test-drb January 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

189 participants
897 discussions

OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jan 15, 18:00, Max Eskin wrote: > Besides for this example, what do you feel is wrong with PINE? What do you > prefer? I would like to know since I'm an inexperienced Linux user, and > this is on-topic since PINE is over 10 years old. Mostly that it has a very broken idea of how to handle dates; it insists on parsing the date in the "From" line in order to validate it, and gets upset if it can't. When things go wrong, it has a habit of believing that two messages are in fact one (the one with the unparsable date being concatenated to the preceeding one). I also fail to see why pine, alone amongst the dozens(?) of mail programs around, has to have a control message at the top of a mailbox: a message which confuses anyone who subsequently uses another mailer; which gets moved to a different place if another mailer re-sorts the mailbox (making the control message useless to pine, which inserts another copy and actually displays the old one); and which typically gets removed by any POP3 server that accesses the mailbox for a remote user (so pine has to replace it again). It has a crazy insistence on having certain terminal capabilities in order to work... and refuses to run if they are not detected, despite the fact that it actually contains code to get round many of the things it claims to need (such as clear-to-end-of-line). There are also some bugs to do with clearing lines on terminals with a minimal set of capabilities -- notably when going backwards and forwards from the setup and addressbook menus. It's possible to get pine into a state where the display is unusable until you quit, reset the display (usually scrolling a screenful is enough, though) and restarting. It doesn't let you add headers other than a small set of pre-defined ones, which are sometimes necessary -- though beginners might not need to do that. IMNSHO, a mail program and a news program are two different things -- and pine's news capabilities are pretty poor. And, of course, it's BIG. Compare the size of a pine executable to the size of other MUAs on the same platform. It *does* have some nice features -- but for me, both as a user and a sysadmin, they're far outweighed by the shortcomings. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

25 years, 11 months

OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<This is definitely off-topic (who was that said I was single-minded?) but <for a fine example of bletcherousness, try the source to the pine mailer <(here also known as pain, or Pain In Neck Email). Find the 70K source fil that proves any tool is a hammer. I've written good code using BASIC but for the most part the early BASICs were weak in string and file handling so they were not the first choice for a lot of things. Also the early BASICs didn't have local variables and recursive routines were a PITA as a result. Add to that most were interpreted (slow) so fast IO was out of the question. I forced me to go to PASCAL (via UCSD p-SYSTEM) and that was a real eye opener as I started looking at the PASCAL code and writing assembler to look like that. C was interesting as it was efficient for machine level things but I still find it criptic. Along the way there was also algol, PL/M(PL/i) and some stabs at FOCAL. Forth(and PostScript) was amoung the stack languages and I like them for some things. There were the hybrid basic C-basic, E-basic and S-basic, they offered some fo the features of Pcascal and C in the familiar Basic form. But when I'm working with 8085 or Z80s assembler just usually happens. Allison

25 years, 11 months

thoughts on UNIX and older systems

by meo＠netads.com

All this noise about the younger OSes (Linux, FreeBSD) got me thinking. I vaccilate between amused and annoyed over the bickering between the Linux and FreeBSD contingents. That kind of thing is part of the reason Windoze owns as much of the matket as it does. I realize nobody could predict the way it would take off, but when MS first started to own the desktop, the *users* of UNIX should have started cooperating. But instead, they went along with the vendor factions, and Windoze won. Yeah, I know, it was somewhat inevitable. But I don't think it would have been quite as bad as it is. So learn from history. Feel free to argue in private, but in public, I'd push the overall UNIX-like OS, with just a recommendation. Of course, it's a good feeling to even have the option. Because 10 - 12 years ago, what were your UNIX options, if you weren't the government or a university? 1) You could buy expensive hardware that ran a UNIX variant. 2) You bought a workstation from Sun or Apollo - still not cheap. 3) If you were lucky, you got one of the few Cromemcos or Perkin-Elmer desktops, that ran UNIX. But they weren't much less expensive than the Sun, Apollo, etc workstations. (Fortune's desktops were in the workstation price range.) 4) If you were really lucky, you found a good deal on a used PDP from someone with a UNIX license who forgot to wipe the disks or tapes - but then you were illegal. 5) You bought Minix. Minix was cheap, and you got source, but it was really meant to be a teaching tool. It was well done, but extremely limited. (Nevertheless, Tanenbaum's _Operating Systems Design and Implementation_ is still an excellent book.) 6) If you were *really* lucky, you got a good deal on a working workstation. Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a Perkin-Elmer desktop running Linux? IIRC, it was pretty much a straight port of whatever was current from bell Labs at the time - or maybe an older version. -Miles

25 years, 11 months

Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around??

