test-drb March 2000

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

150 participants
515 discussions

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

Thursday was a good day. Picked up a minty fresh Apple IIe with the 80-column vid card, and three different GRiDs. I know something about GRiD, but would like to do a little more research. Any pointers? One is a Gridcase 1550 (the tank with the little roller bar instead of the trackball) which has a bad screen, unfortunately; a GRiD 386 (similarly-built tank that has a good screen and is happy to boot); and a 486 convertible with a good copy of Windows for Pen and a working pen. Very, VERY well- built little(!) units. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

24 years, 4 months

Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade

by elmo＠mminternet.com

I have a few too many CBM 8032's (12" green screen, full size non-graphics keyboard, 32K memory) sitting in my closet. Please contact me if you're nearby, and interested in one. Will trade for non-vintage Intel stuff. I also have a Trimm- or Sigma- pedestal style 11/73 system with TK50, RQDX3/RD53, RX50's. Its a beautiful piece, but I need something much more compact, like a desktop BA23ish enclosure or VT103. I only have 700' of living space to play with, and the aesthetics corps is frowning. Elmo

24 years, 4 months

C-64 (fwd)

by vcf＠siconic.com

Here is someone with a C64 up for grabs. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: 3web(a)netscape.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:29:29 -0700 From: pop <3web(a)netscape.net> Subject: C-64 Hi, I have a C-64 with 1541 floppy drive, NX-1000C color printer, lots of disks and magazines I am getting rid of. I hate to just throw it all away, but have no further use and need to get rid of it all. Can you help? Walt 3web(a)netscape.net Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

24 years, 4 months

Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I also have a Trimm- or Sigma- pedestal style 11/73 system with TK50, <RQDX3/RD53, RX50's. Its a beautiful piece, but I need something much <more compact, like a desktop BA23ish enclosure or VT103. BA23 is not much smaller and you will not get all of that in a BA23. The VT103 is ok, but power will severely limit the system you can build and there is no preovision for mass storage inside. I forget the Vt103. Also there is the BA123 {stylish end table} and that has room and power. You'd need a Terminal for that as the VIDEO console if installed wants a 19" tube that is huge. Another compact PDP-11 might be the PRO350 or 380 series. In the end it depends on what you want the system to do. Allison

