<Can you restrict an architecture like this? I've never heard of an
<Interlectual Property case being based on the fact that the 2 products
<(CPUs) run the same instruction set.
DEC and oh I forget on PDP-8, NEC and intel on 8086/V20 and plenty more.
<Also, be warned that if you're going to use FPGAs you have to use the
<manufacturer's tools which are not going to be Open-Source, and which are
<not going to run under Open-Source OSes. Several of us have moaned about
Not all are restricted to one vendor. Just why bother.
Now, if you really want to build a PDP-11 of any kind yank the t11 chip
>from a dead Vt240/241/RQDXn and build one to suit ones self. It's a real
PDP-11 and it does run RT11 (assuming standard devices) as the falcon card
does. If 64kb of addressing is not enough try building a mapper like most
of the 11s have, a couple of 74189s should do. This is a nice 40 pin dip
and not much hard to design with than z80 though the z80 never offered
things like selectable 8/16bit bus or selectable start/restart addresses
not to mention cycle and clock options. Performance is better than LSI-11
if memory runs without wait states.
Creating the chip is half the task, putting it to work is the real fun.
Allison
>I suggested to some folks, off list, that perhaps DEC should make the
>PDP-11 architecture "open source" in the sense of allowing anyone to
>produce PDP-11 capable processors but was told that Mentec has purchased
>the rights to the PDP-11 architecture from DEC. What's up with that? True?
>False? Kind-a true? (I know Mentec sells PDP-11 compatible computers)
Mentec sells several different kinds of PDP-11 compatible computers,
some of them based on the DEC/Harris J-11 chipset, others based around
custom FPGA's. See http://www.mentec.com/ for a rundown.
Other companies have made drop-in PDP-11 replacements over the years, too.
QEI (based in MA) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/34's, 11/44's, and
11/70's, and Setasi (in Florida) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/70's.
I don't think there's any legal impediment to picking up a PDP-11 processor
handbook and implementing your own hardware design of the architecture.
(Just as there's nothing stopping you from building a PC-clone motherboard
or a x86 CPU based on published specs.)
In the end, you'll have to be sure that you aren't stepping on anybody's
patents, of course.
>Given the complexity of the 11/70 CPU it should be possible to put the
>entire thing inside a relatively inexpensive FPGA these days.
The faster Mentec boards are heavily built around FPGA's, they are
certainly one common way to go for such things.
> Given
>something like NetBSD that is already multi-architecture aware, that would
>make it possible to have an open source OS running on it.
I'm not sure that NetBSD is necessarily the way to go. It hogs memory
like crazy (not something you want to do in the 16-bit virtual
address space of an -11), the standard compiler (gcc) is a real CPU-eater
compared to "native" compilers, and changes to the predominantly Intel-based
sources take a long time to get "fixed up" for the less common architectures.
Heck, the current Vax port is actually less functional (in terms of
stability and hardware support) than it was three years ago.
OTOH, for $100 you can get a Unix source license ( see
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/index.html ) and run 2.11BSD on your
hardware, which gives you just about everything you could want from a
modern Unix (including networking) that will actually fit. And it
doesn't use gcc - that's a *real* advantage on an -11!
Yes, I have run RT-11, RSX-11, and 2.11 BSD on systems that didn't
have a single DEC hardware component in them. (For example, a Mentec
M100 CPU and Andromeda disk controller in a third-party Q-bus backplane.)
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
I don't know if you are still interest in any of this stuff but I have
copies
of the CS/80 protocol. I actually support a system that was development
in the early 80's and is still in use by British Telecom.
We have prototype and are putting together a proposal to use a PC with a
GPIB card to emulate a disk drive using the CS/80 command set.
Let me know if you have any interest in this.
Regards,
Bruce Gosson
Braddan Bridge Consulting
bgosson(a)cyberus.ca
This has been an interesting, uh, exchange of and on many
viewpoints and I've found value in quite a bit of it, i.e. it makes
you think. But I do take exception to
>> Even business do things they don't like or wish to do.
Businesses, just like the independent people who run them, can only
do what they want to do. You do what you want to do - always. You
might hide your decisions behind the guise of "business made me do
it" or "my spouse won't let me keep the 5360 in the house" or some
such, but you made the decision, your choice is your choice.
Businesses both big and small hide behind this "we didn't want to do
it" nonsense as do individuals - but you can only do what it is you
indented to do, what you want to do, unless of course you have a
dirty bus connector or a bad memory module or a flaky CPU or faulty
programming, eh?
You list the possible decisions, the possible outcomes of each
decision, the relative plus and minus of each variable - and then
you decide what course of action to take, You do what you want.
BTW - Does anybody know of any hobby level (cheep) GP-IB programming
tools? All I want to do is control several DVM and a counter and
function generator - minimal stuff for very basic bench automation.
Any ideals? Thanks
Roger Goswick
Coca-Cola Bottling
rdg
included are the headers as I typically get them. RDFmail collects the
whole mess from SGI unix (or whatever they call it) via mail.
