test-drb September 2007

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

220 participants
406 discussions

Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups?

by jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to

This request is in respect of support for 20 year old DEC computer software and hardware, specifically for running RT-11 on PDP-11 hardware. So I hope it can be considered to be on topic I am using a newsgroups server that allows free read only access, but once or twice a year, I would like to reply. The newsgroups that are moderated allow me to send an e-mail directly to the moderator who then posts the e-mail to that newsgroup. I would like to post to vmsnet.pdp-11 and alt.sys.pdp11 - can anyone suggest a server that is available? By the way, I only use Netscape under Windows 98SE since other browsers don't seem to offer the same flexibility in saving incoming and outgoing e-mails. If either of these two newsgroups allow an e-mail to be sent to a moderator to then have that e-mail posted to the newsgroup, I would appreciate the e-mail address. I have heard that google allows posts to newsgroups, but the interface is so impossible to use as compared with Netscape that I have not even tried. Any suggestions would be appreciated! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine

17 years, 3 months

Apps with other functions, was: Re: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups?

by joachim.thiemann＠gmail.com

On 17/09/2007, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Golan Klinger wrote: > It actually got me wondering when apps started really pushing (or forcing) > functionality on users outside of their core reason for existing (such as a > web browser trying to be an email client, or an email client trying to be a > usenet client etc.) > > I suspect that aspect *is* on topic :-) Netscape circa mid-90's is one of the > first culprits I can think of, but doubtless there were others long before > then? (Note I'm not talking about small bundled utility apps or functionality > which is related to the central purpose of an application - more the cases > where something that was recognised as doing one job suddenly branched out and > started offering something completely different) How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, etc... Somewhat older that Netscape. Caused more flamewars, too. (Hope I'm not starting one here!!!) Joe.

17 years, 3 months

Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c)

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:23:01 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net> Subject: Re: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) >On Wednesday 19 September 2007 03:55, M H Stein wrote: >> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:56:31 -0400 >> From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net> >> Subject: Re: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) >> >> <snip> (Re: Cromemco System 3) >>> >>>It's been a really long time since I played with it, but I remember the >>> rest of the system working okay, more or less. There's a CPU board and >>> a 64K RAM board in there, besides the FDC (which if I'm remembering >>> right also has the printer port on it). Does 16FDC sound right? >> >> 16FDC sounds right but this takes us back to the original topic: that DB-25 >> is the RS-232 console port, not a printer. >I seem to remember a whole bunch of DB25 cutouts in the rear panel of that >machine... For the real printer port(s) and extra RS-232 ports for I/O or multi-users. <snip> >Speaking of which, I just discovered handy a loose-leaf binder >labeled "Cromemco Systems Documentation" which has everything I might >possibly need in there, including data on all the cards, the drive, and so >forth, including schematics and other pertinent technical details. Wouldn't >it be nice to get that sort of info with other stuff! :-) Cromemco were one of the most professional of the computer makers of the day and sold many systems to labs, educational and government users, especially the army, navy & air force, and a big multi-box installation at the NYSE IIRC; mind you, their prices reflected that... Also one of the few who, at least in name, are still around... m

