I made a trek over the weekend to collect a VT103 with RX02 drive unit.
With it came around 35+ 8" disks with stuff on them, and a dozen or so
DECtape II tapes for the dual dectape II drives in the VT103.
I have not tried powering on either unit yet.
Inventory of the boards in the VT103 are:
M7264-EB KDF11-F with KEV-11 with onboard 4KW MOS RAM
M8047-CA 16KW RAM
M8044-BB 8KW MOS RAM
M8028
M8029 RX02 flopppy disk controller (18 bit DMA only)
I have a set of floppies with dot matrix'd lables 1/4 through 4/4 for
RT 4.0 "patched". Not sure if these are original DEC. They have DEC
part numbers/etc on them, but nothing that really indicates they are DEC
(no DEC branding/etc). Any idea of these are original ?
Given the CPU and storage, I'd assume RT would be this boxes current
limit, correct ?
Is 2 8" floppy drives enough to make a sysgen'd RT with software and
space to do stuff with ?
Before powering up for the first time, anything I should be aware of
that would be likely weak with the VT103 after years of sitting idle
(attic) ?
(i.e. caps in the power supply are likely to pop)
How are the DECtape II drives ? Do the capstans tend to turn to goo ?
They look OK visiually, though I have not touched them. Any good way
to confirm if they'll hold up or break down before they eat a tape ?
How best to preserve images of the 8" disks ? I understand there are
parallel port RX02 emulators for the system, but nothing that I found
for hooking up the RX02 drive unit to a PC for imaging. I've also read
that the RX02 used a percular format (MFM sector data with FM headers as
I recall). Will things like the Disc Ferret archive images if I had a
more modern 8" floppy drive to use with it ? Suggestions ? Obviously
if I get the system working and I had another M8029 (which I don't), I
could hook up a RX02 emulator and duplicate discs from real ones to the
emulator. Is that the only viable option ?
How best to image the DECtape II tapes ? If the drives work, I
understand they are serial, so is there any source out there for doing
this under Linux/UNIX ? Or again, what I have to do this in some
fashion under RT-11 and get the images off the system ?
What should I look out for, clean, lubricate/etc on the RX02 before
eventually trying it for the first time ?
And lastly, towards the future, I understand one can add the 4 missing
bits on the backplane to go from 18 bits to 22 bits, then an 11/23 cpu
can be used in it. Is this the only cpu board upgrade option viable in
an VT103 ? With that, I'd assume RSTS/E, TSX, RSX, RT, and old Unix
would be options ?
What would be the suggested hard drive options ? Will CQD-22 SCSI work
on the existing CPU ? Will it work with a larger CPU with an upgraded
bus within the VT103 ? I'd like to consider some sort of
SCSI->ATA->flash solution for low power and put it inside the VT103 for
a self contained approach. The mounts are not standard, otherwise ZIP
drives or JAZ drives in place of the DECtape IIs would offer immense
storage and easy switchover to other 11 OSes.
Looking to understand this box more, how to bring it back to operation,
and what I can do with it as is, and improve it a bit towards the future
(no cutting/drilling.... any upgrades have to be able to be removed to
bring it back to original.
Unrelated, anyone know if the VT525 does Regis graphics ?
Thanks in advance,
-- Curt
>Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 11:28 PM, rescue <rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I made a trek over the weekend to collect a VT103 with RX02 drive unit.
>>
>Nice.
>
>
If you don't have a PDP-11 (or at least a Qbus PDP-11),
then this is definitely a good start.
>>With it came around 35+ 8" disks with stuff on them, and a dozen or so
>>DECtape II tapes for the dual dectape II drives in the VT103.
>>
>Cool.
>
>
What is your goal? Is this primarily a hardware project and what
operating system you run is not important? Or do you have specific
software goals?
>>I have not tried powering on either unit yet.
>>
>>Inventory of the boards in the VT103 are:
>>M7264-EB KDF11-F with KEV-11 with onboard 4KW MOS RAM
>>M8047-CA 16KW RAM
>>M8044-BB 8KW MOS RAM
>>M8028
>>M8029 RX02 flopppy disk controller (18 bit DMA only)
>>
>Seems like a good setup.
>
>
An excellent start. The LSI-11 does not support an MMU,
so ONLY UnMapped Monitors can be used. For RT-11,
that means RT11SJ or RT11FB. Since you have 48 KB
of memory (the maximum for RT11FB is 56 KB in any case
unless you use a 4 KB IOPAGE), RT11FB will run very well.
