< Well I'm trying to rebuild an Altair but it's ending up with mostly N*
<parts! So far it has a N* disk controller and it's getting a N* CPU card
<(when I get it finished.) I have quite a bit of N* application software
<that I've bought over the 'net. Looks like it's going to be a N* in an
<Altair's skin! I'll be needing some memory and I/O cards and other stuff
<after I get the CPU working. I know I need some N* operating system disks
Not an unusual config for altairs in the late '70s. Altair disks were about
4x the price of the NS* (MDS-A) one and it was smaller too.
Allison
Well, Parrrrrdonn me! My statements re: N* reflected a locally developed
cultural bias developed during the early years of CP/M compilers, which
often generated code blocks too large to be used in a N* with its BASIC ROM
in place. There were some locally-generated business software packages
which, for a time, wouldn't run on N* because of the small TPA. This was
later resolved, in that the code was rebuilt with a smaller map. The FDC
compatibility problem went away when the SW vendor got a N*. This suggests
the N* was, in general, popular enough to warrant such steps.
The main issue for me, of course, was the compatibility issue, which, as
you've pointed out, could be dealt with by selective paring and pruning.
That was not cost-efficient, however, and, since my living and that of my
colleagues of the time was dependent on making things work at the lowest
possible overall cost, the notion of buying a box and then
replacing/augmenting some of its innards was not fiscally palatable. The
approach which suited me best at the time was to buy a box, e.g. from
Integrand, (Visalia, CA) which unified the drive and system packages, and
put whatever the currently "best" board set or assortment in it. That
usually meant CCS or SD Systems, at the time.
I did, after all, indicate that the N*'s were not readily impeachable on
grounds of functional or reliability issues.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Stek <bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 11:17 AM
Subject: RE: Northstar Horizon - them's fightin' words!
>Now just a minute, there! As a founding member (along with John Dvorak
when
>he sold N* software out of his home in his "Software Review" newsletter) of
>the International NorthStar User's Association (INSUA) I take issue! The
>NorthStar's "limitations" (so-called) were there because they were one of
>the pioneers with an early 4 MHz Z-80 powered S-100 box without the
switches
>and blinkin' lights so beloved by members of this group (myself included,
as
>an IMSAI owner w/ N* drives!)- this was prior to CP/M, when 32k was a
>mammoth amount of memory. With its sleek, brushed aluminum front panel and
>walnut cabinet it could fit into the office environment of those
>professionals / pioneers who wanted a micro to do useful office work. N*'s
>BCD arithmetic gave exact answers even before MBASIC users began to
complain
>about "rounding" errors. And for serious number crunching, add N*'s
>hardware FP board, and top it off with Allen Ashley's N* BASIC compiler
>(under N* DOS or CP/M) and you had a very fast system. A 56k CP/M system
>was considered more than adequate for most programs. What programs in
>particular couldn't you run? Of course we all wanted a bigger TPA, and
>there were ways to achieve this. The most elegant, IMHO, was to replace
the
>N* controller with one from Morrow which could handle N*'s native
>hard-sectored format, as well as soft-sectored 5" and 8" formats. You
could
>also move N*'s boot PROM from E800 to F800 without too much difficulty, and
>add an 8" controller as well.
>
>Curiosity, indeed!
>
>Bob Stek
>bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com
>Saver of Lost SOLs (and expanding Horizons!)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
>[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher
>Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 12:01 PM
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon
>
>
>I am not, nor have I been, trying to get a Horizon, or any other model of
N*
>going. I recently arranged to give away my last bit of N* hardware, a Z80A
>CPU card. I have had lots of trouble finding people who would take it.
The
>problem, of course, isn't that they don't work, because they do, and very
>well, too, but rather that the N* environment is so limited, particularly
in
>the Horizon with its 8K ROM space, that many compiled programs won't work
>because the TPA is too small. What's more, the FDC isn't capable using of
>CP/M-standard (IBM-3740, SSSD 8") diskettes.
>
>They're OK as a curiosity, but back in the lat '70's and early '80's, they
>were not well received because of the TPA and FDC issues mentioned above,
>and I warn everyone off them due to their resulting limitations.
>
>regards,
>
>Dick
>-----Original Message-----
>From: JusmeSJ(a)aol.com <JusmeSJ(a)aol.com>
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 10:30 PM
>Subject: Northstar Horizon
>
>
>>Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and
>>currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller,
>i/o,
>>mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on
>>northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic,
N*Cp/m
>>etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know.
>>
>>Steve Benedict
>>Redwood City, California
>
<well, too, but rather that the N* environment is so limited, particularly i
<the Horizon with its 8K ROM space, that many compiled programs won't work
There is only 2k of ram space (e800h to efffh) the upper 4k is usable.
