/Rant mode='ON'/ Having been in (and peripherally associated with) the 'Surplus Business' for many years... I can assure you that it is a small and clannish group of folks... one of the refreshingly more "small world all of it's own" type businesses. The folks who make really good livings from the Refuse of Technology many times operate on handshakes and reputations, and I assure The List that if you can be percieved as a good customer and a help to that person... by pointing out the 'pearls' in the stream, then in many cases you, too, can have access to the back rooms and hidden warehouses that exist all over the country. A businees is supposed to make money. Curently a big IBM 370/XX installation might be worth anywhere from $3-5K in recovery (read 'Gold').. minus the costs involved of transportation and processing. Can you offer more than that? Can you broker the system to someone who will preserve it.. and make everyone money along the way? Can you show the surplus dealer how to make more money for less work? And are you just someone who shows up regularly and buys stuff now and then... and maybe offers some good conversation once in a while...? All of this goes toward setting up a relationship with a palce (or places). My first surplus job was over 30 years ago, and it evolved from customer to part-time employee. My point is that most 'scrappers' are making their living doing it and *do not* harbor dark secret animosities toward old gear. But they tend to be busy, independent people who do not suffer fools gladly. Anecdote: A friend years ago had such a relationship with a scrapyard here in SoCal. One day a pice of choice military radio gear appeared that my friend coveted. He brought the Dealer out into the yard to do a little Dealing. Now, both of them knew that the radio was worth about $250, and of course both knew that it had not cost that much. Since the Dealer regarded my friend as a somewhat 'good' customer, he said "Make me an offer." My smart-ass friend thought he had the Surplus Business wired, and offered $25. The Dealer said "Yeah, wait here.." and went off, ostensibly to get a handtruck. When he returned, he also had a five-pound sledgehammer, and he proceeded to beat the radio into crinkly little bits while friend watched aghast. When he was done, the Dealer said "Sold!" My friend at least had the class to buy the remains, and last I saw him, still had it in a corner of his workshop in a box... just to remind him the next time he set out insult someone's intelligence. So quit whining about scrappers scrapping and get out there and save some Classics from those 40-foot containers bound for Taiwan. God knows I loaded enough of them myself. But now I go and sin no more.... /rant mode='OFF'/ Cheers John

At 10:09 PM 08/21/1999 -0700, Sellam wrote: Perhaps true, but not unusual in the business from my experience, (keeping in mind that my travils have centered around the NorthWest) although the sledge hammer approach might be a bit extreme. Case in point: a local surplus dealer (now retired) whom I dealt with for many years and considered a bit of a friend, while he often let me in on 'deals' on items he knew I might be interested in, we would just as often absolutely refuse to budge on a price for an item that I considered totally outrageous, and that I suspect that he knew he would probably never see paid. Over the years we had some rather animated discussions, (probably described as arguments by people less familar with his methods of dealing) which I still fondly remember as quite entertaining/amusing/frustrating/etc... Sadly, in most cases nothing short of a simultaneous act of God and both houses of Congress would ever persuade him to change his mind, and eventually you would find the item in pieces scattered around the store. But you know, once you got to know him you also found out that it was nearly impossible to 'insult' him with an offer, and on occasion you might even get a surprise as long as the item in question did not have a price tag. Once that hit, it was cast in stone! He also had regular (quarterly I think) half-price sales, but the usual buzz amoung the 'regulars' in the weeks preceeding a sale would be the speculation (more often than not, correct) on what items would suddenly go AWOL during the sale, only to reappear again the week after. Once, not too long before his retirement I finally just asked him why he operated like this. The answer was as direct as it was annoying. He had (and implied that this existed throughout all 'serious' surplus dealers) a list not unlike a automotive 'blue book' detailing easily resold components and their values. After some 30+ years in the surplus business (he must have been successful at it, as his store was only ever open three days a week) he knew 'on sight' what components were available from almost any item, and from that it was assigned a value. From there, assuming that the item could be obtained for the (considered) nominal 5%-15% of that assigned value it went into stock, and was tagged at anywhere from 5%-10% under that value (for something that was a real pain to strip down) to 25%-100% over the value (for easily stripped or high demand items) and placed on the floor until the time/inclination/need to strip it down came along. Simply enough, if the tagged amount was not offered by the time came to strip it down... It ended up in pieces. And sometimes, there may have only been a small fraction of the total item that was considered to be 'of value', so the rest of would either end up as parts scattered around the store or straight off in to the dumpster of recycling bin. Imagine my shock and horror one day when I stopped in to find the totally gutted chassis of a large, late model VAX CPU sitting against the wall! That one never even made it onto the floor intact! Anyone want to venture a guess what the 'items of interest' were??? Believe it or not, the power supplies and blowers! (straight off to a DEC reseller) Boards scattered around everywhere, front console on a shelf, and the card cage/backplane off into the can since it was too large for its value... (AARGH!) Curiously enough, I am neither defending or critisizing the practice... Just relating my experiences and what I have been told by those who should know... Actually, with this and a few other things that I've learned this week about common 'business practices', I'm becoming massively disallusioned with the whole structure of 'modern business'. Just convinces me that much more that I don't want to get involved with it amy more than I have to... (where vintage computers are concerned... and some other things, but that is yet another story...) B^} -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

In message <Pine.3.89.9908211900.A10465-0100000@netcom16>, John Lawson writes: While I fully agree that one must not insult the intelligence of a potential business associate, I just can't hold back telling a story of a low-ball that worked. Several years ago an old friend from college, my wife and I were strolling around a hamfest and came across a rather nice 19" equipment rack. It was about 6' tall, had fans in the top and hinged doors on both sides and the back. The rollers and paint were even in good condition. After chatting a bit, the seller said we should make an offer. While I was pondering if he would take $50 or $100 for it and if I could justify that (I was in grad school at the time), my wife piped up and asked "How about $15?" My college chum and I just stood dumbfounded while the seller thought for a second and said "Ok." And that's how I ended up with my rack. Brian

Brian wrote: I've found that making lowball offers sometimes is the *best* way to get things from certain surplus outfits. Two places that I frequent seem to have a tendency to accept offers for less than $25, but reject offers above that amount (on similar sorts of items). My guess is that if you offer over $25, they start to think that the item is valuable and that they should get a lot of money for it.

On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, William Donzelli wrote: I've never seen any IBM bashing. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99]