OK, here's something that's (much) more on topic that talking about spoken
language...
Anyone listen to NPR's all things considered today? (friday) They had a short
story about a commodore 64 user group in oregon. It basically profiled a
group of mostly older people who still use and enjoy them for what they can
still do. It also mentioned their scarcity and having to scrouge secondhand
stores to find parts.
DB Young ICQ: 29427634
view the computers of yesteryear at
http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm
--You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think--
Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the
summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the
building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the
workday for most of them is less than 6 hours.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 8:13 AM
Subject: OT: Re: languages
>At 04:20 PM 3/9/00 -0500, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote:
>>What other profession is there with an entry salary of
>>about $28K, and a top salary (after 20+ years) of less than $70K ?
>
>Actually, there are lots of jobs like that. Also, have you
>forgotten the nice long summer vacation?
>
>- John
>
I didn't see Seth's remarks. I'm sure he makes a good point, and the
remarks I've put forth certainly don't apply to every teacher. However,
I've had ample oppurtunity to sample what's out there, and it's a dreadful
shame that there's so much evidence of what I've said. The extreme cases
are the ones that catch the most attention, and that applies to my attention
as well as anyone else's. I'm as sorry as anyone that this is what we see
when we take a long look, though. I certainly had hoped, when I ventured
into this territory, that I'd find something different. It has not
encouraged me to be optimistic.
My elder son, by the way, has gotten the message that this is an easy and
fun profession. He's dropped out of Harvard and attends a state teachers'
college, having declared that he didn't really want to work so hard and
didn't want to spend as much time working as he observed that I did. I'm
not proud of that, but it certainly fits, both with my observations and my
conclusions about them.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Smith <ip500(a)roanoke.infi.net>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: languages (Teachers)
>Bravo Seth,
>Dick's comment just went too far. my neighbor is an Art teacher in a
>local High School and believe me---if she's not at work, she's either
>grading papers, planning next weeks work or staying after class to work
>with other kids. SOME are really dedicated to the profession!
>
>sjm wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>> > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the
>> > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the
>> > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and
the
>> > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours.
>> >
>> > Dick
>>
>> I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this.
>> You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today,
>> but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off,
>> he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching
>> his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to
>> grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings,
>> parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us
>> would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get
>> home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it.
>>
>> I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California
>> and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8
>> different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school
>> systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were
>> merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I
>> can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call
>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who
>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what
>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized
>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us
>> work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day.
>> They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it.
>>
>> I can't think of a more honorable profession.
>>
>> -Seth
I've got little sympathy for the teachers in in our school system. Many of
them may be honest and hard-working, but during the six years during which I
spent on the order of 12-15 hours a week in the school building, observing
the goings-on and attending various meetings, I saw what I feel is a
better-than-average sample of what the teachers themselves, school system
issues aside, are all about.
First of all, during my second year in this close-up of the system, I had
occasion to visit one gym teacher. He had a 5-bedroom, 2-story house with a
3-car attached garage, and a car parked in the driveway because the garage
was full of cars. That particular teacher was always complaining about the
low pay. He and I met in the context of an accusation made by a number of
the gym students, that he spent his time reading the newspaper, while he
should have been supervising the locker room in order to help prevent the
thefts and violence that had been brought to the steering committee's
attention. When he told me what he earned, which I already knew, I pointed
out to him that I had paid more than that in state taxes that year. He
simply lived beyond his means. I, on the other hand, lived in a 3-bedroom
ranch-style house with merely a carport. There were no extra vehicles in my
driveway, either.
One 6th-grade math teacher openly declared that he didn't have time to look
outside while the children were leaving the school premises to help prevent
violent incidents and harrassment as had been brought to the steering
committee's attention. I observed that he was always one of the last
teacher to arrive in the morning, though he was always out of the parking
lot before the first 10% of the student body was leaving the building.
On one occasion, I protested the frivolous activity that was being pursued
in the social studies classes, which was clearly an art project. After the
social studies department spent 10 weeks of the semester on this activity, I
was accused, perhaps justifiably, of throwing my weight around. The entire
social studies department made an appearance at a committee meeting, to
register their complaint, and I challenged them to indicate even a hint of
how this artsy-project had tied into the curriculum, first by asking what
the cultural significance of the item being mimicked was to the
Native-Americans of whose history these were a component, and second, by
challenging them to (a) show some connection to the curriculum that was
worth over half a semester and (b) to show how they had taught the
significance of this item to the current cultural environment. They could
answer neither question between them. I asked them a few other
social-studies-related questions along the way, only to demonstrate the
depth of knowledge of our social studies department.
