test-drb February 2001

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

175 participants
337 discussions

Holy Crap! IMSAI's weren't this expensive when new!

by r.stek＠snet.net

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:12:50 -0700 >From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >Subject: Re: Holy Crap! IMSAI's weren't this expensive when new! > >Well, hopefully he recognizes what a DOG this system is, with its NorthStar >controller. There you go, needlessly trashing N*'s again! You must have been bitten by a hard-sectored disk when you were small. NorthStar responded when hobbyists who couldn't afford 8" drives wanted a disk drive for their Imsai's and Altairs. They were VERY popular and well supported. Their boards and systems were well done and reliable. They even provided a hardware floating point board for number crunchers long before other vendors. NorthStar's own DOS and BASIC were probably initially brought up on more Altairs and Imsai's than CP/M was as a first OS. It was a very usable BASIC with BCD arithmetic and cleaner random access file handling than Microsoft BASIC ever had. Sure, CP/M became THE OS of the day, but N* DOS was there first. The Horizon supported CP/M 1.4 and later 2.2 was distributed by NorthStar. And take a look at Walnut Creek's CP/M CD-ROM - just figure out the percentage of the CD-ROM that concerns itself with NorthStar, CP/M or otherwise, and compare it with the support for other computers which supported an OS other than CP/M. It will never have a decent-sized TPA thanks to the >memory-mapped controller, Pure nonsense! Even without moving the boot-prom, (an option supported by NorthStar or a simple mod for users of the day which would give you a 62k CP/M system), NorthStar's and Lifeboat's and SAIL Systems's CP/M would give you a 56k or 58k system with the standard boot ROM. I NEVER found a CP/M program I couldn't run in 56k, and I ran ALL the popular CP/M programs - dBASE, WordStar, BDS C, SuperCalc, FORTRAN, various Pascals (including N*'s own version of UCSD Pascal, though not under CP/M), SpellGuard, etc. and it will never read soft sectored diskettes >either. Fortunately, he can probably afford to put up with the associated >problems. Never had any problems - just perceived that way by folks too rigid to take other than the soft-sectored path! And NorthStar was popular enough that when George Morrow designed his DJ-DMA controller, he supplied a BIOS for it that could read and write both N*'s hard-sectored format as well as other soft-sector formats. That was the main reason I got a Morrow Decision I. It wasn't until late in the CP/M game that utilities began to appear for reading other manufacturer's formats. I added a Morrow Disk Jockey 2 board to add my 8" drives to my Horizon in order to transfer the standard SSSD 8" CP/M formatted disks - the ONLY standard for CP/M. Even soft-sectored 5" formats were specific to their manufacturer. > >I advised Tom Bassi to dump the NorthStar stuff any way he could, and, since >he had several IMSAI's at the time, this was how he chose to do it. I'm >really glad he did so well. I am glad he did well, too, despite your advice. (hi, Tom!) You can see from the pictures that he does >clean work and keeps things looking good. > >Dick Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols

23 years, 10 months

Available: Rackmount SCSI Drive Enclosures

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

CC'd to CLASSICCMP and port-sparc: I have available two rackmount enclosures for SCSI drives. They're built very robustly, can accomodate two drives each (5.25" full-height, or 3.5" with mounting adapters), have built-in power, cooling, and ID switches for each socket, and they include mounting sleds for the drives. Asking $10 each, original drives included. The original drives are Seagate ST4706ND (differential SCSI), and I believe the enclosures were once part of a Control Data storage subsystem of some kind. In any case, I need to move them out of here. If I don't get any responses >from either mailing list, they'll go to the Puyallup swap meet with me. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K) "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

23 years, 10 months

Memorex 2374-81R

by yoda＠isr.ist.utl.pt

Hi. I've just bought this box, Memorex 2374-81R, at a local junkyard, without having the faintest idea of what it was. A white box, with a 3.5in floppy, several BNC connectors at the back, and two RS-232 DB25 connectors. Well, at that time I suspected it was some kind of networking device, e.g. ethernet router? (<-- wishful thinking) hub? switch? After a google search I found out it is some kind of TELEX machine. It came with a floppy (damaged) with a label on it saying "CORREEIROS SYSTEM-EDS" (correeiros is a mispelling of "correios" which means the main snail-mail enterprise in portugal). It makes sense to me that post-offices could use telex. I want all information I can get about this machine, and telex technology in general. I'd be much appreciated for any links anyone could send me. Thank you. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585

