<The peripherals were never expandable, although a couple of engineers
<supposedly tried hacking a hard disk interface off the stacking connector
<in the 11/150. (An IDE interface would be slick if someone could do
<it).
The easiest way is to tweek the 8085 for the IO and use the floppy disk
or Tu58 connector as its a simple 8bit bidirectional parallel path.
the IDE side would have to have local smarts added.
If you want to expand it go qbus...
Allison
Well . . . here we go . . . the fact that N* memory mapped their FDC was one
thing that clearly would fall in the MISTAKE category. What the reason for
the existence of the smaller TPA resulting from memory mapping anything is
of no relevance. It was a justification for SOME of us, me included, to
draw a line through their products whenever they appeared in a list. Of
course their price would have been another.
Nevertheless, I ALWAYS noticed their ads in BYTE or KILLABROAD. They looked
nice . . . kind-of like an ALTAIR or IMSAI, but without those annoying
switches.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon
>
><well, too, but rather that the N* environment is so limited, particularly
i
><the Horizon with its 8K ROM space, that many compiled programs won't work
>
>There is only 2k of ram space (e800h to efffh) the upper 4k is usable.
>This space is carved out by the memory mapped disk controller not the cpu
>any other component.
>
><because the TPA is too small. What's more, the FDC isn't capable using of
><CP/M-standard (IBM-3740, SSSD 8") diskettes.
>
>Typical TPA using a NS is 56k, though if you put the bios in the top 4k
that
>58k.
>
>ALL if that is ONLY if the NS* controller is used as the rest of the system
>is not biased in any way by eprom/rom maps.
>
><They're OK as a curiosity, but back in the lat '70's and early '80's, they
><were not well received because of the TPA and FDC issues mentioned above,
><and I warn everyone off them due to their resulting limitations.
>
>They were popular and widely used, thats why they are common. The greatest
>featur of them at that time was they worked more so than most of the other
>s100 gear. No if you want MMU equiped CPU and DMA controllers there were
>few if any of those before the early 80s and the NS* is a 1977 machine.
>
>I have two, one running a MDS-A single density controller in the
>configuration you'd find on in back in 1977 save for I have 3 half height
>floppies where the 2 full height ones are and a half height (st225) hard
>disk using a teltek controller on with a 52k tpa (the hard disk driver
>eats 2k) and the second has a softsector controller of my design that is
>62k tpa, the z80 is been modified (different crystal) for 8mhz and supports
>a hard disk (also teltek controller). I consider them fine 4mhz z80 CPM
>systems and they run everything. NS* dos is also ok and the hard sectored
>(real NS* controller) runs UCSD Pascal P system as well (I have the
original
>NS* build I bought in 1978).
>
>As a collectors sytem or very exciting Z80 system these are not it. They
>were too common for collectable and are only classic. As a really fancy
>no holds z80 system again they were vanilla. They did get purchased in
>gobs around '78-80 as business turnkey boxes as they were known to work and
>most of the bad press they got was the shugat SA400 floppies (not rugged
>drive!) and the 16K NS* ram was not so good (plenty of other ram cards
>were substituted very successfully).
>
>You want a hot (s100) z80 system? Look at CCS, Compupro, Morrow, Vector
>or one few get to see a full front pannel Ithica Intersystems.
>
>You want fast... Teltek or SDS single board s100, these were Z80 4/6/8mhz,
>2 serial, parallel printer and FDC plus 128k ram on one card.
>
>The one system turned 21 this year! The other was a 1980 build.
>
>Rather than get into the S100 vs XXX bus... S100 was a really badly
>designed bus (fell in to it would be the most kind) but it worked if
>understood it's quirks. At early 80s the issue was cost and software
>not the bus used anyway.
>
>
>Allison
>
>
The easiest thing would be to get a serial card, right?
I've got a box of Apple-][ stuff, prom programmers, serial boards, video
cards, Z-80 boards, memory cards, FDC's of various sorts, and a wire-wrap
card. So long as I have the ww-card, there's a chance of extracting useful
work from it someday.
If I find a duplicate DOS diskette or something, I could let you have it.
Remind me in a couple of days, please, and I'll let you know what I've
found. Unfortunately, I only saved one FDD, so I can't produce duplicates.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: rhudson(a)ix.netcom.com <rhudson(a)ix.netcom.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 5:30 PM
Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies
>Can anyone help me out I have a working apple ][ plus but no floppies with
DOS or Prodos on them.
>Also no serial port on the machine.
>
>Whats to do?
>
>Ron
>
>rhudson(a)ix.netcom.com
>
Well I just returned from the Jacksonville Florida hamfest. It wasn't as
big as I had been told it would be but I managed to score some NICE items.
Here's the list of the major items:
(1) Kontron Logic Analyzer, 150 Mhz, 64 channels. With a plug in 48 channel
pattern generator and all the probes, grabbers, keyboard, etc. I only
need a manual for it. Hint, Hint!
(2) Radio Shack model 1 computer with an expansion/interface box by
"Holmes". I don't know what's in the box but it looks like more memory
along with a disk drive interface and printer interface. also two RS disk
drives for it.
(3) Another Radio Shack Model 1 computer. THIS ONE DOES NOT HAVE THE
SEPARATE KEYPAD!
(4) A disk drive for a RS color computer.
(5) four large bags of data books.
