Is there anyone with any experience of these machines? If so there might be
some
work available providing some initial support or training to a company
that needs to keep these going!
Contact me at swebb at cix.co.uk
Simon
>
>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed
> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:14:15 -0700 (PDT)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
-------snip---------->
>> I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel
>>MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used
>>a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800
>>with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM
>
>Hi
> Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first
>S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a
>MDS-800.
>Dwight
No. Most (if not all) of the first S100 system had front pannels
(ALTAIR AND IMSAI Were the first!). The few that didn't had some form
of rom monitor to simulate a fronpannel via TTY such as Poly-88,
Processor tech SOL and others.
I have the history of being Altair owner SN00200 an early one with a
full set of warts and germs. I was in the unenviable position by the end of
January 1975 of having an assembled and debugged machine with 4k and NO
software. Needless to say I was very heads up for software of any kind.
>><http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds-800/frnt-pan.jpg>. The 1702 is mapped
>>into and out of the memory space by the BOOT switch on the MDS front panel.
>>Allison's description is dead on.
Should be with the hours spent using MDS800 and having one they are familiar.
>>Dave Mabry is the expert of the Intel MDS
>>and he can provide more details about how they're booted and the BIOS table
>>is loaded. FWIW Gary had a contract to write PL/M for Intel and wrote CPM
>>as a file handling system for use in developing PL/M. He offered Intel CPM
>>but they didn't want it since they were working on their own OS.(BIG
>>Mistake!) Intel's OS was released as ISIS and was only used in the Intel
>>MDS systems (although I've heard they did have a PC version for a PC based
>>MDS). ISIS is very crude compared to CPM.
>>
>> MDS 800 <http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds-800/mds-800.htm>
>>
>> You might also want to take a look at 'CP/M and a brief history lesson'
>>here; <http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds/mds.htm>. I used to have the exact
>>quotes from Gary but unfortunately the link to them is now dead.
Good synopsis.
Allison
Rob wrote:
>FWIW, the reply-to is ROT13'd, an elderly way of hiding text on usenet, and
>translates to "bevakupf at sbcglobal.net (rot13)" the same email address as
>quoted in the body of the email.
<slaps forehead>
Thanks... busy day.
--
- Mark
210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995
>From: "Allison" <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net>
>
>>
>>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed
>> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
>> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:14:15 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>
>-------snip---------->
>
>>> I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel
>>>MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used
>>>a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800
>>>with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM
>>
>>Hi
>> Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first
>>S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a
>>MDS-800.
>>Dwight
>
>No. Most (if not all) of the first S100 system had front pannels
>(ALTAIR AND IMSAI Were the first!). The few that didn't had some form
>of rom monitor to simulate a fronpannel via TTY such as Poly-88,
>Processor tech SOL and others.
Hi
What does a front panel have to do with what I stated?
I am familiar with the MDS800 having worked for
Intel and written both assembly and PLM80 for it.
I was also responsible for testing of the 1036 card
( the PLL used in the M2FM board set ). So, I do understand
the disk I/O of the MDS800. I made no claim as to
how a MDS800 works( please read previous mails ).
As I corrected, I was not intending to make a claim about
the first ever CP/M ( again please read previous mail in
context ) but felt that from the context of the conversation
that we were talking about S-100 machines. I tried to clarify
this misconception that I was talking about the MDS800 in
a previous mail ( again please read ), I was not talking about
the MDS800.
All I'm saying is that I was told that this particular
DMA based interface was used for the first implementation
on the S-100 of CP/M. This was told me by another fellow
many years ago. I don't recall the fellows name but he
seemed at the time to be honest enough since he had nothing
to sell or gain by such a comment. He claimed to have some
involvement in that process. If you don't like that you
can just shoot me and be done with it but, please, don't
put words in my mouth.
Dwight
>
>I have the history of being Altair owner SN00200 an early one with a
>full set of warts and germs. I was in the unenviable position by the end of
>January 1975 of having an assembled and debugged machine with 4k and NO
>software. Needless to say I was very heads up for software of any kind.
>
>>><http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds-800/frnt-pan.jpg>. The 1702 is mapped
>>>into and out of the memory space by the BOOT switch on the MDS front panel.
>>>Allison's description is dead on.
>
>Should be with the hours spent using MDS800 and having one they are familiar.
