- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals

by frustum＠pacbell.net

For the cost of shipping from Austin, TX. All are originals, except where noted. If any of these aren't yet scanned, I'd be happy to donate them to someone who would scan them. I'm more interested in shipping the bunch than splitting them up. SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual SA810/860 Single/Double Sided Half-Height Diskette Storage Drives OEM Manual (copy) SA800/801 Illustrated Parts Catalog SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Theory of Operations SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Maintenance Manual SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual TM-100-1 and -2 Disk drives 48 TPI Tandon Product Specifications Mini Double Sided Recording Flexible Disk Drive Model TM100-4 96 TPI DSR Tandon TM 100 DIsk Drive OPerating & Service Manual Tandon TM100-1 and TM100-2 Disk Drives 48 TPI Service Manual Tandon TM100 Disk Drive 96/100 TPI Operating & Service Manual (copy)

17 years, 7 months

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Preserving directory times on mirrors created with wget

by aek＠bitsavers.org

General question about mirroring with wget that has been driving me crazy for a couple of days. My mirror of bitsavers is maintained using wget to my local work machine. Over the break, I switched to 10.5 of OS X, and got the latest darwin port of wget. In the version I had been running, directory dates were maintained drwxr-xr-x 9 aek staff 264 Nov 23 2006 . drwxr-xr-x 380 aek staff 12876 Jan 3 09:02 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 479 Dec 19 10:54 .listing -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 3835317 Mar 3 2004 M-4660_IOU-40_Jun79.pdf -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 8160815 Mar 3 2004 M-4908_Q30cpuTech_1983.pdf note the directory date is Nov 2006 even though the .listing was from 2008 using the same command (wget -m -np ftp://...) I now get drwxrwxr-x 2 pdp1 pdp1 4096 Jan 7 11:41 . drwxrwxr-x 3 pdp1 pdp1 4096 Jan 7 11:37 .. -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 479 Jan 7 11:37 .listing -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 3835317 Mar 3 2004 M-4660_IOU-40_Jun79.pdf -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 8160815 Mar 3 2004 M-4908_Q30cpuTech_1983.pdf I remember having a hell of a time finding a version that had the correct directory behavior, and now I've forgotten what I had done to get it to work. Anyone recognize this?

17 years, 7 months

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KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N??

by bob＠jfcl.com

>Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: >No, that'll be a BA11-M ... Oopss. Sorry. >The issue is not the number of address bits, which won't matter at all. That's what I was hoping, but there's one thing I don't understand - the LSI11 CPU only drives 16 address bits, but some of the option cards (e.g. DLV11-E) and the MSV11 memory decode 18 address bits. It's not sufficient to simply pull the upper two address bits to always be zeros or ones - the upper two address bits have to be zeros (for the memories) when the CPU outputs an address in the range 000000..157777, and ones (for the I/O cards) when the CPU outputs an address from 160000..177777. It's not a difficult problem, but where is the logic to do this? It's not on the LSI11 card, since those extra address bits weren't even defined in the QBUS when this card was made. > It's that your H9273 backplane is set up for an 11/23 and won't have >W2 and W3 inserted, but they need to be for a quad-height M7264 ... Actually the BA11-N H9273 does have W2 and W3 installed - according to the Microcomputers and Memories handbook, those are supposed to be installed if the CPU is in slot one, and removed if there's no CPU (i.e. for an expansion box). It doesn't actually say anything about which model CPU, but in any case they are installed on mine. Do they need to be _removed_ for an M7264? So is W1 (installed) for that matter, which I think controls the LTC. Thanks, Bob

17 years, 7 months

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H9273 backplane wiring (was KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? )

by bob＠jfcl.com

>tiggerlasv (tiggerlasv at aim.com) wrote: >The BA11-N user guide can be found here: >http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/ba11nug1.pdf Thanks - I guess I should have done this first :-) Actually it says pretty much what I expected except for figure 1-9 on page 1-8. This shows that slots 4 and 6 in the H9273 are wired differently (it implies that they have no QBUS connection!) from the adjacent slots. That seems hard to believe - can that really be true?? Were these slots reserved only for things like the second card in the RLV11? Another question - this diagram implies that the BDV11 is always in the bottom slot regardless of how many cards you have. Is that correct? Do you need grant continuity cards then for all the empty slots? Other than that, table 2-1 describes the jumpers and it looks like it says pretty much the same thing as the Microcomputers and Interfaces handbook - W2 and W3 are inserted for the first chassis, and removed for an expansion chassis. It doesn't look like any of the front panel jumpers would be affected by the type of the CPU card. Thanks again, Bob

17 years, 7 months

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PDP-8/e rack questions

by pontus＠update.uu.se

Hello. I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some searching on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual rails. So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look like? These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the flip-front? My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg And what does the rails for a PC04 look like? I found this picture over at Mikes great corestore site: http://www.corestore.org/8i-2.jpg, which shows part of it. Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what was the shorter version called, depicted here: http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg If you have any of the above mounting kits, I would be interested in buying or trading. I don't have much to trade with though, mostly SGI and Sun machines. /Pontus.

17 years, 7 months

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KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N??

by bob＠jfcl.com

I have a BA11-N chassis that says "11/03-L" on the front, and the backplane in it is an H9273-A. I want to get this to work with a 11/03 CPU (a real KD11-F M7264) but there's something strange about this backplane that I can't figure out. The boards I'm using are the M7264, an M8044 (MSV11-D), M8017 (DLV11-E) and a BDV11. In a small, 4 slot 11/03 chassis (a BA11-S, I think) all these boards work fine together, however in the BA-11N there's no joy. It powers up, but the processor appears to halt immediately - it never executes the BDV11 bootstrap. But, if I replace the 11/03 CPU in the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card, then everything is fine. So the 11/03 works fine in the BA11-S but not in the BA11-N, and the 11/23 works fine in the BA11-N. It seems fairly likely that there's some kind 16/18/22 bit addressing issue here, but what's the fix? It must have been possible to use the KD11-F in the BA11-N, given the 11/03-L designation. FWIW, the backplane has not been field upgraded with wire wrap to add the extra address bits. In fact, the H9273-A doesn't even have wire wrap pins at all - the pins are all cut off right at PCB level. Is this the standard backplane for a 11/03-L system? I'm wondering if at some time maybe the whole backplane was replaced with a newer one. Thanks, Bob P.S. Yes, I do know that BA11-S backplane is QQ/QQ where as the H9273 is QQ/CD. I don't think that's the problem - there's nothing in the CD slots below the 11/03 card.

17 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/05 returns to life

by tiggerlasv＠aim.com

Tobias Russell wrote: > The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built > with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use > vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does > this sound like a sane approach? I have a faster, albeit slightly convoluted method for getting information between the PC and the PDP. I created a standalone PC from old pieces/parts. This PC is a plain-old PC, with minimal memory, a small disk drive, a Teac FD55-GFR floppy, a generic SCSI controller, and an IDE <> CF adapter. The PC boots plain ol' DOS. I use a compact flash card to move SIMH images back & forth from my real PC to the DOS PC. (This saves ALOT of rebooting.) Using PUTR, I can make bootable RX50's and RX33's. Using John Wilson's ST.EXE (SCSI Tape utility), I can make bootable TK50 / TK70 images, merely by attaching a SCSI TK50 / TK70 to the SCSI controller. Although there are several steps involved in the process, it is infinitely faster than using VTserver, particularly when dealing with larger images. You could easily make a bootable RT11 disk on RX50 or RX33, boot your 11/73 with it, and make your RX01 images from there. That way, if you run into any problems, or want to make changes, you won't have to wait for VTserver to work it's magic. . . (Now, if ST.EXE would work with Exabyte 8mm drives, I'd really be a happy camper !) T

17 years, 7 months

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KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N??

by tiggerlasv＠aim.com

Check out the BA11-N user guide, starting at chapter 2. Make sure the appropriate jumpers are installed on the backplane, and on the control panel circuit board. They may affect operation of the KD11 modules. The BA11-N user guide can be found here: http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/ba11nug1.pdf

17 years, 7 months

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2.11BSD Patch 446+447; fixes for ulrem,umount,tar,tcsh,ps,vmstat,apropos,pstat,rk

by w.f.j.mueller＠gsi.de

A note to all 2.11bsd users: Over the past 2 years several bug fixes for 2.11BSD accumulated, and over xmas break I finally found the time to communicate them to Steven Schultz. Steven was so kind to package them into two new patch files 446 issued December 27, 2008 447 issued December 31, 2008 Together, the patches address the following points - ulrem.s: the unsigned long modulo operator (%) was broken in libkern - umount: returned inverted exit codes (1 for success, 0 for failure) - tar: core dumped when a whole /usr tree was archived - tcsh: the time buildin function printed some erroneous or zero statistics - ps: core dumped when '-t' option was used with no further argument - apropos: core dumped when 2 or more arguments were given - vmstat: wrong normalization for some fields - several issues around the rk disk driver - no rk root attach function - no rk BOOTDEV support - incorrect UCB_METER code (vmstat/iostat never showed any rk activity) - autoconfig left the RK11 controller in an error state - pstat: added additional options to access more kernel data structures - new -c option, dumping the coremap - new -m option, dumping the ub_map (UNIBUS map) - new -b option, dumping the buffer pool table - change -s output, gives now full table dump - adapt the info's displayed by -T - some documentation corrections (vmstat, pstat, tcsh) Note: In case you wonder, as I did, why 211BSD survived 20 years with a broken unsigned long % operator: - only the non-FPP libkern implementation was affected - the kernel simply doesn't have any unsigned long modulo's :) - apparently only standalone mkfs after patch 434 was compromised For the full story of all the above consult the header of the patch files. The patch files are available from moe.2bsd.com and ftp.wx.gd-ais.com. Note, that Steven changed the packaging some time ago, the patches are now packed in bzip'ed tarballs in groups of ten patches. So you'll have to look into ftp://moe.2bsd.com/pub/2.11BSD/440-447.tar.bz2 ftp://ftp.wx.gd-ais.com/pub/2.11BSD/440-447.tar.bz2 With best regards, Walter Mueller

17 years, 7 months

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Z80 instruction fetch mechanism

by jules.richardson99＠gmail.com

Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I suddenly thought that someone here might know... Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's instruction fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes in length, but there's only a single-byte instruction register. I theorised that control in the Z80 is all just a state machine, so multiple instruction bytes presumably advance things to a new state (and what's left in the IR during execution is just one byte from a multi-byte instruction) - but it sounds like the OP was wondering if anyone knew the exact mechanism (basically, has the design of the state machine ever been documented anywhere). (Given that I'm on a 'homebrew CPU' trip right now, I'm rather curious, too :-) Quite possibly this level of detail's never been made publicly available, but I figure someone here may have had close involvement with Zilog and know more. Online resources cover the overall internal architecture, but just 'black box' the control logic section (including the IR). cheers Jules

17 years, 7 months

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MicroAngelo Board

by marvin＠west.net

I just put up another MicroAngelo S-100 board on the VCGM. Sorry for the additional "sale" post, but a number of people here were looking for one that might not check VCGM regularly. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/

17 years, 7 months

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Free Calculators

by grant＠stockly.com

I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available for shipping costs. I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I don't know if there are any useful parts or not. I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them.

17 years, 7 months

5
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[Fwd: AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 Chicago area, northwest]

by ljw-cctech＠ljw.me.uk

Reply to the From: address below, not to me - LJW -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Cheryl & John Wilkins <wilkins at foxvalley.net> Reply-To: Cheryl & John Wilkins <wilkins at foxvalley.net> To: cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org Subject: AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 Chicago area, northwest Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:20:42 -0600 I have an AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 I'd like to get into good hands locally, northwest Chicago (ee.gg., Schaumburg, Hoffman Estates, Fox River areas). Indianapolis or Knoxville, TN, are possibilities, but less preferable. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360

17 years, 7 months

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two old computer books for the cost of shipping

by frustum＠pacbell.net

"Logical Design of Digital Computers", Montgomery Phister, Jr., (c) 1958, 5th printing 1960. hardback w/cover, 400 pages, good shape. "Digital Computer Design", Braun, 1963. hardback, 600 pages, good shape. Shipped from Austin, TX Both have basics of boolean logic, branch out into more system level issues, have detail on memory types and issues, circuit level considerations.

17 years, 7 months

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Jupiter Ace PCB

by classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk

Peter Coghlan wrote: >> A few of you might remember the Jupiter Ace I had that took a 9V spike to >> the expansion slot -- and my futile attempts at repairing it. It's been well >> over four years since I sent it to a listmember who offered to repair it, and >> all attempts to get the board or the spares I sent with it have failed. At >> this point, I haven't seen hide nor hair of him in months, although he's >> apparently still updating his website... >> > > Hi Phil, > > If you are not going to let us know the identity of the person involved, > please at least inform the list owner. A lot of people regard membership > of the list as conferring a degree of trustworthyness and it would be a > shame if that was damaged. The person in question is Lee Davison. Specifically, the Lee Davison that maintains the website <http://themotionstore.com/leeedavison/>. I sent the Ace motherboard to him in ~2002, complete with about ?7 worth of stamps and a ready-filled-out Special Delivery sticker. The agreement was, he'd try and fix it, and if he couldn't fix it (or if I asked for it to be returned), he'd return it. I'm fully aware that postage prices have increased over the past few years, and I've offered to pay for them. The last time I heard from Lee was in April 2004; he said he didn't want to send it back "disassembled, which it is -- very much so". It can't be in much worse shape than it was when I sent it.. the CPU and RAM were removed, among other things. IIRC, it was due a full set of new IC sockets (the CPU socket was certainly well stuffed)... > Ps: I once repaired a Jupiter Ace for a friend. At the time, I had no idea > whatsoever how to diagnose the problem. Luckily, the defective RAM chip gave > itself away by overheating (to the point of burning my finger) and replacing > it sorted it out. Yeah, 2114s like doing that... I was going to build a RAM tester for 2114s at one point, until I realised that they don't usually fail with any degree of subtlety :) > I do have a very bad memory so I hope it wasn't me you sent your Ace to :-( > However, I don't fit the bill as I don't have a website :-) > Unless I've forgotten about that too... LOL! :) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

17 years, 7 months

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PDP-8/e rack questions

by djg＠pdp8.net

For my PC01 the rails can be seen here (third from top). Sounds like the PC04 rails are similar. They have an added plate to make the rack attachment stronger since they don't bolt at the back. http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe08/pics/booth3.shtml http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe08/pics/showing.shtml Normal rails work fine, my PC04 didn't have any so I used normal ones that attach both front and back. You can see that in the next picture. For the TU56 I cheated. I mounted angle iron below it which I can slide it in on and then bolt at my leisure. The drive has a lip which makes things a little strange but works pretty well. I used aluminum but that is messed up by sliding the drive. http://www.pdp8.net/shows/tcf05/pics/big_stuff.shtml?small The maintenance manual says how it is supposed to be installed. It has a a support bracket between the rails the drive rests on. (pg 2-3) http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=27

17 years, 7 months

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PDP-8/e rack questions

by quapla＠xs4all.nl

The 'short' rack is indeed a H950 (H950-AA). The one I have houses curently my 11/35 config (11/35, RX02, RL02). I'm considering to converting this rack into a GT40 setup, but I do miss the keyboard for it (LK40). Ed > On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>>> Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what >>>> was the shorter version called, depicted here: >>>> http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg >> >> If I am not mistaken they are called H950. Come to think of it, >> in H960 fit *6* 10.5" high units, in an H950 fit *4* 10.5" high >> units :-) But as said, not 100% sure that they are called H950. >> Anyway, I would love to get one "H950" here in The Netherlands! > > I know those racks; love 'em...I've never been able to find one. > The guy I mentioned the other day (my childhood PDP mentor who is > working on an 8/a for a factory) had several when I used to hang out > at his place, but that was ~1985...they are long gone. I'll ask him > what the part number was; he may remember. > > H950, though...I'm pretty sure that is the part number of the > large rectangular bracket that the rear door mounts to on the rear of > an H960. Page 6 of the PDP-8/e Illustrated Parts Breakdown suggests > this (see item #24, referenced on page 8). I have one of these > frames in my garage, from one of my racks...if I can find it, I'll > take a look. > > The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that I've seen "H950" on a > sticker somewhere on one of my 19" racks that looks exactly like an > H960. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > >

17 years, 7 months

1
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for the true collector...

by jos.mar＠bluewin.ch

Posted on DAFC, but also of interest here : 7 track tapedrive with a scope for each track : http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360121005247

17 years, 7 months

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PDP8 spares required

by srp＠saslab.net

I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are the power supply and backplane. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Marek Pawlik

17 years, 7 months

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Stuff for Sale

by marvin＠west.net

I'm starting to put stuff up for sale again on the Vintage Computer & Gaming Marketplace. New stuff I put up include the 13 1950-51 Radio-Electronics magazines that have the Simon Relay computer series, Omnitronix RS-232 for Vic-20/C64, and other such stuff. I plan on putting new stuff up daily. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/ If something doesn't sell in two weeks, I usually just stick it in the store. There are some interesting things up for sale by others as well.

