would be in external EEproms or some such to get the wide words needed to make the cpu fast. <Sounds like the definition of a hobby to me. :-) I'm going to do a PDP-8 o <my evaluation board, and after that will look at helping out on a PDP-11. Better place to start. The PDP-8 is not register intensive nor does it have many states that make sequential logic complex. The -8 has three 12 bit register and may be a temp (PC, MQ, ACC and MA(a temp)). The base PDP-11 (11/20, LSI11, T11) has 8 16bit registers plus flags and maybe temps for internal use. See why PDP-11 is more complex for FPGA? The base 11 has nearly 18bytes of ram never minding other flipflops needed! Hope this makes it more sense of the scale of complexity. The PDP-11 is the most CISC of the 16bitters and is only exceeded by the VAX. Allison

26 years, 3 months

5
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Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> writes: ><> Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters ><> for saleable souveniers? ><> ><> Allison ><> >< ><I have a hazy recollection of that event, but I don't think(?) it is >the ><same one. This one exists in conjunction with Coleman College - >computer ><training. >< > >I'm happy to hear that. TCM does not rank high on my list of, things to >do to historical items. Preserving history, understanding it is very >difficult and an active wholsale destruction of any machine for money >is the same as tomb raiding for gold. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's pretty much what my local scrapper does . . . . Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

8
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FS cheeep-Lotus Aproach 2.0 for Windows, new in box

by rhblake＠bigfoot.com

Still have a sealed copy of Lotus Appraoch 2.0 Database for Windows....and no use for it. It says it has both 5.25" (1.2mb) and 3.5" (1.44mb) disks. It states 286 or higher, Win 3.0 or higher, hard disk, EGA or better video, mouse, 2 mb RAM minimum.. It says it's compatible with files from dBase III & IV, Paradox, FoxPro, Oracle SQL 6.0 and SQL Server databases in native format.. It also states that's it's network compatible with Noverll Netware and Netware Lite, MS Lan Manager, Banyan VINES and LANtastic networks. Allows grpaihics imports in BMP, TIFF, PCX, WMF and EPS. $5.00 plus whatever the postage would be and it's yours. Drop me a direct note if interested.

26 years, 3 months

1
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Free DMF32 Dist Panel

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

Cleaning up the piles of stuff here, and decided to find something a good home rather than tossing it into another pile: Free to the first to offer to pay shipping ($3.20 USPS priority mail inside the US): A genuine DMF32 distribution panel, DEC part number 70-18754. Perfect for anyone with a DMF32 but without the cab kit! No cables included. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

1
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FPGAs and PDP-11's

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm not nearly so concerned about the implementation details. Frankly, the FPGA vendors are all heading off in the wrong direction for implementation of those "old" processors and their peripherals. They give you 10 times I/O's you need and only half the routing resources. I'd much rather look at a plcc44 housing a 2500 CLB FPGA rather than a 500-pin FPGA housing what they claim is a 400K-gate equivalent. What's more, I'd rather see a 2 million gate "sea" of gates than a few dozen CLB's or macrocells, providet there were yards and yards of interconnection resources. That's not where they're headed. They want you to buy 32 ram bits with which to build a single nand gate. The PLD vendors aren't any better . . . their devices have always had too many inputs and not nearly enough buried resources for my taste. If I have to "do something" to a couple of inputs based on what a couple more do, then they work OK, but if I have to do a bunch of well-defined things based on what one input does, and generate one output based on a complex sequence of processes, always the same, however, then I have no choice other than the Scenix SX, which is a microcontroller. PALs and PLDs have never had the right input/output pin ratio, nor have they often had sufficient internally buried registers. Crying about it won't fix it, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans B Pufal <hansp(a)digiweb.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 12:13 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I've taken a good hard look at implementing the 6500 core in XILINX and find >> that performance, which is VERY much of interest, is impacted most by ALU >> design. > >No-one has mentioned the free IP project at <http://www.free-ip.com/> >which has a VHLD implementation of a 6502 now available. No idea of >performance on this, I have just begun to dabble in this area. > >I too bemoan the fact the full configuration specs are not availble for >the FPGA's. >A few years ago I was working for a company that had a Xilinx part >monitoring a processor bus. We wanted to dynamically reconfigure the >FPGA so that we could change the bus pattern it triggered on - no joy >though geting the necessary info. > >I see implementing old processors in FPGA's as a way of preserving those >the design of those processors. Yes, we would all prefer to have an >original, but practically speaking that is not possible. > >For some uses, a modern re-implementation or an emulator is better than >nothing at all. > >Regards > >_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- >Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue ><mailto:hansp@digiweb.com> <http://digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc>

26 years, 3 months

2
1
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PDP era and a question

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) <vaxman(a)oldy.crwolff.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 3:00 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question > > > >On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> please see my embedded comments below. >> >> Dick >> <snip> >I saw a blurb about that several years ago in one of the trade rags. >Basically, the part was sector based (not their name for it). You could >reload a portion of the FPGA while the rest continued to operate. The >example that was given was loading different image processing algorithms >into the chip while the rest of the chip continued to pull in and output >the video stream. > I've see writing, but not authoritative writing about this. I don't consider marketing departments capable of authoritative writing, by the way. > >> One thing I find shameful about the FPGA makers is that they have all this >> secrecy about one aspect or another of THEIR intellectual property as >> pertains to their parts, yet they do absolutely nothing to protect YOUR IP >> as it sits in a completely visible medium. If they would at least provide a >> feature to allow you to flash in a persistent encryption circuit not >> detectable from the outside but permanently associated with a given design . >> . . > >Publishing what each bit in the bitstream did would get your competitor >half way to having a schematic of your design. > >clint > That's not as much a problem as allowing him to dupe your board (Plenty of PC market boards have just the one major ASIC and a large and price-sensitive market which a $1 lower price with take over.) and the contents of your configuration EEPROM, then buy the same part from XILINX or whoever supplies your parts, build them down the very street in TAIPEI from where yours are made, then sell your work to the public, documentation and all, leaving you with a market saturated with counterfeits of your product and a HUGE support burden to pay for with your non-profits. > Dick

26 years, 3 months

1
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HELP for ML command

by hiyama＠abit.co.jp

Hi Dear Please advice for Mailing list usage to change the mail address. Thank you very much. Takeo

26 years, 3 months

3
3
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FPGAs and PDP-11's

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to memory operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one register at a time. Additionally, if one chooses to implement it in the way the original manufacturers did, the ALU serves, not only to operate the instruction set, but also is used to operate on the PC and SP as well. This save LOTS of resources in the construction of the associated counter chains. That's not to say it's easy to implement this architecture in an efficient way, though. You have to look at another aspect of FPGA's however, and that's the combined effect of routing and resource utilization. The ALTERA folks may claim to have implemented this architecture in only 7% of the resources of the part, but at what cost? In general, a substantial portion of the resources available in a device, in terms, for example, of raw gate count, is lost in the implmentation of a design. In each logic cell or logic block, there are resources which the marketing department proudly counts and advertises, yet which, once a part of the logic cell is used, are gone forever and unusable. The routing is another factor which plays a big role in the way FPGA's work out. Allocating a given routing resource in a certain way can effectively render other logic resources unusable because of lack of interconnection resources with which to do that. Consequently, routing in a manner essential to a given level of performance for some of the device resources can render other resources unreachable for any practical purpose. The marketing guys don't consider this when publishing their full-color glossy brocheures, though. If they go to work, they'll say, well, this nand gate is only 6% of a CLB, even though the entire CLB is used up, say, and that pipeline register used to synchronize these functions is only 12% . . . when in reality as much as 50% of the array may be consumed by such a design, and the remaining "half" may be very difficult to utilize beyond 15%. I've taken a good hard look at implementing the 6500 core in XILINX and find that performance, which is VERY much of interest, is impacted most by ALU design. Now, the Virtex CLB allows a single CLB to function as a two-bit full-adder. If one wants the best performance/resource allocation tradeoff, I'm nearly convinced that the best way might be to design it with a 2-bit ALU slice because the resource consumption is small yet the delay for a 2-bit registered implementation of an 8-bit ALU would be just as fast as an 8-bit implementation because of the carry delay from stage to stage. It appears to me that the rate-determining step, then, becomes how fast a clock can be routed through the array. In the case of the 2-bit slice, it doesn't have to propagate very far to get the job done. With an 8-bit implementation, there's a lot more routing delay, and at least four times as much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the ALU is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this leads?) Dick -----Original Message----- From: Alex Knight <aknight(a)mindspring.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 9:58 AM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >Hi, > >Another data point w.r.t. implementing microprocessors in FPGAs >involves the 6502: When Altera was initially rolling out their 10K >family of FPGAs, one of their marketing charts shows how they >built a 6502 processor inside a 10K50 device using only 7% of >the FPGA resources. > >Regards, >Alex Knight >Calculator History & Technology Web Page >http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm > >At 06:05 PM 8/26/99 -0700, Chuck wrote: > >>I did a preliminary "floor plan" for the PDP-8 and it used just under 1/3 >>of the 4010 (or 75% of a 4005 given the routing issues, which leaves enough >>to do an M8660 serial port.) >> >>--Chuck >> >>

26 years, 3 months

4
3
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FS: Old UNIX serverware for 386 cpu

by ds284＠hotmail.com

FOR SALE: Approx. 18 pounds of software/manuals, consisting of two packages; all sells for one money. Best offer over $24 takes. Deadline for offers is September 11, 1999. * Retix Open Server 400 for UNIX MH-4410 ISC/SCO, Ver. 1.41 * Retix SMTP Gateway to X.400, Ver. 2.01 BOTH are provided on dual-format hi-density floppies. Software disk packages have been opened, but appear to show little usage. Sys. Requirements: ------------------ * SCO UNIX Sys. V/386, Rel. 3.2, Ver. 2.0 and 4.0 * Interactive UNIX Sys. V/386, Rel. 3.2, Ver. 2.2 and 3.0 and 386 cpu, 4 or 8 Mb RAM, 100 Mb disk space, including OS; hi-density floppy Ships from Laurel, Maryland 20707 USA only, please. ============================================================= ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

FPGAs and PDP-11's

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see comments embedded below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 4:41 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >On Aug 27, 20:46, Hans Franke wrote: >> Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >> > Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to >memory >> > operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one >register >> > at a time. >> >> TXA ? (Don't kill me :) > >And the indexed instructions such as ADC (nn,X), of course, and TSX, etc. > This is a case like the TXA, etc, which is a simple transfer from one register to another with no ALU operation. > >> > much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the >ALU >> > is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this >leads?) >> >> More than once ? >> Maybe I'm just blind, but I cant see more than one ALU op per cycle. > Well, on each cycle it flows the PCL through the ALU, adding zero with carry. The indexing operations and stack pointer op's also do arithmetic on the ABL and SP. Likewise, the INC and DEC instructions flow data from the register block to the register block through the ALU. Still, there are no register operations which require access to more than one register's contents at a time. The critical issue being that the registers can simply be implemented in a RAM. In fact, it appears that the RAM block might best be implemented in an inverting RAM like the 74189 (actually a 16x4, but two would work) because the arithmetic unit might work quite well as a simple adder/subtractor, with a multiplexer as the shifter unit. The fact that this RAM has separate inputs and outputs makes the TTL model very simple. > >Some of the indexed instructions do. Once to add the offset, and once for >the operation requested, eg ADC (nn),Y. > The indexing operations involve arithmetic on memory address operands rather than on register contents. The instruction contains the absolute address or a pointer to it, and an index register contains an offset. Arithmetic is done on the address components and only on one element in the register set. Either one or two address bytes are part of the instruction, depending on the mode, and the index register contains the offset to be added to the low address byte either from the instruction or from the table to which a zero page pointer directs it and 16-bit arithmetic is done on that using only one byte from the register set. These indexed instructions using indirection take as many as 6 (7 if a page boundary is crossed) cycles. The arithmetic can always be done using the ALU, however. >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York

