test-drb December 2001

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

243 participants
1096 discussions

by steven_j_robertson＠hotmail.com

First, I'd like to say thanks to everyone that has provided help. The insight provided by this group is invaluable in getting a system like this going :-) I did a quick inventory of the cards in the rear of the machine plus a second 1000 carcass that I have and this is what I found: * (2) Time base generator * (3) Microcircuit A-2222 / 12566-60032 cards * (1) 55613 GMR-1 - I have no idea what this is. * (1) HS Terminal - 12531-80025 * (1) INTF - 1337 * (3) Natel 2101 R/D Converter I understand the "Time Generator" card but, really don't know the functions of the other cards. I know some of this info may be on the spies/~AEK site but, haven't had time to filter through those docs. The machine also has: * (1) 64K HSM 12747H - High speed memory * (1) MEM CONTR 2102B * (1) M.E.M 12731 I'm assuming these are just extended memory cards and controllers. At this point, the HP basic route certainly seems like the most doable. I did see those images on Jeff's site but, was pretty clueless as to how to get the data into the machine. Bob: exactly what is involved in your "Paper Tape Emulator". From the functional description, it doesn't sound all that complicated. This may be something, I could hack together. As a side note: I know where there are two more 1000/E that I could get for about $200 each. While I haven't inventoried them, each of those systems is a FULL rack of goodies including disk drives, X/Y data monitors, A/D converters, etc... One of the systems has a combo tape/hard drive and could possibly still have the OS installed. The other one has dual 8" floppies. I'm running out of room for rack sized systems but, those probably deserve a good home (mine). Happy holidays to all, SteveRob >From: Bob Shannon <bshannon(a)tiac.net> >Reply-To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: HP 1000/E >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 09:56:42 -0500 > >Wow, you got an amazing deal! > >I've been looking for a spare 2113 for a while now, as I have a custom >instrument that is based on a HP 2113 processor. I would have easily paid >10 >times that price! > >As for operating systems and software, you have at least two options... > >First, the easy path... > >Simply run HP's stand-alone basic. You can download a binary image of the >media, originally a paper tape, from Jeff's HP2100 Archives. Now you need >a way >to get >that data into the machine, and a console port. > >You will also need a 'Buffered TTY Register' board to serve as a console >serial >port. Later HP machines (like the 2113) often use the BACI (Buffered Async >Communications Adapter) board, which is NOT compatible with HP Basic. > >Depending on what interface boards you have, we may be able to work out a >deal. > >I usually boot HP Basic from a custom tape reader emulator that holds the >binary >image of the paper tape in EPROM. This reader-emulator connects to a HP >'Microcircuit Interface' board, and the software is loaded using the >built-in >boot loader ROMs in the HP 2113. You simply power up, set a few switches >on the >front panel, then press IBL, Preset, then IBL once again, and the loader >code is >stored in memory. Pressing RUN at this point will load the tape image into >memory, and away you go. > >Now then the hard way... > >HP's operating system's for these machines are pretty nasty. The 'top of >the >line' OS was RTE-6VM, and the more common OS was RTE-IVB (RTE 4B). These >operating systems were unlike anything I've ever seen, cryptic, obtuse, and >fairly painful to use. As an example, to run a compiled program, you had >to >link the code into the OS itself. > >The hardest part here, is getting a useable disk system. RTE-IVB uses what >were >called MAC interface disks, while RTE-6VM also supported ICD drives, using >a >specialized version of the IEEE-488 interface. > >Supporting the original operating systems is a lot of work, and I strongly >reccomend you run HP Basic. > >Now, what exactly do you have? > >The HP 2113 was one of the last machines in a long series going back to >1968. >Your 2113 is binary code compatible with the original HP 2116, the first HP >product to use the then new-fangeled IC chips. HP2113's were still selling >for >$13,000+ in 1983, and are exceptionally well-built. > >It has no stack, but executes subroutines much like a PDP-8. In addition >to the >original HP 2116 instructions, the HP 2113 also adds several new registers >and >instructions, as well as a virtual memory scheme that can address 1 >megaword of >solid-state memory. > >Oh yes, many of the original interface boards from a 1968 HP 2116 will plug >right into your 2113 and work perfectly (but not the cool oscilloscope >point-plot display board...). > >I have a MS-DOS based version of the HP assembler, so you can assemble >small >programs on your PC. I am also working on a program for the PC that will >send >the paper tape image from the assembler into the HP via my tape reader >emulator. Once this is working, it should be possible to boot the HP >directly >from a file on the PC's disk. > >Take a careful inventory of the interface boards you have, and we can see >if >there is something in there you can use to get your machine running HP >Basic. >(many generic HP interface boards can be made to serve as psudo-tape reader >interfaces). _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