>
>>>Dave Mabry is the expert of the Intel MDS
>>>and he can provide more details about how they're booted and the BIOS table
>>>is loaded. FWIW Gary had a contract to write PL/M for Intel and wrote CPM
>>>as a file handling system for use in developing PL/M. He offered Intel CPM
>>>but they didn't want it since they were working on their own OS.(BIG
>>>Mistake!) Intel's OS was released as ISIS and was only used in the Intel
>>>MDS systems (although I've heard they did have a PC version for a PC based
>>>MDS). ISIS is very crude compared to CPM.
>>>
>>> MDS 800 <http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds-800/mds-800.htm>
>>>
>>> You might also want to take a look at 'CP/M and a brief history lesson'
>>>here; <http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds/mds.htm>. I used to have the exact
>>>quotes from Gary but unfortunately the link to them is now dead.
>
>Good synopsis.
>
>Allison
>
>
>From: "Gooijen, Henk" <GOOI at oce.nl>
>
>> Gooijen, Henk wrote:
>>
>> >Hi all,
>> >I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface
>> >to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built
>> >a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793.
>> >I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data
>> >sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40.
>> >I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not*
>> >need the +12V.
>> >I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all"
>> >major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not
>> >have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ?
>> >I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as
>> >the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself!
>> >
>> > thanks,
>> >- Henk, PA8PDP.
>> >
>> >
>> Has it really be the 1793? Or might not be a 2797 design (2797 is
>> also available from BG micro) from www.swtpc.com/mholley
>> (New design for SS30 FDC) is more appropriate for "new developments",
>> given that it doesn't need that really ugly external data separator
>> logic which always prevented me from building FDC boards (a usable
>> separator chip is more difficult to find than the FDC chip, and the
>> alternatives with a TTL-monoflop grave is not even more attractive).
>>
>> Actually, what is your real problem? You already have 12V for the
>> floppy drive, so what prevents you from feeding it into pin #40 of
>> the 1793? +12V on an otherwise +5V board is not more ugly than a
>> +25V source on an eprommer board, or +12/-5V for 2708/4116 memory
>> boards.
>>
>> Holger
>
>Thanks for the reply Holger.
>Your remark about the +12 for the FDC // +25 for an EPROM programmer
>is correct. I know of the existence of the 2797, but have totally none
>experience with it what-so-ever. The link that you gave is nice, but
>I am not sure I can *copy* the design ... Further, I have several 1793
>here, so that is cheap for me. I would need to buy the 2797 and ship
>it to The Netherlands (sources here are not as good as in the US).
>The data separator I use with the 1793 is more stable, and built with
>a VCO (LS629, LS393 and LS153).
>I will look into the 2797 a bit more, but I guess I'll go with the 1793.
>I saw in the diagram of the 2797 that it has also 2 trimpots for the
>adjustment ... Not sure yet ...
>
> thanks,
>- Henk, PA8PDP.
>
>
Hi
The 2791/93 are a more flexable choice than the 2795/97.
>From my understanding of the spec sheet, the 2791/93 can
do both 5.25 and 8 inch without changing external parts.
The 2795/97 requires different clock frequencies to do
this.
You give up the side select but as was mentioned before,
I suspect that one could double up the direction bit
to also do side select or just have a port to do that.
Dwight
>From: "Joe R." <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com>
>
>At 02:40 PM 8/27/05 -0700, Dwight wrote:
>>>From: "Allison" <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed
>>>> From: "Brian Knittel" <brian at quarterbyte.com>
>>>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:01 -0700
>>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>>>
>>>>Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>Does anybody out there know for certain when the
>>>>term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall,
>>>>and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that
>>>>he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what
>>>>he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently?
>>>
>>>The term BIOS is older, early '77. It came into use with
>>>V1.3 I think and for cetertain in V1.4.
>>>
>>>>Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M
>>>>floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how
>>>>did CP/M machines boot? Was there a dedicated
>>>>boot ROM that was used just for startup, and
>>>>then the BIOS took over? I had one back in
>>>>the day, but I sure can't remember this detail.
>>>
>>>The easy answer is yes. Tranditional CP/M systems the
>>>CCP/BDOS and BIOS were on the first two reserved tracks
>>>of the floppy (8" SSSD) and those were loaded by a boot
>>>rom.