17 years, 7 months

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chip identification

by rescue＠hawkmountain.net

Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude its reuse ? I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better way.... So, beyond looking for better ways to search for chip data/datasheets, can anyone confirm the identification of the above chips ? Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) -- Curt

17 years, 7 months

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Orthogonality and contrivedness

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Orthogonality and contrivedness > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:57:30 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 4 Jan 2009 at 13:40, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into >> it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can >> only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). >> Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting >> experience. > >Well, at least the PC on the 430 is a regular register, operable by >any applicable instruction of the set. Doing a decimal add to the PC >must certainly yield interesting results! > >I'd always considered the 1802 to be in a unique position in the >70's, in that it was a (comparatively) low-power CMOS design. No >doubt this was aided somewhat by its simple architecture. Was 1802 >RCA's one and only veture in the microprocessor world? In the 70s CMOS was mostly RCAs game and calling card. They never got the density very high till mid 70s. There was 6100 (aka PDP-8 in cmos) and the 1800/1801 then the 1802 and 1804 and 1805 The 1800/01 was the base of the family and took two chips to complee the processor. The 1802 was the first CPU from RCA that took only one chip and the 04/05 added minor improvements and brought rom on the chip. If memeory serves RCA also had a mini that has a similar archetecture. The odditiy of the cosmac is once you program with it enough it's PHI SEX and GLO. Seriously it's fairly efficient once you get used to it. If it were made with current processes, the number of clocks per cycle dropped it would likely still have staying power. >> The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're >> Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. > >The Harvard architecture really falls down in uCs because of lack of >space to store read-only constants. Small PICs have to resort to all >sorts of oddball tricks to accommodate this for things such as lookup >tables. (Use a "return from subroutine with immediate value" >instruction). Upper PICs include instructions to access program >memory and AFAIK, all AVRs have them. Which doesn't make them >strictly Harvard architecture anymore. Had the ROM area included a >space in data memory for constant storage, it might have done the >trick. Yes, there's EEPROM, but it has a different purpose and is >not easy to use. Most all of the Harvard machines have a way to load a constant or acccess a table in rom. Started with the TMS1000. >The 430 drops the charade and adopts a Von Neumann architecture, >relying on the read-only nature of ROM to enforce the separation >between code and data. > >> To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and >> in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was >> substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some >> of the registers obviously intended for index use. Never tried that one. > >How many Nova programmers would have killed for 16 registers? To me, >what distinguishes the CP1600 was its inefficient use of instruction >memory (Yes, I know about the 10-bit ROM, but still...) > It was aimed at a rom based systems and back then rom was A)bulky, B)expensive silicon. ALlison >Cheers, >Chuck

17 years, 7 months

2
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RSTS/E question and media.

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: RE: RSTS/E question and media. > From: "Paul Koning" <Paul_Koning at Dell.com> > Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:38:33 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> > ...you'd need a sync DDCMP interface (for a Q-bus system like that >it >> would >> > be a DMV11). More to the point, it looks like the Micro-PDP11 >> support >> > appeared in V8.0, and I suspect there may be some other small >details >> > specific to the 11/53 that are later still. >> >> Right, so I'd need to plumb the 11/53 into say an Alpha via a serial >> connection. Sync... so I'd need to get a PCI sync card too, for the >> latter. > >Or later yet (V10.x?) there's async DDCMP, I'm not sure how clearly >accessible but I'm pretty sure it's in there. > > paul DDCMP can run over sync or async lines it was commonly done async for slow lines and sync for fast lines the division was around 19.2kbaud with the sync cards favoring the faster than that rates. I used to run DDCMP async at 2400baud though the Mill gandalf switch to a Vax host in the the Mill. Worked ok in the days when 2400 was fast and 9600 was fastest and expensive. Allison

17 years, 7 months

2
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RSTS/E question and media

by ken＠seefried.com

From: Andrew Back <andrew at smokebelch.org> > Right, so I'd need to plumb the 11/53 into say an Alpha via a > serial connection. Sync... so I'd need to get a PCI sync card > too, for the latter. Ugh. Is this something you could do with a low end Cisco (2500 class) and the apropos IOS image (Enterprise, with support for DECNet)? Sync serial is built in. KJ

17 years, 7 months

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Offer- VGA and SoundBlaster Card collections/last chance

by wpileggi＠juno.com

Couple of months ago, I offered up my classic VGA (ISA, PCI, AGP) card collection and Soundblaster (ISA, PCI) card collection(s). I had several take me up on my offer. I still have a lot left, if you have any interest, please email. Most went for shipping costs + small fee. Thanks. Bill KA3AIS ____________________________________________________________ Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1131/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007

17 years, 7 months

1
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Anyone know what these boards are?

by rborsuk＠colourfull.com

Anyone know about these boards? ebay # 170291194981 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com

17 years, 7 months

2
1
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Orthogonality and contrivedness

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

Chuck writes: > I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an > ATMega128), but both instruction sets seem to me to be more than a > bit contrived. The AVR less so than the PIC, but still on the "odd" > side of the ledger. Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting experience. The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. > I'm not a 430 evangelist (and suspect that it will never enjoy the > popularity of the PIC or AVR, which is a shame). I'll work with any > instruction set, but I know what I'd prefer to use. > > It's curious that the MSP430's instruction set is close to the GI > CP1600, where the PIC is descended from the very different 1650. To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some of the registers obviously intended for index use. Tim.

17 years, 7 months

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ACS Altos 3068

by afra＠aurigae.demon.co.uk

Hi there, Am I the only person on the planet that still has one of these machines ? The perticular example I have has 4M of ram and a 70M disk, and is running SysV unix. Acording to the documentation and the back of the machine, it has a SCSI-1 interface however I have never been able to get this working. I think I heard somewhere that the SCSI required a later version of the OS, I'm not sure exactly what version of unix I have, looking at my /etc/issue, seems to be SysV R2.2, does anyone have a later version ? Also I have heard that the source code for the OS was available, would anyone have such a beast ? Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush.

17 years, 7 months

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In the Christmas spirit

by jgessling＠yahoo.com

What IC is this, who, that I see On bench's top, is resting? Whom old timers greet with joy, while others are sleeping? This, this is the 4004 Whom collectors guard, make dealers sing: Haste, haste to bring it laud, The chip, the son of Intel! etc...

17 years, 7 months

2
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Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! > From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> > Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:27:08 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> (Interesting question, though - I wonder what a CPU might look like where you >> could just throw C source code at it, for instance :) > >Well, there *was* the AT&T Hobbit: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Hobbit > >Not quite that, but still optimized for C, allegedly. Never worked with >the architecture myself. > C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C addressing modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many instructions. Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the implementation of P-code in microcode. There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. Allison >-- >------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com >-- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ----------------

17 years, 7 months

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I scanned some stuff

by silent700＠gmail.com

I have started up a document archive made up of stuff I've had sitting around the house and storage that needs to go. Here it is: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/ I'm trying to make sure I don't waste time by scanning stuff that's already out there. Consequently, I'm probably also scanning things no one will ever want. But hey, archiving is archiving. I'm starting with ringbound docs I don't have to destroy to scan, or things I didn't consider all that valuable. Stuff that I don't destroy or recycle will be sold or (more likely) given away. Top of that pile right now is the Atari 400/800 BASIC Reference Guide and the 410 Operator's Guide. They are free for the cost of shipping from 60074. They are together in a lovely "Atari Home Computers" ring binder and not all that light. Enjoy, and more to come! -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org

17 years, 7 months

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Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G

by derschjo＠mail.msu.edu

Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." Anyone know the pinouts of these? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can expect to use with this machine? Anyone have manuals/software archived? I've found an image of a CP/M boot disk at http://ahm.ath.cx/smc70/, but that's about it. Thanks! Josh

17 years, 7 months

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Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

it don't got MSX roms, no. --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> Subject: Re: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 10:50 AM > > Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on > > it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub > > labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." > > Anyone know the pinouts of these?? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can > > expect to use with this machine? > >? ???Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video > processor it uses? It isn't, I'm pretty sure. I don't know a great deal about it, but I saw one at VCF East and the exhibitor made pains to point out it is NOT one of the Sony HitBit-type machines (which are their nominal MSX compatiboxen). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ----------------------------

17 years, 7 months

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ACS Altos 3068

by afra＠aurigae.demon.co.uk

jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > WHat's the approximate vintage of this machine? > I'm asking because many early designs (pre 1988, About the 1986-88 time frame. > or so) used non-standard 'SCSI like' interfaces > to talk to ST-506 or ESDI drives. Well the machine's drives are ST-506 MFM drives controled by a WD2010, though oddly with 16 sec/trk rather than the more normal 17, that most PC MFM interfaces used. It also has a QIC-02 60M tape drive, and a 1.2M Floppy. > The Adaptec ACB-4000 was such a device, for example. > It was marketed as a SCSI bridge, but in reality it > was closer to SASI. OMTI made similar boards, > and you could almost never sub one for the other > because of different implementations of SCSI. Yeah I have an external disk box for the RM-186 that as I believe a Xybec SASI to ST-506 board in it, I tried getting that to talk to a moden controler and it would not, though I have recently discovered that Adaptec SCSI cards don't seem to like really old drive like this which may have been part of the problem in that case. > I saying all of this because if this is true, then > attaching a modern SCSI drive will get you nowhere. Indeed, though it is labeled as SCSI on the back of the machine, and I remeber there being a similar looking SCSI chip in there to the ones in the Sun-3 systems I used to own. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush.

17 years, 8 months

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Suggestions for VT103?

by derschjo＠mail.msu.edu

Hey all -- Picked up a DEC VT103 with an empty cardcage and I'm trying to decide what manner of Qbus based system to put in it... I understand it's possible to upgrade the backplane to 22 bits -- how is this done? I currently have a MicroVax 1 CPU, an 11/23 half-height CPU, a few misc serial cards and the like, and a nice Emulex ESDI controller in my box of spares... I'm worried about power consumption, though. Anyone else hacked together a system like this and have any recommendations for hardware/software? Thanks! Josh

17 years, 8 months

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More ID questions: Centronics 503 printer

by IanK＠vulcan.com

I've had this printer for a while, but I've never found a reference to it in any literature. It bears the legend 'Centronics 503' on the front. It's a wide carriage tractor-feed character printer on a pedestal stand, and actually works pretty well. It's that slightly-orange yellow that I remember Data General being fond of for a while. One of the other things about it: I have a full case of ribbons for it. I've been unable to find a cross-reference that might tell me if there is any other printer that takes these. Any suggestions? -- Ian UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Vintage Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. http://www.pdpplanet.org

17 years, 8 months

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ID'ing Q-Bus cards.

by andrew＠smokebelch.org

I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched O/S. Looks like one of these M7651/SCSI controller pairs is going to have to go, in order to make room for ethernet... Regards, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org

17 years, 8 months

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AMI S2350 USRT datasheet?

by chrise＠pobox.com

Does anyone happen to have a datasheet or scans from a databook for the AMI S2350 USRT? This is a synchronous receiver/transmitter that was used in several floppy controllers-- including the Heath H17/H88-1 and a PERCOM SS-50 bus (for SWTPC 6800) system that I have. I cannot find any documents for this beast online. I also tried contacting ON Semiconductor who now own AMI but they claim to be unable to find said datasheet. It should be circa 1979, 1980 I believe... if anyone has an AMI databook >from that period. Thanks. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com

17 years, 8 months

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shades of Zune: the Apple Newton 2010 problem

by spectre＠floodgap.com

Just in time for the New Year, except with some warning, that Newton OS 2.x will go brown and down just like the Zunes did. However, N2K isn't until 2010. Anyone a Newton hacker who wants to try to fix the now provably b0rk3d solution? Some posts of note: http://myapplenewton.blogspot.com/search/label/2010%20bug -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A good pun is its own reword. ----------------------------------------------

17 years, 8 months

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T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> > Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 08:00:03 -0800 > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >>bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( > > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as >a product - > > - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't >legal!) Forth, CP/M68 could be compiled for it. I'm sure TinyBasic can be done >from Dave Dunfields TB in C. the nice part is anyone with a PDP11, LSI11 or sim (including Ersatz-11) can build an image and test it. > - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 It a micro much like 8085 so yes it can be done. But a small SBC with 32kw ram, 2kw rom and some serial IO is a tiny thing. > - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware >like RQDX3s, etc > That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used them in Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, and the storage hub (something mumble50). Allison >Bob

17 years, 8 months

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T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory)

by bob＠jfcl.com

>bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as a product - - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't legal!) - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware like RQDX3s, etc Bob

17 years, 8 months

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new version of Overbite for Firefox

by spectre＠floodgap.com

For those people who are using my Overbite add-on to surf the friendly holes of Gopherspace, there is now an updated version that fixes a glitch with XML files (including SVG). This add-on includes a "dotless" filter to remove the trailing period that many servers send, such that they won't barf anymore. There are also some various small custodial thingies. This will be the last version for Firefox 2. http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/overbite -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Reality is when it finally happens to you, too. ----------------------------