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Well, I remember the teacher telling me that he found the computer in his basement, and just brought it to the school to show the kids how the computers used to be when you had to program them, and you didn't just stick in a disk and turn it on. Apparently, I was the only one (well, there was one other person) that was interested in it. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? >Right... That makes sense.... > >I still wonder if a cheap clone floppy controller or drive (whichever was >needed) wouldn't have been cheaper/easier than putting a 5150 board in >there. I assume that 5150 came out of a PC, so why didn't he use the >controller or drive from that machine. A full-height drive kludged on >externally would have worked and been a lot nicer than a cassette-based >machine. > >Of course fixing the original parts probably wouldn't have been too hard >either, but then a lot of people seem to be frightened by a simple >schematic... > >-tony > >

25 years, 11 months

Todays Finds

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hi! Want to sell one of the Convertibles? It doesn't matter that there's no power supply, or even if it works or not. I collect old laptops, and the Convertible is one of the ones that I don't have. ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 2:03 PM Subject: Todays Finds >I got a call on the radio from another ham checking out garage sales, and he >told me about a Unix machine. When I went over, the machine turned out to >be an IBM RT with docs and disks! There was also a Compucorp 675 that I was >told was a dedicated word processor (no docs.) The guy wanted $15 for the >RT and was giving away the Compucorp so I gave him $20 *after* I told him I >have so many machines I don't usually buy them, and we had a nice talk. He >will see if there are any docs for it and he will be talking to others that >have been in the business since the late '70s and early '80s. Went to the >club station where I was given a Mac IIvx (OT? as I have no idea what era it >is from.) Another guy had just visited the local scrap yard and gave me 3 >IBM Convertibles w/ no power supplies. All in all, not a bad day! > >Anyone know anything about the Compucorp 675? >

25 years, 11 months

Questions on today's acquisitions

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

At 06:23 PM 1/15/99 -0500, you wrote: >> Texas Instruments Compact Computer 40. This is a lot like the TRS-80 >> PC-4 in appearance, but a bit bigger. It has BASIC in ROM and a >> connector for cartridges. Is there anything actually useful for this? >> THe keyboards too small to do any actual word processing. > >I have one of these too. TI supposedly made a thermal printer, an RS-232 >interace, and a 70KB tape drive, which would plug in to the six-pin BERG >connector on the back, next to the power jack. I use it as a programmable >scientific calculator. > The thermal printer and RS-232 interface were both produced, but not in large numbers. They're hard to find. A few pieces of cartidge software (or as TI liked to call it, "Solid State Software") were produced, AFAIK, but also not in large numbers. I've never seen any in six years of looking. The tape drive, called a "Wafertape" drive, was pretty much vapourware. There were a few prototype units sold, but it was never in full production, because TI couldn't get the bugs worked out. The box for my CC-40 has a sticker attached that says "Tape drive not available". The lack of secondary storage pretty much doomed the CC-40 as a computer; it never caught on. I think there was an article in the book "The Best of 99'er Magazine" on how to build a cable to connect a CC-40 to a TI-99/4A. I also used mine as a programmable calculator. Cheers. Mark. > >

25 years, 11 months

Oops......

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Oops... That last message wasn't supposed to be posted to the list. Sorry... -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

25 years, 11 months

Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around??

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Well, I think the only card that was in it was the video card (HD and floppy controllers had been removed). The first slot (closest to the side of the case) on the XT and PC motherboards do match up. I think for the cassette port, he just drilled a hole in the case, or cut something. I'm not too sure how he did it, because it's been 5 years since I've seen it. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? > >Ouch... That takes a lot of metal-bashing to (a) make a hole for the >cassette connector) and (b) get the 5 slots on the PC motherboard to >attempt to line up with suitable holes in the case. No thanks... It would >have been a lot less work to fix that floppy.... > >-tony > >

25 years, 11 months

thoughts on UNIX and older systems

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> 5) You bought Minix. Minix was cheap, and you got source, but <> it was really meant to be a teaching tool. It was well done, <> but extremely limited. (Nevertheless, Tanenbaum's _Operating <> Systems Design and Implementation_ is still an excellent book.) < <Minix 1.3 was very limited. V1.5 was better. 2.0 is better still and MINIX-vmd is supposed to be hot. I finally picked up the book/cd at Boarders for $53. Allison

25 years, 11 months

thoughts on UNIX and older systems

by kurtkilgor＠bigfoot.com

> I don't know where you heard that but its nonsense. > > FreeBSD = Cathedral development > Linux = Bazaar development > > Read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric Raymond to understand what I > mean. Oh, so you're saying that Linux will defeat FreeBSD solely because of its possibly superior development model. So, where does the DOS\CP/M comparison come from?

25 years, 11 months

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test-drb January 1999