26 years, 3 months

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mailing list down????

by macierno＠cvm.msstate.edu

Is the mailing listt down, havn't seen any activity for the past day or so! mark acierno ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2

26 years, 3 months

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FPGAs and PDP-11's

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Aug 27, 20:46, Hans Franke wrote: > Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's > > Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to memory > > operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one register > > at a time. > > TXA ? (Don't kill me :) And the indexed instructions such as ADC (nn,X), of course, and TSX, etc. > > much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the ALU > > is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this leads?) > > More than once ? > Maybe I'm just blind, but I cant see more than one ALU op per cycle. Some of the indexed instructions do. Once to add the offset, and once for the operation requested, eg ADC (nn),Y. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 3 months

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FPGAs and PDP-11's

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're quite right, but I actually meant that there aren't any instructions which operate on more than one register at a time using the ALU with more than one register for inputs. If you consider the instructions which do use the ALU, you can see that a single register set, implemented as a RAM block would allow you to transfer from the register RAM outputs through the ALU and back into the registers in a single operation. That's what makes this architecture so thrifty, as it means that you can send the PCL through the ALU, adding a zero with carry set, and back to PCL, setting a carry flag if that's applicable and if carry's true, then adding zero with carry to PCH again storing the result in the source register. In reality there are several operations which use the register set as both source and destination, but none which use TWO registers as operands and then use the registers as a destination as well. What that allows is that you use a ram location as PCH, one as PCL, one as SP, and one as each of the registers, X, Y, and A. Because of the way the thing works, the logic paths are simple and straightforward to steer via a single data bus from the ALU back to the register inputs. That explains why there's an extra cycle needed whenever addressing across a page-boundary occurred. If you constrain your thinking to the logic components which were available back in the mid '70's, e.g. 74181, 74189 (for the register set), and consider what was on the data bus when a "float" was encountered during a read, namely the PCH, you begin to see the rudiments of this processor's internal architecture. Moreover, if you think of the "pipleining" used by the 650x in terms, not of synchronous pipleining as commonly used today, but of pipelining the control structure so that the data flow could be managed not with edge-triggered flip-flops but with gated latches, ala-7475, then you see how the timing was developed. The ALU was always a path for data from the registers to the registers' input bus. The data bus output latch was, of course taking inputs from this as well, and the output data, coincidentally followed the rising edge of the phase-2 clock by about the same amount of time as the valid addresses followed the falling edge. Since register-to-register operations had to flow through the ALU, and since the registers had a common input path, only one register could be targeted at a time. Since the register set is a RAM, you couldn't do it any other way. If separate registers had been used, the number of multiplexers would have been made the chip much larger. The operations on the accumulator which required either immediate data or data from memory were served by an impending operand register which was loaded from the last memory fetch prior to the execution of the operation. This action took a cycle, but didn't involve the data bus, so that what when the processor fetched the next opcode, knowing that the impending operand register was not involved in that operation and knowing that the one register which would be unaffected by an opcode fetch was the IOR. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 12:45 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >> Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to memory >> operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one register >> at a time. > >TXA ? (Don't kill me :) > >[...using 'only' one ALU...] > >Not uncommon back than and very efficient. I still belive the 65xx >is one of the best - the instruction set is well defined to get >the maximum out of a minimal hardware. You can see the function >blocks klick just by looking at the instructions. > >> [... about resources] > >Exact, thats the main Problem with most %used numbers. > > >> I've taken a good hard look at implementing the 6500 core in XILINX and find >> that performance, which is VERY much of interest, is impacted most by ALU >> design. Now, the Virtex CLB allows a single CLB to function as a two-bit >> full-adder. If one wants the best performance/resource allocation tradeoff, >> I'm nearly convinced that the best way might be to design it with a 2-bit >> ALU slice because the resource consumption is small yet the delay for a >> 2-bit registered implementation of an 8-bit ALU would be just as fast as an >> 8-bit implementation because of the carry delay from stage to stage. It >> appears to me that the rate-determining step, then, becomes how fast a clock >> can be routed through the array. In the case of the 2-bit slice, it doesn't >> have to propagate very far to get the job done. > >Well, after all, any serious attempt to bring a 6502 into a FPGA >will be about speed - and saving resources might not be the >primary goal. > >> With an 8-bit >> implementation, there's a lot more routing delay, and at least four times as >> much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the ALU >> is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this leads?) > >More than once ? >Maybe I'm just blind, but I cant see more than one ALU op per cycle. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

26 years, 3 months

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IBM 5100 Serial Number Project Redux

by wsmith＠gj.com

My serial number project is going slowly. I only received two responses (thanks, Charlie and Joe) and so my sample set has a woeful three date points:13352 (Charlie's), 13513 (mine, sold 1/77) and 14213 (Joe's, sold 9/77). Perhaps a rate of about 1000 units per year in 1977, but too little info to tell. If this rate is correct, I would suspect the the numbering began around 12000 or so. C'mon everybody, have a look at the back of your 5100 (the number is engraved into the back of the case, usually preceeded by a "10-") and keep those numbers coming. Thanks.

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by edick＠idcomm.com

addressing only the comment quoted below . . . Really, Tony, I think you overemphasize the importance of the individual user to the semiconductor manufacturers. The level of competition for the FPGA business has escalated to where the development software, previously costing several K-bucks US, now costs as little as $100, and, in the case of ALTERA, is quite free. Now, that's not the complete package with all the bells and whistles, but it's enough to build a device from start to finish. I really doubt that it would turn out to be illegal to take the old 11-70 or whatever schematic and essentially clone it in an FPGA, but I doubt a clever rebuilder would want to do that anyway. It might be either equally good in the end product to build the thing so it's thriftier than the TTL design would be, yet still a bit faster, or so it's quite a bit faster and perhaps not quite the same. It doesn't have to be identical to run the same code. The technology in FPGA's these days is such that it enables devices to operate between 10 and 50 times the speed of the old TTL logic designed in the '70's. That doesn't mean you can take a '70's design and "transliterate" it and make it run lots faster, though that is conceivable. What it does mean is, similarly to translating poetry from one language to another, logical constructs can be ported from one technology to the other, changing the outward and physical details of the circuitry, yet preserving the upper-level sense of the logic in such a way that it capitalizes on the available enhancements, thereby yielding a product which is quite different >from the original, yet performs the identical task in more or less the same way at MUCH greater speed, or MUCH lower complexity, and, hopefully lower cost. Once you've translated a poem, you've done the same work as the poet, more, in fact, yet you've created nothing new. OTOH, in the case of the computer, redesigned to capitalize on new technology, I believe you could argue that it is, indeed, something quite new. If it were to be generated for, say , a XILINX part of the 5200 series, it would not necessarily be very costly, nor would it be difficult once one has the original print set as crib sheets. What's more, it would potentially be so much faster than the original, and take up so much less space, e.g. a 2" square package, you could build the MMU into it and interface it directly to the DRAMs, maybe adding a circuit to copy the ROM code into RAM during its boot. Schematic entry would be the easiest way to clone the prints, but HDL is considered by many to be the best way to implement an architecture, the behavior of which is well defined and understood. If you build your device in VHDL or VERILOG, it is inherently portable, since both XILINX and Altera, among others, support both. Building a device like this in several parts merely ups the cost, since resources are consumed by the interconnection between them. Time is used up in the interconnections as well, so performance would be lower. When all is said and done, the single FPGA is the "right" notion. I don't think the FPGA makers would care if you use their parts to craft a device. If you have the HDL code, nearly any distributor will provide you access to the resources to implement it in a product they sell, provided you buy the parts from them. They cost a few dollars in small quantity, but if you say the right "things" when approaching them, and seem sufficiently eccentric, they'll treat you right. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 4:08 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question <snip> >I am sure it's illegal to (say) take the PDP11/70 printset, modify it so >that it could work in an FPGA (and there would be significant mods), and >implement it like that. I am not so sure there would be any problem if >you just took the instruction set and designed a CPU to run it without >using any DEC printsets. People have done this with the PDP8 for many years. > > >> >> Given the complexity of the 11/70 CPU it should be possible to put the >> entire thing inside a relatively inexpensive FPGA these days. Given >> something like NetBSD that is already multi-architecture aware, that would >> make it possible to have an open source OS running on it. We could >> potentially get to a system that was completely "open hardware." (ie anyone >> could build one with no royalty requirements, and hackers could build them >> for fun.) > >If you wanted to do this, then it would probably be easier to design a >CPU from scratch (which is not hard) that was better suited to running *BSD. > >Also, be warned that if you're going to use FPGAs you have to use the >manufacturer's tools which are not going to be Open-Source, and which are >not going to run under Open-Source OSes. Several of us have moaned about >this for quite a time, but alas there are no 100% documented FPGAs out >there, and if anyone manages to crack the configuration format, you can >bet the manufacturers will change it, along with a 'free update' to the >official tools. > >In other words, the machine won't really be free for anyone to construct. > >-tony >

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< How many gates is a single chip processor going to use? And how < expensive is an FPGA that size. Or are large PALs a better choice < (free tools for AMD/Vantis MACH series, and Altera's entry level < parts) Figure well in to the 10000+ region. The PDP-11 looks simple but it's not! < What to use for a system. If I use a QBus based system (I have < several available) what are the timing requirements? Is there < a doc for this? Or Unibus? Or (my current favorite) Socket-7... Least significant consideration. First the chip/chips. < What architecture? Microcoded or gates? Microcode requires an < assembler, but might be quicker in the long run. Microcoded, all of the chip level 11s are (LSI-11, F11, T11, J11). < And when its all done, what is it really good for? How many < "hardware hackers" are interested in building CPU boards, and < are willing to share the cost of laying out and manufacturing < PCBs? Look a any PDP-11 ask that question, theres your answer. <I will probably make a stab at it, but depending on life, might not <ever finish... It's doable, the docs needed are commonly available. Costly. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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Evovling computers (Was Re: PDP era and a question)

by max82＠surfree.com

><http://www.newscientist.com/nsplus/insight/ai/primordial.html> Wow, thanks for that link, John. I was not aware that this type of 'genetic programming' had actually come this far. The one thing that bothers me about it is that the scientist does not know how it works. Although I realize that it has to come to this at some point, I would really like to know how the machines which I create function. Besides for the fact that I would then be able to fix them, I could also rule out the possibility of this machine trying to take over the world or some such thing (possible with an advanced enough machine).