17 years, 3 months

Help identifying a PDP-11

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Hi I take it you are also in said area. I'm Near READING so M4->M3->M25 an hour and a bit would do it! (see direct email re 11/94's) The 11/94 has a short Qbus followed by a unibus backplane. It needs a KDJ11 but the -B from an 11/84 is rumoured to run. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell Sent: 20 September 2007 09:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 Hi, Its near Reigate in Surrey. If we can get video that would be great, could go on my www.pdp11.co.uk site. Is the 11/94s CPU UNIBUS or does it have a QBUS backplane for CPU and a qbus/unibus convertor? If its QBUS would an 11/73 CPU be of any use, have a lot of them in my spares stack. Cheers, Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 > Hi > Now that sounds interesting. Where is it? > The reason I ask is I have a retired friend who has more video equipment > than the BBC. > A nice video of it getting craned out would interesting. > A couple of points re craning. > If there are no eye bolt holes in top of the cabs you need to have a > strong base to put it on and then a stretcher bar four rope sling down > to the base. Any side pressure will collapse the cab and crush anything > inside. I'd tend towards pulling the drives (and anything else fragile) > out of the cab. > > The fact that there's no lights and switches front panel is probably due > trying to stop the end user doing something nasty. > If I read the runes correctly on other posts then light and switch front > panels are around and are a straight swap. > > I have no fewer than four 11/94's but the KD11J CPU boards were stolen > before I got to the machines. > An 11/84 CPU (KDJ11-B) + Memory would do but I cant find one at a good > price. > > Rod > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell > Sent: 18 September 2007 20:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General > Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > > Hi, > > Yes it was indeed a DIBOL based machine. I think it was used as a > business administration system of some sort, possibly for the printing > industry. > > When I viewed the machine, it was deeply buried under boxes of paperwork > and so I've not had a chance to fully inspect the CPU cabinet. The > reason for having to crane it out is that the machine is on the first > floor of the office building it is stored in and I decided the few > hundred pounds it would cost to hire a crane were considerably less than > the back surgery I would require if I attempted to get it down the > constricted stair cases I was faced with. Plus I could get it out in one > piece rather than having to dismantle. Luckily the build has a nice > large (reinforced) flat roof, so should be a case of wheeling it out and > craning it down. > > I'm still suspecting the machine to be an 11/34 as I couldn't see any > sign of a full switched console so suspect there is a keypad hidden away > somewhere. Regardless it will be a nice machine to add to my growing > haul of PDPs and VAXes (upto 40 now) > > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might > be worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc > > Thanks, > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rod Smallwood" <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:38 PM > Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 > > >>A couple of other things have come to mind. >> >> DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running > under >> OS/8, RT11 or VMS >> >> They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often >> included training, installation >> and maintenance. >> >> There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or >> DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. >> >> *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD > Arithmetic >> >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa >> Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 >> >>> Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to >>> get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean >>> packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about >>> 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs >> here: >>> http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) >> >>> I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does >>> anyone have any background information on them? >> >>> Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no >>> toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to >>> these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. >> >> That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will >> find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote >> console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC >> maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm >> sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the >> maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find >> that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. >> >> Tim. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

17 years, 3 months

UK PDP11 oweners

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Me for two (11/94's) Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 19 September 2007 23:10 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: UK PDP11 oweners > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? > Might be worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc Me, for one. I've got (from what I rememebnr (!)) : PD11/10 (5.25" box) PDP11/45 PDP11/34 (3 off) PDP11/24 PDP11/44 LSI11 MINC-11 MIOC23 York Box (BAA11V + SBC21 + RAM + I/O) At least one other Q-bus machine -tony

17 years, 3 months

Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

As Student Apprentice in the 1960's I rewired a big (Great Western Railway) wartime eletromechanical PABX. Now that was interesting. You could see the precursors to modern computing. There really was relay logic in there. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 19 September 2007 22:01 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I never could understand how they managed to do all of that with what > was basically electromechanical stuff... Some very tricky relays. That is why you have 1 for long distance. I had a book about that -- 1940's ( but it got lost ) and the big thing was automatic dialing. I am not sure but I think on the old non dial phones you could even back then dial your number by tapping the hook on the phone. Ben.

