test-drb December 2005

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

235 participants
580 discussions

VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) > From: "Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:24:55 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> The VS2k is a bare bones uVAX-II cpu and inst very fast but I never >> thought the boot to be unusually slow unless the dianogstic >> were running. > > RD5x drives are painfully slow, and this is especially a problem in the >VS2000 because the integrated disk controller a) lacks DMA, and b) lacks the >T11 chip to do local processing found in a RQDXn - the uVAX CPU has to do >all the work. Nope. the SMC9224 part did have DMA. It didn't have the ability to DMA further than 16mbytes. It was the MSPC translation to that part that was painful. It also had SCSI via the NCR5380, but since SCSI was not yet a standard it doesnt talk to anything useful (OK, other than the TK50). the lack of T11 was less a hit than lack of the implied buffering it gave. The uVAX-II was not that much faster in booting. Oh if you had less than 8mb ram the swapping was very painful!!! And most only had 2M or 4m. > Starting DECwindows, especially, took forever... > > [Also, maybe I can cook dinner faster than you :-)] >Bob Nah, I order out. Standard programming foods, PIZZA! ;) Allison

18 years, 9 months

Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:30:35 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >What I do find odd that the 8086 came out first then a few years later >the 8088. >It still think the 8086/8086 could have had two instruction sets -- >8080 emulation and >a better 16 bit design. Not that I know of. I remember being able to get 8088s before the 86s and that was back in 78 or early 79. It was quite somethig to take an 8088, 8284(clock gen), 8205 (aka74138), 8755, 8155 and have a complete 16bitter in 5 or so chips. However, the 8089 IOP was a piece of cruft and one big pain to debug. Allison

18 years, 9 months

A Hobbyist DECnet Network

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:01:55 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >At 7:49 AM -0500 12/9/05, Allison wrote: >> >My first uVAX was a VAXstation II/RC in a BA23, I've still got it, >>>though the monitor needs repaired. My second was a MicroVAX II in a >>>BA123, and was the first VAX I got running, it's now my PDP-11/73. >>>I've never seen a MicroVAX II boot slow enough to make dinner :^) >>> >>> Zane >> >>I always used VT100/125 or VT340 as they are smaller than the huge 19" >>DECwindows tube. >> >>Allison > >Actually for the most part I've always used a VT220, VT320, or now >VT420's. I don't think I ever managed to get the VAXstation II/RC >booted when the monitor was working, and once I actually wanted to, I >discovered the monitor wasn't working. For the past several years >it's been sitting in a storage unit under a DECwriter II terminal. I >ended up with the MicroVAX II before I could get ahold of a >replacement disk and copy of the OS for the II/RC. I have a choice of terminals to use and a tube or two. VT100, Vt125, H19, VT320, VT340 and a VT1200. If all else failes PC running PROCOM. I also have a VR160 and 190. >In the past, I have used 17" to 21" monitors on my Alpha's running >VMS, and come to think of it I briefly had my VS4000VLC hooked up to >the 17". Still for the last 5+ years all I've normally used is a >VT420 as the system console and simply used telnet or ssh to connect >to a shell session. Every few months I pull up a DECwindows session >on my Mac. > > Zane The only thing I havent tried is an Xwindows session on a PC. I do have Pathworks and the LAT interface is ok too. Generally I don't need to connect physically with the VAXen as they are small require minimal attention and live happily while tucked in a corner. Where the PCs need attention, the reset swich must be accessable and they must have a local console to be remotely useful as anything but a server and even then a tube is needed for diagnostic work. ;) Allison

18 years, 9 months

Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:35:58 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Lance Lyon wrote: > >> From: "Allison" <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> >> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:38 PM >> Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win >> Software >> >> >>> >>> I've been around computers since I met a strapping PDP-8I back in '69. >> >> >> I feel so young - 1979 and an Exidy Sorceror! :-) > >I feel so old - PDP/S in 1981 > . and I lift PDP-8s and the like nd should know better. Ouch! Allison

18 years, 9 months

IBM DASD alternatives?

by ceby2＠csc.com

>There's actually a couple of ways. You can do it through the front-end, >and you can do it over a SAN. >Peace... Sridhar >Sridhar - Okay, lemme clarify. The system is a 9221, air cooled rack mount system (built in 1992). So yes it's a ES9000 as opposed to an s390. Sorry I'm still getting used to the distinctions. I was working in Windows and UNIX when this system was out. I only started playing with big iron relatively recently. This one's pretty low end, 64 MB main, parallel channel adapter and as I mentioned, the older 9332-400 DASD. The features I have right now or communication and DASD/tape. I finished sorting through the cables, and irritatingly I need to find some bus&tag DB78 stock before I can hook up the 9332s. Anyone trying to dump bus & tag DB78 cabling? And, coming back to what you wrote, Sridhar, I wasn't sure what you meant by defining minidisk through the front end? Thanks, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com CSC - EMEA Northern Region - C&SI -Technology Architect ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18 years, 9 months

Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:22:45 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I'm only 28, and my father had a PDP-11/70 in our apartment when I was >> born. I still have that machine... > >Now how the hell am I supposed to compete with that? :-) You dont. A base PDP11/70 was less than three racks and only a bit power hungry. But it was the machine! Allison