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by edick＠idcomm.com

The rule of thumb back in the '70's was that TTL was "good" to 25 MHz. Current generation FPGA's routinely operate at 10x that speed, while, in reality, it was an exceptional TTL design of the '70's that would allow a significant bit of circuitry, e.g. a FIFO or a synchronous state machine, to operate across more than a very few bits at that speed. Typical prop-delays of 10-15 ns would add up quickly. (remember that we've since then learned about pipleine registers, which were not in common usage then.) The latest (e.g. VIRTEX) families boast synchronous performances of 500 MHz for such structures, though their CLB's (configurable logic blocks) have prop-delays of under a ns and clock-to-q prop's in that range as well. Those CLB's are really lookup tables in which you program a random function of up to 5 variables, hence get the same prop whether it's a nand or an xnor. It would take a clever designer indeed to get anywhere near the top level of performance with a rework of the PDP-11 processor, but it's been attempted. There are more than one of them out there, though I haven't kept up on that. Nevertheless, if you do it, particularly in a popular HDL, you're developing essentially your own intellectual property, and in a portable medium which you can use with any vendor's product. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 6:35 AM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> The technology in FPGA's these days is such that it enables devices to >> operate between 10 and 50 times the speed of the old TTL logic designed in > >Old ttl was nowhere near that much slower. The lowly 7400 in 72 was >comfortablly under 15ns, true the FPA part may be under 1ns now but... >that's not 50X! Of course adding interconnection delays and other factors >the 10x number is very honest. > >> the '70's. That doesn't mean you can take a '70's design and >> "transliterate" it and make it run lots faster, though that is conceivable. > >This is true of any from one logic system to another. PDP-8 for example >used a lot of "wired or" and similar logic in the data paths to conserve >gates. Of course that was a slower way to do it but lower cost too. >So a design translation can buy speed at the cost of logic or design >effort. > >> Schematic entry would be the easiest way to clone the prints, but HDL is >> considered by many to be the best way to implement an architecture, the >> behavior of which is well defined and understood. If you build your device >> in VHDL or VERILOG, it is inherently portable, since both XILINX and Altera, >> among others, support both. > >VHDL is the way to go but developing the description would be the real >work. > >> access to the resources to implement it in a product they sell, provided you >> buy the parts from them. They cost a few dollars in small quantity, but if >> you say the right "things" when approaching them, and seem sufficiently >> eccentric, they'll treat you right. > >Roger that. Besides, they know if you do one your likely to use it for >other things (drag factor). > >Allison >

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Here's an interesting twist: genetic algorithms in FPGAs, discriminating words and tones: <http://www.newscientist.com/nsplus/insight/ai/primordial.html> - John

26 years, 3 months

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Harris Mainframe? (fwd)

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

Can someone help this guy out? Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: garald4(a)net-link.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:10:01 -0700 From: Garald Austin Barton IV <garald4(a)net-link.net> To: vcf(a)vintage.org Subject: Harris Mainframe? I am a college student looking for information about a mainframe. Harris (Data Communications Division) Model No. KH174-32R Made approx. 1984 Thank you for your time. Any response is appreciated. garald4 Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 08/17/99] [Last web site update: 08/17/99]

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

>Other companies have made drop-in PDP-11 replacements over the years, too. >QEI (based in MA) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/34's, 11/44's, and >11/70's, and Setasi (in Florida) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/70's. Correction it is QED in MA. I have one of their J11 upgrades for 11/24's - with docs. QEI is a DEC dealer. There is also Nissho that I have seen info on but have never played with. >Yes, I have run RT-11, RSX-11, and 2.11 BSD on systems that didn't >have a single DEC hardware component in them. (For example, a Mentec >M100 CPU and Andromeda disk controller in a third-party Q-bus backplane.) > The M100 I have in hand still uses the J11 however. I think the latest ones they went away from real J11's. Dan

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Making a processor is not hard (although FPGAs might make it harder than >just using simple TTL chips -- some of the manufacturer's claims on this >are plain false). I'd not try to re-implement the PDP11 unless you had a >good reason to do that -- rather, design an instruction set and >architecture and implement it. I agree 100% here. *Especially* if your goal is to run NetBSD or Linux or (insert popular Unix-like free OS here). These OS's simply don't fit well into the 16-bit virtual address space of an -11 (2.11 BSD has many of the features of modern Unices, but doesn't have the wastage found in NetBSD or Linux). A small, RISC-ish instruction set is perfect for implementing NetBSD on. Things get a bit more complicated as you add the necessary memory management, of course! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<are plain false). I'd not try to re-implement the PDP11 unless you had a <good reason to do that -- rather, design an instruction set and <architecture and implement it. Good point. If you want a good -11, find one. Myself I find the 11 to be more of a software playground with that instruction set. If I were doing my own, well then, it's a matter of what if... I'd start with a 32bit PDP-8 (just add 20 more bits on the right side). I'd keep the PDP-8 instructions (add a few more microcoded ones for byte ops), addressing and IO. With 32bit addressing and 27 bits direct addressing in both current page and page 0 it would make a good enough graphics cpu to be useful, if fast. Even if scaled back to 24 bits it would be interesting. Also very buildable using 74F parts. At the same time old PDP-8 code could be "lofted" to run on it so a OS would be possible in a reasonable time. With a little effort a .3us instruction cycle is very doable (3mips!) maybe even faster. Pentium no, but fast enough to make some sense. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

As was pointed out on the NetBSD list, Compaq has officially End-of-lifed (EOLd) the VAX architecture. This follows a trend of having EOLs the -8, -10, -11, and now VAX series. I suggested to some folks, off list, that perhaps DEC should make the PDP-11 architecture "open source" in the sense of allowing anyone to produce PDP-11 capable processors but was told that Mentec has purchased the rights to the PDP-11 architecture from DEC. What's up with that? True? False? Kind-a true? (I know Mentec sells PDP-11 compatible computers) Given the complexity of the 11/70 CPU it should be possible to put the entire thing inside a relatively inexpensive FPGA these days. Given something like NetBSD that is already multi-architecture aware, that would make it possible to have an open source OS running on it. We could potentially get to a system that was completely "open hardware." (ie anyone could build one with no royalty requirements, and hackers could build them for fun.) --Chuck

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Can you restrict an architecture like this? I've never heard of an <Interlectual Property case being based on the fact that the 2 products <(CPUs) run the same instruction set. DEC and oh I forget on PDP-8, NEC and intel on 8086/V20 and plenty more. <Also, be warned that if you're going to use FPGAs you have to use the <manufacturer's tools which are not going to be Open-Source, and which are <not going to run under Open-Source OSes. Several of us have moaned about Not all are restricted to one vendor. Just why bother. Now, if you really want to build a PDP-11 of any kind yank the t11 chip >from a dead Vt240/241/RQDXn and build one to suit ones self. It's a real PDP-11 and it does run RT11 (assuming standard devices) as the falcon card does. If 64kb of addressing is not enough try building a mapper like most of the 11s have, a couple of 74189s should do. This is a nice 40 pin dip and not much hard to design with than z80 though the z80 never offered things like selectable 8/16bit bus or selectable start/restart addresses not to mention cycle and clock options. Performance is better than LSI-11 if memory runs without wait states. Creating the chip is half the task, putting it to work is the real fun. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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PDP era and a question

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I suggested to some folks, off list, that perhaps DEC should make the >PDP-11 architecture "open source" in the sense of allowing anyone to >produce PDP-11 capable processors but was told that Mentec has purchased >the rights to the PDP-11 architecture from DEC. What's up with that? True? >False? Kind-a true? (I know Mentec sells PDP-11 compatible computers) Mentec sells several different kinds of PDP-11 compatible computers, some of them based on the DEC/Harris J-11 chipset, others based around custom FPGA's. See http://www.mentec.com/ for a rundown. Other companies have made drop-in PDP-11 replacements over the years, too. QEI (based in MA) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/34's, 11/44's, and 11/70's, and Setasi (in Florida) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/70's. I don't think there's any legal impediment to picking up a PDP-11 processor handbook and implementing your own hardware design of the architecture. (Just as there's nothing stopping you from building a PC-clone motherboard or a x86 CPU based on published specs.) In the end, you'll have to be sure that you aren't stepping on anybody's patents, of course. >Given the complexity of the 11/70 CPU it should be possible to put the >entire thing inside a relatively inexpensive FPGA these days. The faster Mentec boards are heavily built around FPGA's, they are certainly one common way to go for such things. > Given >something like NetBSD that is already multi-architecture aware, that would >make it possible to have an open source OS running on it. I'm not sure that NetBSD is necessarily the way to go. It hogs memory like crazy (not something you want to do in the 16-bit virtual address space of an -11), the standard compiler (gcc) is a real CPU-eater compared to "native" compilers, and changes to the predominantly Intel-based sources take a long time to get "fixed up" for the less common architectures. Heck, the current Vax port is actually less functional (in terms of stability and hardware support) than it was three years ago. OTOH, for $100 you can get a Unix source license ( see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/index.html ) and run 2.11BSD on your hardware, which gives you just about everything you could want from a modern Unix (including networking) that will actually fit. And it doesn't use gcc - that's a *real* advantage on an -11! Yes, I have run RT-11, RSX-11, and 2.11 BSD on systems that didn't have a single DEC hardware component in them. (For example, a Mentec M100 CPU and Andromeda disk controller in a third-party Q-bus backplane.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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CS/80

by gossonb＠kan.marconi.ca

I don't know if you are still interest in any of this stuff but I have copies of the CS/80 protocol. I actually support a system that was development in the early 80's and is still in use by British Telecom. We have prototype and are putting together a proposal to use a PC with a GPIB card to emulate a disk drive using the CS/80 command set. Let me know if you have any interest in this. Regards, Bruce Gosson Braddan Bridge Consulting bgosson(a)cyberus.ca

26 years, 3 months

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Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on dent)

by ccfsm＠ipa.net

This has been an interesting, uh, exchange of and on many viewpoints and I've found value in quite a bit of it, i.e. it makes you think. But I do take exception to >> Even business do things they don't like or wish to do. Businesses, just like the independent people who run them, can only do what they want to do. You do what you want to do - always. You might hide your decisions behind the guise of "business made me do it" or "my spouse won't let me keep the 5360 in the house" or some such, but you made the decision, your choice is your choice. Businesses both big and small hide behind this "we didn't want to do it" nonsense as do individuals - but you can only do what it is you indented to do, what you want to do, unless of course you have a dirty bus connector or a bad memory module or a flaky CPU or faulty programming, eh? You list the possible decisions, the possible outcomes of each decision, the relative plus and minus of each variable - and then you decide what course of action to take, You do what you want. BTW - Does anybody know of any hobby level (cheep) GP-IB programming tools? All I want to do is control several DVM and a counter and function generator - minimal stuff for very basic bench automation. Any ideals? Thanks Roger Goswick Coca-Cola Bottling rdg

26 years, 3 months

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Fwd: Commadores and IBM available in Cleveland Ohio

by dlw＠trailingedge.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990826/77ea6430/at…