17 years, 3 months

Help identifying a PDP-11

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Hi Now that sounds interesting. Where is it? The reason I ask is I have a retired friend who has more video equipment than the BBC. A nice video of it getting craned out would interesting. A couple of points re craning. If there are no eye bolt holes in top of the cabs you need to have a strong base to put it on and then a stretcher bar four rope sling down to the base. Any side pressure will collapse the cab and crush anything inside. I'd tend towards pulling the drives (and anything else fragile) out of the cab. The fact that there's no lights and switches front panel is probably due trying to stop the end user doing something nasty. If I read the runes correctly on other posts then light and switch front panels are around and are a straight swap. I have no fewer than four 11/94's but the KD11J CPU boards were stolen before I got to the machines. An 11/84 CPU (KDJ11-B) + Memory would do but I cant find one at a good price. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell Sent: 18 September 2007 20:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 Hi, Yes it was indeed a DIBOL based machine. I think it was used as a business administration system of some sort, possibly for the printing industry. When I viewed the machine, it was deeply buried under boxes of paperwork and so I've not had a chance to fully inspect the CPU cabinet. The reason for having to crane it out is that the machine is on the first floor of the office building it is stored in and I decided the few hundred pounds it would cost to hire a crane were considerably less than the back surgery I would require if I attempted to get it down the constricted stair cases I was faced with. Plus I could get it out in one piece rather than having to dismantle. Luckily the build has a nice large (reinforced) flat roof, so should be a case of wheeling it out and craning it down. I'm still suspecting the machine to be an 11/34 as I couldn't see any sign of a full switched console so suspect there is a keypad hidden away somewhere. Regardless it will be a nice machine to add to my growing haul of PDPs and VAXes (upto 40 now) Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might be worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc Thanks, Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:38 PM Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 >A couple of other things have come to mind. > > DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running under > OS/8, RT11 or VMS > > They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often > included training, installation > and maintenance. > > There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or > DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. > > *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD Arithmetic > > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa > Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > >> Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to >> get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean >> packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about >> 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs > here: >> http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > >> I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does >> anyone have any background information on them? > >> Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no >> toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to >> these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. > > That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will > find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote > console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC > maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm > sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the > maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find > that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. > > Tim. > > > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

17 years, 3 months

Help identifying a PDP-11

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

A couple of other things have come to mind. DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running under OS/8, RT11 or VMS They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often included training, installation and maintenance. There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD Arithmetic Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to > get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean > packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about > 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs here: > http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does > anyone have any background information on them? > Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no > toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to > these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. Tim.

17 years, 3 months

Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever

by aijones2＠bsu.edu

> > I don't see why not; serial comms (over whatever medium) connecting two > machines is still 'networking' in my book. I the case you mention it may well > be only point-to-point rather than "lots of machines on the same line", but I > still think it qualifies. > Then let's go a step further. When/where did the first internetworking gear come onto the market? Not multi-protocol routing, just routing in general: segmented networks with nodes that moved traffic towards remote nodes on the behalf of local ones.

17 years, 3 months

PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc]

by dm561＠torfree.net

-------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:40:49 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: Re: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] On 15 Sep 2007 at 13:02, M H Stein wrote: > Funny how on the one hand I read the sentiment here that people should be required > to pass a course in advanced computer science before being allowed to plug in a > computer, and then that they should be so simple to hook up that a retarded^H^H^H^H > mentally-challenged blind^H^H^H vision-impaired chimpanzee could do it; > just no pleasing some folks... I dunno, Mike. I'm generally capable of operating most any computer, but my eyesight is terrible (and not getting any better with age). I'd sure as heck would like the assurance that whatever plug I'm sticking into a receptacle at least isn't going to result in "magic smoke" (see my earlier comment on wall wart perversion) even if I didn't quite read the label on the box correctly. ------------Reply: I know exactly what you mean about eyesight, so I probably wasn't very clear... What I meant was that of all the things that *are* dumb like the PC printer connector and Tony's AC plugs "criminally" used for other purposes, the PS/2 mouse & keyboard ambiguity is as harmless as L & R audio connectors. Mind you, IBM didn't "invent" that printer connector; lots of S-100 boxes used DB-25s for RS-232 *and* parallel printers and, what's even worse, they were usually all female; almost makes sense, actually, since there were stock DB-25M<>CEN cables around at the time whereas you usually wound up making your own serial cables anyway. And wasn't a male connector a sort of "standard" for DTE equipment? Nevertheless, since Compaq could use the same port for a mouse or a keyboard, I can't see either why when there are two separate ports they couldn''t be interchangeable. Some modern PCs even have interchangeable audio connectors; you can plug in line in and out either way and it sorts out which is which. And don't talk to me about wall-warts; what's really annoying is when the equipment doesn't state the voltage & polarity. m

17 years, 3 months

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test-drb September 2007