I picked up an auction lot today and it contained, among other things, some
5.25" disks that are hand labelled as "1.2MB Test Media". I'm wondering if
they are calibration disks for 5.25" drives. Realizing they are probably so
RARE that to L@@K at them should cost $20 :-) Since I've got a couple I'd
like to send one to anyone who feels confident they can tell me what they
are (Tony?)
Another thing this lot had in it was the 1996 MSDN developers network
subscription CD binder. This basically has like all the "big" software
microsoft made including copies of Win95, WinNT 3.5 and WinNT 4.0 Beta.
Plus various SDKs, international versions and docs. It occurred to me that
to a developer this "trash" is going to be gold to a collector in 20 years
who is trying to demonstrate or renovate a "pre-millenium personal
computer." So it seems to be out there and it is fairly low volume (less
than 1 cubic foot) and can be had inexpensively. May I suggest we do future
collectors a favor (as those who saved OS/8 did for me) and take some of
this "junk" and store it somewhere safe for future generations...
--Chuck
Fred Cisin said...
|
|This'll probably offend many.
Maybe. I simply disagree - to an extent.
|I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM
|capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including
|Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature.
What has that got to do with learning BASIC, or graphics?
The nice thing about a Commodore, CompuColor, Mac II, etc,
is the instant feedback. I realize the WWW can provide this
(so long as you have a clear T3 path between systems 8^), but
that's not the same. With a graphical basic, you create, you
play. It's more like Legos(tm) or Tinker Toys (tm) than using
a computer application.
I agree that what you propose is a good thing for a kid to have,
but it's a completely different topic - using the computer as a
general purpose learning tool, or playing on a computer. What
we were talking about was playing *with* a computer.
|For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an
|introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are understood.
I've yet to see a BASIC that runs on top of an OS that's as
easy to get into and provides direct feedback as well as a
graphical BASIC DOS.
|Once the kid has gotten thoroughly into it, THEN maybe a birthday present
|of a set of Linux disks?
Hah. My kids started on Linux, at about 8 and 10. Yeah, I
intend to (God help me) get a Win or Mac system soon, but
only because there are too many things not yet available on
Linux.
But Linux is just fine as a newbie OS for a kid.
-Miles
Ed Preble <epreble(a)rt66.com> has a Mac 128 (upgraded to 512K) available to
any interested party. It comes with a travel case. Any interested
parties please contact him directly.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 12/27/98]
netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 13 January 1999 4:27
Subject: Re: supers
>On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote:
>
>> >Whether participating in distributed crypto challenges (like RC5)
>> >qualifies as "unsavory" is yet to be determined.
>>
>> Nah. I suppose some might think it "unsporting", but it's just
>> jealousy...:^)
>
>I don't think that's unsporting at all. With the latest and greatest
>Pentium, all you have to do is plug a stupid little mini-tower into a wall
>outlet. Victor and his gang will have to haul this huge behemoth home,
>then figure out how to get the right power to it, then figure out how to
>get the right cooling into it, then *pay* for that power and cooling to
>run it, etc.
>
>If anyone is audacious enough to take on such a challenge then they
>deserve the advantage :)
I'm on your side....
Cheers
Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)freegate.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 13 January 1999 5:30
Subject: What's a VAX 6000/300 ?
>
>My guess is that it isn't "classic" yet, but there is a nice example of one
>at Berman for _next week's_ auction. (unless they are saving it and the
>tape drive for someone)
It's from around 89-91 era, so it might be. I have a couple. One built in
89, (A Classic!) 1 in 90. It's a medium sized Vax, about the size of a very
big fridge. The 300 series cpu's were good for about 3.8 VUPS (1 VUPS ~
1MIPS). The middle digit of the 300 indicates the number of cpus in the
system. Depending on individual machine config, this could be anything from
1-4.. The internal tape drive would be a TK70, a 280mb version of a TK50.
They will also read TK50 tapes but not write to them. A typical 6000-310
would probably have 64Mb of RAM, and an ethernet adapter, plus it may or may
not have either a KDB50 SDI Disk/Tape controller and/or KLESI-B controller
for TU81+ tape drive. It could also have instead of a disk controller a CI
bus adapter to allow it to use HSC mounted disk/tape drives in a VAXCluster
configuration. Apart from the size and weight, if you have the room,
they are a good, reliable machine. VMS or Ultrix only. NetBSD not
supported (No XMI Bus support). They are 3 phase, but it's fairly easy to
convert to single phase, and they only consume around 500w. My 6000-220
(slightly slower, but a 2 cpu version) draws about 2A @240vac from a
domestic power outlet. FWIW, it can be moved by hand, though it takes
about 6 guys, weighs about 200Kg, about 30 of which is a 3 phase
autotransformer in the bottom. (First thing I get rid of!) They need a
VTxxx terminal as a console.