(6) A BT-970 computer and printer with disks. The owner is supposed to
mail me the manuals. The BT-970 was built by Televideo for Bell Telephone
(hence the "BT" nomenclature). It looks like one of the funky 970
termianls. The monitor is mounted in a yoke to the left of the case and it
can swivel up and down. The case has two 5 1/4" disk drives. Both are
mounted vertically, one above the other. It does run MS-DOS. I've never
heard of one before, does anyone know any more about them?
Well, as Marvin and Mike have said, it was pretty good day at TRW,
tho really hot, like summer... I was not expecting to be working up
such a sweat on Halloween. East-coast folks: nyaaah nyaaahh!!! ;}
It seems it was 'freebie' day yesterday... my most striking gift
was a large box of 3/4" U-matic video tapes (13 of them) put out by
Digital, titled 'The VAX-11 Instruction Set' They are of course a
a video tutorial on that subject. I popped the first one into the
player last night and it put me straight to sleep... they are the
typical mid-80s hideously boring industrial instruction format..
the graphics of a school film and voice-over by some un-inflected
perfect-diction guy who pronounces mnemonic as 'newmunik'... but it
is still a cool find. I think when DVD software gets a little
cheaper it would be a good candidate for archival on that format.
TO clarify Mike Ford's previous post... the DEC item in question
was a PDT-11 (not PDP) with two other raw Shugart 8" drives. There
were several other old PCs and some removable HD docking chassis,
but I did rescue the PDT and now it lives here. Thanks Mike!!
Another listmember delivered several boxes of Good Stuff to me, of
interest to The List would be 2 VT-240s, a Wyse terminal, and a box
of 5 1/4" floppies full of vintage PC software.. which I *think*
Marvin stole from the back of my truck... better him than me.
Mike sold me a rack-mount Pentium 133 machine which I plan to use
as networking box to talk between my PDP-11s and uVAXs and the more
modern world... oh goodie... another Project.
Marvin, Mike Ford, Dave Dameron, Aaron Finney [+ three Child
Processes he has spawned], and Elliot all came to visit.. several of
us then went to Brunch, tho Mike and Dave got lost and Aaron was
otherwise occupied [ ;) ] so Marvin and I just talked trash about you
guys over chow. Some non-classiccmp friends of mine were there also,
as I was sharing one of my spaces with our local Ham repeater group,
so they could sell some jun^H^H^H^H 'Merchandise' and raise money for
upgrades, which they did.
All-in-all a very fun time in SoCal.
---------------------------------------------
Questions for the List:
Anyone ever use these instruction videos? I'm interested in your
opinions if you remember the tapes at all.
I recall a thread or two revolving around the PDT-11... before I
go slogging back thru the archives.. can someone give me a capsule
description of the PDT-11 and where it fit in the DEC scheme of things?
Cheers
John
In a message dated 10/31/99 6:00:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com writes:
> At 12:08 31-10-1999 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Something has been rattling around my head and I have the urge to get it
> >onto the ether (sorry I know it hasn't been a week yet, but the time did
> >change).
> >
> >Somebody needs to set up an archival site for EPROM images, and we need to
> >come up with a regular/practical method of getting data burnt into a chip
> >for anybody that needs it.
>
> <snip>
>
> Great minds think alike. I'm in the process of doing EXACTLY this. The
> kicker is twofold:
>
> 1). USWorst, or some other carrier, needs to make DSL service available in
> my area so I can put my domain on the air.
>
> 2). I'm concerned about copyright violation, even on the older stuff. The
> one thing I absolutely cannot deal with is a lawsuit!
>
> >More thinking, we need to keep the site private, or upload only, with
> >download permission only to selected individuals (who I would hope would
> >keep a mirror of the site in case the main site had a problem).
>
> Ahhhhh... now THAT might get me around the copyright issues! Set it up
> such that only the folks who own equipment that can use the images can get
> to it...
Have it the same way as they do the MAME ROM images; just have it on a
publicly accessable site, but just have a disclaimer that says for 'archival'
purposes only. everyone pretty much understands what the deal is. ;->
DB Young Team OS/2
--> this message printed on recycled disk space
view the computers of yesteryear at
http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm
(now accepting donations!)
>Somebody needs to set up an archival site for EPROM images, and we need to
>come up with a regular/practical method of getting data burnt into a chip
>for anybody that needs it.
A few thoughts:
1. Really, really old devices aren't well supported on even the best
modern programmers. (The obvious example of this is the Intel 1702A.)
In many cases you have to go back to "classic" programmers to get these
programmed.
2. Some devices (particularly PALs) with the security fuse blown *can* be
reverse engineered through either detective work or brute force.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and
currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller, i/o,
mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on
northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m
etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know.
Steve Benedict
Redwood City, California
<cultural bias developed during the early years of CP/M compilers, which
<often generated code blocks too large to be used in a N* with its BASIC RO
<in place. There were some locally-generated business software packages
What basic rom? The boot for the NS* and the memory mapped controller was
only 2k though awkward at E800h orgin. the top 4k was available and quite
usable.
<The main issue for me, of course, was the compatibility issue, which, as
<you've pointed out, could be dealt with by selective paring and pruning.
Back then compatability was a generic issue. unless you were locked to only
hardware do disk format (come to think of it, most of us were!).
<Integrand, (Visalia, CA) which unified the drive and system packages, and
<put whatever the currently "best" board set or assortment in it. That
<usually meant CCS or SD Systems, at the time.
Good stuff... but still thing like boot disks were generally locked to the
disk controller used and often the serial IO used. CPM was supposed to fix
that but being sparse in some areas people would go direct to the hardware
and... incompatable... to say it was annoyance of the era would be an
understatment.
Allison