17 years, 8 months

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MSDOS/DOS OBJ file format compatibility

by mbbrutman-cctalk＠brutman.com

I've been working on my TCP/IP stack for three years now. It's in Borland Turbo C++ 3.0, which is capable of taking OBJs and making a LIB (library) from them. This is how I was planning to distribute my code for other people to use. A question came up today that I can't readily answer. If somebody is programming using Microsoft languages, will they be able to link against OBJs or LIBs I provide them? I have no idea if the OBJ or LIB format is standard and portable across the two vendor toolsets. If it is portable then I know I have to watch out for things like parameter ordering. But how does one express the concept of NEAR and FAR pointers in the different languages? Is there a guide or a cross reference somewhere? Maybe something buried in compiler docs somewhere? (The first target user is a *gasp* QuickBASIC user. I'd rather he program in C, but that's a different discussion.) Thanks, Mike

17 years, 8 months

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Memory/cache on the 11/70

by bqt＠softjar.se

Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote: > On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Remember, SETASI did this on a hex card something like 20 years ago, >> if not more. Most of the area was probably memory chips, which can >> be reduced extremely much by now. > > Actually, they used some surface mount for the memory chips. The > memory was pretty dense on that board but certainly not the majority > of the area. Still, the level of integration today is much higher. So if it could be done 20 years ago, it should definitely not be a problem today. >> And to make a few comments on other stuff that's been mentioned. >> >> You don't seem to appreciate the speed of things on the memory bus. >> A read cycle form the MK11 was typically something like 600ns, and >> could be as much as 1200ns (when error correction was required), if >> I remember right. Write was just as bad, while modify was worse. The >> max speed possible is still much lower than 150 ns, which is what >> the CPU will run at when you have cache hits (assuming my memory is >> right). There is setups, handshakes and signal propagations on a big >> bus involved. > > I thought that was driven by the memory and not the memory bus. There > appear to be some minimum timings (50ns & 100ns pulses) but from what > I could tell from the docs, the speed was dictated by the MK11s and > not necessarily the memory bus. Of course there are deskew times as > well. I'll have to go into it in more detail though. There are built in limitation in the bus which always will cause it to be much slower than running against cache. This should be obvious when we talk about an asynchronous bus. You have a protocol with handshakes and acknowledges that goes back and forth for each memory access. And each of those phases of the protocol needs a minimum time. Of course, the 600ns minimum times of the MK11 are are partially because of the limitations of the MK11, but exactly how much you should blame each half for is unknown. After all, the access times for the memory chips in the MK11 box are not anywhere near 600ns. > If this were 15-20 years ago, I'd agree that speed would be a > principle concern, but space and power seem to be more important these > days. Given that this solution (just like the PEP-70/Hypercache) is > completely reversible I don't see a fundamental problem with this > approach. Me neither. As I said before, if someone wants to do it, I'll definitely not try to prevent it. But it's not something that I find particularly interesting myself. > I mostly do this stuff out of interest in preserving the systems in as > much of a runnable state as possible. All of the the 11/70s I > acquired over the past few years have been CPUs only. There have been > no memory boxes (or peripherals of any kind). I haven't been > particularly worried about this issue since I also managed to acquire > a fair number of PEP-70's & Hypercaches. But I suspect there may be > other people out there that aren't as fortunate and want to run an > 11/70 without having to have large numbers of racks. I don't worry > too much about space/power since I am restoring a 2065 after all and > 11's pale in comparison (but I'm also planning to do a memory > replacement for that too which is where I discovered the SSRAMs since > they are the perfect geometry for a '10). Well, both the 11/70s around here have enough memory as it is, so that if anything, it's the speedup that I'd be interested in. Power...? Well, we have two -2060s, as well as two VAX-8650 around as well. Compared to those, the 11/70s are nothing. :-) The biggest power consumer is the memory system of the DEC-20 by the way. It uses a linear power supply... Heavy as hell as well. :-) (I couldn't possibly talk you out of a HC-70/PEP-70 combo would I? Anything you might want in return?) >> 70ns memory will definitely be sufficient for whatever we would >> design. > > I plan on using 200Mhz SSRAMs 'cause they're relatively easy to > interface to. Of course, this is way overkill (5ns memory access > times) for this but they're cheap (~$8/ea and only 2 would be > needed). I probably won't clock it that fast. I figure something on > the order of a 40MHz base clock (25ns) would give me enough > granularity for any timing that would need to be done. Definitely overkill. But there is nothing wrong with overkill, as long as it don't cost a lot extra. >> I very much doubt that we'd have any problems getting it all into >> one or two cards. >> One advantage of replacing the cache is that then we'd definitely >> just talk TTL. No buses with drivers at all. >> Much simpler and cheaper from that point of view. > > The driver/receivers are my principle concern. I did find a bus > transceiver last night that's open-collector on one side and tri-state > on the other. That simplifies things *alot* if it's compatible > (though I suspect that with a 4-8" run of cables almost anything would > work). Now if I could just find one that was LVTTL on the tri-state > side I'd be happy (it would eliminate level shifters). :-) :-) >> Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the >> HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, >> and just improve by using current available technology. > > That would be ideal. However, does anyone have drawings for the > MK11? The most I could find was the tech manual on Bitsavers. I > mainly want to understand the transceivers a bit more. I think I have the drawings somewhere, along with a bunch of manuals that aren't on bitsavers either. One of these years I really should try to get it scanned, or something... (Along with a bunch of other documentation that I have lying around for various DEC stuff...) And as someone else said, the MJ11 drawings should also be good for the information you're asking for. (And yes, I've kept one real MJ11 around, just for nostalgia. But it's not hooked up.) I also have some third party memory boxes. I think they were made by Plessey. You could try find something from there as well. Johnny

17 years, 8 months

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Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME!

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

Chuck wrote: > On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". > > Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? If we're talking about > "directly executing" shouldn't the hardware be so tightly wound up > with the language that reprogramming it (say, by replacing ROMs) to > host some other language is impossible? Otherwise, it's just a > conventional processor executing a stored program. What about, say, a Western Digital Microengine? It's a LSI-11 chipset but with different microcode to interpret P-code which by definition means UCSD Pascal, so in every real respect a language-specific processor in a way that a PDP-11/03 isn't. It's not like people just popped in different MICROM chips to go from a PDP-11/03 to a Microengine to a Alpha Micro WD16. At least, nobody I knew did. I've had Alpha Micros and Microengines and 11/03's at different times through the years and while it's obvious they all have WD chips I never did have the inkling to go muck about with the MICROM's. I doubt a 11/03 with a WCS would be enough to "become" a Alpha Micro or a Microengine. I always did my WCS stuff within the context of the -11 register set, for example. Maybe I was just restrictively unclever at the time. Tim.

17 years, 8 months

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T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory)

by bob099＠centurytel.net

From: "e.stiebler" <emu at e-bbes.com> Subject: Re: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) >Bob Armstrong wrote: >> >> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> >> PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( >> > > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > > a product - > >There was/is a design out there from a guy (Peter McCollum) who made a >T11-SBC, and really got it working. He Wire-Wrapped it, but the >schematics are somewhere on the net. Somebody just has to sit down and >make a PCB out of it. Schematic here http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/t11.jpg -- A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. - Proverbs 22:3

17 years, 8 months

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Fairchild SYMBOL

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the SYMBOL computer, designed > and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa State. Only one was built. And that one is in the CHM collection. I have found some documentation for it, but no software.

17 years, 8 months

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Memory/cache on the 11/70

by jam＠magic.com

> > Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the > > HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, > > and just improve by using current available technology. > > That would be ideal. However, does anyone have drawings for the > MK11? The most I could find was the tech manual on Bitsavers. I > mainly want to understand the transceivers a bit more. Hmm ... not on manx, either. I've got the MK11-B field maintenance print set (MP00523). I'll see if I can dig it out this evening. The MJ11 drawings would also show the transceivers. James Markevitch

17 years, 8 months

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Memory/cache on the 11/70

by bqt＠softjar.se

Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote: > > On Dec 31, 2008, at 8:16 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Skip the memory bus and the original cache. The original cache is >>> just 2 KB >>> of 2-way associative memory. If you set up a 4 MB cache, the CPU >>> can run at >>> full steam the whole time, with a cycle time of about 150 nS, if I >>> remember >>> right. >> Handy, since 70ns SRAM is easy to find. True. And 70ns is definitely fast enough. >>> It is more complicated, though. You'll have access paths from CPU, >>> Unibus >>> and four massbus controllers to deal with. But it should definitely >>> be >>> doable (heck, SETASI have already done it once). >>> >>> I might be interested in such a project myself, since the 11/70s we >>> have >>> around here still are on MK11 boxes. I could deal with PCBs and >>> design, but >>> I'm very short on time, as usual... :-( >>> No experience at all with FPGAs or any such fancy stuff. >> If such a thing were to be designed (I could participate in the design >> phase, but not drive it), I'd probably be interested in two, >> especially if the blank board was only a few hundred dollars. If it >> came closer to $1000, I'd really have to think about passing on the >> second one (I used to order multi-layer DEC backplane boards, and at >> the time, $500 was a good price for orders between q10 and q100, but >> things in the PCB market have changed radically). >> >> I'm in no hurry - my 11/70s are in storage and I won't be able to even >> pull them out to look at them in the next 90 days. > > The problem with replacing the cache is that it is composed of 4 hex > boards (M8142, M8143, M8144 and M8145). I haven't looked at the > backplane signals, but I'm dubious that it could be done with less. Correct. The cache and memory controller is a total of four cards. But unless my memory fails me, all the signals needed are actually located in just two of the slots. So you'd have to go with a two card solution. Either one card and paddles, or two cards with interconnects. > The advantage of just replacing the MK11 boxes, is that it could be > done with just one board. Depending upon signaling and such (and with > sufficient integration - ie FPGAs and SMTs) it *might* even fit on a > quad board vs hex. Oh, it could definitely be done with just one quad board. The memory bus is really simple. It's just that you won't get much of a speed gain that way, so it will mostly be a space and power save thing. Not at all as interesting, atleast not from my point of view. You can probably get it all in with through holes on a quad card even. The memory bus is really simple to interface. And since you'll keep it in the CPU box, and have the full 4 megs on one card, you can ignore all the requirements of the bus drivers for the memory bus as well. The 11/70 memory bus is otherwise designed for quite a long signal path. Total max was two cabinets full of memory boxes, or eight of them. That would get it close to ten feet. Power was accordingly. So, while not Unibus, there are drivers and terminators on that bus as well. (Actually, the terminators are the same as those small cards that terminate a massbus, if anyone ever disassembled one of those.) Remember, SETASI did this on a hex card something like 20 years ago, if not more. Most of the area was probably memory chips, which can be reduced extremely much by now. But, as I said, I don't find that exercise very interesting. > The other issue with not replacing the cache, is that the verilog to > implement this would *much* simpler (ie it can probably be completed > faster). True. Simple stuff is always faster to actually do. :-) And to make a few comments on other stuff that's been mentioned. You don't seem to appreciate the speed of things on the memory bus. A read cycle form the MK11 was typically something like 600ns, and could be as much as 1200ns (when error correction was required), if I remember right. Write was just as bad, while modify was worse. The max speed possible is still much lower than 150 ns, which is what the CPU will run at when you have cache hits (assuming my memory is right). There is setups, handshakes and signal propagations on a big bus involved. 70ns memory will definitely be sufficient for whatever we would design. Surface mount or through? Well, I don't really have much of a preference. Of course, through hole is easier to solder, test and repair, but they do take more space. And I can do either. My cad program have extensive libraries for all of it, so that's not a problem. I very much doubt that we'd have any problems getting it all into one or two cards. One advantage of replacing the cache is that then we'd definitely just talk TTL. No buses with drivers at all. Much simpler and cheaper from that point of view. Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, and just improve by using current available technology. But of course, since I'm not offering to do this, except as a spare time project to aid in a community effort (unless I could actually make up for the time I would spend on it, and I somehow doubt there is a commercial case for this nowadays). So if anyone else wants to design a memory card to hook to the 11/70 memory bus, I definitely won't stop them, and might try to atleast give some helpful comments. Johnny

17 years, 8 months

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Any interest in a build-it-yourself votrax synthesizer kit?

by jzg22＠drexel.edu

If offered for $300 would anyone be interested in a kit to build a discrete resistor/capacitor/analog implementation of a Votrax synthesizer/vocal tract? Most of the digital parts would be done using a PIC. Would be mostly SC-01 compatible with possible RS-232 phoneme entry and optional text to speech. Please respond off-list if you're interested, if enough people show interest we may offer it. The price is not final. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu

17 years, 8 months

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Ebay: "new" 029 Keypunch

by silent700＠gmail.com

Either new or very new-looking. Not mine, don't know the seller, etc: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280297753368 \

17 years, 8 months

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RSTS/E question and media.

by andrew＠smokebelch.org

So I finally got the Micro PDP11/53 hooked-up to a terminal. When back at the folks at over Christmas I found an old MMJ cable and DB25F adapter, which work when the latter is plugged into the VT. I need to try the MMJ cable I bought recently with this adapter, but suspect it is something about using an MMJ direct between the PDP and VT. ISTR having this problem before trying to direct cable a MicroVAX to a VT's MMJ port. In any case, I'd like to join this machine into Hecnet, hope to run RSTS/E and have a couple of questions: - Looks like only v7 of RSTS/E is available, would this suffice? - Would anyone be willing to help me out with media (happy to cover cost for media and postage, of course)? Regards, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org

17 years, 8 months

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Free for Shipping: SyQuest EZFlyer, EZDrive

by martinm＠allwest.net

The items are claimed. Thank you, Martin Marshall > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Marshall [mailto:martinm at allwest.net] > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:56 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; The Rescue List > Subject: Free for Shipping: SyQuest EZFlyer, EZDrive > > > More from the cleanup: > > One = SyQuest EZFlyer 230 MB Drive - Parallel Port - Original > box - complete > > One = SyQuest EZDrive 135 MB Drive - SCSI External - Shrink-wrapped > > Free for shipping from 82930. Reply off-list to "martinm" at > the domain "allwest.net". > > Thank you, > Martin Marshall >

17 years, 8 months

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What kind of IC is this

by technobug＠comcast.net

On 1 Dec 2008 10:54:43 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Of course, you can always use a 2716 or like EPROM on the place > of PROMs > :o) Actually not... A fast 2716 has an access time of 200 nsec whereas TTL PROMs have sub 100 nsec access times (e.g. 82S115 = 60nsec max). At the time, TTL PROMs were used where access speed was necessary. To replace them with an EPROM or EEPROM you have to go to something much more current. CRC

17 years, 8 months

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Ebay: "new" 029 Keypunch

by jrkeys＠jrkeys.cnc.net

---- General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Really? Reaction on this list to the original govliq lot seemed to > > indicate otherwise. I don't know how often they come up on ebay > > because I don't have an active search looking for them. > > Most I see are not on Ebay. In the past couple of years, I have come > across maybe six 029 and 129 machines _off_ Ebay, then there are the > ones that we see _on_ Ebay. 029s and 129s seem to be neck and neck as > far as availability. Other keystations, like the 024 and 026 are not. > Then there are some weird variants, generally part of data comm sets, > that really are rare. But then, often the difference is only a hair > more than a new tag. > > > Still, considering that someone snatched that one up with a buy-it-now > > option instead of waiting out the auction tells me that they aren't > > common on ebay either. > > Lots of people, including some of the mainframe collectors (big guns), > still think that the 029s and 129s are really rare. I suspect they are > not looking past their screens. For those of us that are actually > doing the legwork, the things just come around. > > > While rare is a relative and not an absolute term, I don't think this > > sort of item (particularly in this condition) would qualify as common. > > Yes, the condition matters greatly in this example. I will admit that. > > -- > Will > I have found none here in Texas but have found several outside of Texas both in CO & GA. Picked up some 024's and other loder devices. John K

17 years, 8 months

1
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Why it is sometimes necessary to re-seat a board or chip

by sellam＠vintagetech.com

I was perusing some topics on Wikipedia and came across this enlightening tidbit of information in the article on "Gold plating": "With direct gold-on-copper plating, the copper atoms tend to diffuse through the gold layer, causing tarnishing of its surface and formation of an oxide and/or sulfide layer. "A layer of a suitable barrier metal, usually nickel, is usually deposited on the copper substrate before the gold plating. The layer of nickel provides mechanical backing for the gold layer, improving its wear resistance. It also reduces the impact of pores present in the gold layer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_plating So this is why a re-seating of certain cards, connectors and ICs oftentimes cures a fidgety system. Just thought I'd share this. It was novel to me at least. P.S. I'm assuming this information is accurate :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

17 years, 8 months

5
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Free items, West Yorkshire.

by austin＠ozpass.co.uk

Hello! Having a New-Years clearout before my son/daughter arrives. Free for collection: SGI 20" Monitor (including little slide-out remote control) Digital (DEC) 17" Monitor (originally used with a VAXstation) Generic (beige) 19" Monitor with BNC inputs (used for my SGI Crimson) Sun PowerMac G4 (sawtooth) X 2 Sun SparcStation 4 Sun SparcStation 5 (bad cosmetic condition - missing front "feet") Sun SparcStation 2 Sun ULTRA 1 Sun ULTRA Enterprise 2 Xemplar Power Macintosh ONE/225 HP Deskjet 1220C Ideally I'd like to get rid of it all in one go, but I appreciate this is somewhat optimistic! I can provide further information on any of the kit, upon request. All replies directly to myself, please. I'm based in Holmfirth. Happy New Year! -Austin.