One of these was my first Vax, so I guess I'm sort of an enthusiast. Oh
yeah, they are just about unkillable, dropping one from a great height will
distort the cabinet somewhat, but it will probably not stop it working.
Hope this helps.
Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au
All,
Right here in Figure 5-6 of NASA's Technical Memorandum 4527,
Natural Orbital Environment Guidelines for Use in Aerospace Vehicle
Development, it shows that the Cosmic Ray environment is actually *less*
severe during a solar Maximum than during a solar Minimum. Note that the
effect only applies to rays with energy lower than appx. 10,000
MeV/nucleon, and these would probably be screened out by the atmosphere
anyway for a surface observer or classic computer. The rays packing more
than 10,000 MeV/nucleon are unaffected by solar max/min.
I surmise that when the sun is putting out lots and lots of
protons, the extra protons form an additional layer around the inner solar
system and screen out some of the cosmic rays. Of course, this means that
though there are fewer (low-energy) cosmic rays, there are more solar
protons - but their energy distribution falls off rapidly above 10,000
MeV/nucleon (per Figure 5-7c).
The bottom line is that unless your classic computer is on orbit,
you won't see any particle radiation effects from solar max. Magnetic
storms affecting power distribution grids, particlarly far north, quite
possibly.
On another topic, I salute Captain Napalm for his multiply-encoded
message. Chuck, I disagree with you with less vehemence than he - I'd
rather see text messages myself - but that was a *hilarious* rejoinder.
Well said, er, shown, er, put.
On yet another topic: I spotted about a month ago (and finally
found my notes) the following gear at a local electronics shop (A-Tex, near
the airport in San Antonio, Texas).
2 ea. HP 1615 A Logic Analyzer $31
4 ea. HP 1610 B Logic Analyzer $31
1 ea. Tek. 4105 Monitor $10
1 ea. Tek. 4404 Monitor $10
1 ea. Tek. 4025 Terminal $10
1 ea. HP 1611A logic state analyzer $?? (not marked)
Each unit was about the size of a CRT terminal. The 1611 looked
like it might be an in-circuit emulator for a Z-80 based on some other text
on it. Conditions all unknown, no probes or accessories or manuals.
Outsides were dirty and scarred, with some keycaps gone on the terminal.
A) What are Logic Analyzers? (This is an embarassing question. No need to
coddle me with a long answer, something like "please go *open* the Horowitz
and Hill on your bookshelf" could serve.)
Anybody know the frequency ranges for these particular units?
Could I have fun probing the inside of my Rainbow or Mac Plus with them?
Could I have fun probing My friends' PowerPC computers?
Are these good prices, assuming they work?
B) What do accessories for the logic analyzers (like probes) cost? Can I
still get manuals? How could I test these in-situ?
C) Is anybody interested enough in any of them to have me pick one up at my
next opportunity and ship it (your expense for shipping, could be some time
before I can get there and they might be gone already, etc. disclaimer etc.)
Thanks in advance on A) and B), and please contact me seperately on C).
- Mark
At 03:48 PM 1/9/99 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>Hey, any industrial controller collectors out there? I didn't think so.
Well, I am. That's part of my job experience -building/maintaining
industrial controls. Allison has experience in this too from what I recall
>from her past discussions here. A few others may lurk behind the trees too.
>
>I just picked up an exceedingly cool 486 box from around 1993 with a
>touch-screen LCD and ethernet. The entire machine is about the size of an
>Amiga box, but it's in a black hermetically sealed magnesium case. It's
>running QNX 4.11, and root didn't have a password (woohoo!). The Li
>battery was starting to ooze corrosive juices onto the CPU, but other than
>that, it's in primo shape.
Clean up that mess. I'm not sure so far but I think that battery juice is a
bit toxic. Be careful nevertheless.
What kind of manufacturer names are on this thing?
>
>I have some stupid questions:
Not really stupid in this case; you're just new to it. :)
>
>Was there a GUI for this version of QNX? I can't find one, nor anything
>that exploits the touch screen on this box.
There are third-party GUI's possibly available for QNX but they are costly.
Wonderware's and Intellution's interfaces are around US$2k minimum for
example. There may be others cheaper nowadays. These GUIs are typically
refered to in the industry as Man-Machine Interface or MMI.
QNX is a small realtime OS for control systems. Applications are nearly
always handwritten for each installation often using a third-party supplied
MMI, etc. No typical desktop apps available for QNX as far as I know. I
know little about QNX and my books and catalogs are still packed in boxes
after my untimely "downsizing" last year.
>
>There are three fans inside the box, but it's sealed. I always thought
>that fans worked by exchanging hot air for cooler air. What good are
>fans inside a sealed box?
