I think I have a line on a company that is getting ready to decommission
about 20 currently in-service HP 21MX systems in the central US.
If this pans out, is anyone interested (they'd be free except shipping
costs)? I sure as heck wouldn't need them all.....but then again <grin>
I'll keep the list posted...
Jay West
>Seriously, 10baseT has advantages. Particularly that a luser can't bring
>a segment down by taking the wrong plug off the T-piece.
Or plugging the network T straight into the "Video Out" BNC jack on the
back of their VT100. Been there, seen it happen!
>But for home hacking, 10base2 has the advantage that you don't need a hub
>(yes, they're cheap, but it's one more thing to find power for, and it's
>one more thing to fail and need repairs). You can easily add another
>machine. And IMHO BNC plugs are easier to fit than RJ45s particularly
>when working behind a rack.
Certainly for you and me, Tony, and probably for anyone else involved
in non-computer laboratory electronics, 52 ohm coax with BNC's on each
end are *all over* the place!
>It's up to you. Personnally, I run a mixture -- 10base2 around the main
>machines, and a 10baseT hub (with a BNC on it) for a couple of 'remote'
>machines.
At the moment, I've got 10Base2 connecting two machines on the second floor,
running down along the chimney to the basement, where it joins a twisted
pair hub, runs off to a half-dozen machines and terminal servers down here.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530
>> >I can perhaps help with the 'lure'. For me, speed is not that important
>> >(provided it's fast enough for _what I want to do_). What is important
is
>> >having a reliable machine that I can understand, repair, and keep going.
>> >And I find it a _lot_ easier to keep a PDP11 or an old VAX running than
>> >to keep a PC running.
>>
>> Yikesl I eliminated our Vax for PCs years ago and have never had any
>> problems! Vax was a "breakdown" nightmare... slower than NT for
filesharing
>
>Strange... My minicomputers (admittedly a lot older than the VAX you were
>probably running) seem to be reliable. I've had a lot more PC problems to
>sort out (despite having fewer PCs than minis).
>
>With minicomputers, I understand them well enough to _really_ find the
>fault and then fix it. That means it stays fixed. With PCs, most people
>swap a card or something and the fault goes away, only to come back a
>week or a month later (This is not an exaggeration. I've had faults that
>disapear for a week if you do _anything_ to the machine. But they sure as
>heck do come back. Normally they're a dry joint _somewhere_). I don't
>beleive a machine is fixed unless I can demonstrate what caused the fault
>(i.e. the bad component, dry joint, etc) and explain why it did what it
>did. Only then do I know the problem won't come back. And it doesn't!
>
We don't have that. I standardized our hardware and no one is allowed to add
anything to their computer. For the price of PC... if I find REAL lemon
(constant problems) then I will throw it in the garbage. Most problems are
quickly dealt with (I am not tech support - I am the Director of Research
and Development)
>
>> and DEC couldn't get "AppleTalk" right either. We found MAC IIs much
faster
>> even. (I toasted all the MACs in '96).
>>
>> Vax - Costly mother, boards expensive, service/software/license costs
>
>[...]
>
>> >Strange. I find the older machines are lot easier to understand than the
>> >more modern ones. And _much_ better documented.
>> >
>>
>> Thats not strange. Old systems USUALLY had parts and boards from a
limited
>> number of vendors, heavily tested... How many garages are knocking out
video
>
>These 2 comments (the one above the deletion and this one) make me think
>that you only regard computers down to the board level. I don't. I go
>down to _at least_ the gate level and sometimes beyond.
>
On fun time - sure... or If a hard drive has serious data on it that was NOT
backed up by a user/MPP then I WILL take a whole day to go through the drive
and save the data.... but I sure won't waste the taxpayers dollars pissing
around with a schematic when I am supposed to be designing/managing a
project which makes us cost effective. There is no advantage to any employer
to have a skilled engineer fixing old broken stuff when he could be making a
company profit through designs.
>What this means is, when I have a fault I don't start looking for a new
>board. I put the appropriate module on the extender, probe a bit with a
>LogicDart and find the dead chip. And change it. And I'll probably have
>it fixed before you've ordered a new board. And I'll almost certainly
I doubt that very much. We have every possible board/drive in stock in many
quantities for our entire line of PCs. If a unit goes down it's up very
quickly or replaced.
Many companies are tossing VAXes as they cannot afford to have a good chunk
of the company down while someone is "probing" a board. That was cool in the
70s but we have reached a point where it is unacceptable to have anyone
off-line for very long (much less an entire area).
I can't even begin to tell you the number of companies I have helped toss
their Vax junk for an NT/Novell set up.
>have it fixed before the new board has arrived.