26 years, 3 months

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Wes Graham Obit

by cdrmool＠interlog.com

26 years, 3 months

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Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP

by allisonp＠world.std.com

included are the headers as I typically get them. RDFmail collects the whole mess from SGI unix (or whatever they call it) via mail. Allison <From CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Wed Aug 25 21:51:24 1999 <Return-Path: <CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu> <Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu (root(a)lists3.u.washington.edu [140.1 < by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16032; < Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:49:39 -0400 (EDT) <Received: from host (server(a)lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) < by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with SMTP id SAA0 < Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:49:04 -0700 <Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8] < by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id SAA3 < for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:48:57 -0700 <Received: from quartz.netsync.net (IDENT:root@quartz.netsync.net [206.231.8 < by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.08) with ESMTP id SAA27 < for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:48:56 -0700 <Received: from default (jmtnppp191.netsync.net [208.20.32.205]) < by quartz.netsync.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA02554 < for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:37:06 -0400 <Message-Id: <4.1.19990825213253.00a82460(a)206.231.8.2> <Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:48:41 -0400 <Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu <Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu <Precedence: bulk <List-Help: <http://www.washington.edu/computing/listproc/> <List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:listproc@u.washington.edu?body=unsubscribe%20clas <List-Subscribe: <mailto:listproc@u.washington.edu?body=subscribe%20classicc <List-Owner: <mailto:classiccmp-request@u.washington.edu> (Human contact for <List-Post: <mailto:classiccmp@u.washington.edu> <From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> <To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washingto <Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP <In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9908221207410.8085-100000@shell1> <References: <4.1.19990821214656.00a99100(a)206.231.8.2> <Mime-Version: 1.0 <Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" <X-Sender: cfandt(a)206.231.8.2 <X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN <Status: R < <Upon the date 12:08 PM 8/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: <>On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: <> <>> Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containi <>> all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece o <>> Sellam's msg: <> <>Wow, I've never seen that stuff. Does that appear for every message you <>read in your mailer software? It's probably in the headers, but PINE <>doesn't display it for me. < <Hi Sellam, < <Just got back from a mini vacation down to Dayton, Oh. (That Air Force <Museum just gets better and better . . . :) So, I'm just getting into a <stack of 448 messages piled up since Sunday AM. < <Yes, it does appear for every msg from ClassicCmp. Those five lines just <suddenly started to be included with the header one day and that day _may_ <IIRC, have coincided with the new list server software Derek mentioned tha <the U. of Wash. installed. < <Here's the five extra header lines copied again for those who weren't <keeping track of the thread early on: < <"List-Help: <http://www.washington.edu/computing/listproc/> <List-Unsubscribe: <<mailto:listproc@u.washington.edu?body=unsubscribe%20classiccmp> <List-Subscribe: <<mailto:listproc@u.washington.edu?body=subscribe%20classiccmp%20YourName> <List-Owner: <mailto:classiccmp-request@u.washington.edu> (Human contact fo <the list) <List-Post: <mailto:classiccmp@u.washington.edu>" < <I haven't ever used PINE but I understand it is a text only email program <(which is what we only need 99.95% of the time.) So, perhaps there's some <funny stuff going on with the formatting of the text and PINE just happily <ignores it. With Eudora Pro, for example, those URLs are underlined links <and all I have to do is click on one if I need to use that function. Sort <of handy I think, but it does add to the length of the msg file. < <I suppose Derek may have weighed-in already with his expert input on the <list s/w, so I'd better shut up now. (Hey, he's a student and keeper of <this list at the U. of Washington, so that makes hime the de facto "expert" < <Regards, Chris <-- -- <Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian <Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net < Member of Antique Wireless Association < URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ <

26 years, 3 months

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VAXstation 3100/30 Questions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<4MB on the motherboard and two daughter boards with 12MB and <8MB. The two daughter boards connect together with only one <connecting to the motherboard. Where would you attach another <board with 8MB more memory? You don't. You use a 16mb card. They were configured in different sizes. For a VAX 8-16mb (pre1990) was a LOT of memory and VMS (or ultrix) typically ran very well in that. I have a 3100m10e with 24mb (1x16 +1x8). The other thing is not all 3100s used the same scheme for mounting memory. My 3100/m76 uses a version of 72pin simms (it was a later machine). <Although the system came with a hard drive and OpenVMS, I got the <hobbyist OpenVMS CD-ROM and want to install it on another hard <drive that I've added. The drive is an IBM Model 0663-H, which <is a 1GB (slightly less, actually, if you count in base 2) drive. <The specs for the drive say it is "compatible" with the VS3100 <when a configuration is made using a SCSI command (which I have <no way of doing, of course--it must be done by a driver). I <connect the drive, the VS3100 console sees it fine, and then I <try to do a low-level format using Test 75. At various times <(varies randomly) into the formatting progress I get an error <"PV_SCS_FMT_ERR#2", which I have no idea of its meaning. What <does this mean? I though test 71 is the righ one. Also you have to have the correct SCSI address (anything but 6, thats the vax). Also most of the 3100s have two scsi busses with disks as DKAnnn, or DKBnnn. <Is there any termination on the internal SCSI A bus on this <machine, or does the last drive on the cable need to do it? <(The IBM Model 0633-H doesn't have any, and it was on the <middle connector.) I believe SCSI A is self terminating if the cable forms a loop. If the MV3100 has a different SCSI scheme you may need to terminate. Also SCSI B on all of mine needs termination. I've used non DEC drives successfully. Thought he CDrom can be installed comfortably on a single RZ56 (680mb) and VMS will fit on much smaller. I've just done my first 7.2 install on my M10e, the base system with everything used less than 300k blocks (150mb). Allison

26 years, 3 months

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First Book of KIM

by rcini＠msn.com

Hello, all: Last night, I sort of got approval from Jim Butterfield to post a copy of The First Book of KIM. He really didn't say "do it", but he said to look at this other guy's work and look at the copyright in the book (it's really an anti-copyright). First off, here's a useful URL http://www.total.net/~yhpun/Kim-1.html Second, I'll more than likely start scanning the book next week, to eventually be posted on the secure area. Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 3 months

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More mailing list spam

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

The recent 'Color TV' spam has been traced and identified, and a formal complaint has been filed. If anyone else wishes to express their displeasure, please feel free to send your comments (preferably polite) to: prion(a)diginet.net (He's listed as the administrative contact for the domain ELIPIA.CO.KR, who is hosting KOTEC.NET -- the domain that spammed us). tychoi(a)samsung.co.kr (Listed as the domain contact for unitel.co.kr, where the spammer(s) are maintaining a mailbox). Enjoy, but remember... one catches a lot more flies with honey than vinegar. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 3 months

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Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containing all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece of Sellam's msg: >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:54:17 -0700 (PDT) >Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu >List-Help: <http://www.washington.edu/computing/listproc/> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:listproc@u.washington.edu?body=unsubscribe%20classiccmp> >List-Subscribe: <mailto:listproc@u.washington.edu?body=subscribe%20classiccmp%20YourName> >List-Owner: <mailto:classiccmp-request@u.washington.edu> (Human contact for the list) >List-Post: <mailto:classiccmp@u.washington.edu> >From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Subject: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP >X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >X-Authentication-Warning: shell1. ncal.verio.com: dastar owned process doing >-bs > >On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Jon wrote: > >> Can someone refresh my memory as to the proper procedure to subscribe >> & unsubscribe from this list? > >I'll just post this publicly: > >send e-mail to listproc(a)u.washington.edu -- snip -- May be the reason Jon had no info at hand how to unsubscribe . . . Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/

26 years, 3 months

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Portable color TV

by swcl＠unitel.co.kr

We SOWON, are one of the leading designers of quality portable color TV receiver employing state of the art microprocessor technology in Korea. SOWON has long been experienced and involved in the electronics industry, which now leads the current wave of changes, supplying a broadcast receiving equipment since it,s inception. Since then, we have diversified our business on high expectations that international trade will be more important in the 21st century, thus helping to build a more affluent society. With the aim of improving the quality of life and proposing a new sense of value, SOWON will exert every endeavors to fulfill your requirement whenever you want something special. Whether you're in work or in leisure, our quality product can be with you! home page: http://www.swn.co.kr Tel: 82-2-2249-4311 Fax: 82-2-2242-3693 E-mail: swcl(a)unitel.co.kr For more details at our website.

26 years, 3 months

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Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > This is not typical. Most older FDC cards drive all the floppy interface > lines with 7438 (or similar open-collector gates) devices. More modern > ones put everything into the same ASIC as the floppy controller logic > (and maybe other things as well). Right. The Amiga is atypical. This PeeCeeoid is industry standard inside. > > I'm trying to make a cable to hook up floppy drive to a proprietary DB-25 > > external connector on a sealed PeeCeeoid. > > Sealed? No such thing :-)... That's what screwdrivers, torx drivers, > hammers, etc are for.. Of course. That's how I got as far as I did - I disassembled the box, located a 34-pad spot on the motherboard where a floppy connector *should* go, then used a VOM to trace the wiring between the internal 34-pin connector and the external 25-pin connector. What stumped me was a lack of /MOTORON (pin 16). All is now well. It boots Linux just fine. Thanks. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 3 months

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RK11 and M9312 questions

by wrking＠tsoft.com

I just received a load of boards that were associated with an 11/34. I'm going to try to upgrade my 11/04, but since I don't have any doc's I have a few questions. If anyone could help, it would be greatly appreciated. 1. What are the switch settings for a M9312 bootstrap/terminator card? 2. On the M9312, there is a jumper that has been lifted on the left edge of the card (next to the third chip up from the edge connector). What's this for? 3. My M9312 has three empty sockets. Is this normal? 4. I have a 4 board set for the RK11 controller. Can this plug into a standard unibus, or does it require a special backplane? If I remember correctly, you use a unibus extension cable to daisy chain into the rk05's. 5. Can anyone direct me to the description of the two edge connectors on the top of the 11/34 board set? Thanks, Bill

26 years, 3 months

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xxdp boot disk

by jritorto＠nut.net

how do I make a bootable rx33 xxdp disk? I currently have version 2.5 on an rl02. TIA jake

26 years, 3 months

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Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > Silly suggestion. Have you tried linking pin 16 on the drive to the drive > > > select line (pin 14 most likely). Leave the drive select wire connected > > > there as well. So that the motor goes on whenever the drive is selected. Based on the depth of the ongoing discussion, I gave this a try. I works! > In any case, blowing a transistor is a lot less of a problem than blowing > a custom chip. The transistor is on the Amiga (which I was using for schematic examples); this drive is going on bizzaro PC device. > I've forgotten what you're trying to do, but what happens if you just > match up signal names as above? I'm trying to make a cable to hook up floppy drive to a proprietary DB-25 external connector on a sealed PeeCeeoid. Thanks for the help! -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 3 months

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Speaking of Tandys... 2800HD parts?

by musicman38＠mindspring.com

-----Original Message----- From: musicman38(a)mindspring.com <musicman38(a)mindspring.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Speaking of Tandys... 2800HD parts? >>I just picked up a Tandy 2800HD laptop! Anyone have any clues/leads where >>I can find a power supply board and floppy drive for this thing? >> > > >You can still buy a new one from Tandy. See Tandy.com >or you can build one, I think its 9.8 volts.. >But you can goto their support site and it will give you the specs on it.. > >I purchased mine form them as it need one also, about $16.00 I think.. > >Phil... > Correction the website is http://support.tandy.com/ Phil...

26 years, 3 months

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Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Well, archeology was, and still _is_ about value, and I'm not > talking about anything beside money. Just look at your news. > If theres a stupid pile of roman silver, it's top news and > it gets a lot of attention. The historic value is zero, but > it's silver - on the other side, it needs a earth shaking > discovery (like the Keltic statue two years ago) just to > have a few lines... Non sequitur, I think. I agree that the news coverage bears this out well, but I don't agree that this is the opinion of _any_ serious archaeologist, amateur or professional, of my acquaintance. I think that news coverage is about money. The money mentality that pervades so much of our society means that the newspapers measure the importance of _anything_ they don't actually understand by the amount of money involved. Money is as relevant to archaeologists as it is to the rest of us, but I don't think it is the main driver for most, or even many, of the people who do significant work in this field. Philip. PS I don't recall hearing about this Celtic statue - can you point me to more detail?

26 years, 3 months

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Speaking of Tandys... 2800HD parts?

by musicman38＠mindspring.com

>I just picked up a Tandy 2800HD laptop! Anyone have any clues/leads where >I can find a power supply board and floppy drive for this thing? > You can still buy a new one from Tandy. See Tandy.com or you can build one, I think its 9.8 volts.. But you can goto their support site and it will give you the specs on it.. I purchased mine form them as it need one also, about $16.00 I think.. Phil...