23 years, 10 months

Holy Crap! IMSAI's weren't this expensive when new!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >0xE000 that puts an upper limit on the TPA. Memory mapping the FDC was, >from what I observed back when it was relevant, just about the most stupid, >Stupid, STUPID thing one using a Z80 could do. It helped nothing, save >perhaps some wiredosity of their equally silly choice to use hard-sectoring, Your applying 2001 logic to a design that was complete in 1976. In 1976 do you think you could do better and cheaper? If you say yes remember I have icom fdos and also worked with TRS80 and NONE in 1977 had anything near that for the same or similar bucks. >them, AND, considering when they came out with it, it prevented the average >user from utilizing the more popular software packages, which, because of >the timing, were too large to run in the small TPA. Remember, they wanted Never prevented me from running ANY of them with a 56k tpa. Most ran well in 48k. The only one that wanted a larger TPA then 48k was SMALLC V2 compiler as the optimizer wanted more space. Lessee by 1981 64k of ram was still around $499 for dynamic and static was about $600 so there were people that weren't into the must have a full box to do things. >their customers to run NDOS, not CP/M, and CP/M required a contiguous memory No they would later support and implement CPM. They also had in 1978 UCSD Psystem with Pascal for $50 (bargan in my eyes). NSDOS was a far lower cost (both in footprint and $$$) OS than cpm and unlike cp/m came with a decent interpreted disk basic. The closest thing to that cost 150$ for CP/M and $$350 >from MS (disk basic, compiler was $500). >span up to the BIOS. The BIOS itself, of course, could use memory ABOVE the >controller and EPROM if there was any. Of course, NorthStar didn't support >that solution. At the time, if you had an application that was coded in They didn't have to support it and for many that was not a requirement. >MT+, which was VERY popular at the time, it required at least a 56K TPA. >Now, the TPA was the part of memory that lay BELOW the BDOS. If you load TPA was the space BELOW THE BIOS and E7FFh is 59k into a possible 64k! >something at 0100 and run it up to 0xE000, there's no room for BDOS or BIOS. >That's why, at that point in time, until later when the popular compilers >were rewritten to support overlays, machines like the NorthStar and some >from Vector Graphics, both of which were famous for their small TPA's, were >pretty much useless. Your saying I didn't run MS basic-80 compiler, smallc, TurboPascal, BDS-C Cbasic, Multiplan, Dbase then? Oh thats right it was not doable. Most of that stuff only wanted 48k though it ran well on my 56k system. >Well. not exactly. If you didn't mind that you couldn't use anything but >NorthStar-formatted media, you could survive, but there was no chance at all >of having any media interchange with anyone without a NorthStar controller. Prior to about 1982 that was not only not an issue it was irrelevent. Back in that era running softsector was often not much help as everyone ran something different format wise. >I bought three NorthStar systems for $1 each and donated them to the Boy >Scout troop a friend of mine was running back in '80. The complaint with >which I got them was that there was no way to use them because the TPA was >too small and because you could not read standard media. Thats your fault not the system. Like I said I was running 56-58k TPA off an unmodded copy of LIFEBOAT CP/MV1.4. When I moved to using 2.2 I put the bios above the controller for a very nice 59k TPA with hard disk support. I'll agree that putting the FDC at F800 (NS offered roms for that, I have them) would have been more convenient but E800 was not a significant handicap. Actually if you wanted to burn your own roms it was easy to do. The media problem in the early 80s was not so much standard media but the idea there was even such a thing. That would persist until PCs wiped evrything else out now we only had 360k, 1.2m, 720k, 1.44, ZIP disk and Cdrom to confuse the issue. >Rememver, Allison, >the CP/M diskette standard, and there is only one, is 8" IBM 3740-formatted >SOFT sectored single-sided ... Well, since I have the NS horizon I built in 1978 I dont need to remember. I know! Yes, 8" SSSD was the standard save for it was expensive, large, noisy, hot and only gave you 256k. I know, I supported it and still do. An SA801 and controller was easily $400 more expensive in late 76! Even if you had softsector 5.25" that didn't mean you did support 8" though many could. In 1977 NS* it allowed people with on 16 or 32k to run Basic and a disk OS which was a mostly useless config for CP/M. Then again in 1977(late) 32k of ram was around $800(kit, 900-1000 assembled and tested). I still have a Intergrand dual 8" full height box. it's loud, noisy and nearly as big as the S100 crate above it. I also have a HZ-207 box with two 1/2 height 8" 2sided DC motor drives and it's still big and weighs a ton. >> Irrelevent. He may also know that there is also very good support for >> ^ Have you ever considered using a spell-checker? Here we go again. if opinion doesnt work then attack the spelling. Sorry, just like your editor doesnt support clipping off unwanted text mine does not support a decent spell checker (if there were one for PCs). >really? Where? Good support is: few of the historical systems are as to easy to find docs, software and working hardware for. Also if the hardware doesnt work it's easy to repair with common ttl. It's one of the few configs that exists 20 years later as can be made to work easily. Allison