17 years, 8 months

1
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What kind of IC is this

by technobug＠comcast.net

On 30 Dec 2008 13:59:20 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do fusible-link PROMs go bad? At least do they go bad any more often > than some of the LSI on that board? [...] Indeed they do. Six months ago I was given a DOA Rockland-Wavetek 5820B spectrum analyzer that had a disconnected power supply lead. Fixing that brought up the unit sans random pixels on the displayed alpha-numerics. I finally traced the problem to a 8S115 PROM that was feeding a 8X300 (two other CPUs in the beast - Z80s). After decoding the ROM I began editing the data to restore the missing 1-bits and reprogrammed the very same chip. After the first half of the alphabet, the remainder of the letters magically appeared. Once the bit "heals" it is possible to reblow it. How long this fix is going to last is anyones guess - probably another 20 years... CRC

17 years, 8 months

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Free for Shipping: SyQuest EZFlyer, EZDrive

by martinm＠allwest.net

More from the cleanup: One = SyQuest EZFlyer 230 MB Drive - Parallel Port - Original box - complete One = SyQuest EZDrive 135 MB Drive - SCSI External - Shrink-wrapped Free for shipping from 82930. Reply off-list to "martinm" at the domain "allwest.net". Thank you, Martin Marshall

17 years, 8 months

1
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T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote: > Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> The SBC6120 is a **real nice** SBC... Yes it is, and it's back in "print"! > ... [I] wish I had saved a T-11 (was it?) >> processor from many of the arcade boards I saw going to trash...I do not >> even know how to operate a PDP, but it would be something fun to learn :o) T-11s aren't terribly rare. Perhaps not as common as other 40-pin CPUs from the 1980s but they can be found on DEC boards and in at least one DEC terminal. The issue of using one in a modern SBC6120-like board has been brought up from time to time, and one of the limitations I think I recall is that they don't have a MMU and, unlike the F-11, there wasn't one for it, severely limiting your OS choices. Between that and it not being simple to emulate DEC interfaces down to the CSR level, turning a T-11 into a bootable PDP-11 isn't easy at all. Making a 64KB board that runs PDP-11 instructions isn't hard - but then what do you do for software? It's a harder problem to solve than on the PDP-8 since there really is only one dominant OS there (plus a lot of OS-less paper-tape software). Writing _a_ disk driver for one OS for your new disk (such as with the SBC6120) isn't a terrible obstacle. For the PDP-11, you have to consider that folks would be interested in RT-11, RSX, RSTS, and several varieties of UNIX. The T-11 would make a fun little board if you happen to know or want to learn the PDP-11 instruction set and have a use in mind for some configuration smaller than a console line and a disk/disk emulator. > I think I asked the question a couple of years ago, about which "classic" > non-typical CPUs turned up in arcade machines. I seem to recall someone > saying that the T-11 was used in Paperboy. Yeah... I remember reading about the T-11 in Paperboy some time back and was quite surprised. Large quantities of video games spanned the progression over the years from 8080 to Z-80 and 6809 to 68000 as complexity and sound and color advanced, and there were a few games here and there with something odd like a 6502, but the rare appearance of a T-11 really stood out for me. I never played Paperboy much, and I haven't seen too many of the machines in the wild since I learned they hid a T-11 inside. -ethan

17 years, 8 months

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T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:23:30 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Seth Morabito wrote: > >> (Where on EARTH did Bob find a new supply of 6120s?) > >Who said Bob is from the Earth? > >> -Seth > The 1802 and 6120 have had a long production life and there are many scattered around. Allison

17 years, 8 months

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RS/6000 7012-320 7013-520, free, Seattle area, any interest?

by glen.slick＠gmail.com

Any interest in the following for free if you can pickup in the Seattle area? 1990-1992 IBM RS/6000 POWERserver / POWERstation (2x) 7012-320 20MHz desktop (1x) 7012-320H 25MHz desktop (3x) 7013-520 20MHz deskside (2x) 3151 serial terminal As far as I know these are on the slowest end of the POWER processor range (before POWER2 and PowerPC) and probably run best with AIX 3.2.5. I think some of these have 32MB RAM and some 16MB, and SCSI hard drives. I won't bother poking around for more details unless someone is interested. If anyone is interested reply privately. If there is no interest a new free computer recycling law goes into effect in 2009 in WA state and these will go to a recycler sometime next month.

17 years, 8 months

1
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1950 Simon

by billdeg＠degnanco.com

I have posted a transcript from the Oct 1950 Radio-Electronics article "The World's Smallest Electric Brain" with pictures. http://vintagecomputer.net/simon.cfm Bill

17 years, 8 months

1
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PDP-11/70 cache memory

by bqt＠softjar.se

And since some have mentioned it, there was a 3rd party upgrade to the 11/70 which replaced the whole memory system with a few cards in the CPU box, which turned all memory into cache. This was by a company called SETASI, and the product was the hypercache. They actually had two products. HC-70 was the hypercache, and then you had something called the PEP-70 as well. It appears they could be used together, but I don't know if one was required for the other, or if they were related in any way, and if so how. (SETASI also did other stuff, such as a SCSI adapted for massbus, which was pretty nice, and usable both on 16-bit and 36-bit machines.) Johnny

17 years, 8 months

11
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Jupiter Ace - PCBs and such

by classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk

Hi folks, A few of you might remember the Jupiter Ace I had that took a 9V spike to the expansion slot -- and my futile attempts at repairing it. It's been well over four years since I sent it to a listmember who offered to repair it, and all attempts to get the board or the spares I sent with it have failed. At this point, I haven't seen hide nor hair of him in months, although he's apparently still updating his website... So basically I'm the proud (?) owner of the two sections of case, most of the snap-rivets (apparently Maplin sell these, so I might be able to complete the set), the rubber keyboard membrane, documentation, demo tape and a (supposedly working) 16K RAM pack. I've heard rumours of spare, unassembled Jupiter Ace PCBs kicking around; does anyone happen to have one up for grabs? It looks like the only way I'm going to get this thing up and running again would be to build a new mainboard >from scratch, thus that's what I'm planning to do. About the only parts I need are a Z80 CPU and a couple of 74LS logic chips. Only other alternative would be to get a few PCBs made up for it, then build one from scratch on that -- the catch being I haven't had any luck creating a decent track master from the scans of the PCB that I have.... Can anyone assist me in my Quest to Build a Working Jupiter Ace (tm)? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

17 years, 8 months

14
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SCSI <--> CF, was : Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME!

by emu＠e-bbes.com

Gene Buckle wrote: > Zane, you could just use an IDE-CF bridge. That's what I use in my > Amiga 2000 (albeit with a SCSI-IDE bridge in the middle of that). Isn't there a SCSI <--> CF bridge available ? I thought I read once on the web about it ...

17 years, 8 months

2
1
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CP/M on Sun 68k

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

Has anyone here ever seriously considered trying to get CP/M-68k running on an older Sun machine, say, a Sun 2 or 3? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

17 years, 8 months

4
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4.3BSD Quasijarus

by slawmaster＠gmail.com

I was poking around Google today and came across 4.3BSD Quasijarus as something that might be interesting to try in SIMH and maybe on my VAXstation, but the ftp site seems to be empty. Does anybody have a mirror of the Quasijarus 0c distro? Without seeing the files, I don't have any idea how it is distributed... I'm hoping it's a CD-ROM image so I can install easily on my vaxstation--anybody know? And yes, NetBSD is just too new for me :) Thanks John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

17 years, 8 months

15
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VT-180 docs/sw available in SW Ohio

by dave06a＠dunfield.com

Hi Guys, I've been contacted by a chap in SW Ohio with a load of DEC VT-180 documentation and software to find a home for. It's a heavy box (11kg), so a bit pricy to ship ... It would be ideal if someone closer to him could obtain this and scan/image any of the docs and software not already available. Here's the list he sent me: MANUALS: VT-180 User Guide VT-180 Series Technical Manual CP/M Operating System Manual CP/M Operating System Command Summary CP/M BIOS User Guide for VT-180 Read Me First for CP/M Users CP/M Applications Software Referral Catalogue VT-100 User Guide (covers the underlying VT-100 terminal) VT-102 Video Terminal User Guide (copy ? not original) VT-18X Upgrade and System Test Guide VT-180 Series Pocket Service Guide VT-18X Diagnostic 5.25 (original DEC disc) VT-180 CP/M 2.2 OS (original Dec disc) SOFTWARE: Select Word Processing for VT-180 (original DEC discs + manual) Multiplan Spreadsheet for VT-180 (original DEC discs + manual) MBasic for VT-180 (original DEC discs + manual) If interested, please contact me for his info. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html

17 years, 8 months

1
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Burroughs B80 available in Maryland

by dave06a＠dunfield.com

Hi Guys, I've been contacted by a chap in Maryland with a Borroughs B80 he wants to find a home for - I don't think he wants anything for it other than shipping cost if non-local. Too big/far for me ... if anyone is interested, please contact me for his info. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html

17 years, 8 months

1
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Bootstrapping the oldest VAXen (was Re: 4.3BSD Quasijarus)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: >> Glen Slick wrote: >>I basically followed along with the installation info I found here and >>gettting a basic bootable system installed was fairly straight >>forward. >> >>http://www.itsecuritygeek.com/itsgeek/comments/43bsd-quasijarus-on-simh-vax Nice. > This procedure is for a MicroVAX, though. You're not going to be able to > boot directly from magtape on a 11/7xx VAX. If you already know this (or still have the battle scars yourself), what we did back in the day, for installs, we booted 9-track tapes on PDP-11s (RK05 or RL02 if you didn't have tape, but the media charge was expensive), TK50s or RX50s on early MicroVAXen, and "console media" for large VAXen. The 11/78x models had RX01s via the internal PDP-11 console processor, the 11/725 and 11/730 had TU58 by the internal 8085 console "processor", the 11/750 came right up via ROM and could boot TU58s, and ISTR the 86xx had RL02, but I don't know by what attachment. You had to order your OS with the right console media to be able to boot up a "standalone restore" program which was then used to (sometimes) prep the disk and to restore the first saveset off of, commonly, a 9-track tape. Early on, VMS might have been small enough to fit on console media entirely, but by the time I was doing it (VMS 4.x), we had a tape and a pack of TU58s for our 11/750. Our UNIX distros (System III, 4BSD...) always came on magtape. I still have a pile of TU58s from our 11/750, but when I went to read them off a few years ago, I did not achieve 100% for any tape set. If anyone would still have a stack of VMS install floppies for a 11/78x, I think those might be more robust and quite possibly still legible. What I can't recall is how hard it is (i.e. - how manual and how much esoteric knowledge you have to have at your fingertips) to make a standalone restore kit once you have a running system. Eventually, and I forget when it started, you could create a VMS "SYSE" directory structure on your system disk for standalone backup with a provided script, but that doesn't help you get a completely bare machine up and running. This aspect of VAXen has hampered me now and then over the years - there's a lot of little fiddly software bits you have to have for installs and complete recoveries - stuff you never need when the machine is working fine. Unfortunately, I don't think I have everything we did when I did this every day or I'd have more working machines. It appears, looking back on things, that a long-term advantage of the MicroVAX architecture was that they did _not_ have console processors, so they had to be able to boot any MSCP device, so disks and diskettes and tape interfaces all were designed to fit the bill. The 11/7xx line does _not_ have that advantage, so takes more resources to bootstrap from the factory-fresh state. So if anyone who has resources from before 1995 (VMS before 6.0 or older versions of Ultrix or 4BSD) wants to write me off-list, I think there's a need to pull out what we all might have to see what combinations of systems and operating systems we can cover. With the present state of simh, it seems that the 11/780 is the way to go (there was a recent thread on the simh mailing list about this sort of thing and I think it's safe to say that emulation of other 11/7xx machines is distant or worse). Unfortunately for me, I don't happen to have *any* 11/780-specific resources, but I do have plenty of OS magtapes, etc. from about 1985-1995, FWIW, and quite a few 11/750 and 11/730-specific resources since that's what we had then. *Is* anyone on the list sitting on a pile of ancient OS install kits? If so, have they been read into disk and tape image files already? -ethan