26 years, 3 months

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"PC Roadkill" book site gone?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Michael Hyman's "PC Roadkill" book site at <http://www.nwlink.com/~tigger> has disappeared. Anyone know where it went? He had been hosting the executables for Claus Giloi's IMSAI/Altair emulators for Windows. I still have the source on my page at <http://www.threedee.com/jcm/> but now that this other page has disappeared, I think I'll add the executables, too. - John

26 years, 3 months

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Speaking of Tandys... 2800HD parts?

by arfonrg＠texas.net

I just picked up a Tandy 2800HD laptop! Anyone have any clues/leads where I can find a power supply board and floppy drive for this thing? A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

26 years, 3 months

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Strange drive unit

by PasserM＠umkc.edu

Chris, Another drive made for the C-64 was the Indus GT drive (more well known among Atari 8-bit users). It's cool looking-- all black with a smoked plexiglass cover and two 7 segment LED's showing what track the drive was using or the most recent error code. And another was something like the "Excelerator Pro", which has a cheap look and feel to it, though it may well be an OK drive. --Michael Passer mwp(a)acm.org >There were at least two other manufacturers of Commodore drives besides Commodore >itself, but memory fails me at the moment...none of them were 100% compatible, and as >such left the market rather early on in the game.

26 years, 3 months

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Strange drive unit

by foxvideo＠wincom.net

I found this in one of my cupboards, don't know where or when I got it. Micro-systems development Inc. Dallas Texas Model SD-2 Two TEC 51/4 floppy drives, Model FB501, mounted vertically Built in AC supply Rear panel has two 6 contact female DIN sockets and one 24 contact female connection similar to a Centronics printer, only smaller. The construction is generally similar to that used on Apple ][ drive cases, although I suspect this might have something to do with a PET. Can any one enlighten me? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo

26 years, 3 months

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Strange drive unit

by PasserM＠umkc.edu

That is an MSD SD-2 dual drive. It was sold as a premium drive for the Commodore 64, and supports either serial or IEEE-488 interfaces. It would work with a PET, as well, via the IEEE-488 interface. One of its compelling features is its ability to copy a diskette completely in its firmware with one command, and quickly. If you would like to sell it, I would be interested :>. Nice find! --Michael Passer mwp(a)acm.org -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Charles E. Fox Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:12 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Strange drive unit I found this in one of my cupboards, don't know where or when I got it. Micro-systems development Inc. Dallas Texas Model SD-2 Two TEC 51/4 floppy drives, Model FB501, mounted vertically Built in AC supply Rear panel has two 6 contact female DIN sockets and one 24 contact female connection similar to a Centronics printer, only smaller. The construction is generally similar to that used on Apple ][ drive cases, although I suspect this might have something to do with a PET. Can any one enlighten me? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo

26 years, 3 months

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Strange drive unit

by KFergason＠aol.com

Sounds like a MSD-2 Dual floppy for Commodores. pretty cool. relatively rare. 1541 compatible, but the copy-protected stuff wouldn't work on them. I think Fast Hack-em had a SD-2 copier, could copy a non-protected disk pretty quick. Kelly In a message dated 8/25/99 8:13:18 AM Central Daylight Time, foxvideo(a)wincom.net writes: > I found this in one of my cupboards, don't know where or when I got it. > > Micro-systems development Inc. Dallas Texas > > Model SD-2 > > Two TEC 51/4 floppy drives, Model FB501, mounted vertically > > Built in AC supply > > Rear panel has two 6 contact female DIN sockets and one 24 contact female > connection similar to a Centronics printer, only smaller. > > The construction is generally similar to that used on Apple ][ drive cases, > although I suspect this might have something to do with a PET. > > Can any one enlighten me? > > Regards > Charlie Fox >

26 years, 3 months

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new toy tandy 1000hx

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Anyone out there with suggestion or clues on this oddball? Tandy 25-1053 1000HX PC. Interesting 8088 non-isa monoboard with what appears to be mono video and integral keyboard. The PS is very small, less that 55W and the MB is mostly cmos save for the cpu and support chips. I'm trying to decide if I'll gut it for the powersupply and floppy or find a use for it. One limiting factor is it down't appear to have a serial port. If I can find a schematic I may try a hack I've considered. Putting a 8085+mmu in the 8088 socket (it's been done going the other way!) and changing the rom so I can run cpm-80. First chance I'll drop by Tandy... knowing them they may have the service manual for it. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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new toy tandy 1000hx

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 8/24/99 10:23:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allisonp(a)world.std.com writes: > Anyone out there with suggestion or clues on this oddball? > > Tandy 25-1053 1000HX PC. > > Interesting 8088 non-isa monoboard with what appears to be mono video > and integral keyboard. The PS is very small, less that 55W and the MB > is mostly cmos save for the cpu and support chips. > > I'm trying to decide if I'll gut it for the powersupply and floppy or > find a use for it. One limiting factor is it down't appear to have a > serial port. > > If I can find a schematic I may try a hack I've considered. Putting a > 8085+mmu in the 8088 socket (it's been done going the other way!) and > changing the rom so I can run cpm-80. > > First chance I'll drop by Tandy... knowing them they may have the service > manual for it. > > Allison that is that small apple //c looking pc clone? has dos2.1 in rom IIRC, and a bit nonstandard card slot(s). i think the 1000ex was similar... D.B. Young Team OS/2 -->this message printed on recycled disk space visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm

26 years, 3 months

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Help me identify this mysterious RAM card

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 8/24/99 11:04:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com writes: > I have this card made by "Memory Products and More". It's 8Mb, *looks* > like a PCMCIA card but says on the back, "Do not insert this card into > the PCMCIA card slot." It has 88 pins. Does anyone know what this might > go into? > > Thanks, that's most likely an ICDRAM card; some of the 360 and 75x series IBM thinkpads used those for memory expansion and some other mobile products as well. certainly not classic though. D.B. Young Team OS/2 -->this message printed on recycled disk space visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm

26 years, 3 months

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Help me identify this mysterious RAM card

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

I have this card made by "Memory Products and More". It's 8Mb, *looks* like a PCMCIA card but says on the back, "Do not insert this card into the PCMCIA card slot." It has 88 pins. Does anyone know what this might go into? Thanks, -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 3 months

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new toy tandy 1000hx

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<that is that small apple //c looking pc clone? has dos2.1 in rom IIRC, and <bit nonstandard card slot(s). i think the 1000ex was similar... Yep exactly, runs too. Can't say on the EX. The DOS in rom is a 16kb (27128) with dos command.com, driver, bios and an autoexec.bat as drive C:. Drive is 3.5" 720k and ram is a whopping 256k, and its full unless it will take a larger part. Rather curious beast. Allison

26 years, 3 months

1
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IBM part numbers

by mark_k＠iname.com

Hi, Is there a web site that, on entry of an IBM part number, returns what that thing is? I picked up an old (made in early '89 from date codes on the chips) IBM 8-bit ISA card the other day. It's half-length, and the only connector on the rear panel is a BNC. There are no jumpers on the card. Part number is 25F8545. Searching for the part number on the IBM web site didn't turn up anything. On Dejanews, one posting mentioned that part number. This card might be a "3270 emulator" apparently. Can anyone shed more light on this? What exactly is it? -- Mark

26 years, 3 months

3
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To be posted shortly - BIOS source code

by rcini＠msn.com

Hello, all: I just finished two projects for the PeeCee. I've finished scanning and correcting the source code for the original IBM PC and IBM PC/AT. Right out of the Tech Ref books. I haven't tried to re-compile the BIOS, but I'm reasonably certain that the files are free of spelling errors, having taken me months of on-and-off line by line editing. These will be posted to the secure portion of the site since IBM's wallet is much bigger than mine :-) These will be posted in the next day or so (since I left my Zip disk at work). I'm also going to post a copy of the VIC-20 Kernal ROM source code, as decompiled by yours truly, and as featured in a series of articles in the C=Hacking e-zine. This one recompiles fine. Enjoy. ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 3 months

2
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Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2)

by cdrmool＠interlog.com

I'm not suprised at the AR comments. My brother is a master craftsman. He restores antique furniture for a living and has done so for the Royal Ontario Museum. He has, on occasion, and for his own amusement, mad e copies of rare antique pieces and shown them to the experts, sometimes side by side with the originals. The experts are often wrong in chosing which is the copy. I wonder how long before fake old computers start to appear? I'm very proud of him in that he is totally self taught and that he would never profit from the fakes. colan ____________________________________________________________________ Vintage Computer Collectors List and Info: http://members.xoom.com/T3C Mail us at: T3C(a)xoommail.com -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com <Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:08 PM Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) > > > >> At 10:39 AM 8/22/99 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> >>>"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that >>>IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only >>>worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working >>>lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was >>>actually designed to do." >> >> I guess you don't watch the Antiques Roadshow very often. They routinely >> dash people's hopes by saying "Gee, if back in 1950 you hadn't refinished >> this 1820 chest of drawers, it would be worth $25,000. But now it's >> worth $250." >> >> It all comes down to each person's perception of value. And of course, >> the sale price is ultimately determined one buyer and one seller. >> >> - John >> >> P.S. For the non-USAians, "Antiques Roadshow" is a television program >> on the public television network. It travels from city to city, opening >> up a convention hall to the public to bring in their antiques for free >> appraisal by their teams of expert auctioneers and collectors. > > >We have a similar show in the UK, also called Antiques Roadshow. One of the few >TV shows I actually enjoy watching. Alas I was away when it came to Coalville, >so I couldn't take any classic computers to see how they reacted... > >I'm not sure of the accuracy of some of their comments though. Examples from >when my parents caught it at their town (and got on TV!): > >1. My mother took some WW2 propaganda posters. Was told they were almost >worthless. Later on, an official came up to her and said they wanted to film >the posters. So they went through the same rigmarole again. But on camera she >was told they were worth at least 100 pounds (I can't remember whether each or >for the set) > >2. My parents also invited them to look at some antique furniture in situ. One >writing desk they were particularly interested in, shipped it to the filming >venue, etc. They pointed out all the things to look for, and claimed that the >evidence proved it was original and had never been restored. My father forebore >to say that it had come back from the restorer's workshop only 2 months earlier >- and we'd all seen the state it was in before it went... > >(We think they must have lost a lot of footage that day. A lot of interesting >things they filmed weren't shown, and they filled up time with pointless >activities that had little bearing on the antiques...) > >Philip. > > > > > > >

26 years, 3 months

6
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2 FREE DEC Rainbow 100+'s in UK (forwarded)

by rhblake＠bigfoot.com

Found this on the Obsolete Computer Helpline....contact the author below in the UK, not me. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee davison <lee.davison(a)mercom.co.uk> Ludlow, Shropshire UK - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 17:21:38 FREE! Two (at least) DEC Rainbow 100+ machines, keyboards, mono monitors and any other DEC bits I have. AFAIK they both still work and have 10MB hard drives in them. The lucky recipient of these must either collect them or pay shipping. I'll keep them until the end of the month but after that they are scrap. They are heavy and fairly big and I need the room. Cheers, Lee.

26 years, 3 months

1
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New toy

by donm＠cts.com

Over the weekend, I acquired a new toy called an Intel Wildcard WC88. It consists of a card in 72 pin SIMM format - only taller - that contains a surface mount 8088 chip hiding under a glob of epoxy. Also carries an xtal, 640k memory, another - unidentified - chip under epoxy, a BIOS EPROM, and a few glue chips. The edge connector is 72 pin SIMM style. There is also a (basically) passive motherboard that carries a 72 pin SIMM socket, a keyboard connector, three 8-bit ISA sockets, and a handful of chips. The Award BIOS displays a message on bootup that 'this is a demonstration BIOS and is not to be sold'. I have searched the Web to no avail seeking any reference to this mini-XT. If anyone has one or has heard of one, or... I would certainly appreciate hearing from them. I have know idea what Intel intended when they put this thing together - for sale, demo, sales tool, ??? But I'd like to know. - don

26 years, 3 months

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Re. imsai 2 (OT)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Of course no program should ever intentionally use undefined opcodes, but <copy-protection systems often do in my experience. So it's useful if <emulators do the Right Thing with them. In the case of 8085 and z80 they were actually useful extensions and worth using. Those that came to depend on them kept spcing the part to have them and the vendors would make sure they were there. Allison

26 years, 3 months

2
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Heathkit Analog Computer info?

