"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
> FYI, this is now live, anyone interested should probably head over to
> the HECnet mailing list.
Minor nitpick: it's been live for the last five years or so. But welcome
anyway.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>
>Subject: Archiving Software
> From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net>
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:48:46 -0500
> To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>Well, that kind of misses the point of my original question. For a system-specific
>bootable disk, imaging is probably the only answer since if you can't boot your
>system you can't load the image into it (although Dave Dunfield has even done
>this for several systems by loading the bootstrap & system file via the monitor
>and console port). In the case of systems that can have both 5" and/or 8" FDDs,
>it probably makes sense to image the 5" version since it's probably easier to
>temporarily add a 5" drive to an 8" system than adding an 8" drive to the PC.
Each case is an individual when the following are true:
*Hardsector or non PC producable media.
* No monitor or front pannel to interact with.
An example is the NS* Horizon system. The only rom is small and JUST
enough to boot the OS. The disk is hard sector. Without one of the
following as bootable, UCSD Psystem Pascal, NS*dos, CP/M for Horizon
your dead.
The fix, one of several really. You need about 1k of eprom in the system
with a very basic monitor that allows setting memory moving blocks
of memory and the like. the CPUB (STD NS* Z80 board) can be populated with
the bits needed to use a 2708. Or if available a SBC880 (has ram and rom
on it), Compupro CPUZ (with eprom installed). or use a Eprom/Rom card with
a monitor program installed to get software console. The basic theme here
is being able communicate with the base hardware. Having an IMSAI or
ALTAIR front pannel machine works too.
>
>What I was looking for were answers to the following problems:
>
>1 - I have some hard-sectored disks for my Vector MZ; how do I archive those?
Serial port to the serial port of a emulator.
Serial por tot PROCOMM on PC.
Once again if the machine is like the NS* you will have to use the native
OS to write a program to upload sectors for assembly as an archive.
If the native OS is LIKE CP/M or similar with and editor, assembler and
debugger your golden.
>2 - Assuming I do, how do I or you recreate them?
The reverse is harder and very system dependent. First you must have
enough rom with a program (See NS* case) to communicate at some level.
If you can do that it's possible to hand enter code to do whatever
is needed to assemble media. Painful, you bet but I've done it.
>3 - I have a SSSD 8" CP/M Visicalc distribution disk; how do I send it to you in a
> way that you can re-create a 5" disk for your SystemX (especially if you only
> have one serial port)?
Procom or other terminal emulator and a CPM program called unload to
make into an ASCII hexfile for upload and transport. This assumes
you have a system that can actually read it. If not it's just some
media and might as well be blank.
>4 - I have a version of Cromix+ for Cromemco on DSDD 8" disks, consisting
> of one bootable disk and a tar file spanning three more disks; again,
> what do I put on my site or email you so that you can install it on your
> System 1 with only a 5" FDD?
See above cases.
>5 - And just to round out the list, I have a copy of Unix for the Cromemco, which
> is on one bootable 5" disk and a tar file on a DC600 tape. What do I do
> with that (serious replies only pls :)?
IF you do not have the system and drive that wrote that tape the usefulness
is seriously in doubt. It really is close to finding a reel of magtape
on the side of the road maybe worse. You MUST have the drive or one of
the same type with similar interface or reading it may be just an exercise.
The bootable 5" disk you boot it and then write a utility to read it
serially to another box (PC whatever). The only one that can help is
someone thats in the same space and with similar or same hardware.
IF the media matches hardware you have running another OS then sending
sectors via serial line is doable ad my even be easy depending on OS.
Systems like that you have to know it inside out and side ways. Unless
some one can using a similar one write you disks all the code on the
internet is mostly meaningless if you can not enter it somehow and
execute it.
Generally speaking if I can talk to the hardware, and there is at
least one serial port the problem can be beaten but usualy as a
one off case.