17 years, 8 months

1
0
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T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:21:07 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ ><gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote: >> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> >>> The SBC6120 is a **real nice** SBC... > >Yes it is, and it's back in "print"! > >> ... [I] wish I had saved a T-11 (was it?) >>> processor from many of the arcade boards I saw going to trash...I do not >>> even know how to operate a PDP, but it would be something fun to learn :o) > >T-11s aren't terribly rare. Perhaps not as common as other 40-pin >CPUs from the 1980s but they can be found on DEC boards and in at >least one DEC terminal. The issue of using one in a modern >SBC6120-like board has been brought up from time to time, and one of >the limitations I think I recall is that they don't have a MMU and, >unlike the F-11, there wasn't one for it, severely limiting your OS >choices. Between that and it not being simple to emulate DEC >interfaces down to the CSR level, turning a T-11 into a bootable >PDP-11 isn't easy at all. Making a 64KB board that runs PDP-11 >instructions isn't hard - but then what do you do for software? It's >a harder problem to solve than on the PDP-8 since there really is only >one dominant OS there (plus a lot of OS-less paper-tape software). >Writing _a_ disk driver for one OS for your new disk (such as with the >SBC6120) isn't a terrible obstacle. For the PDP-11, you have to >consider that folks would be interested in RT-11, RSX, RSTS, and >several varieties of UNIX. > I have a few T-11s and they are fun to play with. The bare T11 will run RT-11 without mmu. The real problem is you need DL serial (or fake it) and also a disk otherwise you have to build your own drivers. The VT24x terminals used it and they actually implmented the basic PDP11 MMU to get 18 bit addressing. the parts load to do that is not steep but it didn't have the memory protection half of the MMU. >The T-11 would make a fun little board if you happen to know or want >to learn the PDP-11 instruction set and have a use in mind for some >configuration smaller than a console line and a disk/disk emulator. > In this day and age a disk would best be a SD or maybe CF part fewer parts and easier to bring up. >> I think I asked the question a couple of years ago, about which "classic" >> non-typical CPUs turned up in arcade machines. I seem to recall someone >> saying that the T-11 was used in Paperboy. > >Yeah... I remember reading about the T-11 in Paperboy some time back >and was quite surprised. Large quantities of video games spanned the >progression over the years from 8080 to Z-80 and 6809 to 68000 as >complexity and sound and color advanced, and there were a few games >here and there with something odd like a 6502, but the rare appearance >of a T-11 really stood out for me. I never played Paperboy much, and >I haven't seen too many of the machines in the wild since I learned >they hid a T-11 inside. > One of the few non industrial or DEC designs that did use it. Allison >-ethan

17 years, 8 months

1
0
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compugraphic on ebay UK

by rogpugh＠mac.com

Merry christmas, happy new year all. Spotted this on Ebay UK in case its of interest to anyone. its listed in the wrong category so may not appear on everyones radar. Item no. 180317075811 roger

17 years, 8 months

2
1
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Z80 CTC, DART, & PIO system clock question

by lynchaj＠yahoo.com

Hi! I am building a Z80 peripheral for an ECB bus device. All the Z80 control, data, and address bus signals are present on the ECB bus. However, the system clock (4MHz) signal is not available. The Z80 peripheral data sheets mention a "standard Z80 single-phase system clock" input to the CTC, DART, and PIO. I would like to supply a "local" 4MHz TTL oscillator can as an input to the CTC, DART, and PIO chips. Obviously, the "local" oscillator will not be exactly in phase or synchronized with the CPU clock. Do the Z80 peripherals require *the* CPU system clock or *a* system clock? I believe it is *a* system clock but do not know for sure and the documentation is not clear enough for me to tell. This is what the documentation says regarding the CTC Clock(phi) System Clock (input). This single-phase clock is used by the CTC to internally synchronize certain signals. If anyone knows *definitively* (not speculation) whether a "local" oscillator can serve as the CTC, DART, & PIO system clock and still work with the SBC CPU over the bus please let me know. Responses to this thread or send to my email. Thank you in advance Andrew Lynch

17 years, 8 months

1
0
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Heathkit manuals under tighter control

by jfoust＠threedee.com

http://techdirt.com/articles/20081215/0106043118.shtml - John

17 years, 8 months

6
5
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WTB: Sony SMC-70G Software, Peripherals, Manuals, Etc.