Allison
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<Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:48:41 -0400
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<From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net>
<To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washingto
<Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP
<In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9908221207410.8085-100000@shell1>
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<
<Upon the date 12:08 PM 8/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like:
<>On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Christian Fandt wrote:
<>
<>> Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containi
<>> all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece o
<>> Sellam's msg:
<>
<>Wow, I've never seen that stuff. Does that appear for every message you
<>read in your mailer software? It's probably in the headers, but PINE
<>doesn't display it for me.
<
<Hi Sellam,
<
<Just got back from a mini vacation down to Dayton, Oh. (That Air Force
<Museum just gets better and better . . . :) So, I'm just getting into a
<stack of 448 messages piled up since Sunday AM.
<
<Yes, it does appear for every msg from ClassicCmp. Those five lines just
<suddenly started to be included with the header one day and that day _may_
<IIRC, have coincided with the new list server software Derek mentioned tha
<the U. of Wash. installed.
<
<Here's the five extra header lines copied again for those who weren't
<keeping track of the thread early on:
<
<"List-Help: <http://www.washington.edu/computing/listproc/>
<List-Unsubscribe:
<<mailto:listproc@u.washington.edu?body=unsubscribe%20classiccmp>
<List-Subscribe:
<<mailto:listproc@u.washington.edu?body=subscribe%20classiccmp%20YourName>
<List-Owner: <mailto:classiccmp-request@u.washington.edu> (Human contact fo
<the list)
<List-Post: <mailto:classiccmp@u.washington.edu>"
<
<I haven't ever used PINE but I understand it is a text only email program
<(which is what we only need 99.95% of the time.) So, perhaps there's some
<funny stuff going on with the formatting of the text and PINE just happily
<ignores it. With Eudora Pro, for example, those URLs are underlined links
<and all I have to do is click on one if I need to use that function. Sort
<of handy I think, but it does add to the length of the msg file.
<
<I suppose Derek may have weighed-in already with his expert input on the
<list s/w, so I'd better shut up now. (Hey, he's a student and keeper of
<this list at the U. of Washington, so that makes hime the de facto "expert"
<
<Regards, Chris
<-- --
<Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
<Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
< Member of Antique Wireless Association
< URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
<
<4MB on the motherboard and two daughter boards with 12MB and
<8MB. The two daughter boards connect together with only one
<connecting to the motherboard. Where would you attach another
<board with 8MB more memory?
You don't. You use a 16mb card. They were configured in different sizes.
For a VAX 8-16mb (pre1990) was a LOT of memory and VMS (or ultrix)
typically ran very well in that. I have a 3100m10e with 24mb (1x16 +1x8).
The other thing is not all 3100s used the same scheme for mounting memory.
My 3100/m76 uses a version of 72pin simms (it was a later machine).
<Although the system came with a hard drive and OpenVMS, I got the
<hobbyist OpenVMS CD-ROM and want to install it on another hard
<drive that I've added. The drive is an IBM Model 0663-H, which
<is a 1GB (slightly less, actually, if you count in base 2) drive.
<The specs for the drive say it is "compatible" with the VS3100
<when a configuration is made using a SCSI command (which I have
<no way of doing, of course--it must be done by a driver). I
<connect the drive, the VS3100 console sees it fine, and then I
<try to do a low-level format using Test 75. At various times
<(varies randomly) into the formatting progress I get an error
<"PV_SCS_FMT_ERR#2", which I have no idea of its meaning. What
<does this mean?
I though test 71 is the righ one. Also you have to have the correct SCSI
address (anything but 6, thats the vax). Also most of the 3100s have two
scsi busses with disks as DKAnnn, or DKBnnn.
<Is there any termination on the internal SCSI A bus on this
<machine, or does the last drive on the cable need to do it?
<(The IBM Model 0633-H doesn't have any, and it was on the
<middle connector.)
I believe SCSI A is self terminating if the cable forms a loop. If the
MV3100 has a different SCSI scheme you may need to terminate. Also SCSI B
on all of mine needs termination.
I've used non DEC drives successfully. Thought he CDrom can be installed
comfortably on a single RZ56 (680mb) and VMS will fit on much smaller. I've
just done my first 7.2 install on my M10e, the base system with everything
used less than 300k blocks (150mb).
Allison
Hello, all:
Last night, I sort of got approval from Jim Butterfield to post a copy
of The First Book of KIM. He really didn't say "do it", but he said to look
at this other guy's work and look at the copyright in the book (it's really
an anti-copyright).
First off, here's a useful URL
http://www.total.net/~yhpun/Kim-1.html
Second, I'll more than likely start scanning the book next week, to
eventually be posted on the secure area.
Rich
-----------------------------------
[ Rich Cini/WUGNET
[ ClubWin!/CW7
[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[ Collector of "classic" computers
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
<---------------------------- reply separator
The recent 'Color TV' spam has been traced and identified, and a formal
complaint has been filed. If anyone else wishes to express their
displeasure, please feel free to send your comments (preferably polite) to:
prion(a)diginet.net (He's listed as the administrative contact for the
domain ELIPIA.CO.KR, who is hosting KOTEC.NET -- the domain that spammed us).
tychoi(a)samsung.co.kr (Listed as the domain contact for unitel.co.kr, where
the spammer(s) are maintaining a mailbox).
Enjoy, but remember... one catches a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