23 years, 10 months

Holy Crap! IMSAI's weren't this expensive when new!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >Well, hopefully he recognizes what a DOG this system is, Since he knows the NS horizon and altair with MDS-A (mine back in the 70s) he may just have an appreciation for how good it was compared to it's contemporary peers. >with its NorthStar >controller. It will never have a decent-sized TPA thanks to the >memory-mapped controller, and it will never read soft sectored diskettes First your comments on the lack of TPA are unfounded and incorrect. Even with the poor implmentation of V1.4 (Lifeboat) the TPA was 52k and with the later V2.2 version 58k was easily done. For most CP/M apps of the time 48-56k was plenty. As to reading soft sector, Irrelevant. >either. Fortunately, he can probably afford to put up with the associated >problems. Irrelevent. He may also know that there is also very good support for that configuration, still. Allison

23 years, 10 months

SCSI trouble on a MicroVAX IIGPX

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Iggy Drougge <optimus(a)canit.se> >In what way? The PC could be considered a simple architecture, too. Not >out a user's perspective, but the hardware design is simple, at least if >kept at a 1981 level. What makes PCs complex is the standards creep, since most PC standards were ignored or poorly implemented things that should work often didn't or did only after a fashon. For vaxen especally the Qbus models the ruls were very narrow and it was enforced internal to DEC and Protocals like MSCP were patented if a third party wanted to do it it's implementation was generally good. Now the likely thing is you either did an ESD hit to something or while pushing/pulling something you may have altered a switch, jumper or maybe puped a chip loose. Allison

23 years, 10 months

[OT] SCSI termination trouble?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 10, 1:06, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >The boot drive normally IS at ID=0, however. That's a real convention > >throughout the SCSI usage. I don't recall ever seeing a system that would > >boot, say, from ID=4. Most PC's will promote the ID=1 device to the boot > >rank, but not if ID=0 is present but manlfunctioning. YMMV, of course. > > IBM, OTOH, goes according to the SCSI standard and boots from the highest ID > and downwards. The standard doesn't require or suggest that. What it does say is that the highest numbered ID has highest priority, but it means that in terms of which device has highest priority in getting the controller's attention. So it's sensible to put devices that mustn't be kept waiting, like some CD writers or tapes, at high IDs, though it's less important with many modern, smarter devices with bufferring. I've never understood why PCs put the controller at ID 7 (highest priority) since it makes no difference to a controller. Unless you have a system with more than one controller, where one has to catch the other's attention, like a couple of multihost SCSI systems I've seen. > Besides, everything I've heard about PC SCSI seems utterly ridiculous and > stone-age. :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York

23 years, 10 months

A2024/Viking Moniterm (was Re: Amiga Unix (was: Amiga develop ment))

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> You are both right: the Viking Moniterm was a Sun-style 19" mono monitor > and a card for the video slot, and the A2024 was a monitor with a 23-pin > Amiga video connection and all the necessary goodies inside. I had an > A2024 once, I still have the Moniterm. I have a Viking Moniterm, and no interface card. Anyone have an extra? -dq

23 years, 10 months

OT? PS2<->USB

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On February 9, Richard Erlacher wrote: > There are many dozens of USB-dedicated microcontrollers by now. Intel has a > bunch, Cypress has a bunch ... Siemens has a bunch ... Philips has a bunch > ... I could go on ... Microchip recently announced a PIC with a USB interface. I really like PICs...now I'm gonna put USB in EVERYTHING! Muahhahahaaa!! 8-) > These devices swap larger intelligence, bought at the price of silicon > (about $3/lbincluding packaging, etc.), for interconnection uniformity. > There's enough intelligence at the computer end to figure out what it is and > how to talk to it, and there's enough intelligence at the device end to > communicate in a regular way so that the system to which it's attached will > be able to figure out who/what it is. This is what they're giving us in > place of those expansion slots that newer PC's haven't got anymore. Well put. -Dave McGuire

23 years, 10 months

Stuff available in Arnhem, The Netherlands

by hofmanwb＠worldonline.nl

People, The stuff below belongs to a charity and they are willing to part from it for a small fee - Brother WP-1 text processing system in working condition. Screen, single floppy drive and printer all in one. - Toshiba 5 1/4" external floppy disk drive Model PA 7225E. The external 18V DC 0.6A power supply is missing. Available free - Qume daisywheel printer from Decmate III system with spare wheels and ink ribbons. - Wang system unit PC-S5-3 with the following cards: PM101 IBM Mono Emulation PM029 Winch.CNTR-2 - Wang display Mon-1240 - RSX11M manuals Version 4.1 - Dec VT1200 (system unit) - VXT 2000+ (system unit) Wim

23 years, 10 months

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test-drb February 2001