by Apergy＠aol.com

Please contact me directly at _apergy at aol.com_ (mailto:apergy at aol.com) . Happy New Year, Randy In a message dated 12/29/2008 11:06:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Ethan Dicks) 2. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Jerome H. Fine) 3. Re: [SPAM] - Re: Suggestions for VT103? - Sending mail server found on dnsbl.sorbs.net (Jerome H. Fine) 4. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Jerome H. Fine) 5. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Jerome H. Fine) 6. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Jerome H. Fine) 7. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Doc Shipley) 8. RE: Heathkit manuals under tighter control (dwight elvey) 9. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Sridhar Ayengar) 10. uIEC/SD == AWESOME! (Zane H. Healy) 11. Re: Jupiter Ace - PCBs and such (Dave McGuire) 12. Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! (Jim Brain) 13. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Ethan Dicks) 14. Facit 4431 terminal (Johnny Billquist) 15. Re: 4.3BSD Quasijarus (der Mouse) 16. ACCRC Sealed-Bid Auction Lot #2 Ready (Sellam Ismail) 17. Re: Jupiter Ace - PCBs and such (Alexandre Souza) 18. Re: 4.3BSD Quasijarus (Sridhar Ayengar) 19. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Diane Bruce) 20. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Sridhar Ayengar) 21. Re: Suggestions for VT103? (Diane Bruce) 22. Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! (Zane H. Healy) 23. MK11 with 1MB boards (Johnny Billquist) 24. PDP-11/70 cache memory (Johnny Billquist) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:26:24 -0500 From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0812281826r1374d1a3j84fc51b93785b4a7 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> What you are after is rosin-core lead-based solder around 60/40 or >> 63/37 tin/lead, with a diameter around 0.5mm (.020") to 0.8mm (.032"). > > I highly recommend 63/37 over 60/40. I find it easer to work with. Sure, but I'd never _not_ do a project because all I had on hand was 60/40, though. -ethan ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:36:29 -0500 From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <495837AD.2060707 at compsys.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Tony Duell wrote: >I refuse to beleive it takes you over an hour to solder one connection! :-) > > Jerome Fine replies: Well, maybe soldering a VT103 backplane was not so bad, but I seem to remember the problems I once had with a DRV11 module. It needed to be strapped, but the only way that DEC provided to change the CSR value was with zero ohm resistors. Removing a strap just meant cutting out a resistor. But I found it impossible to add a resistor. Finally after several hours of unsuccessful attempts (and almost damaging the board), I solved the problem by removing a few male connector pins from a damaged board and soldering them into the appropriate holes where the zero ohm resistor leads would normally be placed. Since the very tiny pin was easy to manipulate and could be easily inserted into a melted solder hole, I ended up with two pins which I could them wire wrap since the pins were very similar to wire wrap posts in the first place. Why DEC had not done that to start with I don't know, but I finally did change the CSR value. And it took about TWO hours each to finally insert each pin. Needless to say, I am not a bit fan of making solder connections at this point. >>As far I my experience is worth, the upgrade to a 22 bit backplane with >>the version DEC >>provides in the VT103 works VERY well. I watched over at least 6 VT103s >> >That does not suprise me. I was under the impression that some very early >Q-bus modules used at least one of those pins for something else (I've >seen 3rd-party Q-bus cards with 22 bit DMA capability where the bus >driver for thsoe upper 4 address lines (normally a '38 or similar) is >socketed with instructions to remove it if used in certain backplanes) >but I suspect the VT103 is late enoguh for this not to be an issue. > > As far as I know, the LSI-11 CPU modules (both dual and quad) do use some of those address lines. But the M8186, M8189, M8190 and M8192 can't since they all support 22 bit addresses for memory. So the VT103 backplane from DEC with 18 bit address lines probably supports the use of the LSI-11 CPUs, but not after modification to 22 bit addresses. Since the PDP-11/73 CPUs are now readily available, I can't see anyone using an LSI-11 CPU at this point except in VERY unusual situations which require the LSI-11 CPU for a special reason - like the microcode which can be modified. I don't know of anyone who ever modified the microcode for an LSI-11 CPU. That is not to say that I will not invent new PDP-11 instructions such as an UNSIGNED multiply, 32 bit multiply and divide which will be implemented under Ersatz-11. But as the fellow in Irma La Duce said "That is another story." >>The really cool reason to use a VT103 is that a hard drive can be placed >>right under the CRT. >> >I wonder about stray magnetic fields from the yoke and/or flybackj >transformer. Not that they'll corrupt the magnetic patterns on the disk, >but that they'll be picked up by the read amplifier anf cause random data >erros. But I guess it works OK. > > Not knowing about stray magnetic fields, I just put an ST412 (actually a DEC RD51) under the tube and started to run. This used a Sigma RQD11-B MFM controller (dual board with boot ROMs) with an M8186. Worked great. Made them available to Ontario Hydro as a work station. Since they were already using the VT103 with a dual RX02 floppy drive, the hard drive was a huge improvement. They ran RT-11 and having a 10 MByte hard drive rather than a 0.5 Mbyte floppy made a huge improvement. Expensive at the time, but worth while for commercial use. >>The one problem of using the VT103 is that the power supply is really >>too limited, although with >>only 4 slots, not a lot of power needed. Tony, perhaps you might be >>able to suggest how >>the 5 amp supply could be enhanced? On the other hand, with a BA23 >> >> > >Do you mean '5 amp' or '5 volt' here? I was under the impression it was >around 15A or so at 5V. > > Yes! I did mean the 5 Volt which is limited to 16 Amps on the VT103. And that includes all of the boards, including the VT100 video card and anything else in the VT100 which uses the 5 Volt level. >Increasing the rating of a PSU is not easy in general. Many of the >components would need replacign with higher-rated parts, including the >transformer (whether linear or switch-mode), the rectifiers, smoothing >capacitors (increase in capacitance value), chopper transistors (if an >SMSPU), pass transistors (if a linear design), etc.and of course you'd have >modify any current limit circuitry. It'd probably be easier to design a >replacement PSU from scratch to fit in the same space. > > I thought as much. I will continue to use the BA23 and BA123 for now. Since the core 2 duo CPU runs Windows XP which runs Ersatz-11 which runs RT-11 at more than 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/93, it is not likely that I will be using a real DEC CPU much in any case. By the way, with SATA II drives, the disk I/O is probably 200 times faster than any ESDI or SCSI drive connected to a PDP-11. >>As for modes of failure, how often should a power supply be used to be >>sure that keeping it out >>of service does not cause a failure when the power supply is used after >>a few years? Does anyone >>have any recommendations? >> >About the only thing that'll fail from not being used are electrolytic >capacitors, and I am not convinced this is a major problem with >modern-ish ones. Certainly it's not a failure I've ever encountered (yes, >I've had electrolytics fail, but not by the oxide-film disolving due to >them not being used). > I probably turn on the PDP-11/83 about 2 times a year. Since I had 2 BA123 power supplies fail in the past 10 years, I wondered about having to use them or loose them. At one point, I was told by a company that I did some software programming for that their major customer required them to run the PDP-11 systems every 3 months until delivery which was not to be for 2 years. Thus the reason for my question. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:37:02 -0500 From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> Subject: Re: [SPAM] - Re: Suggestions for VT103? - Sending mail server found on dnsbl.sorbs.net To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <495837CE.9070208 at compsys.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Josh Dersch wrote: > >Glen Slick wrote: > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt103/MP00731_VT103_Aug80.pdf >> >> Page 73 of 76, VT103 BACKPLANE > > So forgive my inexperience here -- but just to make sure I'm > understanding the changes I need to make -- is all that's necessary > just wiring up the address lines (18-21) from slot 1, to slot 2, to > slot 3, to slot 4? Jerome Fine replies: Don't forget that both ABs in each slot need to be wired in since each quad slot can hold 2 dual boards. That means a total of 8 solder joints for each address line and a total of 32 solder joints for all 4 address lines. Very fine insulated wire wrap seems to be a good solution. The plastic insulation can be stretched after each solder joint is made to cover the wire right up to the solder joint. A wire stripper can be used to custom cut the insulation at the exact spot needed - cut a bit short and stretch the insulation after the solder is cold. Then daisy chain from slot to slot as needed. Start with the first solder joint with about 2" of free wire, then custom cut the insulation to the correct length for the second solder joint on the same slot (second AB on that slot). It probably helps to keep the wires as neat as possible since the next address line is very close. > Also, just to satisfy my curiosity -- it's been mentioned by several > people that lead-based solder is necessary -- why is this? (I think I > have a spool of it somewhere that I liberated from my grandfather's > basement some years back, but I'll have to dig it up...) Ethan answered this much better than my limited knowledge! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:38:02 -0500 From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4958380A.2040204 at compsys.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a number of RQDX3's, but I'll probably go with the Emulex QD21 > ESDI controller that I have. It has an auto-boot option, which will > be useful since the 11/23 board I have just has the ODT ROMs... Jerome Fine replies: I use a Sigma RQD11-EC quad ESDI controller which can run 4 ESDI drives. What I like best is that 3 drives are VERY easily (just ground the correct line) made WRITE PROTECTED. Not having a proper panel, I just use a 10 pin cable and alligator clips to ground the line. The Hitachi DK515 with about 600 MBytes each work well. I modified the RT-11 MSCP device driver to allow me to boot any of the 60 partitions on the 3 drives. Normally, I use 3 drives with 2 being backups and only drive 0 with 20 RT-11 partitions being modified at any time. All drives are usually WRITE PROTECTED most of the time since I normally fix bugs in the RT-11 operating system and the device drivers. Since any mistakes in my code modifications could corrupt the hard drive, having them hardware WRITE PROTECTED prevents that until I have checked out the code. After I have made the changes to the backup drives, I boot the backup drive and copy the changes to drive 0 which is now just a data drive. I have 2 command files which compare all 20 partitions on drive 0 to each of the 20 partitions on drive 1 or drive 2. That takes about 4 minutes for each pair of RT-11 partitions of 32 MBytes each or about 80 minutes in total. Under Ersatz-11 with a core 2 duo, it takes about 1.7 seconds per pair of RT-11 partitions of 32 MBytes or about 30 seconds for all 20 pair of RT-11 partitions - not even time to get a drink. I am working on enhancing the HD: device driver under Ersatz-11. It is twice as fast as the MSCP device driver. For raw throughput, if I bypass the HD: device driver code and use a user subroutine without interrupts (hardly necessary when things are this fast), making a copy of an RT-11 partition of 32 MBytes is twice as fast again. A straight copy is about 0.2 seconds for all 32 MBytes as opposed to about 240 seconds the copy an RT-11 partition on those very fast (for a real DEC PDP-11/83 system) ESDI hard drives. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:39:02 -0500 From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49583846.4070900 at compsys.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu> wrote: > > >>Also, just to satisfy my curiosity -- it's been mentioned by several people >>that lead-based solder is necessary -- why is this? >> >> > >Because the equipment was made with lead-based solder (being many, >many years older than the RoHS directives), and mixing lead-free and >lead-based solder is not a good idea. I'm sure someone here can quote >chapter and verse, but AFAIK, you'll get unreliable solder joints if >you try. > > > >>(I think I have a spool >>of it somewhere that I liberated from my grandfather's basement some years >>back, but I'll have to dig it up...) >> >> > >If that's plumbing solder, you are unlikely to get good results. >Really, really old plumbing solder _is_ lead-based, but most of what >you are likely to find is not (so that it's safe to use on supply >lines). Plumbing solder is also frequently acid-cored or fluxless. I >don't recall running into any plumbing solder that is compatible with >electronic circuits. > >Now...if your grandfather was a Ham or did electronic repairs, what >you have might be just perfect, but be sure you have the right stuff >before you get started. > >What you are after is rosin-core lead-based solder around 60/40 or >63/37 tin/lead, with a diameter around 0.5mm (.020") to 0.8mm (.032"). > The exact ratio of lead to tin is not critical, nor is the exact >diameter, but since you aren't doing ultra-fine work or trying to >solder down something huge and heavy, like bundles of power-supply >leads or RF cages, I'd recommend something "medium" weight, like the >0.8mm (.032"). > >There should be a label on one end of the spool (if it's still on the >original spool) describing the various characteristics. If you aren't >practiced at making good joints, I'd recommend getting an inexpensive >electronic hobby kit to practice on. My earliest efforts from when I >was in Jr. High are rather ugly - by the time I was adding blue wires >to $2000 boards at work five years later, I'd gotten much, much better >from the early practice. > > Very helpful - thank you! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:42:57 -0500 From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49583931.4090103 at compsys.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >Jerome H. Fine wrote: [Snip] Sorry about the subject line - my son modifies it when his server thinks it is something suspect. > >Josh Dersch wrote: > >> >Glen Slick wrote: >> >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt103/MP00731_VT103_Aug80.pdf >>> >>> Page 73 of 76, VT103 BACKPLANE >> >> >> So forgive my inexperience here -- but just to make sure I'm >> understanding the changes I need to make -- is all that's necessary >> just wiring up the address lines (18-21) from slot 1, to slot 2, to >> slot 3, to slot 4? > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Don't forget that both ABs in each slot need to be wired in since each > quad slot > can hold 2 dual boards. That means a total of 8 solder joints for > each address line > and a total of 32 solder joints for all 4 address lines. > > Very fine insulated wire wrap seems to be a good solution. The > plastic insulation > can be stretched after each solder joint is made to cover the wire > right up to the > solder joint. A wire stripper can be used to custom cut the > insulation at the exact > spot needed - cut a bit short and stretch the insulation after the > solder is cold. Then > daisy chain from slot to slot as needed. Start with the first solder > joint with about > 2" of free wire, then custom cut the insulation to the correct length > for the second > solder joint on the same slot (second AB on that slot). It probably > helps to keep > the wires as neat as possible since the next address line is very close. > >> Also, just to satisfy my curiosity -- it's been mentioned by several >> people that lead-based solder is necessary -- why is this? (I think >> I have a spool of it somewhere that I liberated from my grandfather's >> basement some years back, but I'll have to dig it up...) > > > Ethan answered this much better than my limited knowledge! > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:53:23 -0600 From: Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <495849B3.6020708 at mdrconsult.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> What you are after is rosin-core lead-based solder around 60/40 or >> 63/37 tin/lead, with a diameter around 0.5mm (.020") to 0.8mm (.032"). > > I highly recommend 63/37 over 60/40. I find it easer to work with. I had the dubious distinction of being a "Certified Solder Operator" for TI's Lubbock, TX plant (in, what, '82?). Although the training I got there spoiled me forever in some ways, it's been invaluable over the years. One of the things that stuck was the "true purpose" of eutectic solder. We always used 60/40 for original or initial soldering, and eutectic for repairs or "oversolders". If you have a good iron and a good eye (or, these days, good Optivisor), the flow-point difference allows doing new work without disturbing old joints. Doc ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:04:44 -0800 From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Heathkit manuals under tighter control To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <COL107-W56ACC5C91959AB0F1EED01A3E60 at phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:58:00 -0600 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: jfoust at threedee.com > Subject: Heathkit manuals under tighter control > > > http://techdirt.com/articles/20081215/0106043118.shtml > > > - John > Hi Technically, if you have a H89 or such and you've lost the manual, you have a right to a copy of the manual without paying any copyright fee. The manual is already payed for. Still, if they have the copyright, they can have it removed >from the web if they can prove it is used for anything other than replacing lost manuals. I'm no lawyer and this is just a personal opinion. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista?. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:10:19 -0500 From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49584DAB.1000500 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> What you are after is rosin-core lead-based solder around 60/40 or >>> 63/37 tin/lead, with a diameter around 0.5mm (.020") to 0.8mm (.032"). >> I highly recommend 63/37 over 60/40. I find it easer to work with. > > Sure, but I'd never _not_ do a project because all I had on hand was > 60/40, though. Oh no, that's not what I'm saying at all. It's just that, if I'm going to be buying lead solder, I'll buy 63/37 every time. Peace... Sridhar ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:24:08 -0800 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <p06240800c57d8d8ad10d(a)[192.168.1.199]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The uIEC/SD I bought from Jim Brain was delivered Friday night (USPS was actually unable to deliver for several days in our area). My mail is currently going to a different location than we're living, so I picked it up yesterday, and retrieved my customized C64 from storage, and got everything plugged in last night (this was the first time we'd been able to get our car out of the driveway in over two weeks). Once I figured out how to use it, all I can say it is seriously cool, way better than my MMC-Replay for dealing with D64 images, and it was a lot cheaper! I'm even able to use it with the MMC-Replay plugged in so I have my Ethernet connection. With the MMC-Replay I was only able to get one or two D64 images to work, with the uIEC most I've tried have worked. I've been playing "Temple of Apshai" all day and having a blast! :-) Now to decide if I put it in some sort of case, or if I mount it inside the C64 somehow. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:30:28 -0500 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: Jupiter Ace - PCBs and such To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Cc: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <36662B2D-068D-4CD9-B096-F1129A6CCCA3 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Dec 28, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >>> BTW I was given a bare unpopulated Ace board for Christmas, I >>> have taken some scans of it but at 1200dpi they are *HUGE* >> I'd be willing to turn those scans into Gerber files if you send >> them to me.. > > That would be cool, an eagle board layout would be better still..... > > Let me see if I can zip em up small, I'll prolly upload them to a > server at work (and email off list) as it has much more bandwidth > than I do and they are really huge :) I use PCB, not Eagle, (see http://www.geda.seul.org/) but getting them into SOME maintainable format would be better than nothing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:33:44 -0600 From: Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> Subject: Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <49586F48.3090205 at jbrain.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Zane H. Healy wrote: > The uIEC/SD I bought from Jim Brain was delivered Friday night (USPS > was actually unable to deliver for several days in our area). My mail > is currently going to a different location than we're living, so I > picked it up yesterday, and retrieved my customized C64 from storage, > and got everything plugged in last night (this was the first time we'd > been able to get our car out of the driveway in over two weeks). > > Once I figured out how to use it, all I can say it is seriously cool, > way better than my MMC-Replay for dealing with D64 images, and it was > a lot cheaper! I'm even able to use it with the MMC-Replay plugged in > so I have my Ethernet connection. With the MMC-Replay I was only able > to get one or two D64 images to work, with the uIEC most I've tried > have worked. I've been playing "Temple of Apshai" all day and having > a blast! :-) > > Now to decide if I put it in some sort of case, or if I mount it > inside the C64 somehow. > > Zane > > I'm glad you're enjoying it. As I implied in a previous post, the device has an interesting history that has shifted my philosophy concerning such projects. I've come to realize that, in the hobbyist space, collaboration yields much more fruit for the project, even though one loses the "I did it all myself" statement. I was always afraid I would never learn as much if I didn't do it all myself, but that has *NOT* been the case. And, it's nice to bounce ideas off others when trying to map new concepts like IDE partitions and such into a 25+ year old platform. Although I am now biased, I started uIEC because I felt the IDE64 took away too much flexibility. It assumes the 64 is the only CBM machine, requires an expansion port, and requires programs use only the normal KERNAL IEC routines if they are to work. As a VIC/C128 owner, that seemed wrong. The MMC64, on the other hand, is more complex to explain. As a "mega-cart", it's fine (load cart images onto SD card, play lots of cart or single filer games). But, then they started marketing it as a general purpose drive unit (or people started assuming it world work like that), I think it suffered. It's not ideally suited for that use. There are still things to do with the uIEC base, though. IEEE488 support would be a great win, as then PET/CBM machines would have a solid state device to use, and I am working on a USB link to a PC, so one can slave their Win/Mac/Linux box to their CBM. And, for those who want something more vintage as a target, the protocol is simple RS232 (I use a RS232->USB converter), so they could add a MAX232 and write a suitable app for anything that provides RS232. Jim ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 02:02:47 -0500 From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0812282302v60ff9f65pe8ca668b81520d10 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 10:53 PM, Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> wrote: >> I highly recommend 63/37 over 60/40. I find it easer to work with. > > I had the dubious distinction of being a "Certified Solder Operator" for > TI's Lubbock, TX plant (in, what, '82?). Although the training I got there > spoiled me forever in some ways, it's been invaluable over the years. Neat. I never had formal training - just practical tips and experience. Oh, wait... I _did_ get one training course - on how to do SMT benchwork when I was at Lucent... I worked on the plant floor for a couple of weeks. > One of the things that stuck was the "true purpose" of eutectic solder. We > always used 60/40 for original or initial soldering, and eutectic for > repairs or "oversolders". If you have a good iron and a good eye (or, these > days, good Optivisor), the flow-point difference allows doing new work > without disturbing old joints. Ah! I get it. Interesting. None of the stuff I've done was that finicky, but it's good to know. -ethan ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:33:15 +0100 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> Subject: Facit 4431 terminal To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <49579C3B.2040307 at softjar.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Anyone have any docs for this terminal? It's a plain glass terminal. VT100-compatible. I have a problem with mine, and don't have any kind of documentation. I do see that the data lines have junk on them, and the serial port isn't working. But internal tests pass, and the setup and local mode works fine. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:09:08 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD Quasijarus To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200812281912.OAA13191 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I guess all the people who still like to run them have SCSI > controllers on them by now, [...] I wish. I don't run my uV2, but that's largely because I don't have more than trivial quantities of disk that's compatible with the Qbus disk interfaces I have. At one point it looked as though I might get a Qbus SCSI card that wasn't bootable (I don't mind netbooting as long as I can _run_ off local disk), but that never actually materialized.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 04:20:57 -0800 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Subject: ACCRC Sealed-Bid Auction Lot #2 Ready To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4958C0A9.mailH7I13DY3H at vintagetech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Announcing: ACCRC Seald-Bid Auction Lot #2 *** This is the last notice that will be sent to the general VCF mailing list. To ensure you receive further updates regarding this auction, please visit the VCF website and click the "Mailing List" link in the navigation tab on the right-hand side or bottom of any page. Then click on the link to update your contact information and follow the prompts from there to get into your profile. You should then select which announcements you want to receive. If you don't want to receive any more of these auction notices, select "Major announcements and newsletter only". Otherwise, select "Send me all VCF announcements". The Alameda County Computer Resource Center (ACCRC) is forced to liquidate its computer museum due to the current economic climate. The VCF has been contracted to auction off the ACCRC museum to raise needed funds for their non-profit operation. I have put up the second batch of machines at the following URL: http://www.vintage.org/special/2008/accrc/ In order to use the system you must have a VCF Community ID. Getting one is simple: just follow the links and prompts when you visit the URL above and read the instructions. The closing time for this lot is Monday, January 5, at 12:00PM PST. New lots will be posted by noon every Monday on a weekly basis until all items are depleted. At this rate we expect 4-5 more lots. ACCRC Sealed-Bid Auction Lot #2 ## Description -- ------------------------------------------------- 16 Kaypro 2X 24 Kaypro 1 42 Eagle II 43 HP 41CV Calculator 44 JC Penny Video Sports 45 Timex-Sinclair 1000 46 Stratus V101 Dumb Terminal 47 HP 85 48 Tandy Color Computer 3 49 Calcomp Drawing Board 50 Atari 2600 Video Computer System 51 Tandy CCR-82 Computer Cassette Recorder 52 Generic Lunchbox Portable 53 Atari 830 Acoustic Coupler Modem + 850 Interface 54 Magnavox Odyssey2 Console 55 Commodore Amiga 500 56 GRiDPad 1900 57 Compaq Portable 58 Platinum Apple IIe 59 Processor Technology Sol-20 60 Non-Linear Systems Kaypro 10 Check the item listings at the link above for further information and details. All items must be sold. No reasonable offer will be refused. Your purchases will go towards supporting an organization that over the years has provided nearly 20,000 refurbished computers to needy organizations and individuals worldwide. 100% of the proceeds of this auction will go directly to the ACCRC (minus the handling fees, which are covering my time...barely). Best regards, Sellam Ismail Proprietor Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:48:36 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza" <alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> Subject: Re: Jupiter Ace - PCBs and such To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <08d001c969b3$d10c0c60$46fea8c0 at DeskJara> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original > I'd be interested in how this is done as well. Lots of folks ask me to > reproduce vintage boards, and creating EAGLE CAD drawings for them is > time consuming. It is because eagle sux. A lot. :o) ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:21:28 -0500 From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD Quasijarus To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4958CED8.5050201 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed der Mouse wrote: >> I guess all the people who still like to run them have SCSI >> controllers on them by now, [...] > > I wish. I don't run my uV2, but that's largely because I don't have > more than trivial quantities of disk that's compatible with the Qbus > disk interfaces I have. > > At one point it looked as though I might get a Qbus SCSI card that > wasn't bootable (I don't mind netbooting as long as I can _run_ off > local disk), but that never actually materialized.... Why not cluster-boot with local swap? Shouldn't be too slow. Peace... Sridhar ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:54:50 -0500 From: Diane Bruce <db at db.net> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20081229135450.GA35079 at night.db.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 09:26:24PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > >> What you are after is rosin-core lead-based solder around 60/40 or > >> 63/37 tin/lead, with a diameter around 0.5mm (.020") to 0.8mm (.032"). > > > > I highly recommend 63/37 over 60/40. I find it easer to work with. > > Sure, but I'd never _not_ do a project because all I had on hand was > 60/40, though. As you know, the biggest difference is the lower melting point of 63/37, that does make it easier to work with. I don't suppose I need to say this, but never ever ever use the roll of solder your father used for plumbing with the acid core. Ever. > > -ethan > - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:57:38 -0500 From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4958D752.4040607 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Diane Bruce wrote: > On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 09:26:24PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: >>> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> What you are after is rosin-core lead-based solder around 60/40 or >>>> 63/37 tin/lead, with a diameter around 0.5mm (.020") to 0.8mm (.032"). >>> I highly recommend 63/37 over 60/40. I find it easer to work with. >> Sure, but I'd never _not_ do a project because all I had on hand was >> 60/40, though. > > As you know, the biggest difference is the lower melting point of 63/37, > that does make it easier to work with. It's not the lower melting point. It's that the mixture is eutectic. Peace... Sridhar ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:08:57 -0500 From: Diane Bruce <db at db.net> Subject: Re: Suggestions for VT103? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Cc: General Discussion: Message-ID: <20081229140857.GB35079 at night.db.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 08:57:38AM -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Diane Bruce wrote: > >On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 09:26:24PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> ... > >>Sure, but I'd never _not_ do a project because all I had on hand was > >>60/40, though. > > > >As you know, the biggest difference is the lower melting point of 63/37, > >that does make it easier to work with. > > It's not the lower melting point. It's that the mixture is eutectic. Yes I know it is eutectic. But for newbies the lower temperature is much easier on the board, one tends to lift fewer foils this way. It's also much easier with a decent soldering station to not lift foils, but if you don't have such, a lower melting point means the newbie tends not to overdo it. Of course, if you are soldering some heavy duty backplane, which I believe was the start of this thread, I suppose it's not as much of a problem. But I'd still recommend not using lead/acid solder for a backplane. ;-) > > Peace... Sridhar > - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 07:59:00 -0800 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> Subject: Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, General Discussion: Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <p06240802c57e9ddce09f(a)[192.168.1.199]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:33 AM -0600 12/29/08, Jim Brain wrote: >The MMC64, on the other hand, is more complex to explain. As a >"mega-cart", it's fine (load cart images onto SD card, play lots of >cart or single filer games). But, then they started marketing it as >a general purpose drive unit (or people started assuming it world >work like that), I think it suffered. It's not ideally suited for >that use. I'm glad I own a MMC-Replay cart, especially with the RRNET option, but if the uIEC had been available I might not of purchased it. While you can mount D64 images, you can't run most software from them. I think the situation might be better on PAL C64's. I've found that Individual Computers has a habit of advertising features that don't quite live up to my expectations. I also own a Catweasel card for my Amiga, and even though I bought it nearly 10 years ago, I'm still a bit ticked over it. If something doesn't include device drivers, you shouldn't advertise it as supporting various formats. It basically could read 2 of the floppy types it claimed to support. >to use, and I am working on a USB link to a PC, so one can slave >their Win/Mac/Linux box to their CBM. And, for those who want >something more vintage as a target, the protocol is simple RS232 (I >use a RS232->USB converter), so they could add a MAX232 and write a >suitable app for anything that provides RS232. If you support Mac & Linux this might be of interest to me. My major problem with just things has been the fact that it only ever seems to support Windows, and I don't typically have a Windows machine running. One question, what size SD cards does the uIEC support, and does it support HDSD cards? Right now I'm using the 2GB card from my MMC-Replay and it wants its card back. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:35:28 +0100 From: Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist at synap.se> Subject: MK11 with 1MB boards To: mcguire at neurotica.com Cc: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4958B600.50405 at synap.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ok. To start with the short version. Get back when you really want more details. The deal is to fake the MK11 so that it thinks there are four 256KB cards when you have a 1MB card. The memory bus is pretty simple. You have address lines, and card select lines. Address lines are as usual. Card select lines are like chip selects, or whatever you are used to in terminology. It selects which card should respond when address and data and other control signals are on the bus. Usually only one card select line is active at a time. So you have three things to deal with: . Address lines . Card select lines . ECC Address lines are pretty simple. You grab four card select lines, hook a 4-to-2 binary multiplexor in there, and you get A18,A19 from those. This means that four adjacent cards will cause A18,A19 to be generated. Card select lines are even simpler. You just OR the four card select lines together, and output it on one of them. I seem to remember that you don't need to cut anything on the backplane, but check that to be sure. Also, you need a total of four of these special cards in order to get 4 MB working in the MK11, but all four cards will be identical. With that, the hardware side is done. Now, the one part left is a bit more tricky, but it's a hardware problem with a software solution. The MK11 (as well as the 11/750) have ECC memory. In order for the memory to not scream bloody hell when you access it, the syndrome bits must be set right. At power up, the MK11 initialize the syndrome bits for all memory in the box, but it does this in a really clever way. It runs though all addresses and do a write to them, forcing the ECC syndrome bits to be updated. *But*... It does this on all cards in the box in parallell. That is, all card select lines are active at the same time, at this one instance. The problem with that is that (obviously) not all the memory in the 1MB memory board will be reset. By designing your small adapter card the right way, you can get atleast the first 256KB ECC syndrome bits set right. The rest you'll have to do by software instead, before the memory can be used. Otherwise you'll just get parity errors if you try to access that memory. And, normal writes to memory won't work! The memory is 32 bits wide, and a normal write from a PDP-11 will only write 16 bits, so it won't cause the memory to do a blind write and just set the syndrome bits. If you read the documentation for the MK11, you'll find that it actually have a CSR as well, and in that, you can set bits to force writing the syndrome bits and ignore errors. And for the initialization that's what you need to do: set the right bits in the CSR, write to all memory needed, and then reset the CSR again. The last "funny" thing with this is that the CSR isn't easy to access. All accesses to the I/O page in an 11/70 will cause the reference to run out on the Unibus (not surprising). However, the MK11 isn't on the Unibus. :-) The trick is to realize that the Unibus map will always direct the access to the memory bus, even if the final address is in the I/O page. So, you need to setup the Unibus map to point to the I/O page, and then access the MK11 CSR through the Unibus map. After that, you're all done, and the MK11 with 1MB memory boards will be happy. I've done it in the past, and it really not any more complicated than that. Johnny ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:52:14 +0100 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> Subject: PDP-11/70 cache memory To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4958B9EE.1050507 at softjar.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed And since some have mentioned it, there was a 3rd party upgrade to the 11/70 which replaced the whole memory system with a few cards in the CPU box, which turned all memory into cache. This was by a company called SETASI, and the product was the hypercache. They actually had two products. HC-70 was the hypercache, and then you had something called the PEP-70 as well. It appears they could be used together, but I don't know if one was required for the other, or if they were related in any way, and if so how. (SETASI also did other stuff, such as a SCSI adapted for massbus, which was pretty nice, and usable both on 16-bit and 36-bit machines.) Johnny End of cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 65 ************************************** **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000…)