>
I do REPAIR AT THE GATE LEVEL here at home, on bad HDs on sites I support
(through consulting on the side) and in rebuilding old minis for collectors
for cash (a PDP 11/05 at the gate level last month, 8/s at the transistor
level this month). Again, for fun. I spend some of my time at work designing
at the gate level, I wouldn't waste a minute opening a bad monitor...
john
>-tony
>
At 01:38 PM 10/27/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> Pick a centralized location for your hub, and home-run all the wires there.
>
>Probably should make one thing clear here, as long as it's just the one room
>and the garage, I plan on simply running one cable and connecting a hub in
>the house to a hub in the garage.
Well heck, why didn't you say so!
We thought you wanted to do a complete bow to stern wiring project.
Since you mentioned you wanted to do this the easiest way possible,
get a 50' or 100' patch cord, and connect an MDI (uplink) port on
one of your hubs to a MDIX (regular) on the other.
If you don't have an MDI port, then you have a couple of options:
1) If one of your hubs has an AUI port (db15, like a PC game port),
just get a transceiver.
2) Make the patch cord into a crossover by cutting off one end
and putting on a new plug with a different wire order.
Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418
lance(a)advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems
http://www.advantinc.com
>>Probably should make one thing clear here, as long as it's just the one room
>>and the garage, I plan on simply running one cable and connecting a hub in
>>the house to a hub in the garage.
>
>It's fallen a bit out of fashion in the past few years, but 10Base2
>(50-ohm RG58 Coax) is particularly useful for the "home runs" between
>twisted-pair hubs. Many twisted-pair hubs come with Coax connectors for
>just this purpose.
That is exactly what I do between the office and house. Between buildings is a
little over 300 feet so by the time it goes to the hubs at each end it is easily
400+ feet. From what I recall that is a little over what the 10BaseT spec was.
Considering you have your systems clustered and some are at 100BaseT I would not
even consider using the old phone wire between the hubs. I agree it is a PITA
to pull wire - I had a 4 inch conduit for over a year between the house and the
office before I got around to pulling the thinwire through.
Dan
--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Well done!. The 8/e is a machine that I like -- it's pretty easy to
> understand, and an elegant instruction set...
My first -8 was an -8/L. I still have it, but it currently needs more help
than the -8/e. It does not have correct behavior of the front panel switches
and I haven't had time to start module testing.
> > ...I currently have the chassis and PSU sitting side by side on the table
> > leaving me enough room for a hex-height 16K MOS card to hang over
> > the side of the OMNIBUS.
>
> ROFL! Sounds like the sort of thing that I do :-). 'What do you mean this
> configuration is not supported by Digital? It works, doesn't it' :-)
It seems to work just fine, and I made a point of mentioning it for Lawrence
LeMay who has an -8/e and an RL8A. The same arrangement should work for him
to get it all working together without having to aquire a hex-height expansion
box and OMNIBUS cables.
> If you need any help, I have an RX8e + RX01 on my PDP8/e. I also have the
> full prints for everything... So feel free to ask questions.
I have the bound -8/e maintenance doc set, so I think I'm OK there. For now,
just getting through either an OS boot or diagnostics will be the hurdle.
I still haven't heard anyone cough up any info on the PR/S01 tape reader.
Worst
case, I'll stick a scope on it and time the start/stop bits to guess the baud
rate. ISTR 2400, but I have never used this particular device.
Thanks again,
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530
>>
>> Gee, as much as folks like to pidgen-hole me, I'm really only trying to
>> understand the performance and lure of the old iron, like vaxes, in
>
>I can perhaps help with the 'lure'. For me, speed is not that important
>(provided it's fast enough for _what I want to do_). What is important is
>having a reliable machine that I can understand, repair, and keep going.
>And I find it a _lot_ easier to keep a PDP11 or an old VAX running than
>to keep a PC running.
Yikesl I eliminated our Vax for PCs years ago and have never had any
problems! Vax was a "breakdown" nightmare... slower than NT for filesharing
and DEC couldn't get "appletalk" right either. We found MAC IIs much faster
even. (I toasted all the MACs in '96).
Vax - Costly mother, boards expensive, service/software/license costs
rediculous. Brutal learning curve for new system support employees (not
everyone has a Vax at home), and of course Digitals "Unlimited Training" for
a year at $5000/employee! X-Windows? Yuck.The only thing I liked was RDB
(wonder WHO bought that?!??! :-) ). Foxpro was still faster.
I jumped in like many other large companies and quickly junked our
mainframes/minis for PCs.
>
>> relation to newer iron that I have or can use, and also understand
better.
>
>Strange. I find the older machines are lot easier to understand than the
>more modern ones. And _much_ better documented.