18 years, 9 months

HECnet

by johnny.billquist＠softjar.se

"Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: > I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked > together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really > good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET" > or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that aren't > mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real, > non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines. And it's fun to interconnect different OSes and architectures. Since this question now has popped up, I thought I'd go through a few points of interest for those who want to know or join. First of all, yes, HECnet exists, works and have done so for a couple of years. But the interest have been very limited. I don't know why. Maybe because I don't frequent the right group of people. Same reason people tend to forget the ftp archive I have of PDP-11 software, which (in my eyes) is the better place to find atleast RSX stuff. :-) To begin with: HECnet is DECnet Phase IV, and nothing else. Anyway. HECnet started out as point-to-point connections using asynch serial DDCMP. This was because it was the easiest and most obvious way to solve this. Tunneling normal serial interface traffic is very easy. It was, however, limited by both by which OSes actually supported this (RSX and VMS afaik), the fact that you needed physical asynch interface on the machine, and the fact that this limited the network speed to 9600 bps. The next step was to tunnel ethernet instead. I wrote a small program running under Unix which does exactly that. It uses the berkley packet filter to get packets, and to send them as well. This means that an independent machine on the same ethernet segment is needed to do the tunneling. At the time I was doing this, I couldn't find any ready solution for this. I did look at GRE, but figured it cannot be used, since it requires the OS to atleast understand the packet in order to figure out that it should go on the GRE tunnel. DECnet is not understood by most Unix versions. Now, if I'm wrong, I'm all ears to implementing it. There also sometimes exist a bridge interface, which might be useful, but once again I haven't exactly been sure, so I've skipped it for now. My current bridge program have some flaws that are related to DECnet. First of all it don't learn where different MAC addresses are, to limit transmits. Second, you can decide which machines packets that are sent out on a bridge, but since it appears as one single ethernet segment, things can get wrong when one machine in one area wants to talk with a machine in another area, and wants to use the other areas router directly (since they have contact). This means that if you run an area router, you actually need to allow all machines to send traffic to anywhere. Some of these things are easy to improve, and I should probably address them. But since interest have been so low, the need hasn't exactly been acute. But maybe if this picks up. If you want to join HECnet, there are a few things we need to fix. First of all, we need the connection established. My machines are sitting at a site where I have very large bw, and no problems running 24/7. I have an area router, and another machine that acts as the bridge. So what you need is a machine to act as your endpoint of that bridge. It can either be a Unix machine, or something else, if we just get the connection going to some other host on HECnet. The requirements for my bridge software is really a machine that can send ethernet packets with anything as the source mac address, since that need to be faked. Most modern PCs can fake that, but I don't think SUN machines can. If you'd prefer to run something else than Unix, I'd be happy to help porting my bridge program. If you have a machine that actually can route DECnet over IP, it's in a way a better solution, but I can't deal with it right now. We'll have to start working on it. Let me know and we can talk. Second, since DECnet have addresses as well, this address database needs to be organized and allocated. For HECnet, I need to administer this. What I do is either allocate an area for someone who wants it, and then that area can be managed locally, or I can assign addresses from area 1, which I use myself. At the moment, only areas 1 and 11 have been spoken for. The node namespace in DECnet is flat, and while it's also local to every machine, it's nice to try to keep it uniform, so I prefer to keep track of node names, and have a master list locally, which people can copy >from when they want to. That also means you should register wanted node names. The area router for area 1 is an RSX-11M-PLUS machine. There are actually several area routers on area 1. MAGICA:: is a real PDP-11/70 running RSX-11M-PLUS. MIM:: is an emulated PDP-11, running RSX-11M-PLUS. ERNIE:: is a real PDP-11/84 running RSX-11M-PLUS. PONDUS:: is a real PDP-11/83 running RSX-11M-PLUS. ERNIE and PONDUS are at my home, and since my ISP left me stranded I don't have any permanent connection to my home right now, so they are mostly offline. MAGICA is normally not on at the moment, because of budget problems. This leaves MIM. MIM is normally online and running. I have been experimenting (together with John Wilson, the author of E11) with MIM lately in some interesting new features, which unfortunately have left MIM without a working ethernet at times. However, if we're serious about this, I can always keep MIM running a bit more safe. There are about 20 machines in area 1, and about the same number in area 11, which is managed by Saku Setala in Finland. The machine running the bridge is normally always on as well, so even with MIM out of the loop, everything should work fine. If you have any questions, just write me. If you want to join, write me as well. We'll start by figuring out how to hook you up, and we'll also allocate nodes, or an area for you. Johnny > > Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating? > > I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few > email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > > At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is > having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes. > > Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong? > > As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the > Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for > point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and even > DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right > now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license > program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits > using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to > set up and administer. > > I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and I > can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV > routing node. > > Bob Armstrong > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 23:43:29 GMT > From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> > Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win > Software > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <10512082343.ZM22810 at mindy.dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Dec 8 2005, 16:26, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Allison wrote: >> >>>You lived a shelterd life. >> >>I lived a young life. I first became of programming age in late > > 1970s so my > >>first CPUs were 6502, Z80, 68000, and 808x. > > > Whether it's called a Half Carry or an Auxiliary Carry seems to depend > somewhat on whose data book you read. I've seen both used for the Z80 > for example, indifferent manuals. > > ...in a 6800, it's called the Auxiliary Carry; in a 6809 it's called a > Half Carry. It's bit 5 of the status register in both. > > ...in a Z80 and 8086 it's called the Auxiliary Carry; it's bit 4 in the > Flags register in these and 8080/8085. > > ...it's bit 5 in 8048 and 8051 series micrcontrollers. > > There's no (visible) equivalent in a 6502 because of the way its > special Decimal Mode for BCD arithmetic works. Ditto for a 68000. > There isn't one in an ARM either. > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