I suggest you check the board number!!!!!!! If M7264-EB is
correct, then according to the field guide from Megan Gentry,
you actually have a KD11 or an LSI-11. BE CAREFUL!!
BDAL18-21 are used VERY differently for the LSI-11
than for the PDP-11/23, etc. Before you use a different CPU
or upgrade to a 22 bit backplane, find out from someone who
knows what, if anything, needs to be done. OTHERWISE,
there may be a release of magic smoke (the euphemism on this
list for a fatal hardware burnup!!!!!!!!!!!). On your backplane,
there may be power on some or all of BDAL18-21. Since
all of the VT103 terminals I have ever seen used at least an
M8186 (PDP-11/23), BDAL18-21 were all UNUSED.
>>I have a set of floppies with dot matrix'd lables 1/4 through 4/4 for RT 4.0
>>"patched". Not sure if these are original DEC. They have DEC part
>>numbers/etc on them, but nothing that really indicates they are DEC (no DEC
>>branding/etc). Any idea of these are original ?
>>
>All of my original DEC floppies had typewritten text on labels with blue DEC
>edges/markings. It sounds likely that these are copies, possibly of original
>DEC distro diskettes.
>
>
I suggest that you attempt to upgrade to at least V05.03 of RT-11
since the features in that version are much better than in V04.00
of RT-11. If that is possible, upgrading all the way to the most recent
version of RT-11 should also be possible and with 48 KB of memory,
RT11FB will run well. You also have the advantage of current manuals
which are available on bitsavers.
Where are you located? If you are restricted to RX02 floppy media,
then someone might be able to copy the needed files.
>>Given the CPU and storage, I'd assume RT would be this boxes current limit,
>>correct ?
>>
>Yes. 28KW is plenty for RT-11. There might be something else you could
>run in that (like RSX-11/S?) but not much.
>
>
With the lack of support for an MMU, you don't have much
choice.
>>Are 2 8" floppy drives enough to make a sysgen'd RT with software and space
>>to do stuff with ?
>>
>>
YES!! But is would be slow and cumbersome with just the
dual RX02. I recommend you stick with DEC distributions
for now until you obtain a hard disk drive. If you really need
to perform a SYSGEN, do so under Ersatz-11 with an
emulated 32 MB (or larger) emulated hard drive, then transfer
all of the files back to your system.
What would be your goal in performing a SYSGEN?
>Sure. It'll be slow to compile FORTRAN, but fine for BASIC or MACRO-11.
>
>
I suggest that FORTRAN IV will be OK as well. Just don't
expect anything to be very fast. If you want FAST, then use
the Ersatz-11 emulator. I estimate that a current 3 GHz Intel
CPU will be about 500 to 1000 times faster (based on being
able to run RT-11 more than 100 times as fast as a PDP-11/93).
>>Before powering up for the first time, anything I should be aware of that
>>would be likely weak with the VT103 after years of sitting idle (attic) ?
>>(i.e. caps in the power supply are likely to pop)
>>
>I will defer this to others. Do you know how recently this was powered up?
>
>
Likewise!!!!!! I would also suggest that you don't run
for hours on end. There is a definite limit to the 5 V
supply and with the age of the VT103, the internal
power supply might be hard pressed. I don't really
know, maybe Tony can comment on how well a DEC
power supply ages????????????
>>How are the DECtape II drives ? Do the capstans tend to turn to goo ?
>>
>Yes.
>
>
ALMOST ALWAYS based on what I have heard.
>> They
>>look OK visually, though I have not touched them. Any good way to confirm
>>if they'll hold up or break down before they eat a tape ?
>>
>I give mine a squeeze. If they deform like jelly beans and leave a black
>stain on your fingers, they are toast. If they don't now, they wiill at
>some point.
>
>
If you want to save the contents and the TU-58 drives
are OK now, do it ASAP.
>>How best to preserve images of the 8" disks ? I understand there are
>>parallel port RX02 emulators for the system, but nothing that I found for
>>hooking up the RX02 drive unit to a PC for imaging. I've also read that the
>>RX02 used a percular format (MFM sector data with FM headers as I recall).
>>Will things like the Disc Ferret archive images if I had a more modern 8"
>>floppy drive to use with it ? Suggestions ? Obviously if I get the system
>>working and I had another M8029 (which I don't), I could hook up a RX02
>>emulator and duplicate discs from real ones to the emulator. Is that the
>>only viable option ?