>
Thats not strange. Old systems USUALLY had parts and boards from a limited
number of vendors, heavily tested... How many garages are knocking out video
cards today!?!??!?! Old systems were easy to maintain for large sites, get a
million dollars from Finance and send it to DEC! It isn't so easy now... but
much easier for the end user.
>> This is, unfortunatly, gobbdleygook to me. "multiples of them for
parallelism"?
>> Why would this be necessary? Why can't one fast one be used?
>
>There are good electronic reasons why you can't switch bus lines as fast
>as you would like (just try sending 64 1GHz signals down a bus and
>expecting them (a) not to get skewed wrt each other, (b) not to couple to
>everything else in sight, and (c) not to be an EMC nightmare).
>
>Yes, improvements in bus design and driver/receiver technology has
>allowed us to produce faster buses. But there are still limits. And then
>you start using _several_ independant buses.
>
>-tony
>
At 10:41 AM 10/27/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Does anyone know of any sources of info on the net anywhere on running a
>network between various rooms in a house? I'm wanting to run a line
>capable of handling 100BaseT from the house out to the garage, and probably
>a couple other rooms in the house. It is past time to move most of the VMS
>cluster out to the Garage, and tie in the parts already out there :^)
Depends on how neat you want it :) Your (fill-in-blank,i.e wifey) probably
won't like the exposed wire-in-the-hallway look, so I'd recommend putting
them in the walls, or using paintable on-wall wiring conduit and boxes in
the room corners.
Pick a centralized location for your hub, and home-run all the wires there.
Physically running network cable ain't no different than running phone wire,
you're gonna get dirty in the attic or the crawlspace.
For in-wall work, knowledge of how your house is built, a stud finder,
battery powered drill, and an electricians fish tape will speed the
installation process.
Avoid outside walls with insulation in them.
My personal common sense preference is to not have sharp right angle bends
turning corners, and don't run the wires parallel with electrical cables.
Since wire is cheap, you might consider running multiple cables to each
outlet.
Don't direct terminate with a RJ45 plug - its not worth the hassle and
your cable always ends up short. Use jacks and outlet boxes/plates.
In the past, I've used both Panduit no-tools jacks and 110 punchdown.
The Panduit is definitely faster and easier.
Lance.
Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418
lance(a)advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems
http://www.advantinc.com
I live in a 29 story building. I have 2000 pounds of racks with CPUs in my
"lab" (a room 20' X 20'). I am going to move in another 2-3 thousand pounds
of minis as I am going through my storage and moving them up here. I am also
picking up more minis from a plant in the US. I am placing the mini racks
along the walls in the hope that there is more support there. A real serious
question I have is... Can a room in a building like this support 5000 pounds
or more? If someone here has experience with this please tell me if this is
okay.
A few years ago a rack of TE16s broke through a wooden basement floor once
(where I was storing some minis) and cracked a sewer line [ yes , what a
mess!].
john
I have already contacted the writer about disks, but can anyone help
her on the cable and other information?
- don
---------- Forwarded message ----------
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From: mdalene(a)pinkrose.ctol.net (B'ichela)
Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm,comp.terminals
Subject: vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:31:45 -0400
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Lines: 35
Message-ID: <slrn81af61.apc.mdalene(a)pinkrose.ctol.net>
Reply-To: mdalene(a)home.ctol.net
Summary: Need manual, floppy boot, and floppy cable for vt180
Keywords: vt180, floppy cable, bootdisk, manual
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User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX)
Xref: thoth.cts.com comp.os.cpm:2790 comp.terminals:1308
I found a Vt180 a few weeks ago at a "good will" in
Willimantic called "Windham Interfaith Ministry" or WAIM. as I
originally said I got it to work as a terminal.
What I need is a floppy boot disk for the vt180 and the floppy
cable (DB25 to DB37). I have the Vt180 floppy drive but no cable. I
also need to know how to configure the printer port for my serial
printers. There is no setup C screen on the setup screens. I tried all
of what I felt was reasonable including the setup A/B button, P, C in
addition to p and c as well as shifted Setup A/B and Setup.
Related to this, does anyone got a manual for the Vt180? I
would like to know how to use this with CP/M or whatever OS it uses.
I also need to refine the setup B screen configuration for
best results with my linux system.
This Vt180 has a mild screen allignment problem where a service
manual would be a help for addjusting the video screen. It seems that
the top line of the screen is Bigger than the bottom line of text.
both lines ae fully on the screen, its clearly a cosmetic concern.
If you have this info. please email me at mdalene(a)ctol.net or
post your response here. I will post my address here also for anyone
who just wants to stuff a few manuals/disks via postal
Michele Marie Dalene (B'ichela)
18 Carey Hill Alley, Apt 3A
Willimantic, Ct 06226
--
A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the
potential to be a dandy.
-- Anonymnous --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
B'ichela
-- end of forwarded message --