22 years, 9 months

RS/6000, cheap to good home.

by doc＠mdrconsult.com

Well, most of one anyway. I have a 7011-250 upgraded from a 7011-220, which means that I replaced literally everything but the case. So I have the 220 entire, if you want to mount it on something. This includes PSU, system board, MCA riser, 8-bit color adapter & riser, floppy drive & cable, and the lock barrel & key. A standard >2G scsi disk & cable will work. I've heard that the graphics adapter is not supported past AIX v3.25, but I promise you don't want to run X on this dog anyway. Or you could use a standard MCA graphics adapter. I need an internal SCSI cable for my VS3100 m38, a memory expansion board for the PS/2 8570, and a GXT130P graphics adapter. I'd consider Q-Bus drive controllers for the VS-II I may or may not be rebuilding, depending on whether the trade for CPU & RAM goes through. If you have something that's worth more than the RS/6000 pieces/parts, let me know what else you need. I'm suffering no delusions concerning the value of an orphaned 7011-220. Doc

22 years, 9 months

MITS 2SIO serial chip?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> >Since I have no way of having a chip of 80's technology made I have to >limit the design to what looks realistic for that era. I dont get that? You want a 4mhz z80 or 5mhz 8085? Those are relatively common. Now, if your doing PDP-8 era then 1.2uS instruction cycle was the number, slow by todays standards. >This is what this is -- a hobby/ learning tool -- In the early 80s, I really was trying to do what zilog eventually did, make a Z280 more or less. That and figure out what this ucode thing was all about. >If it was $$$ making I would have to move to Seattle. :) Now that's depressing. ;)