>>
>>Hi
>> My understanding was that the first ones had no ROM
>>and used a DMA controller that loaded bootstrapping
>>code from the first sector on reset. I have such a
>>controller on my machine. All RAM, no ROMs.
>>Dwight
>>
>
> I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel
>MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used
>a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800
>with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM
Hi
Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first
S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a
MDS-800.
Dwight
><http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds-800/frnt-pan.jpg>. The 1702 is mapped
>into and out of the memory space by the BOOT switch on the MDS front panel.
>Allison's description is dead on. Dave Mabry is the expert of the Intel MDS
>and he can provide more details about how they're booted and the BIOS table
>is loaded. FWIW Gary had a contract to write PL/M for Intel and wrote CPM
>as a file handling system for use in developing PL/M. He offered Intel CPM
>but they didn't want it since they were working on their own OS.(BIG
>Mistake!) Intel's OS was released as ISIS and was only used in the Intel
>MDS systems (although I've heard they did have a PC version for a PC based
>MDS). ISIS is very crude compared to CPM.
>
> MDS 800 <http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds-800/mds-800.htm>
>
> You might also want to take a look at 'CP/M and a brief history lesson'
>here; <http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/mds/mds.htm>. I used to have the exact
>quotes from Gary but unfortunately the link to them is now dead.
>
> Joe
>
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>Subject: Re: WD 1793 FDCs for sale
> From: Jeff Walther <trag at io.com>
> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:17:18 -0500
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
>
>>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:18:14 +0100
>>From: Philip Pemberton <philpem at dsl.pipex.com>
>
>>Speaking of the 765s, I still need to build an MFM data separator...
>
>Is there any reason not to just track down some WD92C32 or WD92C16?
>I think SMSC (FDC prefix) sold some similar chips too.
The construction of a dtat sep is fairly easy and there was a design on
the net someone else posted thats right from the Apnotes.
It's a 7474/74174/and 32x8 fuse rom(needs to be faster than 50NS)
>I did see a nice lot of WD92C16s on Ebay a year or two ago. I think
>that will work as long as you need to read 1.44MB floppies. But I
>haven't seen any more of them since then.
The 9216 is a versatile data sep. It will do ALL data rates. All you
have to do is provide the correct clock for the rate(s).
Another though scarce is the 9229, thats the 9216+ write precomp hardware.
It also works for all rates. The 9239 is an enhanced version.
SMSc chips in oder by appearance:
Data seps 9216, 9236
Data sep and clock generator (with srite precomp logic) 9229, 9238, 9239, 9249
Those with "C" in the middle are Cmos version of the Nmos/Hmos originals.
Allison
In santa fe. Was up at Los Alamos Sales. Same old gear is there
still available for anyone willing to drive the kilomile (from
generally anywhere).
Got an immaculate Kaypro II in blue Kaypro zip/padded carry case
for $50. Boot ROM politely asks for boot disk, alas I have none,
but no smoke leaked out. Need to find diskettes when I get back!
Got a TI Programmer calculator, near-new condition. $20. Portable
gimcrack.
I left behind tubes of new/unused ceramic 2708's and 2716's (both
Intel) and WD 2511's. The latter is some sync comm chip, right?
I can't say for sure if Gary was the first to use the term BIOS, but it was
being used by Gary in CP/M long before 1978 -- I'd say in late 1975,
probably, and definitely by 1976. A friend bought a copy of CP/M in 1975 (I
know it was 1975, because I was in Atlanta at the time with the friend (who
happens to be Dale Heatherington, a partner in the modem firm of DC Hayes,
for whom the "Heatherington patents" were named), and I moved from Atlanta
to Charlotte in late 1975). In 1976, Imsai was offering CP/M version 1.3
with the dual-Calcomp disk system. All of the documentation for all of
these used the term BIOS, as did the source code for the BIOS' supplied with
CP/M on disk (for the Intel development system). The BIOS resided on disk,
as part of the system tracks, it was the last 7 sectors of the 2nd track
(track 1).
All:
I would like to wade through my memory boards chip-by chip and find
out what's what. I spent the better part of the day swapping boards and
chips trying to make 3-4 solid 8k boards out of 6.
Does anyone have a small SRAM tester for 16 and 18-pin SRAM/DRAMs
that I can borrow? I'll pay postage both ways. Please let me know. Thanks.
Rich
Rich Cini
Collector of classic computers
Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project
Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
/************************************************************/