>>
>I would like to know a good way to do it with a low-memory machine.
>One can use vtserver on a machine with enough RAM to run 2BSD (it's
>a standalone disk image read/write tool that can be used to put UNIX
>on blank hard disks), but AFAIK, the vtserver client requires more
>than 28KW of RAM.
>
>One way I've done in the past uses hardware you didn't say you had.
>You can put 8" floppies on a MicroVAX and use EXCHANGE or
>BACKUP/PHYSICAL.
>
>
Rather than an RX02 emulator, maybe the TU-58 emulator.
These emulators support VERY LARGE emulated TU-58
media and you could copy the 988 blocks (about 1/2 MB)
to your emulated TU-58, then save the file to the hard drive.
Just a suggestion, I have never used the TU-58 emulator myself.
>>And lastly, towards the future, I understand one can add the 4 missing bits
>>on the backplane to go from 18 bits to 22 bits, then an 11/23 cpu can be
>>used in it.
>>
>Yes.
>
>
You can use any M8186 or M8189 (PDP-11/23 CPUs) or
M8192 or M8190 (J11 CPUs) in either an 18 OR 22 bit
backplane. What I do NOT remember is what the 18 bit
backplane requires for the M7264 to run. I seem to remember
that the PDP-11/03 required power on lines BDAL18-21,
so as I suggested (WARNED EMPHATICALLY ABOVE),
CHECK WITH SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT IS
REQUIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>Is this the only cpu board upgrade option viable in an VT103 ?
>>With that, I'd assume RSTS/E, TSX, RSX, RT, and old Unix would be options ?
>>
>Perhaps someone here who has done it could comment, but I'd
>want to check the current draw against what the VT103 PSU
>can provide. You might be able to get away with a KDJ-11 board
>of some kind. With more memory, those other operating
>systems become viable. 2BSD wants at least 1MB, ISTR,
>but 4MB would be grand (if the PSU could handle it). TSX-11
>probably runs in 256MB or less, but it's been years and I"m
>not sure what the requrements are. Older versions of RSX-11
>run in 256KB. A hard disk of some kind becomes
>your next sticking point. You'll have to power the disk
>externally, but even an RLV12 and a an RL02 or two
>is a huge step up from dual RX02 (I made my living for
>a year in the late 1980s with an 11/23 and a single RL01
>running RT-11 v5.x, so you don't need 400MB to do
>interesting things - even 10MB or 30MB is a lot).
>
If your BDAL18-21 lines are unused at the moment (or you can
remove what has been added to them), then I have upgraded
my VT103 which I received with an M8186 (PDP-11/23) with
256 KB of memory. Other than identifying the exact points to
solder the extra wires (you will need lead based solder since this
is a VERY OLD backplane), it is very easy to use insulated wire
wrap wire (either 28 or 30 is probably OK) and strip the
insulation ONLY where the wire needs to be soldered to the
backplane. If you have a 4 x 4 backplane which allows 8 dual
boards, each wire needs 8 solder points. Start by stripping the
insulation as far back as possible (I suggest about 2 ", but maybe
Tony can elaborate) from the end if the wire and solder the first
point. Then cut the insulation (WITHOUT CUTTING THE WIRE)
for the exact distance needed to the second solder point and squeeze
the insulation as far away from the second solder point on the wire
as possible. Solder and repeat 6 more times with the first wire.
If you hold the wire carefully just beyond the solder point and very
gently press the bare wire to the next solder point (I suggest - Tony
please comment - with flux already on the bare wire), then with the
other hand heat the bare wire and below it the solder point until the
solder melts, that could be quite sufficient if you immediately remove
the heat and allow the joint to harden as you prevent any movement
of the wire relative to the solder joint. It is probably best if you
completely remove the backplane before you start.
>>What would be the suggested hard drive options ? Will CQD-22 SCSI work on
>>the existing CPU ? Will it work with a larger CPU with an upgraded bus
>>within the VT103 ?
>>
>I think both of those are true. I haven't tried running a Q22 disk
>interface in a Q18 backplane, so
>
If you mean a CQD-220M or CQD-220TM in a 22 bit backplane,
I agree. I have not ever placed a CQD-220TM in an 18 bit backplane
or with a PDP-11/03. Since a CQD-220TM is probably still fairly
expansive, a PDP-11/23 with at least 1 MB of memory is probably
a reasonable companion for a CQD-220TM.