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Dave Dameron said: >Is this the one with 12AU7 (ECC82) twin triode amplifiers? (Or does the >EC-1 use them also?) I might have some partial schematics... >Cool. >-Dave In the manual I have each amplifier has a 12AX7 and a 6BQ7A twin triode plus a 6BH6. > What do you want for a copy of the Operations guide? The one I >have coming (the owner forgot to pack it) may or may not be complete. I'm sure we can work something out. I've being searching for a first born child (boy or girl) for a completely unrelated hobby. OR you could just keep me up to date on your music experiments. Keep in mind that this Operations Manual has theory but no example programs. It's the EC-1 Operations Manual that has the example programs. A good source for magazine articles on analog computers is the American Journal of Physics. Including one article on replacing the Heath ES-201 amplifiers with 741 op-amps. They have a searchable index on the web. And I found the issues at the S.F. Public Library (other libraries may differ). Other magazine called "Simulation" in their Febuary 1997 issue had an article on simulating an analog computer in Excel. Which looks like a great way to "single step" your program before moving to the computer. (See Windows does have a use) :) > My 'real world' use for this machine is to participate in the >production of what might be termed "chaos music", and other sounds >that could be produced when the output of the computer is applied to >the inputs of an analog synthesiser. Speaking of computer music generated by old machines, if you don't already have a copy, I recommend "Music by Computer", John Wiley and Sons, 1969, 139 pages. This book was started from papers submitted to the "Computers in Music" session at the 1966 Fall Joint Computer Conference in San Francisco. In a pocket in the back cover is four 7" floppy records with a total of 8 sides, containing examples of computer generated music and sounds samples to accompany each paper. > To those who asked for pictures.. as soon as I have time I will >put up a few, as well as some print advertising for it and an >article in a Popular Electronics I found describing it. I don't think I've seen this article. (hint) :) Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

26 years, 3 months

1
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Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet)

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:40:31 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> writes: < Bunch of stuff SNIPped > >The other troublesome comment was about the recyclers: "That's pretty >much what my local scrapper does . [tomb raiding for gold]. . .". Now these Yeah, that's what I said, and it's based on my experiences with a local party. I bring him a pile of stuff culled from his various heaps, and the question is "Let's how much gold you got there". That's all it boils down to, because that's how he chooses to operate his business. I've tried to impress upon him that this stuff is worth more alive than dead, but he is slow to understand. I made this statement because it parallels the 'treasure hunter' mentality towards archeological digs during the early part of the last century. "How much gold we got?". Alot of history got melted as a result. But I'm tired of talking about this. The good people know who they are, and everyone else seems to know who they are. The assholes tend to remain clueless, but we can usually work around them (or at least pick up the pieces after the fact, which is what I do). Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

2
1
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Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > some recognizable names (D0, D1, FG, H-HI...) and at least one with a > > mysterous name (OP)... > > AFAIK, pin 16 on a standard floppy is the MOTOR ON signal... > Silly suggestion. Have you tried linking pin 16 on the drive to the drive > select line (pin 14 most likely). Leave the drive select wire connected > there as well. So that the motor goes on whenever the drive is selected. I have not tried jumpering any pins together among other reasons because on my Amiga schematics, pin 16 is driven by a discrete transistor rather than directly off of a Gary pin (custom chip used in Amiga floppy controller). > Alternatively, what about using whatever pin on the DB25 corresponds to pin > 10. That's what becomes pin 16 after the IBM-twist, and thus is the > motor-on signal for the second drive. That's probably the more likely > setup, actually. According to my records... 2 - chng 4 - inuse 1 6 - inuse 0 8 - index 10 - sel 0 12 - sel 1 14 - inuse 1 (yes, it's tied to pin 4 on the schematic) 16 - mtron 18 - dir 20 - step etc... Do I have this wrong? -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 3 months

2
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New Document on Highgate's pdp-8 Web Site

by mranalog＠home.com

Kevin McQuiggin said: > Hi Gang: > The most recent addition to http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 is the Small > Computer Handbook, 1966 edition, sections 1 and 2. > These were contributed by Doug Coward. You can reach Doug at the highgate > web site. > Further contributions of pdp-8 material welcome, I just wanted to add: Thank you Kevin, for taking this material under your wing. And to everyone else, this DEC handbook states the following on the rear cover: "This first edition of the DIGITAL Small Computer Handbook is designed to be a sourcebook of basic computer technology for the computer user and student. In addition to detailed material on computer fundamentals and programming examples, this book includes three user handbooks covering Digital's popular Family of Eight scientific/engineering computers - the PDP-8, LINC-8, and the new PDP-8/s." "sections 1 and 2" consist of the "computer fundamentals" section and the PDP-8/s section. Currently this is a 69MB file of 300 dpi scans. This is the first time that I have scanned any documents of this size for anyone besides myself, and I'm hoping to find out if these scans are convertable to a more manageable format or if I need to make some adjustments, before begining on the last two sections (PDP-8 and LINC-8) which make up 2/3 of the handbook. And in the process, I want to learn the process of converting scans to a smaller format (without starting an argument) because I also have about 590 pages of COSMAC/ELF docs scanned and ready to convert in addition to a few other that are in progress. Maybe one of these days I'll even get around to scanning some analog computer docs. :) Regards, --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 3 months

1
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Braille terminal

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

> > I put a few digital camera photos of a old braille terminal (Feb > > 1977 vintage) in a directory at http://www.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/braille > > Thanks. I was kind of curious what the output side of the thing > looked like. I was expecting something like a fixed part-of-line > Braille display, but I guess paper would work better. What's it got, > a moving embossing head of some sort? Now that I've recharged my batteries, i've put two more photos in that directory, with closeup shots of the printing mechanism. No, there is no moving head which a blind person wouldnt be able to see moving. The 'paper' is very tough, almost identical to IBM punch cards. And as you see in the photo there are rows of holes, that have some sort of rod that pops up from behind to punch a raised round dot into the paper/cardboard sheets. I'm sot sure what will happen with this terminal. I hear we have to contact the Navy to see if they want it back, since it was originally purchased by them. After that, I guess its destined to be scrapped. Oh, does anyone know what these three chips are: 93419-DC F 8002 -------- ~/011 ~ should be double wavy lines MM5303N -------- sn74186N (three of these are on the board -Lawrence LeMay > > > I'm not quite sure what to do with this unit. There probably werent many > > braille terminals made in the 70's, and like most things, they probably > > were disposed of when they became obsolete. Maybe this should be donated > > to a computer museum. > > There were other widgets in the 1980s, I seem to remember a > description of a screen-scraper with Braille output that could be > fitted to an Apple ][. > > I guess they are obsolete. Until recently I was working with a blind > programmer/manager, and I was somewhere on her call-for-help list when > her PC misbehaved. When it wasn't misbehaving, she had screen-reader > software (something called JAWS from Henter-Joyce) that let her do > what she needed to do reasonably comfortably under WinNT. It worked > well enough for her to use Outlook and MS Word; I never saw her trying > to use a web browser so I don't know how well it worked with that. > > I'm trying to synch up with her for dinner, and if you like I'll try > to find out what she knows about this sort of thing. Don't know if > she's ever used one, though; she has talked about using what I > gathered were unmodified Silent 700s and I still haven't figured out > how that worked if/when she got unexpected output. > > -Frank McConnell >

26 years, 3 months

2
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Re. imsai 2 (OT)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Then the high order half of X would be $FF. Not sure if thta happens on <other versions of the 6809. Then there are all the undocumented opcodes o <the 6502 ... 8080, 8085, z80, z180, z280 and others also have undefined or irregular opcodes that are either unsupported or unofficially supported (all versions have them but they may not ;-)). The 8085 and z80 ones are most unique as I know of no version that doesn't support them and it's across vendors (even those that dont swap masks!). So It' surprizes me none at all to see that in moto chips or any other. A few emulators like MYZ80 do infact support all the z80 ops faithfully but thats an example of a well tested package and a stable set of opcodes. The 6502(and cmos versions) are legions for odd and spotty opcodes off the basic set. I know the 6800 family vary some as do the 6809. It's my understanding it was years before the 68000 instruction set was stable. Emulators, useful, interesting but NOT the real thing. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101

by allisonp＠world.std.com

This is pinouts for most 5.25 and 3.5" floppies that have 1 or 4 selects (excluded most current 3.5" that use twist cable select). NC(speedsel in 1.2mb) < 2 - chng nc(hd load) < 4 - inuse 1 drive sel3 < 6 - inuse 0 < 8 - index <10 - sel 0 <12 - sel 1 drive sel2 <14 - inuse 1 (yes, it's tied to pin 4 on <16 - mtron <18 - dir <20 - step writedata 22 wrtgate 24 track00 26 write pro 28 head sel 32 disk change 34

26 years, 3 months

1
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Heathkit Analog Computer info?

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

John Lawson said" > I have just 'taken delivery' of a big Heathkit Analog Computer.. >not the small EC-1.. the big 15 opamp job. > The docs that are with it are just the operaor's guide. I >therefore will begin a search for the assembly manual and possibly >any theory of operation manuals, circuit diagrams, program set-ups, etc. > I think these are not too plentiful, but I will perform due >diligence and see if Heath can be of any help. Many times they still >have old manuals around and will copy them (for a fee). > In the meantime, if anyone on The List has any info pertaining to >this computer, it would help me get it back on the air. John, I can't tell if this question has been answered since midnight, so I'll just recount my experience with Heathkit Analog Computer manuals. When you call the Heathkit Manual Replacement Service you need to have the model number of the kit you want a manual for. And the Heathkit Analog Computer, like some of their more complicated kits, is actually maded up of a number of different kits. Below I'll list the kits that I know of and a price if I have already purchased that assembly manual myself. ES-400 $25 Cabinet and Front Panel, 56 pages X ES-2 $25 Amplifier Power Supply, 24 pages X ES-50 $20 Reference Power Supply, 16 pages ES-100 $25 Initial Condition Power Supply, 12 pages X ES-151 $20 Relay Power Supply ES-201 $25 DC Amplifier, 16 pages ES-401 Voltage Regulator Transformer ES-405 Patch Cords, They don't have a manual for this. ES-447 Coefficient Potentiometer ES-450 Auxiliary Coefficient Potentiometer ES-505 Repetitive Oscillator ES-600 Function Generator, a stand alone accessary. I assume it is meant to generate functions like sine,cosine, and log. Again, the ones with prices I have. The ones without I have not checked on yet. And the ones with Xs, they had extra originals, so they sent me an original. They have lost their copy of the Operations Manual. I finally found a copy in Switerland. :) > Finally... a computer that glows in the dark... 2 K3WL D00DZ!!! I know how you feel :) On a separate analog computer type note, I made a real exciting find a few weeks back. The S.F. Bay Area guys have already heard this. ======== Paste from old mail ============== Last week I was thumbing through "High-Speed Computing Devices", Engineering Research Associates, McGraw-Hill, 1950. This is the book that describes the state-of-the-art in 1950 and it discusses most of the one of a kind computers up until then. (It also has a large section on analog computers). Anyway, I was looking through the references section at the end of the the chapter on analog computers, when I noticed that Vannevar Bush had published most of his early articles in the Journal of the Franklin Institute. So I decided to see what would come up if I did a BookFinders.com search for the Journal of the Franklin Institute. I found: Bush, Vannevar "THE DIFFERENTIAL ANALYZER. A NEW MACHINE FOR SOLVING DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS." Contained in the Journal of the Franklin Institute, Volume 212, No. 4, October,1931, pp. 447-88. The complete Volume 212, octavo, attractively rebound full navy morocco. US$1500.00 Too expensive!!!! According to the references, the first article by Bush in this journal was in 1927 Volume 203. "Bush,V., F.D. Gage, and H.R. Stewart, A Continuous Integraph, Journal of the Franklin Institute, Vol.203, pp.63-84 (1927)" This is 2 years after he started work on the Integraph and 3 years before the Product Integraph is credited as being operational. So then I found on BookFinders: MCCLENAHAN, HOWARD: JOURNAL OF THE FRANKLIN INSTITUTE DEVOTED TO SCIENCE AND THE MECHANIC ARTS ; PHILADELPHIA: THE INSTITUTE, 1927. G, XLIB VOL. 203 USD25.00 I took the chance that this was not just a single issue. And it's not!! It arrived today, a hard bound copy of Volume 203 Jan-June 1927. And the article has 6 pictures and some diagrams. ======== End paste ============== (Vannevar Bush is considered the father of the electronic analog computer) --Doug =================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr Software Engineer mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Visit the new Analog Computer Museum and History Center at http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ===================================================