This matter had risen not from my concern over the quality of teaching,
since I already knew where that was, but over my concern that all 7th grade
students were required to carry, among other things, a pair of scissors,
which were, by school district policy included among contraband items. The
Social Studies department could not justify this breach of policy. The
following fall, 4 of the 7 teacher were assigned to different schools and
the one's contract was not renewed.
I was as disappointed as anyone could be after my public school experience.
When I was in these schools (the same ones, by the way) teachers lived in
the neighborhood, and I walked to school with a couple of them every
morning. The teacher not only knew their respective subjects, but the
English teachers could help with questions about math or science, and the
principal spoke very elegant Engish. Even the gym teachers were up to date
on world events and could tell you what city was the capitol of Burma.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: sjm <sethm(a)loomcom.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers)
>
>On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>> Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the
>> summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the
>> building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and
the
>> workday for most of them is less than 6 hours.
>>
>> Dick
>
>I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this.
>You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today,
>but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off,
>he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching
>his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to
>grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings,
>parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us
>would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get
>home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it.
>
>I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California
>and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8
>different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school
>systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were
>merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I
>can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call
>lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who
>stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what
>they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized
>us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us
>work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day.
>They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it.
>
>I can't think of a more honorable profession.
>
>-Seth
-----Original Message-----
From: thomas.h.lindberg(a)se.abb.com <thomas.h.lindberg(a)se.abb.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: Dumpster stories!
>
>
>A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden,
>three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered
>newspaper/magazine dumpsters.
>The kids had seaked in through the narrow opening where we dump our old
>newspapers/magazines and sat there while the truck came to pick up the
>dumpster content. The dumpster was automatically emptied into a compacter
>at the truck and all taken to the fragmentation site where the kids wer
>found crushed.
>The dumpster openings are now just about the size of a mail box.
>
I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers.
That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic
residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?)
not to enter one.
There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition
than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top.
john
PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
http://www.pdp8.com
>Thomas
>
>
>
While I'd definitely have to weigh in on the side of the 'C' programmers,
there are a few things that have disappointed me over the years, more with
the compilers than with the general notion of 'C' as a language. As I've
often said, however, "Where you sit determines what you see." I live in
the microcontroller world, and the compilers vary widely in terms of
functionality and quality. There's a range of compilers reaching from doing
WAY too much to doing virtually nothing helpful at all.
'C' allows me to write code for these small computers/controllers that runs
pretty quickly in terms of development time/effort, yet still enables me to
focus my efforts on the task specifics. The compiler (hopefully) deals with
the common logica constructs, e.g. iteration, comparison, etc. though it
can't be relied on to produce the most compact code nor can it be expected
to produce the shortest run times. Most of these compilers produce assembly
language output. That means that I can take their output and whittle on at
as I need to.
I've seen very few of the more popular languages available for
microcontrollers. There's no CC++ for the PIC, nor is there an ADA for the
68HC705. WHile there are PASCAL compilers for the more popular
microcontrollers, they're not that common, and support for the various
flavors of the common, e.g. 8x51-core-based varieties, of which there are
literally dozens, is often left to the user.
If it weren't for 'C', there'd only be assembler for most of my programming,
and, frankly, if it weren't for 'C', there'd probably be few assemblers,
since they're almost all written in 'C'.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: The C programming language
>>In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes:
>>
>>> I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the
>>> sense of degeneration.
>>
>>Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and
portable
>>language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at
the
>>same time allowing elegance in program design and structure.
>
>The key word here is "allowing" not requiring. The obfuscated C code
>contest kind of invented itself.
>
>
>On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500, John B (dylanb(a)sympatico.ca) wrote:
>>
>> I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers.
>> That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic
>> residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?)
>> not to enter one.
So... were you someone's mother in another lifetime? ;-) There are already
enough laws that try to protect stupid people from themselves, while putting
a real damper on those of us who have brains enough to safely engage in
"hazardous" activities. Relax!
A number of years ago, they filmed part of the movie "Amerika" (which was
apparently about the USA being taken over by Soviets or something; I've
never seen it). They had a big sale at the end of the movie, held inside
the former location of a big K-mart store. People went nuts buying all the
clothes and props from the movie. That night, we drove by and noticed that
there was a *bunch* of stuff in the dumpsters out back. Upon further
investigation, the alley was found to be blocked off with a semi trailer
parked across each end. As we were in a Fiat X-1/9 at the time, that wasn't
a problem; we just drove under the truck. Found a bunch of electronic odds
and ends (props from the "communication van" driven by the "resistance
fighters", so I'm told). Popped the removable hard top off the Fiat and
started lobbing stuff in. Also found a couple of cool little Northern
Telecom telephone terminals; 9" mono screens with membrane telephone keypads
in front and a handset on the side, and a miniature QWERTY chicklet keyboard
in a little draw that pulls out from underneath, and serial ports on the
back. About the time the car was getting full, the police arrived at the
near end of the alley, probably summoned by the night watchman. Since they
hadn't told us to stop or anything, we just hopped in the car, drove down
the alley, under the semi trailer at the far end, and off down the street.