The industrial environment is quite tough for electronics. Depending on the
factory/machine/process, much muck could be drawn into an electronics
enclosure by air circulation. In machine shops as an example, tool coolants
which are sprayed onto the workpiece and tool are found in the air as an
aerosol mist. The aerosol is pulled into a cabinet by the fan and collects
on everything. Over time there is a coating of condensed coolant which
collects dust and other garbage and prevents proper cooling of critical
components. I worked on a 1978 vintage 6800-based CNC controller (not 68k,
but Moto's 6800 :) which had this cooling arrangement. After about 12 years
I found a 1 mm thick coating of sticky coolant glop coating most everything
that was not even close to the airstream of the cabinet cooling fan. Poor
idea. A standard PC used in most machine shops is even asking for trouble
after a period of time.
Sealed Boxes Are Good. Cooling is achieved by thermal exchange between the
outer surface of the enclosure and the surrounding atmosphere. Fans inside
the box ensure the air is mixed to maintain contact with the inner surface
and to prevent "hot spots".
On systems which had to have a LOT of electronics, especially high power
motor drives and a CRT display, etc. a refrigerated heat exchanger system
was hung on the outside of the cabinet with its cooling surface stuck
inside the enclosure. Another lower cost, simpler way is to use the
venturi-effect which uses filtered compressed air blown through a venturi
thus cooling the air and pressurizing the control cabinet. Air was
exhausted _out_ of the controls because of the positive pressure inside.
Really old machines actually had a small air conditioner placed inside the
cabinet.
Usually when I built control systems I made sure I could get as much
surface area as possible exposed to the outside world. I used cabinets
somewhat larger than needed, air moving within, free space around exterior
and absolutely no open apperatures to let junk in. Insides were kept clean
with fewer electronic failures.
Some non-industrial computers that have no fans, especially lo-cost
mass-market types, probably had their cases made such that free flow of air
around the exterior would help cool things off without relying solely on
their vent holes and slots.
>
>Long shot: the display blanks after a few minutes, and hitting a key (it
>has a keyboard port) or touching the screen doesn't unblank it. Any
Hard to tell without knowing something about the software written for the
thing. Of course, it is not hung on the original machine at this time so
there could be some sort of interconnection which would keep the controller
running. Though the display blanks this could be related to a feature in
just the display panel, not so much the controller. I feel the CPU is
halted early on as there are no periferals to be found, so the OS hangs
thus not keeping the display 'alive'.
>guesses on how to wake it back up (BTW, there's no power switch on this
>thing -- it wants to be on *all* the time).
24/7 is the norm for most industrial systems. The power switch for this
machine was likely the big disconnect switch on either the machine or the
wall from which the AC power was run to from an overhead busbar. You never
shut it off unless there was an extended plant shutdown (long vacations) or
machine repairs.
I haven't got Netscrape back up yet because of a disaster with windoze95
(GRRRR! Don't get me started on this damned OS which cannot handle system
problems correctly. The crash was incredibly uncalled for and troublesome.
Grrrr.....) but I would suggest searching for a QNX website yourself. They
could have some bits of info for you to pick out. Otherwise, as an
"unlicensed end user", you may not get any direct help from them. They will
likely send you to a local sales rep. Depending upon how sympathetic he/she
is to you being a collector type you _might_ get a little assistance or
even a few bits of documentation.
Good luck.
-- Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
>In anticipation of such strawman arguments, I focused on Simon because it
>shares almost all of the same traits as the Altair:
> * digital
> * electronic (or electromechanical, in the case of Simon)
> * small
> * affordable to build
> * well publicized
Ok, well, one of the criteria of the Patent office for
registered 'firsts' is that it must have utility! What
makes it fun, promising, useful as opposed to an
academic intellectual curiosity?
We read about early logic devices with interest, but
the Simon seems to lack a certain critical mass to
generate widespread enthusiasm, it's basically an ALU
unit. That's like claiming a horizontal output unit,
affordable to a home user, was the 'first TV',
even tho a sophisticated hobbyist could buy it and use it
as a part of a larger project that could actually do
something useful. There's nothing really there that would cause
thousands of hobbyists to get excited over the possibilities
enough to rush out and plop down four grand and swamp the
manufacturer with so many orders they couldn't keep up.
But we want to know more - was the tape program storage,
could it make decisions and branch based on comparisons,
scalable, etc.
Chuck
cswiger(a)widomaker.com
In a message dated 1/12/99 10:39:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rhblake(a)bigfoot.com writes:
<< A friend asked me about what he says is an IBM unit that is running
Windows 3.1 and he says it says a type 4836. That number isn't clciking
with me, anyone have any ideas of what this is, or is he possibly
reading a tag from an add-on/in card? I saw a reference in IBM Finland
to a 4836 multiplatform emulation card but nothing else. >>
well, if the numbers are swapped around, could be 6384 valuepoint...
At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote:
>Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now?
Still paper, but with a few more security features.
>To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2
>coins,
The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least
$1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way
to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation
immediately as the coins are released.
Our "Susie B" dollar was a failed attempt -- becuase the bill was not
pulled. People claim silly things like it was too close in size to the
quarter (BS - try it sometime) or it was too heavy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