26 years, 3 months

2
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Re. imsai 2 (OT)

by max82＠surfree.com

>I thought that that was exactly what I was parodying. I guess >I didn't make that clear. I generally enjoy Antiques Roadshow, >but those particular spots really annoy me. In my opinion, the >original craftsman (the maker of the piece) would probably drop >over dead if presented with his work in "ideal collectable" >condition. Either that or he would immediately attack it with >sandpaper and mineral spirits. In general, what is the meaning of an antique? In many cases, it is exactly something that is old. However in the case of a computer, I think that an exact copy is perfectly valid. We are trying to preserve computer history, and computer technology, not old plastic, after all. What should concern people (IMHO) is the particular arrangement of keys on the keyboard, or gates on a CPU, or whatever, i.e. functional characteristics.

26 years, 3 months

4
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Re. imsai 2 (OT)

by max82＠surfree.com

>Which would you prefer? A modern day clone of Stalin, or Stalin >himself? OK, enough with the communist shit. Bill Clinton is most certainly better than Stalin, BTW ;)

26 years, 3 months

2
1
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CP/M 86

by musicman38＠mindspring.com

Interesting CP/M 86 for the old IBM on eBay.. I really wanted this but it has gone way past my budget. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=147842873 So I was wondering if anyone had a copy of it or knew where I could get a copy of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC.. I will gladly send the disks, and a self addressed envelope if anyone could help.. Phil...

26 years, 3 months

1
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CP/M 86

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> So I was wondering if anyone had a copy of it or knew where I could get a > copy > of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC.. http://cpm.interfun.net/ Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

26 years, 3 months

1
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Re. imsai 2 (OT)

by max82＠surfree.com

>Interesting point. From a logical standpoint, an emulator can be just as >much the original machine as the original itself. However, I think the No, it can't, because the software might use a different algorithm for emulating than the machine actually used. And of course, the interface logic isn't emulated. What I mean is that if we wish to preserve machines for study, then a copy is acceptable. Of course, there is that human element to which you refer, but I'd rather have a copy than nothing at all.

26 years, 3 months

4
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Re. imsai 2 (OT)

by edick＠idcomm.com

What you've said here is EXACTLY the difference between "Antique Collectors" and various sorts of hobbyists. As was pointed out earlier, the IMSAI Front Panel, in its mint, therefore non working, condition is MUCH more desirable and hence valuable to the "collector" than the one, working perfectly with well-thought-out well-documented modifications to make it compatible with the environment for which it was purportedly intended. That means that the antique collector has different reasons for wanting, hence, obtaining and keeping, artifacts from the past. For Antique Computer afficionados, that means that those items which serve best, in this case, to "connect us to the past" by virtue of emulation, or by simple repair/modification in the interest of "making it work" are of little interest to the collector. He want the "real McCoy" as it was minted, not working and "alive" as it should have been. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Re. imsai 2 (OT) >On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >> In general, what is the meaning of an antique? In many cases, it is exactly >> something that is old. However in the case of a computer, I think that an >> exact copy is perfectly valid. We are trying to preserve computer history, >> and computer technology, not old plastic, after all. What should concern >> people (IMHO) is the particular arrangement of keys on the keyboard, or >> gates on a CPU, or whatever, i.e. functional characteristics. > >Interesting point. From a logical standpoint, an emulator can be just as >much the original machine as the original itself. However, I think the >psychological impact of an "antique" is that it has passed through many >hands before it arrived in yours, and the personal history that each >individual machine possess is what is desired. It connects us to the >past. Something peculiarly human. > >Also, humans are creatures that desire tangibility. We want to see the >machine, feel it, look inside it, experience the sights and smells as it >fires up, marvel at its elegance (or lack thereof), tinker with it in >three dimensions, point it out to people as a source of pride. You can't >do that with an emulator. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] >

26 years, 3 months

1
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Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>That would be this October, if you believe the scheduled shipping date >for the new Imsai computers. "New-old" IMSAI boxes were shipped through the mid-80's under several different names (there were Cromemco-branded IMSAI's, in particular). So classifying them as "old" or "new" isn't necessarily the simplest thing in the world! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

1
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BA-11 Power Supply Schematic/Repair Help

by steve.lubbers＠barco.com

I got a 4 dual slot qbus logic box. It's a little desktop unit. The power supply is not functioning. There are two connectors on the rear of the chassis. One goes to the processor reset, the second goes into the power supply. Is something required in the power supply connector to make things work, or do I have a blown supply? Does anyone have schematics for this supply? (The chassis is marked oba11-va) Steve

26 years, 3 months

2
1
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DEC Rainbow

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

Hi. I just acquired a Rainbow (haven't seen it yet, so I don't know many specifics) but it has a color monitor and the guy said he also had a touchscreen attachment for it. Anybody have pointers to where I can find out a little more about this beast? The guy I'm getting it from told me it was working the last time he used it, so I should be a happy camper in a couple of days. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

26 years, 3 months

4
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Re. imsai 2

by bill＠chipware.com

> > I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it > > for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have an > > "antique computer" eposode. > > Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last year > that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone locally here > told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late for fear, > move straight on ahead to loathing. Oh! I can't wait... "Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was actually designed to do."

26 years, 3 months

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New Document on Highgate's pdp-8 Web Site

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi Gang: The most recent addition to http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 is the Small Computer Handbook, 1966 edition, sections 1 and 2. These were contributed by Doug Coward. You can reach Doug at the highgate web site. Further contributions of pdp-8 material welcome, Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

26 years, 3 months

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RX02 Repair

by steve.lubbers＠barco.com

I've been trying to bring my old RX02 drive back to life, with little success. I just received a good bootable floppy, and get the same results as with all my old disks, so now I'm looking for hardware problems. On a PDP-11/03, With RXV21 controller, and an RX02 drive, the RX02 initializes, attempts to read the boot block, and crashes to ODT at 000600. > In examining what my system reads as it attempts to boot, it looks like I > read every other 128 byte chunk correctly. I haven't figured out a pattern > to the corrupt sections. Does anyone have any RX02 diagnostics, or hardware trouble shooting tips? Steve

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Well, as I've said before, there are transformer kits available in the <UK. THey cost a little more than a normal transformer of that power <rating, and consist of a former with the primary windings pre-wound, and <a pile of laminations. You get to supply the secondary wire, and wind it on As someone that has wound audio and power transformers from scratch it's a pretty trivial task and can be very useful. Used to be a time the ARRL (USA) Handbook for Radio Amateurs had all the tables. Though given a random core it's pretty easy work all the numbers out after finding out if it's big enough. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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Re. imsai 2 (OT)

by max82＠surfree.com

>Well, actually it's not. A copy might not be made of the same materials >that the original was made of. It might have different components Well, then it's not really what I was thinking of as a copy. Again, minor variations are possible, but if it no longer works the same way (e.g. if it has a pentium running an emulator inside), of course I wouldn't accept it as a copy. What I'm trying to say is basically that copies are not really such awful things as you make them sound...

26 years, 3 months

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Compaq 386 luggable (but just)

by cdrmool＠interlog.com

Anyone able to direct me to a copy of the display driver and/or diagnostic setup disk(s) for this thing I just found ? Would be much appreciated. TIA colan ____________________________________________________________________ Vintage Computer Collectors List and Info: http://members.xoom.com/T3C Mail us at: T3C(a)xoommail.com

26 years, 3 months

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Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> At 10:39 AM 8/22/99 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> >>"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that >>IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only >>worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working >>lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was >>actually designed to do." > > I guess you don't watch the Antiques Roadshow very often. They routinely > dash people's hopes by saying "Gee, if back in 1950 you hadn't refinished > this 1820 chest of drawers, it would be worth $25,000. But now it's > worth $250." > > It all comes down to each person's perception of value. And of course, > the sale price is ultimately determined one buyer and one seller. > > - John > > P.S. For the non-USAians, "Antiques Roadshow" is a television program > on the public television network. It travels from city to city, opening > up a convention hall to the public to bring in their antiques for free > appraisal by their teams of expert auctioneers and collectors. We have a similar show in the UK, also called Antiques Roadshow. One of the few TV shows I actually enjoy watching. Alas I was away when it came to Coalville, so I couldn't take any classic computers to see how they reacted... I'm not sure of the accuracy of some of their comments though. Examples from when my parents caught it at their town (and got on TV!): 1. My mother took some WW2 propaganda posters. Was told they were almost worthless. Later on, an official came up to her and said they wanted to film the posters. So they went through the same rigmarole again. But on camera she was told they were worth at least 100 pounds (I can't remember whether each or for the set) 2. My parents also invited them to look at some antique furniture in situ. One writing desk they were particularly interested in, shipped it to the filming venue, etc. They pointed out all the things to look for, and claimed that the evidence proved it was original and had never been restored. My father forebore to say that it had come back from the restorer's workshop only 2 months earlier - and we'd all seen the state it was in before it went... (We think they must have lost a lot of footage that day. A lot of interesting things they filmed weren't shown, and they filled up time with pointless activities that had little bearing on the antiques...) Philip.