>>I I'd like to consider some sort of SCSI->ATA->flash
>>solution for low power and put it inside the VT103 for a self contained
>>approach. The mounts are not standard, otherwise ZIP drives or JAZ drives
>>in place of the DECtape IIs would offer immense storage and easy switchover
>>to other 11 OSes.
>>
>A SCSI interface and a ZIP or JAZ drive should be fine, for as
>long as your media lasts.
>
>One thing to watch for is your operating system of choice must
>support MSCP disk to use a SCSI controller. This means RT-11 v5
>not v4, AFAIK, but others on this list probably know detailed
>specifics off the top of their head. 2.9BSD does not support
>MSCP (but can be patched) and 2.11BSD does not support
>processors that don't have split I&D (like your CPU or the KDF-11
>in an 11/23 - you have to move up to a KDJ-11 to run 2.11BSD
>on a Qbus box)
>
If you can upgrade to at least a PDP-11/23 and a CQD-220TM, then
a 3 1/2" 50 pin SCSI drive can use the power directly from the VT103.
You can solder the wires to the board while also distributes the power to
the TU-58 and solder the pins for a power plug for the 3 1/2" hard drive.
At one point, I upgraded a number of VT103 systems to use an ST412
(10 MG hard disk drive) on a 3rd party MSCP controller and I mounted
the ST412 (5 1/4" hard drive) just below the tube. There was just enough
power for everything with that 3rd party MFM controller. The RQDX2
would have used too much power and, in any case, does not have a boot
ROM which was needed with the M8186.
>>Looking to understand this box more, how to bring it back to operation, and
>>what I can do with it as is, and improve it a bit towards the future (no
>>cutting/drilling.... any upgrades have to be able to be removed to bring it
>>back to original.
>>
>Get it up and running RT-11 from RX02 and see about those upgrades
>you were thinking about. Perhaps someone who has loaded up
>a VT103 with newer boards can tell you what does work. I have
>a VT103 myself but haven't tried maxing it out. I have other Qbus
>boxes I can do that on.
>
If you upgrade from an 18 bit backplane to a 22 bit
backplane, I don't think removing the extra wires would
be considered to bring it back to original. Since everyone
has their own definition, you decide. My personal preference
to have more than 256 KB of memory would outweigh
any concern.
Since the very first PDP-11/23 that I owned was a
VT103, the opportunity to upgrade was taken VERY
seriously and done as soon as I could purchase the
required parts. After I received a BA23 box, I stopped
using the VT103, but it remains a very important (and
still very much appreciated) member of my PDP-11 systems.
Jerome Fine
Hi all,
I'm currently looking for a bit of documentation. I can probably run RT-11
V03b on my 11/10, but to my surprise I cannot find a complete docset for
that version of RT-11. Does anyone have it in digital form?
Next to that, there's a hype going on APL (don't ask me why) and I caught
the virus as well. The documentation that comes with the SIGtape providing
APL/11 for RT-11 tells me (it really does) to go get (quote): "For DIGITAL
software documentation order the "APL Programmer's Reference Manuel
AA-5076A-TC APL-11/RSTS/E V1".
THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS, WE MEAN RSTS/E.
".
Anybody have AA-5076A-TC digitally? I cannot seem to find it anywhere.
Thanks in advance and with kind regards,
reiche
> The RICM will use a PDP-8/L for a demonstration Sunday night. FOCAL is
> loaded and running.
>
> Does anyone have some FOCAL programs that we could use for demonstrations?
>
> --
> Michael Thompson
Michael,
Try http://www.pdp8online.com/htdig/search.shtml and search for
"focal" and make your pick. There are a lot of programs to choose
from.
Bob
Hi,
I'm looking for any kind of document and software for the Dietz Mincal 523
minicomputer, or anecdotes, user reports etc.
I don't expect too much feedback since this is an obviously very rare
German minicomputer from about 1970; it is a micro-programmed 19 bit
architecture with shared microcode/core memory.
But asking doesn't hurt ;-)
Christian
The RICM will use a PDP-8/L for a demonstration Sunday night. FOCAL is
loaded and running.
Does anyone have some FOCAL programs that we could use for demonstrations?
--
Michael Thompson
>
> The RICM will use a PDP-8/L for a demonstration Sunday night. FOCAL is
> loaded and running.