This space is carved out by the memory mapped disk controller not the cpu
any other component.
<because the TPA is too small. What's more, the FDC isn't capable using of
<CP/M-standard (IBM-3740, SSSD 8") diskettes.
Typical TPA using a NS is 56k, though if you put the bios in the top 4k that
58k.
ALL if that is ONLY if the NS* controller is used as the rest of the system
is not biased in any way by eprom/rom maps.
<They're OK as a curiosity, but back in the lat '70's and early '80's, they
<were not well received because of the TPA and FDC issues mentioned above,
<and I warn everyone off them due to their resulting limitations.
They were popular and widely used, thats why they are common. The greatest
featur of them at that time was they worked more so than most of the other
s100 gear. No if you want MMU equiped CPU and DMA controllers there were
few if any of those before the early 80s and the NS* is a 1977 machine.
I have two, one running a MDS-A single density controller in the
configuration you'd find on in back in 1977 save for I have 3 half height
floppies where the 2 full height ones are and a half height (st225) hard
disk using a teltek controller on with a 52k tpa (the hard disk driver
eats 2k) and the second has a softsector controller of my design that is
62k tpa, the z80 is been modified (different crystal) for 8mhz and supports
a hard disk (also teltek controller). I consider them fine 4mhz z80 CPM
systems and they run everything. NS* dos is also ok and the hard sectored
(real NS* controller) runs UCSD Pascal P system as well (I have the original
NS* build I bought in 1978).
As a collectors sytem or very exciting Z80 system these are not it. They
were too common for collectable and are only classic. As a really fancy
no holds z80 system again they were vanilla. They did get purchased in
gobs around '78-80 as business turnkey boxes as they were known to work and
most of the bad press they got was the shugat SA400 floppies (not rugged
drive!) and the 16K NS* ram was not so good (plenty of other ram cards
were substituted very successfully).
You want a hot (s100) z80 system? Look at CCS, Compupro, Morrow, Vector
or one few get to see a full front pannel Ithica Intersystems.
You want fast... Teltek or SDS single board s100, these were Z80 4/6/8mhz,
2 serial, parallel printer and FDC plus 128k ram on one card.
The one system turned 21 this year! The other was a 1980 build.
Rather than get into the S100 vs XXX bus... S100 was a really badly
designed bus (fell in to it would be the most kind) but it worked if
understood it's quirks. At early 80s the issue was cost and software
not the bus used anyway.
Allison
I am not, nor have I been, trying to get a Horizon, or any other model of N*
going. I recently arranged to give away my last bit of N* hardware, a Z80A
CPU card. I have had lots of trouble finding people who would take it. The
problem, of course, isn't that they don't work, because they do, and very
well, too, but rather that the N* environment is so limited, particularly in
the Horizon with its 8K ROM space, that many compiled programs won't work
because the TPA is too small. What's more, the FDC isn't capable using of
CP/M-standard (IBM-3740, SSSD 8") diskettes.
They're OK as a curiosity, but back in the lat '70's and early '80's, they
were not well received because of the TPA and FDC issues mentioned above,
and I warn everyone off them due to their resulting limitations.
regards,
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: JusmeSJ(a)aol.com <JusmeSJ(a)aol.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 10:30 PM
Subject: Northstar Horizon
>Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and
>currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller,
i/o,
>mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on
>northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m
>etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know.
>
>Steve Benedict
>Redwood City, California
Anybody interested in this Tandy 1000? Please contact the owner directly.
Reply-to: jjones2(a)csuhayward.edu
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:17:54 -0700
From: Jean Jones <jjones2(a)csuhayward.edu>
Subject: Old Tandy Computer
Hi,
I have a Tandy 1000 w/ dot matrix printer and monitor in my garage. I
have floppies to go with it. Desk mate etc. DOS 3.0 on floppy to run
it Word perfect 5.0 on floppies
Well, it still works(sound effects and all) In fact, it only left my 12
year-old son's room LAST MONTH to live in garage. He wrote his 6th
grade reports on it last year in WP 5.0
I guess I am crazy, but will not let this vintage 1980 computer go to
the dump. Are you interested???
Will donate to good home!!
J2
Sellam International Man of Intrique and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!!
Stay tuned for more information
or contact me to find out how you can participate
http://www.vintage.org
Hi all,
I've got a SparcPrinter with the lp card and cables that could be
available to a local (too heavy/delicate to ship). I also have a
Sparc1 hanging around that you could turn into a print server. No
reasonable (or other) offers refused, trades are great. If someone out of
the area is absolutely desperate for one, I'll drive it over to Mailboxes
etc at your expense/liability...