18 years, 9 months

Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:29:43 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: >> Ah but, what I said didn't reflect on age only experience. ;) >> >> Then again kid... ;) > >Great. I'm 34 and a "kid" in this group. Maybe appreciation of classic >computers should also be subject to the "decade rule" too? ;-) Nah, that would take all the fun out! ;) I've been around computers since I met a strapping PDP-8I back in '69. Allison

18 years, 9 months

A Hobbyist DECnet Network

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: "Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:41:03 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked >together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really >good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET" >or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that aren't >mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real, >non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines. > > Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating? I've been able to do that here for about 15 years internal to my room. Mostly 3100s (pizza box) of the microVAX flavor, MicroVAXIIs and MicroVAX2000s. Decnet is cool and LAVC is something I've never been able to reproduce with PCs. I try to boot the FLYIN: cluster a few times a year with members (CESSNA:, PIPER:, RUNWAY:, FBO:, MOONY:, MAUL:, BEECH: and C150U:). All of my VAXen are headless, I use a VT1200 xterm to "set host" to them. As to doing ove the internet, DSL, and floating addresses are a problem. There used to be a TOAD on the net (DEC system20 or somesuch), Is it still? > I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few >email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > >At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is >having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes. > > Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong? Start with www.OpenVMS.org and link from there. > As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the >Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for >point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and even >DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right >now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license >program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits >using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to >set up and administer. More money that I can devote right now (power too). But interesting to follow and maybe later.. > I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and I >can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV >routing node. > >Bob Armstrong Actually a MicroVAX2000 with a RD54 is enough for routing if you can shoehorn the OS and enough ram in it. Routing is not a high cpu usage problem. For phase IV routing VMS5.4 is enough and that fits in a RD53(71mb) well enough and isn't as ram hungry as V7.x. Allison

18 years, 9 months

A Hobbyist DECnet Network

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: "Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:37:06 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >> As to doing ove the internet, DSL, > > DSL? What's DSL? You don't mean the phone line, DSL ? Yep, or more specifically ADSL over phone lines. > >>and floating addresses are a problem. > > If you mean DECnet addresses, then yes, we'd have to have some >coordination of the addresses used. WE can just assign people a block of >addresses; I doubt that we'll have enough members for it to be a real >management problem. Not the DECnet addresses the IP addresses. >> There used to be a TOAD on the net (DEC system20 or >> somesuch), Is it still? > > As it happens I know a guy with an XKL machine in his apartment that might >be willing to connect. Don't know if we're talking about the same person. I dont think it's the same person, I can't be sure. But yes the XKL be it and the node/machine name was TOAD. >> More money that I can devote right now (power too). But >> interesting to follow and maybe later.. > > What's the money required? If you already have a VAX then you're set. >Power is an expense, of course, but you don't have to leave your node up >24x7. I already have a uVAX2000 running Ultirix as firewall so I guess I could. The problem is when I run VMS on the others I'm used to running a few as I don't want them to be lonely. ;) >>Actually a MicroVAX2000 with a RD54 is enough for routing if you can >> shoehorn the OS and enough ram in it. Routing is not a high >> cpu usage problem. > > Yeah, but a 4000/VLC takes less power, less space, and boots lots (lots!!) >faster. It's the lowest power budget (and therefore cheapest to operate >24x7) VAX I know of. Really? The uVAX2000 power supply maxes at 160W though the 3100m10s and M76s are not much more. Also the uV2k is only .5cuft I think there are smaller pizza boxes though. I happen to like that the UVAX2000 actually has a handle! > [The first "personal" VAX I ever owned was a VS2000, around 1989/1990. I >used to come home, turn it on, and I could make dinner while I waited for it >to boot and start DECwindows!] I have three of them, one is used for formatting disks both floppy and hard. My first uVAX was a MicroVAX-II in BA23, still have it. There are two 3100m76, three VAXserver3100, Two MicroVAX-11s in my collection of uVAX and at least four Storage expansion boxes, two TLZ04 tapes, and a pair of TZK-50s. I had a bunch more when U Vermont stopped using uVAX for mail servers years ago. About half run VMS5.44 under unlimited license and the rest 7.2 under hobbiest license. The rules around here is if it don't dim the neighborhood lights and it fits in the room I can keep it. Right now the room is cubed out. Allison

18 years, 9 months

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test-drb December 2005