< I have three Sigmas... but 2 DEC 11/23 chassis... [BA11-N] hmmm.
BA11N is the box you want to use a RLV11 in! Pop that puppy in with a
11/23 (m8189) and your cooking.
Allison
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: Computer busses....
>>
>> You've hit most of the important signals. One I'd add, however, is a
data
>> bus disable, and perhaps an address bus disable as well. This would
allow a
>> front panel or other bus mastering device to steal cycles under certain
>> circumstances.
>
>He's got BUSreq/BUSack. That's all you really need for a DMA device (at
>least if those signals have similar definitions to the Z80 ones of that
>name). When the Z80 gets a Busreq, it tri-states the internal
>address/data buffers IIRC, and you can use BUSack to tri-state the
>external ones that you should have added.
While it's true that's all you'd need, it's not all you might want, and
while I agree that you can and probably should do that, I've actually seen
it done more by using the processor to do much of the work by jamming a jump
to a front-panel-or diagnostic-card-resident monitor. I doubt, however,
that I've seen this stuff more than a dozen times altogether. I've seen
plenty of front-panels which were connected only to make the lights blink.
>A frontpanel can easily be implemented as a DMA device using those signals.
>
>-tony
>
< I flesh out an 11/23, attach the RLV11/RL02s, put in one of the
<several OSes that seem to be bootable, and press the big "Go"
<button. Now....
<
< Doesn't the OS on the disk have to be made specific to the
<processing environment it is living in? Like, sysgenned for instance??
<
< Excuse what might be an obvious d'oh! but this is how I learn..
Good point... Depends on the OS though. For RT11 it has to be set up to
boot from the device and media in use but will after that run with any
cpu (I've done it for 11/03 through 11/73). Unix will be fussier.
RSTS and RSX-11 configure after boot for the CPU and envirnment it finds.
generally if the software is configured for say an 11/23 it will run on
the 11/73, 11/83 and 11/93. There is a good change it will also run on
the /03 if it RT11 if not the XM (requires the MMU the 11/03 does not have).
most of the 11s are very compatable at a general level.
< Also I think it is most cool that you folks are taking time to
<help get these neat old systems and thier software up and flying again.
I have a operating 11/23 in a shoebox (BA11VA) with tu58. An 11/23B in
a BA11n and a 11/73 in a ba11s the later two have assorted disks and all.
the 11/23b is one I used while at DEC dataing back to 84 in the mill.
Allison
<What might be fun would be an S-100 card to serve as an interface to a
<Monochrome/Hercules equivalent card and an IBM-style keyboard, since these
They do exist! Hercules made cards for the s100 machines that ran DOS!
<Fire). One of those little switch boxes would serve just fine. The 8.0 MH
<Z80 wouldn't be sufficient to drive a VGA, so no need for anything fancy.
Why not? I'm currently planning to use ISA16 and herc video for a z280
system. Z280 has a 16 bit bus mode. The only thing needed to support
herc using a z80 is a MMU to allow mapping the display out of the address
space so that you have room for CP/M. I've done some testing to verify
this will work.
<It could even support two short ISA cards.
More if you buffer the bus!
Allison
>RT11 will run in more than 256k (mine has 2mb). The RLV11 however limits
>you to 256k, though you could write your one handler... nah.
It doesn't really limit RT-11... what it does do is require that
any I/O transfers must occur entirely in the low 256kb of memory.
This would require you to ensure that all programs which are going
to do I/O to the device have their user buffers in the low 256kb
of memory.
As for writing your own handler... you could instead make modifications
to the DL handler such that it 'trampolines' the data from a user
buffer anywhere in memory to a system buffer (maybe in the handler)
which is assured to be in the low 256kb, and do the transfer from
there...
That is a technique which other OSes have done to take care of the
problem...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
>BA11N is the box you want to use a RLV11 in! Pop that puppy in with a
>11/23 (m8189) and your cooking.
There are a couple of different backplanes which could be in a BA11-N
box. Some are Q/Q and some are Q/CD... I've had BA11-N boxes with
both. One of my 11/83 systems is in a BA11-N box with a Q22/Q22
backplane...
So be careful, check the backplane type first...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Jerome Fine <jhfine(a)idirect.com> wrote:
>Also, a few cabinets that hold the RL02 drives. I will
>probably have to let go of the RL02 drives as well, but
>not for about a year.
>
>This stuff is too heavy to ship and I don't have the facility
>to box it in any case. Local Pickup ONLY - Toronto.
Darn.. with the 11/34a I got recently, I sure could use an
RL02 to put on it... Too bad it is local pickup only...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
> The backplane is third-party, not DEC, and has integral
>termination (no terminator card per se.) It has 8 quad-height slots.
>
> 1A-B M8192YB 1C-D MTI MXV22 (RX11 clone)
> 2A-B MTI MLV11M HD cont. 2C-D ?? 306 BootRoms etc.
> 3A-B M8043 quad SLU (console) 3C-D blank
> 4A-B Camintonn MLV11-J 4x SLU 4C-D blank
> 5A-B blank 5C-D blank (was Pertec VRG-Q)
> 6A-B Camintonn 256KW MOS [4164] 6C-D blank
> 7A-B blank 7C-D blank
> 8A-B blank 8C-D blank
This is surely a strange configuration... the fact that there
are individual boards in the CD side of things indicates that
it is probably a Q-Q backplane, in which case you surely should
NOT plug the RLV11 into it. But the confusuing thing is the
fact that you ahve so many blank slots where one would expect
a grant continuity card if it were Q-Q...
"Is it a puzzlement..."
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Sorry, should have completed that message... the option you need
for UNIBUS to run the RL drives is an RL11.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
> This I can do... electromechanically. I think I know the answer
>to the next question, but For the Record:
>
> I flesh out an 11/23, attach the RLV11/RL02s, put in one of the
>several OSes that seem to be bootable, and press the big "Go"
>button. Now....
>
> Doesn't the OS on the disk have to be made specific to the
>processing environment it is living in? Like, sysgenned for instance??
"It depends". RT-11 is pretty versatile, and not awfully picky about
being booted on a particular type of processor. (With the exception,
oh, of trying to boot RT11XM on a 11/03...!) RSX-11M and M+ will complain
if a peripheral specified in the SYSGEN isn't there in the boot process,
but generally the base OS will come up all the way. RSTS/E can be
very picky about what hardware it'll work on, but as long as you stick
to the autoconfigure rules you're OK. Many of the PDP-11 Unices can
be quite particular, especially if you're booting a non-Generic kernel.
All of the above *can* be made to break on anything except a particular
hardware configuration, but generally this takes a bit more effort.
One thing you'll have to realize is that your current hard drive controller
is emulating a RL02, and you won't be able to use it along with a "real"
RL02 unless you do a SYSGEN or otherwise (there are some shortcuts) put
a second DL:-type driver into the system. You'll also have to
set one piece of hardware and one of the drivers to different CSR's and
vectors.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