>
> Does anyone have some FOCAL programs that we could use for
demonstrations?
>
> --
Here is a page with some walk-though screen dumps of OS interaction running
and listing PFOCAL programs, including Lunar Lander
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=524
Bill
Does anyone have the address of Guy's storage units in Santa Clara? I've
tried contacting Guy, but I haven't been able to get in touch with him.
Thanks,
Doug
>* On Mon, 7 Oct 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
*>*
*>>* BTW, there's still stuff to be claimed before it goes to be scrapped
including a lot of uVAXen (including a VAX 4000/700 I just unearthed
today), uPDP-11s, 11/34s, 11/44s, a Sun 4/110, DEC Rainbows and a DEC Robin
that I "discovered". The final weekend for picking this stuff up is 10/19
and 10/20. I'm taking the final load up on 10/26. Anything after that
will be scrapped the following week (there's some exceptions for folks that
are picking up/shipping some *big* stuff...they know who they are and don't
have to panic). So if anyone wants anything let me know (no I won't ship
anything...it defeats the purpose).
*>>*
*>*
*>* Will you ship /parts/? I could use some parts of some of those
systems, but I'm just not in the area or I'd pick them up myself. SCSI
disk drive, VAXstation RAM, some low-capacity SCSI drives, and a VAXstation
tape drive and I'd be happy. ;)
*
Hello, folks!
Hope you all had a very merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, or whatever you
celebrated! Also, best wishes for the New Year, which will be... in
around two and a quarter hours in my neck of the woods :)
It's been a while since I posted anything related to DiscFerret. Rest
assured, I have not been resting on my laurels (Balrog and Lord
Nightmare have made certain of that!). In fact, I've just released a
shiny new toy for all you DiscFerret owners... Well, two actually!
Microcode Release 0026 and C-API 1.3!
New in these releases...:
- Microcode:
- Added a clock divider to the Data Acquisition core. Now you can
specify how much timing resolution you need -- 80ns (12.5MHz), 40ns
(25MHz), 20ns (50MHz) or the full 10ns (100MHz). When set to 40ns, the
DiscFerret matches the Kryoflux for read speed (84 tracks double-sided
in one minute and 45 seconds). At full resolution, it still only takes
three minutes and 25 seconds to image the same disc.
- Completely rewrote the data sync-word detector. All the ripple
clocks and clock-domain crossings are gone, and the data separator is
FAR more reliable. The capture and lock range is about 20% of the
nominal data rate (!), which is more than adequate for most disc drives.
The sync word may be up to 16 bits long, and can also include "don't
care" bits!
- Miscellaneous fixes to the data separator configuration (it was
set for a 16MHz clock, but provided with a 20MHz clock. Despite this, it
still worked fine!)
- C/C++ API
- Support added for the new clock divider register.
Files are all downloadable from the usual place --
http://www.discferret.com/
(or more specifically:)
http://www.discferret.com/wiki/DiscFerret:Downloads
And you can, as always, browse the source code here --
http://hg.discferret.com/
On the cards for the New Year --
- Work has started on a new, simplified API. This will make its grand
d?but some time in the new year.
- I'm working on improving the accuracy of the INDEX pulse storage
logic. When finished, this will improve the accuracy of INDEX timing
measurements to match the data timing measurements! (This is a minimum
of a factor of 8 improvement over the KryoFlux analyser, and a factor of
128 improvement over the current microcode release!)
Special thanks for this release are due to:
Rich Thomson,
Karsten Scheibler,
Sarayan,
Balrog,
Lord_Nightmare,
... and anyone else I've forgotten!
Thanks!
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
As per subject, does anyone happen to know the system board edge connector
pinouts for an Apple LC 520? I picked up a few useful boards which were
destined for recycling from someone yesterday, and decided to save the
Apple board too, more out of curiosity than anything (it's not obvious what
machine it was from, but I'd noticed the '030).
It might be fun one rainy day to try feeding it power - assuming I can find
out what the power requirements* are, and assuming that the video signals
(which would have gone to the built-in CRT's analog board) are something
sane. [I have no VRAM module for it, but looks like it has a banks of 1MB
and 4MB on the PCB, so perhaps the 1MB is for regular framebuffer, and the
VRAM socket is only for expansion to allow higher resolution or color depth]
* main power rails are likely possible to work out, but of course there
will be soft-start and power-good type stuff to worry about.
cheers
Jules
