On May 31, 19:12, Tony Duell wrote:
> In any case, for the <nth> thime, we are discussing archive format to be
> used to store images of these floppies. Store them on something other
> than floppies. Like hard disks, CD-ROMs, EPROMs (if you insist!), etc.
Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful*
lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote:
> First, there was the PDP/8 which came out in the sixties. It was a largish
> "Minicomputer" meaning it didn't fill a room like the IBM 360's, but you
> couldn't exactly toss it in a closet either. Then came the PDP/11, which was
> a bit smaller and 16-Bit in the seventies. Then came the VAX 11/750,
> Digital's first 32-Bit mainframe, in the late seventies/early eighties, and
> dominated the minicomputer market for quite a while. The first VAXes where
> large cabinet sized affairs, needing wacky 380V power mains and hard drives
> the size of a decent size car transmission. Then came the VAXStation 2000,
> which had almost all the power of a VAX 11/750 in a case the size of a
> largish shoebox. The home minicomputer was born. Through the eighties DEC
> still made the huge company-running VAX 7000's, 8000's, 9000's, and 10000's,
> but also made smaller workstation-style counterparts, the VAX 3100's,
> 4000's, MicroVAXes, VAXStations, and VAX-Servers. You can pick up a 3100 or
> 2000 for under $50 if you look hard. 4000's are nicer and run upwards $100.
A few corrections here...the 11/750 was the second VAX model, not the
first. The first was the 11/780. The VS2000 was approximately the
performance of the 11/780, not the 11/750. The 7000, 9000, 1000, etc
(not 8000) were mostly 90's machines, not 80's, if memory
serves...some of which are still available for new purchases from
DEC/Compuke, though not for much longer.
> You'll want to get a VAXStation, as opposed to a MicroVAX, cause it supports
> a monitor, MicroVAX's are terminal controlled. Also, you'll need the special
...depends completely on the intended application. Myself, I have
28 machines on my home network. Only ONE of them, the one I sit in
front of every day, has a big tube and a framebuffer. The other ones
are in the computer room making noise and belching out heat...where
they most certainly DO NOT need a big 19" monitor taking up space, or
a never-used framebuffer sucking up power and kernel code space. A
single VT320 terminal with a very long serial cable sits in the side
of the room on top of an UPS. When I need actual console access to
the machines (which is very rare, only during some reboots, which are
in themselves very rare here) I string the serial cable to the console
port of the machine in question and I'm set.
In another week or so, a terminal server will be connected to all
the console ports, as well as the VT320 terminal. Then I won't even
need to be downstairs (or in the house at all) to gain console access.
-Dave McGuire
>> Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other
>> solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to
>> my patent attorney and file.
>Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human
>readable (well sorta ;)).
But not a particularly high density - 10 Bytes per square inch.
I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like
many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended
for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs
per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per
square inch.
This isn't particularly new technology, but it'll probably never become
widely used in the consumer sector. Most end-consumers simply don't
think even a couple of years ahead; witness all the folks who transferred
home movies to videotape, which might last for a decade
or two at most, and then tossed the original film. The original film
would've been good for centuries if processed properly.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard
>On May 31, 19:12, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>> In any case, for the <nth> thime, we are discussing archive format to be
>> used to store images of these floppies. Store them on something other
>> than floppies. Like hard disks, CD-ROMs, EPROMs (if you insist!), etc.
>
>Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful*
>lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives?
>
If you want increase your data storage capacity, you could colour code the
string, too.
Everything old is new again ... we've just re-invented the Inca quipu, a
few centuries on.
Regards,
Mark.
How much do you want for it, and where is it? It sounds neat.
>God, the dynatyper, I remember that...
>
>On a related note, I have an old I/O Selectric, not the generalized
>model, but one that appears to have been a teller terminal of some
>kind. Perhaps it was even used by a vehicle license branch.
>
>Anyway, I never could get it to function with the IBM controller
>that came with it (which I think put out EBCDIC), but it also came
>with an aftermarket controller (which I think put out ASCII).
>
>If anyone has been searching high and low for one of these, I'd
>probably let go of it for the right price or trade.
>
>Shipping will be a killer, tho; it's very heavy.
>
>-doug q
>
>
On May 31, Mike Ford wrote:
> >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for
> >Solaris 8.
>
> Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the
> E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a
> much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?).
Newer than a 10, about the same age as a 20 as I recall...
-Dave McGuire
On May 31, 13:42, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote:
>
> > >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last?
> >
> > Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally.
> >
> > The availability and maintainability of the readout systems becomes,
IMHO,
> > the deciding factor. If the data is stored as human-readable text this
> > isn't so much a problem, until languages change or are forgotten at
least.
>
> Sounds great, but how readily available is the process of film archiving
> to hobbyists, how easy is it to master, and how much does it cost?
>
> Unless the answers, in order, are extremely, extremely, very little, then
> keeping the archive on mirrored servers is still the best solution we
> currently have.
Well, for monochrome film, which is essentially what Tim was talking about,
the answers *are* "extremely, extremely, very little". What it amounts to
is using reasonably pure water for the three[1] main processing solutions,
making sure the fixing process is properly completed (and uses proper
fixer, not a "stabiliser"), and that the film is finally washed thoroughly.
[1] Assuming an ordinary silver-based emulsion, developer, stop-bath, and
fixer; gold and platinum emulsions also exist, and there are common simple
techniques to replace the developed silver image with a dye (typically less
robust than the silver, though) or to make it combine with something else.
Usually that's done to alter the colour or the contrast though, and isn't
applicable to "line" film.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
On May 31, 17:40, Dave McGuire wrote:
> I mean, realistically...I'm ONE person, I sit in ONE chair at a
> time, I drink from ONE can of Mountain Dew at a time...why do I need
> more than one video system at a time?
Because you need a second one for all that modern "documentation" that only
comes in detestable online form :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Hmm what about microfiche? And paper's storage lifetime is very dependant on
where you are, that's why I love CO, its dry enough here that paper stays in
great shape...
Will J
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
A moment of silence, if you would, please, for the death of
another long-lived electronics/computer surplus place.
At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View,
CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because
they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on
the part of their jackass of a landlord.
It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord,
decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd
been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain).
In any case, they could not have continued to make a
reasonable profit given what said landlord wanted to do, and there
was no better location available. They opted for a quiet and
dignified end.
While they may rarely have had the best prices on test gear or
computer hardware, Haltek was a very helpful source of parts for
me and Lord only knows how many other electronics types in the
Bay Area and beyond.
I sincerely hope their landlord ends up holding on to a
completely empty building for a VERY long time! Methinks he's a
graduate of the Bill Gates School of Compassion. :-P
Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such
as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping
block.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho,
Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com)
kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
"SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!"