24 years, 4 months

The C programming language

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But I've been programming under multiple platforms in C for 10 years now. <I've learned a thing or two about writing portable code. It's surprising <how little effort it actually takes to write portable code, but it does tak <a different mind set that most programmers (in my experience) don't have. For the last 15-20 years I've been trying to resolve portability. Pascal and C were clear winners over BASIC always. Keep in mind the platforms I was trying to hit, CPM{z80}, RT-11 and VAX/VMS and for that carefull use of C (pay attention to what char, byte, long, double and float were) it was portable to the limit fo doing direct IO which is never portable. Pascal never failed to be portable as all objects were the same. < Careful, strings in C are *character* based (what's this ``byte'' you kee <talking about? 8-) This is one area where programmers don't quite grasp <portability issues. While it's true that characters in C must be at least <bits in size, that doesn't mean they *must* be 8 bits in size; an <implementation of C that uses Unicode natively could set the size of a <character to 16 bits (and there is also the issue of whether the character <is signed or unsigned---a plain char declaration is unspecified---it's <implementation dependant whether a char is signed or unsigned). This comes out of the tradidtion of C and unix and for that char is typically 7-9bits and is really an unsigned BYTE. The 8/16/32 world really forced a byte to conform to 8bits. <Intel 386 class takes a penalty if you execute 16-bit instructions in a <32-bit segment (or vice-versa). So, to move a counted string, you have: Gee and HLLs were supposed to hide this... ;) You should see what Z80 code looks like from a C compiler, without the ability to do the pointer indirection (PDP-11 does index deferred) the z80 compiler produces a lot of horrid code that resembles some of the RISC machines but nowhere as efficient. Yet hand coding it in z80 can be efficient and very few instructions. < The ANSI C spec states that the Standard C functions can be understood b <the compiler and treated specially. At least in the 386 line, most str*() <and mem*() functions compile to inline code and avoid the function call <overhead (a friend of mine actually triggered a bug in GCC using nested <strcpy() calls). < <> Controll of hardware ? My memory may be fading, just I can not <> see any reference to hardware controll in my K&R copy. All <> hardware dependant stuff is proprietary to the compiler you <> are using. And that's the same way as for example in PASCAL < < True---but it depends upon how the hardware is hooked up to the CPU---is <it memory mapped I/O or I/O mapped I/O? If the former, you just declare a <pointer to the memory location (mapped to the appropriate size) and go. I <it's I/O mapped I/O there is probably a wrapper function that the compiler <knows about and can inline. K&R C assumes the operators are part of the OS and the language interacts with the OS for IO. That is a useful concept for nonsystem programming or end applications. Totally meaningless for driving a A/D card. however, the right way to do that is to package and isolate the IO so you can use standard C conventions to interact with the device. This keeps the mainline code portable. < But C (the actual language) never defined built-in IO functions, leaving <I/O to subroutines (or functions). WRITELN is a language element of Pascal <but printf() is just a function. Depending upon your view, that is either <good thing or a bad thing (I think the lack of I/O statements in C is an <elegant solution myself). Despends. For a application that does standard IO to user and filesystem Pascal or C {stdio} works fine. If your doing mixed IO to a A/D card and present results to the user C looks nicer in code but Pascal handles that effectively. Both fail when the IO is speed critical, say the nondma floppy of a 200mhz or slower PC or when we are down in the mud of a Z80 or 8051. <> Things like messing up the whole programm by one wrong ; or } <> (something impossible on Assembly) or easyly produce memory <> leaks (hard to do on other HLL). Thats simple syntax and rules checking. C allows the naster conversion of datatypes. I've been burned by longints and ints in pointers to whatever. < Depends upon what you're used to. Pascal uses those pesky semicolons as <well, along with those annoying BEGIN and END statements. Assembly on the <other hand, is fairly structured and tend to avoid the cascade of errors <prone to compilers (although Microsoft's MASM is also prone to cascade <errors). I don't know if that doesn't exist in all of them. I've been smacked around gross stupidity in ASM, MACRO, PAL, C, PASCAL, BASIC and yes even fortran. All of them will go off the end of a structure that is pointed to and hurt something sacred if you care to. < You're not using C then. While it's possible to do: < < char *pd = destpointer; < char *ps = srcpointer; < < for (i = 0 ; i < sizeof(somestruct) ; i++) < *pd++ = *ps++; On some system this produses different code (usually bigger) on say z80 this will produce discrete code that is a monster. < That's going about things the hard way. Why not: < < memcpy(destpointer,srcpointer,sizeof(somestruct)); Than this. Z80 library has enough smarts to use the LDIR/LDDR instruction that is fast and efficient. < Or even: < < *destpointer = *srcpointer; Unpredictable how the compiler will do it even if it works. This can be horrendus! < One thing---I can't write Assembly on linus.slab.conman.org (an AMD 586) <and have it run on tweedledum.slab.conman.org (68040). C at least lets me <write code that will run on both machines. As would pascal, ADA, basic{maybe}, fortran and heaven help me COBOL. I find that as the machine gets smaller and resources are less prodigious the progression is BIG HLL--> smaller language--> ASM, like Pascal, C and then ASM. Allison