Sorry it's not quite to the list's definition of "classic" (soon!), but I
thought someone on the list might be able to use it. It's actually a
pretty decent laser printer, just kind of slow. Using the Sparc1 w/Linux,
you could set it up as a print server for Unix/Windows/Macintosh machines
(I have the lpviio.h file to modify Ghostscript too). I'm just out of room
and just got an Apple Personal Laserwriter NTR for my desk, so something's
got to go.
Cheers,
Aaron
I tried that downgrade from VT180 to Vt100 and you know what? it
Works! Now heres a little Cool (good compliment) to those wonderous DEC
engineers who must have loved to play with weird and unusual designs. Py
point of View also stems from my expirence with my Rainbow 100 Computer
and what I learned about Both the Vt180 and the Rainbow 100.
DEC's engineers loved to lay their add-on boards flat. Unlike the
IBM Pc type of Perpendudicular layout.
Dec loves to stack addons on top of addons! Lets see, the VT100's
AVO is stacked on top of the Controller, the STP board has a small
satelite board on top of it. (I made a goof when I said there was an
ocilator circut on it. it consists of 3 chips. Lets say you wanted to make
an Addon for the AVO.. EASY! Stack one More on it. Oh yeah, you are out of
room there. Oh well. so run a ribbon cable to the two Empty Card cage
slots of my Vt180!
These people from reading "Hackers" loved to allow people to
tinker with their stuff, Dec loved them so much that they sold Service
manuals with diagnostics and programming info! I have the Rainbow 100
TEchnical guide and the admendum which tells you alot about How the
various boards work! In fact the MIT hackers added additonal instructions
to thier PDP computers (the older transistorinzed one *PDP 8?) Its quite
a shock compared to the modern plastic, glued shut and disposable
technoligy of today).
Their Idea of a Self Shorting Card slot blew my mind! Never saw
anything like that in my 31 years of life! Remove the STP and what you
got? a standard WORKING Vt100? No soldering! No trace cutting? and I love
this! No DIP Switches to switch!
In fact I bet one could even replace that STP with a generic
computer such as the SB180! or perhaps the guts of a H89 (using the Vt100
as a console!
While we are praising the older computer technoligy lets not
forget the H19/H88/H89 system. Like the Vt180 it was a terminal (H19) with
the CPU daugher board BEHIND the Terminal controller. From my futzing with
the system to fix my H88 that broke. (No, sigh.. its long gone) You had to
unbolt the board, unplug the Serial cable to the H19 board plug one of the
serial cables from a serial port into the h19 connector and Volia!
Instant H19 Terminal! and it had a "Flip Top" Case!
A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the
potential to be a dandy.
-- Anonymnous --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
B'ichela
<ALSO EXTREME WARNING!! The standard power supply for a VT103
<is able to output ONLY 16 amps on the 5 volts and very little on the 12 vol
this is a problem and if you pick the cards right a Q22 11/23 can be built
but its tight for power.
If the disk is in an external box power is less a problem.
<While I definitely agree that the VT103 was a very interesting piece of
<hardware, what I do not understand is why it was not extended - unless
<DEC was so loath to admit that it could not add a hard drive at that point
It's product code was MDS-11A, it was intended as a small devopment system
for Falcon (KXT-11) card users. Also at that time KO made a point that
that PCs were not a business to persue.
there was a version that was Vt100 based and built for newspaper use.
The system had 11/23 base and was MOP loaded from the host. The keyboard
was NOT the stand VT100 one and had a lot more keys.
There were due to space in the box and parts that would fit however many
hacks (from DECs CSS, Computer special systems <for a price anything>)
and external to DEC.
Allison
At 03:16 PM 10/29/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I am playing with the PDP11 emulator by Bob Supnik, and I have a running
RSTS/E.
>
>I just recently figgured out how to add new users..
>I am still trying to figgure out how to send files to the "lineprinter"
>and how to punch files
RSTS was one of the first systems I hacked.
We used to make changes to the kernel on disk (like non-priving
the peek() statement), then crash it. The operators would reboot
and the changes would take effect.
Hey, I was in college at the time.
IIRC (and most times I don't), you wrote print files to disk
and used the 'que' program to send it to the system print queue.
You may also be able to open 'lp0:' and write directly.
Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com
System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting
lance(a)costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees
Went to the big Hamfest and Computer Expo here in St. Paul MN yesterday and found a few gems. Some are not yet 10 years old but getting there. I got HP 700/RX model C27088; a lot of ThinkPad items; new test patch cords 50 cents never opened; tons of software for various machines; early AdLib PC music system in the box; Sanyo EPROM programmer; lots of cables; some good books on microprocessors; new books on the Apple Newton; Heatkit service manuals, for keyboards,FD controllers,computers, portables, etc.; a MAC Portable Owner's guide in like new condition; and many other items (over 70). It was a fun day and I got to talk with other collectors there from our list.