Bet they're still scratching their heads over that one. :-)
Bill Richman
incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
(Home of the COSMAC Elf
microcomputer simulator!)
I tried hard to understand the socio-psychological dynamic that led up to
the development of this pseudo-language, Ebonyx, in the minds of the
west-coast (that's code for "californicated") education community's leaders.
The place I arrived was at the conclusion that since the west-coast
community was unable to teach the young Blacks to stay in their chairs on
the few occasions on which they did attend class, they certainly couldn't
teach them to read, speak, and write properly, so they were forced to
classify what they, the young Blacks, did instead was another language.
This was seriously muddled in the debate over whether the educators on the
west coast should also be required to read, write, and speak properly.
The notion of Ebonyx was their way to "throw-in-the-towel" (for those
unfamiliar with U.S. boxing industry practice, this is a signal of
surrender.) so they wouldn't themselves have to learn what they had shown
they couldn't teach. If you ever spend any time in today's U.S. public
schools, you'll be appalled at the low quality of speech which has become
the norm among today's educators. When I was a pupil in the public schools,
I always found my teachers able to speak better-than-average English.
Today, that's no longer the case. They've become so wrapped up in being
"friends" with the pupils, they've forgotten they need to set an example.
I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools
that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure
in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing,
which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point
of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an
infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and
a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the
teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages
all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make
reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go
in order to teach those same characteristics in another language.
It's a sad situation.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: languages
>
>
>On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
>
>>
>> I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote
>> gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle.
>
>I'd be one to agree with that.
>
>> I have always done well with English, and that is my field, where I
earned
>> two degrees, and always regretted not getting another. I do recall,
>> though, that studying Latin did make things seem much easier to me, if
>> only because the language forced organised thought. I think German might
>> function that way also.
>
>Some may laugh but it was learning Pascal after years of assembler,
>focal and Basics that helped improve my english as it was the first time
>I got to see structure at work. Up to that point verbs and nouns were
>more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools.
>
>Allison
>
>
>
--- Doug Coward <mranalog(a)home.com> wrote:
> FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS:
> "Items available for disposal" page:
> http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html
>..."GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile:
I've heard of these. It's the source of the name J.M.S. used in the B5
episode "Infection" (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/004.html). From
the Lurker's Guide:
Ikarra may be an Australian Aboriginal word.
The Australian DSTO (Defence Sciences and Technology Organisation)
developed the anti-submarine weapon "Ikara" in the 1950's. It is no
longer in use in the Australian Navy, having been fired for the last
time in 1990. The Brazilian Navy may still use a variation of it.
Since the DSTO has a tradition of naming its products after warlike
Aboriginal animals, it's plausible that the word refers to an animal.
Not only "missile guidance computers", but pre-integrated-circuit missile
guidance computers, depending on the exact vintage of what's in the Bristol
Aero Collection.
> The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to
> the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic
> items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable
> rules."
I'd better get back to work on my incorporation papers.
> In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara:
> Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a
> 12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor
> and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot.
> The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built
> Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980
> lbs at takeoff.
I wonder how much of that is fuel and payload? 60%? 80%? How does
U.S. Airways feel about a missile in checked baggage? :-)
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Hi,
I've been using the used book search engines for
the last year, searching for an old journal article.
Afraid that I may never find the article, I decided
to ask for help. I'm hoping that one of you living
in the U.K. might have access to a library that has
a good collection of back issues of "Memoirs and
Proceedings of the Manchester Literary and Philosophical
Society". The article is "The Construction of a Model
Differential Analyser" by D.R. Hartree and A. Porter
in the July 1935 issue. If you think you can help
me obtain a copy, contact me and let's work out
a trade.
FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS:
I just thought I would mention this since some
people on this list are interested in missle guidance
computers.
While searching for information on the 1911 Bristol
Boxkite, I came across the web page for the Bristol
Aero Collection, Cirencester, England. On their
"Items available for disposal" page:
http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html
they list:
"GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile:
A number of complete missiles is available, without launcher."
The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to
the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic
items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable
rules."
In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara:
Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a
12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor
and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot.
The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built
Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980
lbs at takeoff.
Happy Hunting,
--Doug
====================================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work)
Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home)
Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Analog Computer Museum and History Center
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog
====================================================