22 years, 9 months

6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Z80 uses it's time differently... Then again how many instuctions would it take to do a 16bit add (result in register or convenient place). The fact that both are still viable suggests they have adaquate speed and a rich enough instruction set to do many tasks. Last item, z80, Z180 and Z280 do not have the same timing. For example the Z280 can be run at a bus speed slower than the CPU speed and with the MMU and cache running in burst mode you get a very different bus utilization model. Generally the only things that count is: Can the cpu do the task? What cpu are you familiar with? What is the total cost to implement the task (firmware/software counts)? Politcial impacts (company prefers, owns, has, used before). Do I think z80 is better than 6502? Yes, I'm biased. Is 6502 a good cpu? I think so, it certainly beat the 6800 and a lot of others in the 8bit space. Would I design with it? No, lack of experience, no on hand software base for it, limited tools to work with it. Would I consider it, likely. I have 6502, 6800, 1802, SC/MP, SC/MPII, ti9900, 8048/9/874x, 8080, 8085, z80, Z180 Z280, 6809 and T-11 to pick from. For a new design (personal) of some size say to run an OS then Z280 or T-11 for single chip I have 8748, 8749 and 8751s around. For simple controllers 8085 is easy to use if it grows out of the 8749. Then again I also have upd78pg11s too. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:17 AM Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) >I've been on both sides of this question on a number of occasions and I've found >that the real challenge is to figure out what defines a level playing field for >such a comparison. I once concluded that running each processor at a rate >amenable with the same memory bandwidth was appropriate, but there are a number >of quesitons, still that have to be resolved. > >(1) the 6502 is designed in a way that lends itself very well to shared use of >its memory, i.e. using the memory for the CPU during phase-2 and letting a >memory-mapped video refresh circuit have it during phase-1. That's quite >reasonable and impacts the 6502 very little, but, if you try to do the same >thing with a Z80, you get tangled up with its variable cycle lengths pretty >quickly. > >(2) the Z80 demands a pretty short cycle for its instruction fetch (M1) cycle, >and, if that's to be the rate-determining step for the cmparison, i.e. if the >memory bandwidth requirement is determined on that basis, (no wait-states >allowed) then the 6502 will eat it alive. That, of course, is because 50% of >its memory bandwidth will be frittered away due to the fact that the M1 cycle is >short and has a wasted tail end (refresh cycle) while the 6502 doesn't have that >burden. Further, if that determines the memory bandwidth, then the M1 cycle >(~400 ns with 200ns memory of the era) means that a 4 MHz CPU wouldn't be able >to run with it. > >Fairness might demand a wait state, but that would then raise the question of >what's the bus bandwidth at which the 6502 will be run (assume a 20 MHz 6502 and >a 20 MHz Z80, but use memory of their own era.) Also, the refresh cycle itself >is a mite short for what the CPU does at 4 MHz. How would one stretch it to >where it wouldn't impinge on the next memory cycle? If you have to share the >memory bus of the 6502, why not the Z80 as well? If you can use timing tricks, >why not on the 6502? I'd say use whatever timing tricks the two CPU's can live >with, but run them to their best advantage. Run phase-1 on the 65-2 for only 25 >ns, then switch to phase-2 for whatever time the Z80 uses the memory. Let the >Z80 use a wait or two in the M1, and stretch the refresh so the cycle can be >complete when the next cycle is in progress. Since non-M1 memory cycles are 3 >clock ticks, the clock could be pretty fast, couldn't it? > >(Can you see how this gets tangled up in technical problems of fair comparison? >That's BEFORE the question of what sort of benchmark software is to be used >comes up.) > >The shortest 6502 instructions take two clock ticks, but some overlap the next >instruction fetch. The shortest Z80 instructions take an M1 cycle, followed by >refresh, to fetch, and I'm not sure whether they execute during the refresh >(they're internal, so that's conceivable) or whether they produce an idle bus >cycle. I also don't know what happens during that idle bus cycle. Simply >sitting down and calculating the relative instruction timing might not be so >easy. It certainly won't be easy to get right. > >My own experience has been that in controller applications, manipulation of >16-bit values doesn't come up as often as I once believed. Mostly it seems the >values that are dealt with are 8 bits or fewer. Others may see this >differently, however. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Greg Ewing" <greg(a)cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 3:30 PM >Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > >> Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca>: >> >> > what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like >> > the rabbit. >> >> Back when I used to spend long blissful evenings hand-assembling Z80 >> programs [1] I got the impression that Z80 code was more compact than >> 6502 code, being able to manipulate 16-bit values with single >> instructions in many cases. Whether it was actually faster I don't >> know, but I suspect it was, as long as you stuck to the 8080-like core >> instructions which didn't take ridiculous numbers of cycles to >> execute. >> >> [1] I didn't do it in a storage locker, although I did often >> had the heater on in winter. >> >> Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ >> University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | >> Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | >> greg(a)cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ >> >> >

22 years, 9 months

FS/FT: DEC TZ85 DLT tape drive

by mrbill＠mrbill.net

I'm not sure how old this is, or if it meets the 10-year rule.. but I've got a DEC TZ85 (first-generation DLT; also reads TK50 and TK70 media) SCSI DLT drive for sale or trade. Ended up not being enough capacity (does 2.6G on a DLT-III tape) for what I needed at home. I've got the TZ85-A in original DEC big loud and noisy desktop 5.25" enclosure (has Centronics-style SCSI-I connectors, and I'll throw in the DEC scsi terminator). If it helps, I'll also throw in 10 or 20 DLT-III tapes, if you want to pay shipping (these tapes also work with all current DLT drives, at 10/20G capacity if I remember correctly). Looking to sell, or trade for ham radio or scanner (radio) gear. I'm in Austin, TX, and this beast is heavy (as are the tapes), so a local or nearby deal preferred, but if you're not local, buyer pays shipping. Email me if interested. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill(a)mrbill.net Austin, TX

22 years, 9 months

Fairchild FST-2?