Best example I can give is years ago. NEC PDA-80, one of 12 in the
country and I had 4 of them, two were operable. NO OS. Front
pannel machine with a disk controller for 5,25" floppy that with
a few commands could read or write a sector of data to/from it's
buffer. Task, put CP/M 2.2 up for the first time. The only
system available was intel MDS 8". Note this was before the PC
had IBM on the front. The transfer media was paper tape and
ASR33 TTY! A program was written and assembled on the MDS to
implement a simple bin loader, the loadeer was for hand entry
via the front pannel. That loader read the first tape that
had a hex loader to load the hex tape with CPM (6.5k of code!).
It took six tries to get the CP/M prompt for the first time and
two more to get a floppy written with boot tracks. Then I
had to get, PIP, STAT, ED, DDT, ASM, LOAD and an improved BIOS
source transfered all as hex format paper tape. Pip was first
as it is a file transfer program. It can be done, and it's
not always easy.
Allison
> From: Barry Watzman [mailto:Watzman at neo.rr.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:40 PM
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Copyright
<SNIP>
> Second, a book can be
> used without also, in the process, making a copy of it, while use of
> software, by definition, also requires making a copy of the software.
Uh, not always so...
I have plenty of software that runs directly off CD. I'm not making a copy
of it to run it. Unless you're implying the process of reading it into
memory to execute is copying it. IMHO that's a mighty fine line.
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:21:40 +0100
From: Anders Carlsson <anders.carlsson at sfks.se>
To: cbm-hackers at ling.gu.se
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.64.0512152208170.-686657 at crashders.bredband2.com>
Reply-To: cbm-hackers at ling.gu.se
Subject: PET stuff to rescue
Hello.
While this is not a buy and sale list, I wish to make an exception.
Tonight, I visited a man who used to be a Commodore reseller as well as
having his own program development company, working towards Datatronic,
the Swedish Commodore agent during 197x-1985.
I went to his house in hunt for VIC-20 and perhaps C64 items, and found
a bunch of stuff, described more in detail on the Denial web forum.
However, his basement and garage are crowded with PET stuff. Computers
like 3032, 8032-SK, 600, 700 and perhaps more. He needed some space in
the garage, and has already thrown away a lot of CBM 600/700 series!
Disk drives like dual 3040, 8050, 8250, 8050LP and I don't know all the
model numbers, as I have never been much into the PET/IEEE series. Hard
disks like 9060 and 9090 (or did I misread?). Some 3rd party hard drives
called Corvux or something like that. No IEC based (1541 or newer) disk
drives though.
Printers. Monitors. Lots of business software, floppies a mass. Docs.
PET printer switches. Modems. Everything was so tightly piled, that I
don't even know what's behind all those PILES of disk drives. Most are
supposed to be OK too. He even has a small selection of motherboards
and loose chips, mainly 6502.
He also had a few C64 and slightly more loose VIC-20s with assorted
items.
So the question is, is this stuff worth buying? I realize the shipping
would be a lot of money, probably more than he is asking for the items
themselves as he said he is happy if they can come to use.
I don't have a complete inventory, partly because I didn't know if there
is any major interest in this kind of stuff, and because it was close to
impossible to inventory it all.
He has had this stored like this for 10+ years, and just recently begun
to clean out the garage and basement to have room for his new hobbies and
grandchildren. I suppose it is no immediate hurry to pick up the stuff,
but it shouldn't wait too long.
I suppose the best thing is if interested parties answer me privately.
At least when it comes to disk drives, I can almost guarantee there is
enough for everyone.
Best regards
--
Anders Carlsson, Sweden
Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
Folks,
I have an S-100 RAM board made by Measurement Systems and Controls,
Inc. Model No. DMB6400.
It came in the Cromemco system I'm cleaning up, so I ass-ume that the
DIP switches are correctly set for the Z-2D's current configuration, but
I'd still like to know more about it.
Does anyone have the manual for this thing?
Doc
>From: "Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com>
>>
>> The BIOS is written in Forth
>
> A BIOS written in Forth? I dunno - I don't want to start any flame wars,
>but I'm just not comfortable with that :-)
>
Hi Bob
This is done more often than one would realize for production
machines. Forth has the ability to abstract in most any
direction that one desires ( end encourages it ). This
means that ( if done properly ) a BIOS written in Forth
would have its coding done in such a way that reconfiguring
for different hardware and even often for different
processors can be done with minimum effort. I've seen
coding in such a form that the changes looked more
like copying the data specs than actual coding.
