>
>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed
> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:04:53 -0700 (PDT)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>>From: "Allison" <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net>
>---snip---
>>
>>All the S100 machine of early origin were front pannel
>>(switches and lights) and few had rom/eprom.
>
>Hi Allison
> Yes, eproms were expensive.
Ah just to set a point. I still have the first 32byte
fuseprom and 1702 I'd ever bought. It's very painful
for me to know how much I paid for them. So for a fact
I do know they were expensive and also tough to get because
as both an engineer and hobbiest I was there buying them.
>> Most all
>>used hardware IO and a hand toggled in boot (assuming
>>the controller didn't have a bootrom). Most of the
>>people doing it were running far lighter hardware
>>than you have there. Most of the heavey geeks were
>>using stuff like PT ALS8 systems to bootstrap to
>>CP/M for the first time. Me I plodded through a
>>lot of hand toggling plus my tape based system.
>
> I did this also to get my first level of bootstrap
>running and saved to the disk. I'll admit that I did
>take advantage of having a PC laptop to use as
>large external data storage to minimize the amount
>of toggling. Still, I made a formatting program,
>first level bootstrap and BIOS through the front panel
>with the serial input. I used no monitor program,
>just a simple serial-input-to-memory program that I
>toggled in.
> I can imagine how much more effort there would have
>been without the external mass storage. Even a minimum
>of toggling and paper tape would be quite painful.
That not even the first level guess. It was harder because
there was little experience out there to draw from and if
you had a disk early on likely you were one of the
few. So there was a lot of by the seat of the pants
and sweat to make things work. I'm talking prior to 1977
as that summer a lot more system with matching disks
started to appear (NS* was one) and the market was ready.
>>Even then it was load the available image on SSSD 8"
>>then overlay the drivers by hand (switches or monitor
>>program) then save it to whatever before a trial boot.
>>Early on there were very few disk systems and fewer
>>that were plug and go for CP/M. Usual case was
>>migrating from available hardware and non-CP/M software
>>to CP/M. Did that for both 8" and NS* 5.25 and also the
>>NEC PDA-80 I had. To this day I cringe when I do a
>>first boot even thugh I have moden tools and usually
>>boot from EPROM instead. Such is memory of the process.
>
> You always wonder if the program you just toggled in
>is going the wipe out all the work you previously
>entered. Or worse, wipe out a CP/M distribution disk.
!$%^&, Now I"m going to have them nightmares again.
Really, it happened too often.
The day I put in the NS* controller toggled E900h
(ok it was 351,000 split octal) into the Altair front
pannel hit loadaddr then run was like I could hear a
chorus. Boots thereafter were almost reliable. Once the
NS* chassis arrived the Altair was retired and reliability
was established.
>>
>>It wasn't until around late '77 (same time I got my NS*)
>>that I started seeing turnkey machines as the norm.
>
> As you state, normal turnkey used boot ROMs/EPROMs. One
>might consider my setup to be turnkey but it isn't a
>normal turnkey. There is no boot ROM/EPROM. It just uses
>the normal reset of the controller without main CPU
>interaction. It is not fully automatic since I do need
>to hit the reset and wait for the disk to complete before
>enabling the computer to go. Almost full turnkey.
>Dwight
==An aside from the questio to set background=============
Two address history you have to understand the enviroment
as many experienced it. Cheap computers then was any
machine under 5000$. Back then $5000 was a good down
payment on a house in the northeast.
The significance is that your hardware was not typical
nor commonly seen. Most of the people didn't have that
kind of money and likely before early '77 it didn't exist.
More typical was a PT SOL/W NS* or NS*, SWTP 6800 systems
and a few maybe of the Altair or Imsai style plus a few
bare bones scratch builts. I attended more than a few
LICA (Long Island [NY] Computer Assoc) meetings where
the common machine was an ELF more maybe an AMD EVK68
(6800 SBC), Moto 6800D1 or National SC/MP. I was
somewhat of an oddity as I had by then Altair, SC/MP,
ELF and even a Technico Super Starter board (TI9900)
by time the TRS80 was just appearing. In the whole
association I think there were maybe 8 of maybe 100+
that even had a working disk.
Just so you have an idea. If you had a disk in early
1977 and ran CP/M likely your outlay in Dollar$ was
in the range of 4500-6000+(US$) into it and that didn't
include a terminal or TTY (add ~1000$). Around then
a new Chevy C20 4wd truck was 3800$ for comparison.
To run CP/M 1.3 or 1.4 you needed a minimum of 16k
of ram, a disk with controller, IO board, terminal
and an 8080.
In 1976 summer: Some of the 1977 list items were
unotainium. Those items that could be bought were
roughly 2x the 1977 price. IE 16K of ram was
$1000.