by neil.macmillan＠freeuk.com

The Fairchild FST-2 computer was used to control a family of Semiconductor ( chip ) testers I guess from sometime in the mid 1970s to around the mid 1980s. The family of testers were branded as "Sentry", "Sentinel" and "Series10" ( maybe some others ). The FST-2 was a 24-bit machine with its memory interleaved between odd and even addreses. When the CPU was reading/writing to an odd address, a peripheral could address an even address and vice-versa using DMA. Early machines were booted from tape, but newer machines had a PROM boot board which allowed booting from 8" floppy, hard-disk, tape ( and possibly a network. ) Early machines had 25 bit wide memory with a parity bit, while the later machines had 30 bit wide memory which provided error detection and correction. Control of the tester was via two busses known as the long-register bus and the short-register bus. If you come across an FST-2 which can be powered up, set the console switches ( piano keys ) to 06760000 in octal and press STOP, RESET, LDP, LDC and START. The machine should waken up. There are a few stand-alone FST-2s kicking around without any tester hardware. These were used as a FACTOR compiler co-processor for a development system which was based on the HP1000. Most FST-2s will be part of a chip tester. If the chip tester is still working, the whole system is still quite valuable. Even as a source of spares. Although the tester has a lot of different power supplies the FST-2 probably ony needs 5.0V and the RS-232 voltages to get running. The FST-2 ran an OS named M3 ( "M Cubed" ) and was programmed using a FORTRAN-like language named FACTOR, ( Fairchild Algorithmic Compiler Tester ORiented. ) Most Sentry testers could test digital chips with 60 pins up to 10 MHz. Some later Sentrys could test up to 120 pins at 20 MHz. I remember FST-2s being very slow to compile FACTOR programs. Most users ended up compiling their program and test patterns ( Vectors/Truth-Tables ) on a VAX. Fairchild ( and later Schlumberger ) provided really good in-depth training and documentation for the CPU and the testers for hardware maintenance and programming. The manuals which were up for grabs were either manuals/schematics which were shipped with a tester, or training manuals which some engineer picked up in San Jose or Munich.

22 years, 9 months

Wanted DEC VT1200 mouse and cable

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 24, Bill Pechter wrote: > The cable that goes between the DEC VT1200 (looks like an N connector) > and their monochrome video monitors like a vt262 and a DEC VSXXX-AA > mouse. > > I've got a working VT1200 minus mouse and video cable. > I was going to cobble one up with some RG6 and a BNC connector and > an N connector (if that's really an N connector) but I'd really rather > find the right cable and spend more time enjoying the toy rather than > fixing it. FYI, if that connector is about the size of a BNC but threaded, it's a TNC connector. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

22 years, 9 months

Fluke, GRID and Daisy

by kenziem＠sympatico.ca

It's funny how once you find out about a certain machine they then seem to show up everywhere. Found a Fluke 900* yesterday they are asking $25 (Cdn) for it, looked like it was missing attachments. Picked up a GRID 1500 laptop it came with 6 batteries, external 3.5, 5.25 and tape as well as a vga adapter. It's missing a battery charger, and when it boots mentions a config error. The Daisy was sitting in the back, they had it put with office furniture. It looks like a desk but with a closer look, there is a 8" floppy drive on the side and at the base all of the usual connectors.

22 years, 9 months

More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions

by LFessen106＠aol.com

In a message dated 12/24/01 6:51:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, doc(a)mdrconsult.com writes: > The "disconnect your terminal" part was the thing. I find it odd that > the box won't even finish power-up diags if the terminal is connected > and turned off. > > Doc > That's not so odd.. The exact same thing happens with my 3 vs3100m35's, my vs3500, all my Decstations and my Alphastation as well.. I just leave them completely headless for the most part, and the ones I need a head on always have a terminal connected and running.

22 years, 9 months

CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers)

by rachael_＠gmx.net

on 19-Dec-01 18:53:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I still have mine that I bought new. I use it to play CD+G discs and >not much else. Wish I had the MPEG cart - got some VCDs that would >be fun to play on it. I have an SX-1 adapter that turns a CD32 into >sort of an A1200, but I haven't had the time to check it out and put >it together. Does anyone have any docs for that? The jumpers are >labelled, so there's not much guesswork, but any docs are more than >I have now. http://www.amiga-hardware.com/sx-1.html, there is a PDF version of the docs there. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: Rachael_(a)gmx.net url: http://rachael.dyndns.org

22 years, 9 months

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test-drb December 2001