17 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

Facit 4431 terminal

by bqt＠softjar.se

Anyone have any docs for this terminal? It's a plain glass terminal. VT100-compatible. I have a problem with mine, and don't have any kind of documentation. I do see that the data lines have junk on them, and the serial port isn't working. But internal tests pass, and the setup and local mode works fine. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

17 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

Correction to earlier posting about 5 + q inch diskettes

by gagnonr＠vif.com

I have approximately 1 1/2 banker's boxes (crates) full of 5 1/4" DSDD diskettes in their boxes. I am located in Montreal, Canada. Thanks, Robin Gagnon, Ph.D. Psychology Department Dawson College

17 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

5 + q inch diskettes, crate full

by gagnonr＠vif.com

I have a banker's box full of 5 1/4" diskettes, in their original boxes, DSDD, of various brands. I haven't counted, but probably a few hundred. A few packages unopened. These diskettes were largely used to run back-ups, so didn't get much wear and tear. Would prefer that some classic computer collector rescue these rather than have them end up in landfill. The whole crate is yours for 20$ gagnonr (at sign) vif.com Robin Gagnon, Ph.D. Psychology Department Dawson College

17 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

ACCRC Sealed-Bid Auction Lot #2 Ready

by sellam＠vintagetech.com

Announcing: ACCRC Seald-Bid Auction Lot #2 *** This is the last notice that will be sent to the general VCF mailing list. To ensure you receive further updates regarding this auction, please visit the VCF website and click the "Mailing List" link in the navigation tab on the right-hand side or bottom of any page. Then click on the link to update your contact information and follow the prompts from there to get into your profile. You should then select which announcements you want to receive. If you don't want to receive any more of these auction notices, select "Major announcements and newsletter only". Otherwise, select "Send me all VCF announcements". The Alameda County Computer Resource Center (ACCRC) is forced to liquidate its computer museum due to the current economic climate. The VCF has been contracted to auction off the ACCRC museum to raise needed funds for their non-profit operation. I have put up the second batch of machines at the following URL: http://www.vintage.org/special/2008/accrc/ In order to use the system you must have a VCF Community ID. Getting one is simple: just follow the links and prompts when you visit the URL above and read the instructions. The closing time for this lot is Monday, January 5, at 12:00PM PST. New lots will be posted by noon every Monday on a weekly basis until all items are depleted. At this rate we expect 4-5 more lots. ACCRC Sealed-Bid Auction Lot #2 ## Description -- ------------------------------------------------- 16 Kaypro 2X 24 Kaypro 1 42 Eagle II 43 HP 41CV Calculator 44 JC Penny Video Sports 45 Timex-Sinclair 1000 46 Stratus V101 Dumb Terminal 47 HP 85 48 Tandy Color Computer 3 49 Calcomp Drawing Board 50 Atari 2600 Video Computer System 51 Tandy CCR-82 Computer Cassette Recorder 52 Generic Lunchbox Portable 53 Atari 830 Acoustic Coupler Modem + 850 Interface 54 Magnavox Odyssey2 Console 55 Commodore Amiga 500 56 GRiDPad 1900 57 Compaq Portable 58 Platinum Apple IIe 59 Processor Technology Sol-20 60 Non-Linear Systems Kaypro 10 Check the item listings at the link above for further information and details. All items must be sold. No reasonable offer will be refused. Your purchases will go towards supporting an organization that over the years has provided nearly 20,000 refurbished computers to needy organizations and individuals worldwide. 100% of the proceeds of this auction will go directly to the ACCRC (minus the handling fees, which are covering my time...barely). Best regards, Sellam Ismail Proprietor Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org

17 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

MK11 with 1MB boards

by johnny.billquist＠synap.se

Ok. To start with the short version. Get back when you really want more details. The deal is to fake the MK11 so that it thinks there are four 256KB cards when you have a 1MB card. The memory bus is pretty simple. You have address lines, and card select lines. Address lines are as usual. Card select lines are like chip selects, or whatever you are used to in terminology. It selects which card should respond when address and data and other control signals are on the bus. Usually only one card select line is active at a time. So you have three things to deal with: . Address lines . Card select lines . ECC Address lines are pretty simple. You grab four card select lines, hook a 4-to-2 binary multiplexor in there, and you get A18,A19 from those. This means that four adjacent cards will cause A18,A19 to be generated. Card select lines are even simpler. You just OR the four card select lines together, and output it on one of them. I seem to remember that you don't need to cut anything on the backplane, but check that to be sure. Also, you need a total of four of these special cards in order to get 4 MB working in the MK11, but all four cards will be identical. With that, the hardware side is done. Now, the one part left is a bit more tricky, but it's a hardware problem with a software solution. The MK11 (as well as the 11/750) have ECC memory. In order for the memory to not scream bloody hell when you access it, the syndrome bits must be set right. At power up, the MK11 initialize the syndrome bits for all memory in the box, but it does this in a really clever way. It runs though all addresses and do a write to them, forcing the ECC syndrome bits to be updated. *But*... It does this on all cards in the box in parallell. That is, all card select lines are active at the same time, at this one instance. The problem with that is that (obviously) not all the memory in the 1MB memory board will be reset. By designing your small adapter card the right way, you can get atleast the first 256KB ECC syndrome bits set right. The rest you'll have to do by software instead, before the memory can be used. Otherwise you'll just get parity errors if you try to access that memory. And, normal writes to memory won't work! The memory is 32 bits wide, and a normal write from a PDP-11 will only write 16 bits, so it won't cause the memory to do a blind write and just set the syndrome bits. If you read the documentation for the MK11, you'll find that it actually have a CSR as well, and in that, you can set bits to force writing the syndrome bits and ignore errors. And for the initialization that's what you need to do: set the right bits in the CSR, write to all memory needed, and then reset the CSR again. The last "funny" thing with this is that the CSR isn't easy to access. All accesses to the I/O page in an 11/70 will cause the reference to run out on the Unibus (not surprising). However, the MK11 isn't on the Unibus. :-) The trick is to realize that the Unibus map will always direct the access to the memory bus, even if the final address is in the I/O page. So, you need to setup the Unibus map to point to the I/O page, and then access the MK11 CSR through the Unibus map. After that, you're all done, and the MK11 with 1MB memory boards will be happy. I've done it in the past, and it really not any more complicated than that. Johnny

17 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

4.3BSD Quasijarus

by bqt＠softjar.se

"Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 9:35 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: >> On Dec 26, 2008, at 9:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Also, I should check the memory in it - ISTR it's limited to 5MB. >> I think 5MB is correct. And don't they use the same memory array boards as >> the PDP-11/70? > > Yes... same 1MB boards in the 11/70, 11/730, 11/725 and 11/750. Nope. The MK-11 memory box for the 11/70 (there are others) have the same memory bus as the 11/750, but the MK-11 don't support 1MB boards. Believe me, I know... 256 KB memory boards works fine in both MK-11 and 11/750 though. And if someone *really* have 1MB boards, and an MK-11, and wants to use them, contact me and I can start explaining what you need to do to actually get it to work. But it requires both serious hardware hacking and software fiddling. Johnny

17 years, 8 months

6
7
0 0

new disks, old DEC (was Re: 4.3BSD Quasijarus)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:04 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> >> I've also got a 11/725 that's in good shape except for a few missing >> pieces of sheet metal, but like Ethan I've no working RC25 drive. I don't know about the state of your drive, Bob, but mine is merely missing a cartridge so I can't spin up the fixed platter. For those that might not know, the RC25 is 25MB/25MB removable on one spindle. I think the original idea was that you would put VMS on the internal platter and swap out the cartridge for either backup/restore, and perhaps installs, but in practice, VMS got large enough fast enough that you really needed all 50MB for the OS and a few user dirs. You _can_ fit 5.0 on it, I've seen it, but 4.x is a better fit. >> A UNIBUS SMD controller is an option - there are some small 8" SMD disks that mist >> just fit inside the chassis in place of the RC25 - but a UNIBUS SCSI >> controller would be a better way to go, since it'd be no problem to fit a >> SCSI disk in there. Unfortunately neither SMD nor SCSI UNIBUS controllers >> are easy to come by. > > 5.25" SMD drives do exist; Seagate (and possibly others) made them. I had > a few at one point (1990?) but no more. I know someone who has some but I > doubt he'd turn loose of them. I know I've seen SMD-E drives in 5.25" form-factor, but I don't know if SMD-E drives are happy on an older SMD controller (despite using SMD drives since 1984, I really don't know lots about their limitations - I only ever worked with a couple of combinations that were known to work - I never had to match up settings and cables, etc., on random configurations as I later did plenty of times with MFM and ESDI). Given the drives I do have on hand, I would, of course, love to have a Unibus SCSI controller (or 3-4 or them, really), but they were really, really rare back in the day. Every once in a while, I entertain the idea of turning old COMBOARDs into some form of disk controller (IDE or SCSI would be the easiest), but I never get past the napkin stage of designing. What would be far more practical would be an Unibus ESDI controller, but I don't remember seeing too many of those in the past (what I did see was "lots" of SMD for Unibus and SMD or ESDI for Qbus - all popular for those that were happy enough with non-DEC controllers). It all comes down to drivers. 2BSD I know can handle Emulex and other controllers just fine. I'm not as certain about Ultrix-32 (it seemed to be heavily slanted towards a DEC system disk, at least). I recall a variety of releases of VMS drivers for SI and Emulex controllers, so it would be handy, I'd say, to identify what OS and version targets, seek out ancient driver install kits _then_ go looking for a suitable controller, but I think in practice, it'll be a case of finding a $50 card and then looking for drivers. It's this struggle that makes me start to envision what it would take to turn a COMBOARD into a low-performance disk controller. I say "low performance" because no matter how one would reasonably hack on the existing hardware, and though it has a Unibus DMA engine (the 18-bits of the Unibus are mapped into 1/4 of the memory space of the onboard 68000, so DMA cycles are as easy as a DBcc loop), it's programmed I/O >from the 68000 side, limiting the max transfer speed to about 200KB/sec. You _could_ stick a disk on it, but it really was designed as a communications controller. Since you'd have to write the drivers >from scratch anyway, one might as well start with something that's _meant_ to talk to disks. I only keep coming back to the idea since I have a stack of working boards on the shelf and I have 100% of the engineering info on them (and all the rights). Thinking of COMBOARDs, ISTR someone (more than one?) on the list found a COMBOARD in a machine they picked up some time back. I am still trying to recreate our old test/development environment with simh, but I'm lacking in a way to bootstrap a simulated 11/780 with VMS 4.x. Once I get around the issue, I have backup saveset files made from the last days of Software Results I can restore - all of the source and tools and textual docs are there, and I'd be able to "cut a tape" of the install kit for a variety of OSes and COMBOARD products. This is assuming anyone still wants to talk HASP or 3780 from a real Unibus box, of course. That's what the board did, and it did do it well. The disk-controller idea is just something I kick around from time to time. -ethan

17 years, 8 months

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paging clint wolf

by emu＠e-bbes.com

Could you please contact me via PM ?

