Slightly related to the subject of reading CD's in 100 years:
On one of their recent space probes, NASA put a DVD (just the disk, in a
little pocket on the outside of the probe, possibly with a plaque of some
kind but probably no directions on reading).
I suspect DVD's are much more complex than CD's. I would trust a CD on a
space probe more than I would trust a DVD. The records on Voyager (both
Voyagers, I guess) -- which include styli and playing directions -- strike
me as a MUCH better idea.
-- Derek
>> I find this proposition very doubtful at best, although I don't have any
>> solid figures for EPROM data retention. You seem to be suggesting a
>> linear relationship between elapsed time and the number of bits that
remain
>> good. The actual curve is an inverse exponential (if memory serves).
>
> Wow! That would imply some sort of self-catalyzed reaction, and I'd be
> very interested in hearing how that works!
Eh? No it wouldn't. Never mind the mechanism, do a thought experiment.
Sorry Hans, I mean a Gedankenexperiment :-)
Assume you have a memory technology for which you expect half the bits to
get zapped in 20 years.
In another 20 years, half the bits will get zapped - but it won't be
selectively all the others. On average, expect half the remaining (intact)
bits to get zapped, and half the already zapped bits to get zapped. So
you're left with a quarter. And so on.
20 years is thus the half-life of an exponential decay.
Now with technologies like EPROM it's a bit more complicated, because the
zapping of bits is not a random (Poisson) process but depends on a decay of
charge within the device. But you get the idea (I hope).
Philip.
check this out:
http://www.anchordesk.com/a/adt0118nk/2997
Doesn't do much about $8500 commodore's, but
I could see it being an issue for collectors, especially
in light of the copyright article that I mentioned last night.
There are obvious issues about reselling last year's
copyrighted software, especially if you're not careful to
comply with the legal requirements (like you destroy all
of your copies if you transfer ownership). But what
about 15-20 year software? I guess legally the requirements
are the same depending on what the original licensing
contract agreement stated.
Jon
Anyone remember/use (read as: have a spare copy for...) of Wendin's OS
Toolkit. A pc release circa 88 that gave you some building blocks to roll
your own os?
Thanksly
- Mike: dogas(a)leading.net
I have a couple of internal memory expansion boards for the DEC
Pro-350. They have 128KB of memory (64Kbit chips). These work
in 350s and probably in 380s, too. You can desolder the 64Kbit
chips and put (sockets with) 256Kbit chips on them, solder in two
jumpers, and they become 512KB memory expansion boards (which work
for sure on the 380 and maybe on the 350).
(Note: This board does not plug into the expansion connectors,
but does plug directly in to the mother board.)
If you want one let me know. They're free, but if I get more
requests than I have boards, I'll give preference to anyone with
something to trade.
Dave
There was a very interesting article that appearred in the NY times last
week about publishing copyrighted materials on the web.
I thought it was apropos given the list members that have volunteered
to publish old manuals and such on their web sites. The focus of the
ariticle is not on technical specs but there are analogies even though
the issues are not identical. As we know sometimes technical materials
are not released under the guise of limiting the copyright holders liability.
Or releasing the documents somehow reduces a competitive advantage.
Or the fear that release somehow implies a warranty or guarantee of
support.
The article argues against a recent change to retroactively
extend the period of copyright. And is being brought by a
collaboration of folks many who publish previously copyrighted,
and now public domain material on the web.
It is recent news, but it affect documentation that clearly falls into
our area of interest.
I have not included it here because it is a little long. If anyone wants
to see it contact me and I'll forward you a copy in e-mail (I don't have
a site to post it on, anyone want to volunteer?).
Jon
At 07:57 PM 1/17/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Doug wrote:
>
>> > Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save
>>
>> Where did you get that idea? Paper will disolve in just about any
>> solvent, including water, and is subject to tearing. Again, if we're
>> talking about preservation in controlled environments, a CD-ROM kicks
>> paper's butt.
>
>What are you talking about? The whole aversion to using CD's was the fact
>that they have a theoretical shelf life of only 50-100 years. Like I
>said, the Dead Sea scrolls lasted more than two millenia without much
>thought going into how to preserve them. And here you are talking about
>going thru the trouble of filling a chamber with inert gasses to promote
>preservation. Unless your line of thinking is to fill the chamber with
>water just to give paper a challenge.