26 years, 3 months

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Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Since the quote is from my post why not step away from ad hominin <> commentary. < <If you wish to be singled out, then fine. There are many on this list <with the same attitude, so it more or less applies to lots of people. The <attitude is one of elitism (sp?) - that our little circle of collectors <is far and away the best place for all of our machines, and that if you <are not in the circle, you are trash not worth of even the most common box I prefer to speak for myself only. If I resemble that, then there is a great misunderstanding. If anything I've passed on a great deal of material usually free or at prices so low as to reflect a disregard profit. But hey at least were talking about it. <Put yourself if the shoes of some guy from zdnet or Dell - that quote <is basically a direct slam against how well corporate institutions treat <historical artifacts. Dell and zdnet happened to be be "in the wrong <place at the wrong time" - and their names were dragged around a bit. Since the conversation was in the context of their seeking I can see possible confusion. No direct slams were intended, however they were misconstrued. Maybe because I have a realistic attitude about business. Even business do things they don't like or wish to do. <It seems that the DEC U.S. collection turned TC"M" is just about the only <massive failure, and even then, DEC wins back a lot of points for the DEC <Australia collection (now under independent control). Look at some of the <successes - Westinghouse, Motorola, IBM (for a time). There are many more <smaller ones, too - U.S. Robotics even had a very small exhibit (they <still do, even after the 3com buyout). Most of these corporate museums <are SERIOUS about what they do, and frankly, put us to shame when it <comes to how well they treat their holdings (how many of us keep out <goodies in climate controlled rooms, stored or displayed with dignity, <completely cataloged for researchers, handled with cotton gloves, and <restored and operated according to all of the rules of thumb for museums?) This is a good thing. No, few of us do the kid gloves. Likely I offend many because I actually run them, use them and occasionally modify them. <The problem is that some of those "what if"s tend to be rather <offensively written, often using blanket statements that immediately put <people in a defensive position. Nobody likes that. Yep, somethimes they also have to look at the concern and understand it even if poorly written. For example one my worries is what happens if the company falls on hard times, collections have costs like storage or people and if a company falls on hard times...could that be the first to go? Have they provided for continuence? The successes exist to say that it does happen. But, I ask what outside influences were ther to make this happen. <No, I have never heard you lash out at the scrappers, but many others <have (that is why the original post was split up - same concept from two <different people). There have been a great number of posts badmouthing <the scrappers in the past, and yesterday, another one came up. Scrappers is business. In the past I've used them to get metal stock and the like for bargan prices compared to dealers. Still that does mean pay a fair price. Like the guy with the smashed radio I had to learn what that means, however my father was one to mediate my stupdity then so WE the scrapper and I both got what we wanted. I know. <And, no, scrappers can make a lot of money off of the gold. The average <desktop PeeCee contains 2 to 9 dollars worth at today's price. Obviously, <the big systems are the cash cows. There is value, for effort and work. Like anything they are diamonds in the rough and recycling the materials is a necessary thing. <Now here we go again. Calling this imaginary person a "dope" is really <bad form. Does he deserve to be called a "dope", simply because he is <working 55 hours a week, and his boss tells him to get rid of the old No excuse both ways. However waste is a general thing. In this day of recycling maybe it fits. <system because they need the floorspace (and sometimes power)? I have <been in this situation many times, working in computer rooms around the <country. I did not have a few hours to devote to trying to find equipment <good homes, even if it was on my own time. Pretty much the best one can <do is put out a post to the list or the newsgroups, and hope someone can <fit _into_ the schedule. Ah, but you did! There is lies the difference. <I figured that word would come up. No, you can say whatever you like to <others, individual or corporate. Just be sure you know what the <consequences are, and that they may effect you, a group, or the whole <collecting scene as a whole. I, for one, think that being group labelled an <"elitist whiner" is not a good thing. "Respectable collector" sounds much <nicer, but I think the former label is what we are headed towards due to <the attitudes of many on this list. Well oh, I see. I'm very uncomfortable with that whole presentation. Maybe you need to reread and think what you have said over as well with consideration of your own views. From the otherside of the glass it sounds no better. I'd think I fit neither. I'm a used hardware user. Very little of what I've gathered is "collection" much of it is my old stuff that is sentimental more than historically important. Then again maybe why they are historically important. Museums and collectors are apparently the other guy. Like I've said before, much of what I have is satisfying a wish to run and tinker with systems I could never afford when new. Different mindset I'd guess. One additional point. Museums of my past were sterile plases where don't touch was the operating word, glass cases, rails to keep distance. I understand why. However, this is emotional so stay with me, computers especially old ones through the early 70s were always behind the glass. Many people were held at bay by the resulting priesthood and classism that resulted. Only the privileged got to touch or run them. Keeping (making?) the older ones touchable is an important task that coperate sponsers may or may not understand. Just a thought. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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Heathkit Analog Computer info?

by jpl15＠netcom.com

I have just 'taken delivery' of a big Heathkit Analog Computer.. not the small EC-1.. the big 15 opamp job. The docs that are with it are just the operaor's guide. I therefore will begin a search for the assembly manual and possibly any theory of operation manuals, circuit diagrams, program set-ups, etc. I think these are not too plentiful, but I will perform due diligence and see if Heath can be of any help. Many times they still have old manuals around and will copy them (for a fee). In the meantime, if anyone on The List has any info pertaining to this computer, it would help me get it back on the air. Finally... a computer that glows in the dark... 2 K3WL D00DZ!!! Cheers John

26 years, 3 months

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Success w/RT-11 and TCP/IP

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/60dfe3fe/at…

26 years, 3 months

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RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

OK, it looks like I figured out why I've not been able to get the RX50's on my PDP-11/73 working, dead RQDX3. Of course it's my only one that can handle RX33's, thankfully I'm more interested in RX50's. Anyway, I've got a problem, and part of it might be what a mutant beast this system is. If I have DU7: set to one of the drives on the RX50 the system crashes after 1 minute (I actually timed this, and it was so close to 1 minute it was disturbing). I've not tried any other combo's of setting the RX50 in the system, but don't see why that would matter. The thing really wierd about this system, and one of the main reasons I call it a mutant beast is the following: Controller CSR Vector Purpose Viking QDT 172150 154 Both Hard Drives are on this board WQESD 160334 150 Bootstrap (that's all it does) RQDX3 160354 144 RX50 DU0: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT=0 (Boot Disk) DU1: is set UNIT=1, PART=0, PORT=0 (Backup Boot Disk) DU2: is set UNIT=0, PART=1, PORT=0 DU3: is set UNIT=0, PART=2, PORT=0 DU4: is set UNIT=1, PART=1, PORT=0 DU5: is set UNIT=1, PART=2, PORT=0 DU6: is set UNIT=0, PART=3, PORT=0 DU7: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT=2 After one minute, I get the following: . 134606 @ I think it's always at 134606, but the minds a little fuzzy at the moment, I'm working on this while working on problems at work, and it's just a little late. Anyone have any ideas? My plan is to normally have DU7: set to PART=3 of UNIT=1, and only switch it to the RX50 when I need to use a floppy drive. In the mean time, I think I'll have to give that Codar clock a try. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 3 months

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grad student looking for old but working VMS system

by macierno＠cvm.msstate.edu

grad student looking for old but working VMS system - (read - inexpensive) If anyone can point me in the direction of a microvax or VAXStation please let me know........... thanks..... mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2

26 years, 3 months

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Braille terminal

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

I put a few digital camera photos of a old braille terminal (Feb 1977 vintage) in a directory at http://www.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/braille These are 1280x960 jpg images, not at the highest image quality setting for the camera. Most of the photos are of the interior of the unit, ie, the power supply and the card cage. The card cage is made of wood. I'm not quite sure what to do with this unit. There probably werent many braille terminals made in the 70's, and like most things, they probably were disposed of when they became obsolete. Maybe this should be donated to a computer museum. Of course, I wrote down some chip numbers and such, and promptly lost the sheet of paper I wrote it down on.. I think it was made by Triformation Systems Inc. Model LED-120. The grey socketed chip was a F 8003 or was that 8002? The 3 chips with white stickers on them are the same chip number, probably some sort of prom. The large black chip, possibly a cpu of some sort, i forget the number exactly.. Trying to read it from the photo, it looks like 6503N, from i think national semiconductor (it has a dual ~ followed by a / as some sort of identifiying symbol). Well, hopefull someone is interested in seeing this. -Lawrence LeMay lemay(a)cs.umn.edu

26 years, 3 months

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RQDX3 - Problem Solved.

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Well, Thanks to an idea that the RT-11 "Software Support Manual" gave me, it looks like I solved my problem. I copied the DU device handler to DA, and set the CSR's and Vectors such that DU is the Viking, and DA is the RQDX3. It has now been 30 minutes since I looked at the floppy sitting in the RX50 and the system hasn't crashed. This has the added benifit of allowing me to have DU0-DU7 for the Hard Drive partitions and DA0 & DA1 for the floppies. Cool, can't decide if I want to takle adding in some Serial Ports, or work on getting the DEC Pro380 up and running. I highly recommend working on Classic Computer projects as a method of staying awake, nice to be using them to stay awake instead of loosing sleep because of them :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 3 months

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BIOS Source Code!

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

I've been cleaning up and found a DOS 3.3 disk with a copy of my Cromemco BIOS source code, including the Turbo PASCAL disk formatter! (Talks to a Cromemco 16FDC) Enjoy, the page with the link is here: http://www.home.mcmanis.com/~cmcmanis/ --Chuck

26 years, 3 months

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Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> <There seem to be some foolish people on this list, judging from two of <today's posts. Kai made some great points a while back in his rant, so I No it was just a rant. While the MITS box is collectable and interesting in many ways my comments about it were somehow extended to the IMSAI and those trying to manufacture it again. Fools, you say, victims of partial reading I say. <will not repeat them, but I would like to add one - that of "public <relations". The two awful posts in question show that there is a problem <brewing. yes and right here in river city... <The two posts were basically concerned with dealing with those people <outside of this list. The first post was about the zdnet Altair possibly <going into "corperate hands and from there it can be lost, damaged, ...". Since the quote is from my post why not step away from ad hominin commentary. Since reading out of presented contects is going on... First: I worry that material will be lost. Never did I say dell was a bad guy, they may be offended themseleves by other bad guys actions. <It seems this person (along with quite a few others) does not think too This person has a name! Disagreement is acceptable and discussion over it as well but sidewise swipes are not. <highly of corporate institutions, even though quite a few have established <(or at least made an honest effort) museums and protection for their <historic holdings. In places where politics plays serious games - Yes and yes, some very good, some are failures. DEC made an effort with what lead up to TCM is Boston... what happend after DEC stopped funding them is where matters apprently went awry. We should ask why. <listen in on this list. I know for a fact that some of the higher echelon, <including the President, of ANS (my former employer) were quite interested <in the fates of some of the old NSFnet gear. If I had made some less than <friendly remarks about ANS to this list (or anywhere public, really), I <think the supply of old networking goodies that RCS was being given would <have dried up in an instant. Now I do not know what kind of corporate <support VCF gets, if any, but it could go away instantly as well, with <just a few short posts. Of course, with all of the Microsoft and IBM <bashing that goes on here, it would be a miracle if any support ever came <from that pair ever again. While there is the sound of truth in this I think this is a gross over reaction. While your comments on political care are warrented, that does not override someone elses personal opinion or concerns. The latter be more important. No one was accused of doing anything bad, only concerns of "what if". <what my local scrapper does . [tomb raiding for gold]. . .". Now these Interesting juxtapostion of two comments from two people that see things differently. My Tomb raiders was NOT aimed at scrappers, I doubt they make much of the gold fingers and the aluminum. I was aiming at the those that break up rare systems for pure cash and little care of historical value. FYI: those that collect and trade for cash value are not hostile to collecting. People rarely toss out something that has value. So to me while a $40,000 Apple 1 is totally out of reach, it may convince someone that the poly-88 in their basement is better served as collectors fodder rather than the bottom of the trash bin. <himself. Now if you go into a scrapyard screaming "bloody murderer", you <can bet that the PDP-8/e you have been eyeing will be loaded into the <Taiwan bound container first, probably on its face. Once again, just for <spite. No doubt true. the scrapper is doing a job, the dope that dropped it there is the one that deserves the slap. But then again business has priorities. Where we can help is to make it easy, maybe even a small value to those that might otherwise scrap systems. <Yes, this is politics. Just remember that its a good idea to have friends <in high places. Having enemies up there does no good to anyone, but with <a little responsibility, is easily avoided. True, however your comments sound much like censorship. People don't like that and most companies do not either. Now, the original topic. DEll has gotten a few hits on their page from me over the last day or so, while it's unlikely I'd buy a new PC from them or anyone else for varied reasons none relecting on their products, it was and informational visit. Besides, I happen to like dell, I have three of their older 386/486 machines. One of which was salvaged from the trash completely functional. Full circle, eh! Allison

26 years, 3 months

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