1977 summer cost:
Barebones Altair or Imsai ($395 kit)
SA400 (not the 400L) $399 new
8K ram board seals/PT/IMS $259(kit)
Floppy controller ($699[kit] with 1st drive NS*)
ICOM FDC and disk(sa400) $1095
Z80 CPU (NS* $199)
Serial IO card 159$
Tarbel cassette interface $120(kit)
TTY used $800-900, VDM-1 199(kit)
Printer (see tty)
In 1978 that stuff would be around half the price.
In late 1978 I took a Data structures in pascal course
in college at night. Of the professors 200+ students
I was one of 6 that owned a computer (not a pocket calc)
of some sort and one of two that had a disk and could
run UCSD pascal. Back then a personal computer was
_any_ hardware that was owned personally.
========================================================
Allison
> Just do a search on Google or eBay
> for "SCA SCSI" (loose the quotes).
>
> > How much should I expect to pay?
>
> Depends on where you get the drive, and how big. I typically get
> used ones for free. A new one will run you anywhere from $200 on up.
If you look on pricewatch you can find new 9GB SCA drives for $15.
They only get expensive if you are looking for 72GB or 144GB drives.
Eric
>From: "Allison" <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net>
---snip---
>
>All the S100 machine of early origin were front pannel
>(switches and lights) and few had rom/eprom.
Hi Allison
Yes, eproms were expensive.
> Most all
>used hardware IO and a hand toggled in boot (assuming
>the controller didn't have a bootrom). Most of the
>people doing it were running far lighter hardware
>than you have there. Most of the heavey geeks were
>using stuff like PT ALS8 systems to bootstrap to
>CP/M for the first time. Me I plodded through a
>lot of hand toggling plus my tape based system.
I did this also to get my first level of bootstrap
running and saved to the disk. I'll admit that I did
take advantage of having a PC laptop to use as
large external data storage to minimize the amount
of toggling. Still, I made a formatting program,
first level bootstrap and BIOS through the front panel
with the serial input. I used no monitor program,
just a simple serial-input-to-memory program that I
toggled in.
I can imagine how much more effort there would have
been without the external mass storage. Even a minimum
of toggling and paper tape would be quite painful.
>Even then it was load the available image on SSSD 8"
>then overlay the drivers by hand (switches or monitor
>program) then save it to whatever before a trial boot.
>Early on there were very few disk systems and fewer
>that were plug and go for CP/M. Usual case was
>migrating from available hardware and non-CP/M software
>to CP/M. Did that for both 8" and NS* 5.25 and also the
>NEC PDA-80 I had. To this day I cringe when I do a
>first boot even thugh I have moden tools and usually
>boot from EPROM instead. Such is memory of the process.
You always wonder if the program you just toggled in
is going the wipe out all the work you previously
entered. Or worse, wipe out a CP/M distribution disk.
>
>It wasn't until around late '77 (same time I got my NS*)
>that I started seeing turnkey machines as the norm.
As you state, normal turnkey used boot ROMs/EPROMs. One
might consider my setup to be turnkey but it isn't a
normal turnkey. There is no boot ROM/EPROM. It just uses
the normal reset of the controller without main CPU
interaction. It is not fully automatic since I do need
to hit the reset and wait for the disk to complete before
enabling the computer to go. Almost full turnkey.
Dwight
>
>
>Allison
>
>
PS As Joe mentioned, I did go off subject and should
have started another thread. For that I apologize.
UPS dropped off the following yesterday and boy is it fun reading and
looking at the pictures from long ago. Right I'm looking a Special issue of
Popular Computing dated March 1983 with a picture of the Lisa I on the cover
a and Part 1 of a large write-up of the Lisa.
Creative Computing
1983: APR MAY AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC
1984: ALL
1985: ALL
On Computing (Complete)
1979: SUM FAL WIN
1980: SPR SUM FAL WIN
1981: SPR SUM FAL
Popular Computing (from premier issue)
1981: NOV DEC
1982: ALL
1983: ALL
1984: JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN
SCCS Interface
1975: DEC
1976: JAN MAR APR MAY JUN JUL DEC
1977: JAN FEB JUL AUG SEP
Interface Age
1976: AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC
1977: JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT
1978: OCT
BYTE (from premier issue)
1975: SEP OCT NOV DEC
1976: ALL
1977: ALL
1978: ALL
1979: ALL
1980: ALL
1981: JAN FEB MAR APR
Hi folks,
I posted this message tonight to a couple of Altair sites, but might as well
ask on the big list too: does anyone know about the existence of a portable
Altair, which was designed as the "Altair 2"...? According to Steven Levy's
book "Hackers" (p. 257), by mid-1976, Ed Roberts "had been designing an
exciting new Altair 2 computer -- a high-powered, compact machine which
could fit inside a briefcase" before selling the company to Pertec.
I'm more interested in the computer's size / form factor than its technical
abilities, since I mostly study the history of portable systems.
- Evan
-----------------------------------------
Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net
Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/
Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm
*** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter
- 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us!