>
>Paper has passed the test of time. You can go into antique book shops and
>find volumes hundreds of years old that are still very readable and very
>intact.
>
>CDs, on the other hand, have only been with us a couple decades.
>
>> What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or
>> equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. A plain old EPROM
>> should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information
>> within it.
>
>100 copies on what? 100 other EPROMs? On CD? Or encoded on paper?
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Always being hassled by the man.
>
> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 01/15/99]
>
>
I still have people trying (without much success) to get video transferred
off their 1970 vintage 1/2 inch reels.
On the other hand I have several Edison cylinders from the early 1900's
that are still playable, although not exactly "hi-fi".
Cheers
Charlie Fox
Charlie Fox
Charles E. Fox
Chas E. Fox Video Productions
793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada
email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo
At 04:18 PM 1/17/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>>
>
>How about we start sending all our precious data into space via radio
>waves towards some big celestial body (like one of Jupiter's moons) so
>that in X years it will bounce back and we can then retrieve it
>(hopefully intact thanks to some keen error correction protocol). Of
>course you'd have to send it on such a trajectory that both the
>transmission and bounced data stream are not obscured by some other object
>(like that pesky moon!)
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Always being hassled by the man.
>
> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 01/15/99]
>
>
The picture that comes to mind is all this data heading out into space to
be recovered by some advanced alien intellegence at a far galaxy, who then
have a look at Windows and decide Earth is populated by a very uncivilized
race and forthwith declare war.
(Think I could sell this as a pilot for a program to replace the X-Files?)
Cheers
Charlie Fox
Charles E. Fox
Chas E. Fox Video Productions
793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada
email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo
At 07:15 PM 1/15/99 +1, you wrote:
>> > BTW: Are there some people collecting merchandise/advertizeing
>> > gimicks of the computer age ?
[...]
>Well, not exactly what I asked (but glad about every saved flyer).
>My question was more about all the other stuff - T-Shirts, umbrellas,
>tie needls, watches, keyholder, cups, .....
Well... There are advertising collectibles, and I'm sure they go after
computer stuff too (the ones that go for newer stuff.)
My brother (the ElderPutz) collects such things (one of his hobbies is
going to conventions/trade shows to get all the freebies) and after I got
into the business decided he wanted to be too (not being good at anything
else either) so he fancies himself a techie and thus has a lot of high-tech
ad stuff. He's now a tech writer and has finally been able to hold down a
job for more than 18months. Anyway, if you want to, you can contact the
jerk at <psinasohn(a)siebel.com>.
(If it sounds like I don't like him, a big part of the reason is that he's
decided that Oakland is too far away from San Francisco for him to visit
his dad. For referenec, The VCF in Santa Clara is three times as far away
>from SF. Can't even be bothered to call. (And those that were at VCF got
a chance to meet my dad -- not the most spry fellow, but a nice guy.))
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: Disasters and Recovery
>On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Doug wrote:
>
>> > Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save
>>
>> Where did you get that idea? Paper will disolve in just about any
>> solvent, including water, and is subject to tearing. Again, if we're
>> talking about preservation in controlled environments, a CD-ROM kicks
>> paper's butt.
>
>What are you talking about? The whole aversion to using CD's was the fact
>that they have a theoretical shelf life of only 50-100 years. Like I
>said, the Dead Sea scrolls lasted more than two millenia without much
>thought going into how to preserve them. And here you are talking about
>going thru the trouble of filling a chamber with inert gasses to promote
>preservation. Unless your line of thinking is to fill the chamber with
>water just to give paper a challenge.
>
But - The dead sea scrolls were on parchment, not paper, weren't they?
>Paper has passed the test of time. You can go into antique book shops and
>find volumes hundreds of years old that are still very readable and very
>intact.
>
>CDs, on the other hand, have only been with us a couple decades.
>
>> What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or
>> equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. A plain old EPROM
>> should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information
>> within it.
>
>100 copies on what? 100 other EPROMs? On CD? Or encoded on paper?
>
Or was that 100 copies of the same information in the single EPROM?
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