17 years, 8 months

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Tandy TRS-80 Model 4

by technobug＠comcast.net

--- On Sat, 12/27/08, Michael B. Brutman <mbbrutman- cctalk at brutman.com> wrote: > I think the best idea at the moment is the conductive ink > used to fix circuit board traces. I'm going to give > that a shot - there is a trip to Rat Shack in my near > future. To repair keyboards in the past I've picked up a cheap calculator (< $1) at the dollar store, cut out the conductive pads from the keys, and pasted them in place of the hardened, non-operational pads. Works for me... CRC

17 years, 8 months

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Morrow documentation

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> Anything on the "Decision I" S100 system would be nice. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/decision http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/cbios

17 years, 8 months

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Brian Brikon 723/4M-QT floppy drive tester documentation

by keithvz＠verizon.net

I've just purchased a Brian Instruments Brikon 723/4M-QT floppy drive tester. I've wanted one of these for quite some time, and was pretty happy to find one on ebay for $20+$23 s/h. Anyone have a manual? Anyone know what the difference would be from 723B vs 723/4M-QT ?? What's the 4M part? The QT? Any info would be helpful! Thanks Keith

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new disks, old DEC (was Re: 4.3BSD Quasijarus)

by bqt＠softjar.se

"Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: >>> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I don't know about the state of your drive, Bob, but mine is merely >>> missing a cartridge so I can't spin up the fixed platter. >> I've got cartridges, but I really, really, (_really_!) doubt that it'll >> make your drive work. RC25s were notoriously unreliable even when they were >> new, and as unsealed (even the fixed platter is open to the air) drives they >> just don't age well at all. I've got two RC25 drives (well, maybe even >> three but that's another story) and none will work. I spent a couple of >> weeks working on them once, and all will now try to spin up and then fault >> with various error conditions (I've since forgotten the error codes - >> sorry). > > I've owned two 11/725s over the years. As I've posted before, I've > never had the problems with the RC25 that others report. I know they > are notorious, but _I_ never had one fail. That being said, of > course, the chances of mine working are now diminished merely because > I've said something. ;-) :-) I haven't even seen an RC25 in 20 years... But they worked back then. But then again, I was working at DEC at the time, and needed them for the work I was doing, so I guess had they failed, I would just have gotten another one. :-) >>> Every once in a while, I entertain the >>> idea of turning old COMBOARDs into some form of disk controller (IDE >>> or SCSI would be the easiest), >> Another option would be to build something that plugs into the LESI (aka >> Aztec) controller and pretends to be a disk. That'd be way cool. But I've >> never seen any documentation on the LESI interface, either electrical or the >> protocol, so I've no idea how hard that would be. As long as the interface >> remains undocumented, I'd guess "really hard". And of course the LESI >> interface wasn't very popular (it was only ever used for the TU81 and the >> RC25) so the potential market, outside of you and me, is limited :-) > > Yes... that would be an interesting way to go, but as you point out, > lack of documentation makes that an unlikely path. Don't the TK50 also use LESI? Or did I just imagine that? >> The important thing is that whatever you come up with has to be close >> enough to a standard MSCP controller so that you can boot it with the >> standard DU bootstrap and so that VMB can talk to it. Unfortunately some of >> the third party SMD controllers weren't really MSCP compatible and needed >> custom bootstraps and VMS drivers (we used to have an SI controller on a 780 >> that fell into this category) - those would be a problem unless a) you can >> also recover the software (difficult), and b) they supported a 11/730 (even >> more unlikely!). The LESI approach at least avoids this problem. > > Agreed. OS driver support is always foremost in my mind when fiddling > with 3rd party disks. We always had to wait for SI to release driver > patches for our SI9900 since a Fuji Eagle is not the same size as any > DEC disk (in our case, they would patch the geometry table in > DRDRIVER.EXE to "oversize" the RM05 entry since we didn't have any > real RM05s on the system). > > It sure would be nice to find a Unibus SCSI card that looked to the > system like a UDA50 - i.e. - true and proper MSCP emulation. I don't > know if there ever was such a product, but the VAXBI ones I saw years > later were $10,000 new. :-( There are/were several. I have a CDU-720/TM. That's CMDs Unibus version of the CQD-220. Very nice. Works about the same way as the CQD too. I also have a Viking one, but that only talks TMSCP (but I'm pretty sure they did exist for disks as well). >> Of course if you only want to run Un*x then you have more flexibility :-) > > True, and I _do_ care about Unix (2BSD for PDP-11 and Ultrix-32 for > VAX), but I also care about RT-11 and pre-6.0 VMS. > > Just thinking back to when I used to do this every day for a living, I > don't recall there ever being an ideal solution, just solutions that > fit enough criteria to be acceptable (Re: price-compatibility-capacity > matrix). If you had money, you paid for DEC disk. If you had a no > budget, you bought 3rd party and decided what features to give up (the > ability to seamlessly install the OS and upgrade at will was almost > always the first thing to go). > > Not all of the "good old days" were as good as we'd like to remember. Sure they were! But as far as disks go, until good MSCP emulating controllers came out, it was always a headache with 3rd party disks and controllers. Johnny

17 years, 8 months

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Merry Newtonsday

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Yule, Midwinter, Winter Solstice or whatever you choose to celebrate to members of the classic computer list and their families. -tony

17 years, 8 months

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4.3BSD Quasijarus

by ken＠seefried.com

FWIW...we ran 4.3 (locally hacked up, of course) on our 11/750s at GaTech in the late 80s and it was really very pleasant. A lot of good research work got done on those boxes (as well as a ton of nethack). KJ

17 years, 8 months

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4.3BSD Quasijarus

by bqt＠softjar.se

"Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> I think 5MB is correct. And don't they use the same memory array >> boards as the PDP-11/70? > > Yes, the 725/730 is limited to 5Mb, although it's tricky to find enough > slots for this if you've got any peripherals. I have a 11/730 that's > fortunate to also have the BA11-K UNIBUS expander box, so I've got room for > 5Mb, but that was an unusual configuration. > > The memory boards used in the 730 are the same as the 11/750 1Mb memory > boards. Fun. I didn't know the 11/730 used the same memory bus. The 11/750 and PDP-11/70 MK-11 box uses the same memory bus, but unfortunately the MK-11 don't support any larger arrays than 256 KB memory boards. Johnny

17 years, 8 months

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(fwd) IMSAI 8080 S100 Computer for sale (fwd)

by labrams＠san.rr.com

Navseacenpac ?

17 years, 8 months

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Video clips

by hachti＠hachti.de

Hi, here some video clips I put on youtube: LGP-30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WaYYNUCWMY H316 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_y944mbczg Calcomp 565 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSEvVxdJNIw LAB-8/e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akvSE5Z474c Best wishes, Philipp :-)

17 years, 8 months

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Weird cardset - any ideas?

by IanK＠vulcan.com

Google is failing me on this one. A while back, I picked up some random boards on ePay. The boards all have the name TRIAD, and they include a passive backplane, what appears to be a central controller with an FPGA and a bunch of RAM, and several boards that each contain two Z80s and ten 8530 serial communication chips. One of the oddest things in the silk screening is the identification of two of the ribbon connectors across the top of these latter boards: "LAMB/DROID, ODD HALF" and "EVEN HALF". (Ironically, I just finished a really good science fiction story regarding a sheep, entitled "The Android's Dream"....) The only hints I've found are that this may be the guts of a PBX or other telecom unit. Does anyone have any insight on this? I'm asking because there are a lot of cool chips on these boards, but before I render them down for spare parts I want to be sure I'm not destroying anything significant. It sure looks like some sort of distributed processing architecture, but I have no idea what it was processing. Thanks for any ideas -- Ian

17 years, 8 months

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IBM PS2 8573-061 available in South Florida

by spc＠conman.org

I recieved an email from someone looking to sell an IBM PS2 8573-061 (he saw my name mentioned in a newpaper article about collecting old computers and contacted me). Asking about the price, here's what he said: > I did a little research on pricing this morning and I see the same unit at > Computer Fusion Inc. for $425 and on eBay for $490. I'd be willing to sell > mine for half price to get it out of my garage. > > I'm thinking of putting it on eBay. Let me know. If anyone is interested, say so and I'll pass on his email address. The person lives in Boyton Beach, Florida and works in Boca Raton (home of the IBM PC). -spc

17 years, 8 months

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Jupiter Ace - PCBs and such

by lynchaj＠yahoo.com

Hi folks, A few of you might remember the Jupiter Ace I had that took a 9V spike to the expansion slot -- and my futile attempts at repairing it. It's been well over four years since I sent it to a listmember who offered to repair it, and all attempts to get the board or the spares I sent with it have failed. At this point, I haven't seen hide nor hair of him in months, although he's apparently still updating his website... So basically I'm the proud (?) owner of the two sections of case, most of the snap-rivets (apparently Maplin sell these, so I might be able to complete the set), the rubber keyboard membrane, documentation, demo tape and a (supposedly working) 16K RAM pack. I've heard rumours of spare, unassembled Jupiter Ace PCBs kicking around; does anyone happen to have one up for grabs? It looks like the only way I'm going to get this thing up and running again would be to build a new mainboard >from scratch, thus that's what I'm planning to do. About the only parts I need are a Z80 CPU and a couple of 74LS logic chips. Only other alternative would be to get a few PCBs made up for it, then build one from scratch on that -- the catch being I haven't had any luck creating a decent track master from the scans of the PCB that I have.... Can anyone assist me in my Quest to Build a Working Jupiter Ace (tm)? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk <http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk> http://www.philpem.me.uk/ -----REPLY----- Hi Phil, If it were me, I would just take the information from the wikipedia page and build your own replacement PCB. The Jupiter Ace appears to be a pretty straight forward Z80 SBC so just build a prototype board and then get KiCAD and design your own PCB. With some luck and patience you probably can design a board that fits right in the original case. You might even be able to recoup your costs of the PCB manufacturing run by selling PCBs or even fully manufactured SBCs to other Jupiter Ace enthusiasts. I'd guess they'd be thrilled to see some new hardware available. Just a suggestion. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch

17 years, 8 months

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wire-wrap supplies

by lynchaj＠yahoo.com

Hi! I am building some prototypes for the N8VEM home brew computing project and using the new ECB Prototyping Board. It works great and it allows wire-wrap and/or point-to-point soldering construction. I am making an ECB serial board as part of another larger development. I have some wire-wrap supplies, sockets, and tools but I can see I am fairly quickly using them. If anyone has any old wire-wrap stuff they don't need anymore and would like to sell for a nominal amount, or just find a good home for where you know they'll get used as intended, please contact me. Any supplies offered will be used as intended not scrapped or sold. I will gladly pay for shipping and/or nominal price. Obviously I would rather use old stock than buy up a bunch of new stuff since I will bet there are lots of people with old wire-wrap stuff they don't use anymore. If anyone can help out I certainly would appreciate it. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch

17 years, 8 months

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HTML sub-document references (was # in href's)

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

> > I wish that I knew a good way in HTML to express offsets from beginning > > of a document. > > Are you taking about an artibrary HTML document that you may not have > control over? Or just for HTML documents you control? If the latter, then > there are two methods---one works for all browsers, and the other for more > modern ones. Just thinking of the PDP-10 archives, it would be real nice if there were a standard way to let someone reference into the middle of a document with a standardized content-based offset reference. For example, someone who is talking about historical LISP's wants to reference something in the MACLISP reference manual pulled from a 1970's tape on my site. The original document was not, of course, in HTML; it was just HTML rendered for web presentation. They can link to the entire HTML-rendered version of the document, but it's hundreds of screens long. It would be nice if there were a way to automatically and context-sensitively reference something in the middle of the document - and in a way such that future renderings of the same document still had the same tags, despite moving to different presentation technologies. Since many of the original documents were formatted to be presented on line printers, or on terminal screens, the concepts of "page" and "line" usually exist. Some of them have originals in RUNOFF-type sources, where there may be some kind of context-referencing system in place, but the details of the kind vary from document to document. So it looks like the best way is to let others index in by original page number, or original line numbers. A future project would probably be a way of turning all the different variants of RUNOFF (and the variants span 3 decades at least, 4 or 5 decades if you count those who still used it in the 90's and 2000's) into HTML with good invariant content-based subreferences. Tim.

17 years, 8 months

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PDP-8 on FPGA project & where is Hans Pufal?

by hachti＠hachti.de

Hi folks, I just found out that someone called Hans Pufal has already designes a PDP-8 on an FPGA device. I've been doing the same this year. My first approach ran on a Xilinx Spartan-3 (200K). It passed all basic tests and was able to run Chekmo. The system could be clocked with about 80MHz using Xilinx ISE's free XST compiler and mapping tools. After realizing that I would like to have a complete 8/e implementation (with more memory), I redesigned the whole thing a lot. The new design seemed more reasonable to me - but gets worse synthesis results. I still expect about 50-70 MHz in the end. The current version is not yet debugged. All memory is kept in FPGA onchip block rams. RAM is capsuled into a pdp8_memory module that can be altered in size (several versions exist) and adapted to different FPGA architectures. I have a kind of SoC-OMNIBUS which supports 2 to n cycle IO operations. Currently I only have a TTY implementation for it. The TTY seems to be 100% compatible to the original. RK8E or similar are planned. Cycle times: * Memory reference 2 * Operate 1 * Jump 1 * ISZ 3 Indirection, auto-index each add one cycle. My core will have a front panel interface that allows attachement of several flavors of front panel logic, including the original functionality and perhaps some more (I hate not being able to directly manipulate AC, for example!). I would like to know if there is any "public" interest in my project. I appreciate every help or ideas to merge my project into one of those nice front panel projects I've seen on the web. And now, please comment! Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de

17 years, 8 months

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Wang 2236 terminals

by wb6blv＠inreach.com

If any list members are looking for Wang terminals, I have several of the 2236 models that I used on an 2200MVP system for many years. In addition, I believe I still have many 5 Mb removable platters for the Winchester drives used on the 2200. Please direct any interest off list to WB6BLV at inreach.com

17 years, 8 months

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