Of course, for someone that can't read or write in Forth,
it may look like a difficult project.
JMHO
Dwight
>From: "M H Stein" <dm561 at torfree.net>
>
>Well, I didn't get any replies to my question about how best to archive
>Cromemco software, so let me ask again in broader terms:
>
>Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging program
>seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to
>archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible and
>downloadable/emailable?
>
>For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar,
>Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for
>someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand,
>a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be copied/converted
>back to a CP/M format disk somehow.
>
>So, how are the rest of you dealing with this?
>
>
Hi
In the past when I've needed a file from an image,
I've thrown together a file extraction program to
get the file of the image. I usually also write something
to put an file back to an image. Often the write back
of a file is as simple as I can make it. I usually
write to an formatted image with no other files. This
makes allocation easy.
For CP/M I've only copied files from archives and not
images. I've then transferred the files serially to
my IMSAI. If it is a binary, I convert to HEX and then
use the debugger to write it to a file.
For CP/M-8000, I've written code to extract from a
8 inch image and then write these files to 5-1/4
images for the Olivetti M20. In this case, I've
always build a new image with complete files for that
image and not added files to a disk with files on it.
Again, this is the easiest way to handle these.
I've seen a few utilities on the web to read and write
files to images but I've never used or needed any of
these. I an usually interested in learning that
particular systems file format and find the best way
to learn it is to write something to transfer files.
Dwight
OK, I've finally decided I'm never going to get a chance to play with
this, so it's looking for a new home where it can receive the love
and attention it deserves.
It's one of those black stacking motorola machines - just pile up
discs on top ... (and connect the scsi and control and power cables
on the back..)
Main unit. P/N 01-W2522D01A. Second bay P/N 01-W2519D01A.
Boards are labled MVME 187 and I/O. Latter has the scsi and control
on it, 4xserial and 10baseT and AUI ports.
And it's got a tape drive in it. No floppy.
My understanding is that this machine was only in service for a
matter of months, maybe even weeks, then the user reverted back to
their previous (accounts) system and this ended up under a desk for
the next several years, before I rescued it. It's therefore not been
powered up for about ten years ... I assume it's still loaded up with
whatever it ran (Unix, SVR4 from memory, plus applications).
It comes with no cables, no documentation, no passwords... I believe
you can run NetBSD on it..
Free to loving home, for collection only from Salford, near Manchester, UK.
Also available at the same time (take them, please!!!) two or three
Wyse dumb terminals (Wy-120 and Wy-30), at least one of another make,
multiple pentium-1 and 486 PCs in various conditions, some printers,
monitors, etc.
Interested parties please email me on robert at irrelevant dot com.
Rob.
Greetings folks;
So last night during the tornado watch in Iowa I was muddling about in my
basement with my wife (Seated listening to the radio) and rediscovering
the treasure trove of Good Stuff I have stored down there.
I came across a Vector Graphics machine that I've had for a few years now
and not even poked a serious look at.
This Vector Graphics machine is not an all-in-one like the ones I seem to
have found online, but in two desktop style chassis', one containing the
S100 cardcage and cards, and the other a rather large MFM hard disk.
I am totally unfamaliar with this machine, and google seems to be
providing me with few well descriptive pages on what the machine is and
about the Vector Graphics company.
What I do know: The machine is Z80 based on a "ZCB" single board computer
which sits in the S100 bus. It also has a hard disk/floppy drive
controller board, what appear to be three memory boards and three
"FlashWriter II"s which, all share one wire in common with a memory board
(A big question mark over that one).
Alas some philistine couldn't be bothered unplugging the unit from
whatever it once hooked to, and snipped both the ribbon cables to the
drive chassis as well as a ribbon cable that lead to an unknown device
(possibly a specialised graphics display).
Replacing the cabling isn't a problem, of course, but whatever the blue
ribbon cable goes to definitely did not come included.
All information greatfully received;
Pictures of the poor thing (and copious asian beetles) here:
http://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VectorGraphics-front.jpghttp://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VectorGraphics-hdd.jpghttp://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VectorGraphics-top.jpg
My thanks;
JP