24 years, 4 months

Survey: Vintage Computer Collecting

by retro＠retrobits.com

Hello everybody, I'm a reasonably new member of the list. I've been collecting vintage computers for about a year now, and have decided to put up a web site dedicated to vintage computing. The website is located at: http://www.retrobits.com I'd like to ask for your help in completing a survey. Here are the details: I'm going to launch the first edition of retrobits.com on March 15th. In that edition, I'd like to include an article about collecting vintage computers. It would be helpful to include a wide variety of people's experiences with collecting - therefore, I'm inviting you to fill out a brief survey about vintage computer collecting. If you have the time and can participate, you'd really help me out, as well as helping out other folks who are interested in collecting (or just getting started). If you would like to respond, please send the responses directly to me to avoid cluttering the list (unless you believe others in the list would be interested in your responses, in which case, go for it!). My e-mail address is: retro(a)retrobits.com Note: I will NOT give out your e-mail addresses to anybody, period, end of discussion. If you'd like to be credited by name for your participation in the survey, let me know and I'll be happy to do it. Here are the questions: 1: Why do you collect vintage computers? For instance: nostalgia, programming, historical interest, gaming 2: Where do you collect vintage computers? For instance: thrift shops, garage sales, eBay, other auction sites 3: What advice would you give someone just starting out collecting? For instance: what to avoid, how to restore dirty/broken systems Extra credit: I'd be really interested to hear what computers people collect (e.g., micros or minis, brands, age range) Thanks in advance for your participation! Look for the first results on March 15th. As more responses come in over time, I'll upgrade the collecting area on the site with the additional details! Earl Evans

24 years, 4 months

Kids computers

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Old Pentium class computers make excellent kids computers. But if you're Whats wrong with an old 386 or 486 box? I have a 386sx/16 running W95 and despite what you might believe it's a decent quick and dirty printserver to a HP4L. Another 286sx/25 has a ISA based logic probe and analog card in it. I have two 486DX2/66 one running NT4/SP4 on 4.3gb and the other running Linux (RH5.2) on 500mb, both are a kick to use and perform surprizingly well. Both support SVGA 1mb, have networking and CDrom. Don't put down those older and often free to cheap 386/486 boxen. When did pentium become the required cpu? Allison

24 years, 4 months

languages

by mtapley＠swri.edu

<several discussions of America's educational system snipped> ....So that's why we home-school, which pretty much sums up *my* opinion. Hmm... what's the ideal home-schooling computer? I want the kids to own the computer, be able to learn languages (Pascal, C++, Forth, open to suggestions, as well as Japanese, Russian, etc.), be able to do science projects with it, be able to word-process but not necessarily spell-check, be able to run good educational software. I'm already biased towards a Mac Plus (and own one), but certainly ready for suggestions. NeXT? MicroVax 3100? Cost, hardware and software, is a factor, of course. I'm *hoping* this is an on-topic question, in as much as classic computers are cheaper and simpler but demand more of the user to make work properly and therefore make better learning tools than current machines; if the answer is a new wintel box or a new iBook, I'd still like to hear it but I'd like to hear it off-list. TIA, - Mark

24 years, 4 months

languages (Teachers)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. From what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys, both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Secondly, he doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off, or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, but he only has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard enough to earn a lot of money. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote: > >> >>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: >> >>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >> >>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >> >>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >> >>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us > >True. > >My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers >that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make >what my mother did as a LPN (2years college). > >When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over >any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year. >It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college >education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in >a technical degreee. > >Allison > >

24 years, 4 months

languages (Ebonics)

by Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de

> I use dialect in some of my writing, but there are certainly purposes and > occasions where it is inappropriate. In those, I would use standard > English. Here in New England we speak differently, although the > dialect is not as extreme as BEV, an is mostly pronunciational. Notice > how media insists on a standard pronunciation, that's why all our local > tv new readers sound like foreigners. It's really amusing to hear them > try to say Quonnochontaug for the first time. Same her in Germany, but considering the practice in (German) Swiss TV, where interviews are DOUBBED or SUBTITELED in Standard German, we are still on the good side. They realy sub title them ... it's always a strange thing - hearing a person speaking German (Well, Schwitzerduetsch) and tead German subtitles ... Belive it or not, they are not just adding them when guy's from the behind the forest are interviewed, but always. That's Strange! H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

24 years, 4 months

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test-drb March 2000