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Hi all,
I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface
to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built
a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793.
I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data
sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40.
I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not*
need the +12V.
I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all"
major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not
have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ?
I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as
the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself!
thanks,
- Henk, PA8PDP.
All,
Apologies, I'm probably at least 2 years off-topic.
Have a Sun Ultra 1 with a non-functional Quantum hard drive,
model number seems to be VK45JZF1. It's in a sled with a lever on the
front, and the connector is a funky thing with a central ridge rather
than pins. This is for a work project.
Where can I find a replacement fairly quickly?
How much should I expect to pay?
What's with the strange interface?
Replies here would be better, on-list OK.
TIA!
--
- Mark
210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995
and you hot swapped puters? Pardon the dopey question.
And shouldnt peecee drives work with either? I know
they will with a mod 3/4.
--- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org
<ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > I have a Tandy CoCo that had been used with 2
floppy drives.
> >
> > Can I just unplug the drives and use them with a
Model I, III, or IV ??
>
> I certainly used a CoCo floppy drive unit (the FD501
one I think) on my
> Model 3 for a time, so it should work on the Model 4
too (same disk
> controller). And I see no good reason why it
wouldn't work on a model 1.
>
> I even used one of those cheap mechanical printer
swtichboxes (with 36
> pin Blue Ribbon connectors) to switch the drives
between the CoCo and the
> Model 3. Made up a couple of cables with edge
connectors on one end, Blue
> Ribbon on the other, and crimped a Blue Ribbon plug
onto the cable coming
> out of the drive box. Looking at the mess of wiring
inside the switchbox
> told me it shouldn't work (noise everywhere!), but
amazingly I had no
> problems...
>
> -tony
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>
>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed
> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>>From: "Allison" <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net>
>>
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed
>>> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
>>> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:14:15 -0700 (PDT)
>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>>
>>-------snip---------->
>>
>>>> I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel
>>>>MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used
>>>>a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800
>>>>with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM
>>>
>>>Hi
>>> Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first
>>>S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a
>>>MDS-800.
>>>Dwight
>>
>>No. Most (if not all) of the first S100 system had front pannels
>>(ALTAIR AND IMSAI Were the first!). The few that didn't had some form
>>of rom monitor to simulate a fronpannel via TTY such as Poly-88,
>>Processor tech SOL and others.
>
>Hi
> What does a front panel have to do with what I stated?
> I am familiar with the MDS800 having worked for
>Intel and written both assembly and PLM80 for it.
>I was also responsible for testing of the 1036 card
>( the PLL used in the M2FM board set ). So, I do understand
>the disk I/O of the MDS800. I made no claim as to
>how a MDS800 works( please read previous mails ).
>As I corrected, I was not intending to make a claim about
>the first ever CP/M ( again please read previous mail in
>context ) but felt that from the context of the conversation
>that we were talking about S-100 machines. I tried to clarify
>this misconception that I was talking about the MDS800 in
>a previous mail ( again please read ), I was not talking about
>the MDS800.
Reminising old hardware. Even the MDS800 was second generation.
> All I'm saying is that I was told that this particular
>DMA based interface was used for the first implementation
>on the S-100 of CP/M. This was told me by another fellow
>many years ago. I don't recall the fellows name but he
>seemed at the time to be honest enough since he had nothing
>to sell or gain by such a comment. He claimed to have some
>involvement in that process. If you don't like that you
>can just shoot me and be done with it but, please, don't
>put words in my mouth.
>Dwight
The first time I'd seen DMA hardware of any kind was 1977
(years after) and it was used for a calcomp platter
(10mb removable) I was told the system cost 30K$
All the S100 machine of early origin were front pannel
(switches and lights) and few had rom/eprom. Most all
used hardware IO and a hand toggled in boot (assuming
the controller didn't have a bootrom). Most of the
people doing it were running far lighter hardware
than you have there. Most of the heavey geeks were
using stuff like PT ALS8 systems to bootstrap to
CP/M for the first time. Me I plodded through a
lot of hand toggling plus my tape based system.
Even then it was load the available image on SSSD 8"
then overlay the drivers by hand (switches or monitor
program) then save it to whatever before a trial boot.
Early on there were very few disk systems and fewer
that were plug and go for CP/M. Usual case was
migrating from available hardware and non-CP/M software
to CP/M. Did that for both 8" and NS* 5.25 and also the
NEC PDA-80 I had. To this day I cringe when I do a
first boot even thugh I have moden tools and usually
boot from EPROM instead. Such is memory of the process.
It wasn't until around late '77 (same time I got my NS*)
that I started seeing turnkey machines as the norm.
Allison
I just got given two VAX 4000-705's. I still have to pick them up though.
But I was just wondering if anyone has any picture's of one ?
And perhaps tell me something about it ?
Stefan.
-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.oldcomputercollection.com
