< IIRC the Pro 325 uses an F11 as well, although I've not seen one.
The pro325 and 350 are the same machine save for the 325 is floppy only
and the 350 had floppy and hard disk.
< I am not suprised. Although there's a PDP11 CPU in there, the I/O system
< and interrupt structure is nothing like any other PDP11...
the primary thing was the memory mapped video. the PDT-11 also had
strange IO.
Allison
< > this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be
< > nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file.
< > The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies...
Apple used GCR coding for their drives and there are no commonly
available chips that do. In fact the apple does not use the traditional
floppy disk controller chips at all. The FDC logic on the Apple is
rather simple and the CPU provides the brains as a software FDC.
It was part of the idea of using software to replace hardware to make
the machine simpler and less expensive.
< PCs use a disk controller chip based on an NEC 765 design that can not
< read ANYTHING other than MFM (some can also do FM), with IBM 3740 style
Excuse me! That is patently incorrect! If you qualified that as *most
PC controllers cannot read some formats* that would be true.
The 765 and all of the chips based on the 765 core can read FM encoded
disks. It's not always possible with PC based designs as some are
hardware crippled (sloppy data sep circuits) and most of the PC bios code
is marginally brain dead.
However the 9266, 37c65 and 92c665 have been seen doing FM.
In the mean time my S100 card design and the compupro DISK1A both happly
read 8" SSSD (FM) disks and even single density 5.25 media.
< The Western Digital disk controller chips (179X, before they changed ove
< NEC style) could do a reasonably real track read of anything MFM
< regardless of sector header structure.
Try the 765 read diagnostic command. Hex 02 (fm) or 42 for MFM.
<They were used in TRS-80s and a LOT of machines OTHER THAN PC.
The TRS80 used the 1771 that was FM only.
the WD 177x or WD179x still cannot read an apple disk.
Allison
Opening mostly says it all...
I'm looking for an ASR 35 or 37 teletype. Offering an ASR-33 as all/part
trade.
So... if you have one that is just too darn big, and want something
smaller, (and are hopefully in the Oregon/Washington area or have a
shipper with a sense of humour) lets talk!
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
Just picked up a couple of terminals. A Teletype 3320 and (from
memory here) DECWriter III. Any information on the teletype would
be greatly appreciated (like how to interface to it, it has some small
centronics type connector on the end of the cable).
As for the DEC, I'll give it to anyone who wants to come pick it up
in the Central Texas area (Austin specifically). It's untested and the
best I'd be able to do anyway is to see if it powers up. I'll give it
about a week before I trash it unless someone can convince me
otherwise.
George
In a message dated 98-10-02 13:36:17 EDT, you write:
<< Answering an ad for a "Xerox 16/8 Computer," I found out
that the computer was actually an 820 II that was in possession of a Xerox
employee
prior to the seller. He (the seller) told me that the 820 was upgraded to
be "just like"
a 16/8, and judging by the haphazard looking innards (things jammmed into
slots, tape
holding things together, etc.), I think I believe him. I also got 3 or 4
binders for a 16/8
computer but all the pictures inside show a standard looking PC style
desktop case.
Which is the "real thang?" >>
The answer is both. Most 16/8s that I have seen are 820 IIs that have been
upgraded to 16/8s. This explains the tape and wires. At one time I had gotten
the upgrade kit myself. I never installed it because I found a factory 16/8.
It looked just like my 820 II with a different bezel.
When the IBM PC was introduced the market for these dropped considerably.
Xerox was selling into the business market at about a $2000 price point. It
was adapt or die. Xerox redesigned the case to look like the new PCs. Printed
new manuals. They died anyway The winds of change were blowing.
If you find one of the PC versions of the 16/8 save it. There are very few of
them. Most of Xerox's production run was remaindered. I saw them surplus for a
couple of years. I bet most of them were scrapped. I have never seen one with
the PC style case. I have manuals with pictures too.
You may be right on the drive interfaces although all the drive boxes use the
same 50 pin plug. I would have to do some research.
Paxton
This is too high for me, especially since I just got one for free yesterday
but it sounds like a nice package (with the separate monitor, if it's an
Osborne monitor.) Contact the seller, not me; I know nothing other than
what you see below.
-----------------------------------------
>From: "Don Gatterman" <dgent(a)gte.net>
>Subject: Re: Your Internet web page re the Osborne 01 / I still have
it,... Haven't gotten back to selling it.....
>
>It is the Blue-Gray model and I am asking $225.00 , or best offer, plus
>shipping if necessary. This would include the computer and printer, and
>separate monitor, all cords, software, and periodicals. Thanks for your
>note. Please feel free to call me at ( 360 ) 352-1883 if you hear of
>anyone who might be interested.
>
> Thanx Don
>
>
>PS, I am the sole original owner, and it is in excellent condition...
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>>originally purchased through Sears and has a built-in Osborne add-on
>modem,
>>>Star Micronix printer w/ cable, separate monitor, Kleertex keyboard
>>>template for Osborne with Wordstar commands etc. Any interested party may
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>The Professional 350 uses a PDP11 CPU (F11 or J11 depending on the
>machine). It runs P/OS (== cut-down RSX with a menu shell on top) or
>Venix. Oh, I think RT11 as well.
The PRO-350 used the F11 (Fonz) chip (same as in an 11/23). The
PRO-380 used the J11 (Jaws) chip (same as an 11/73).
Oh yeah - and RT-11 sure does run on them! We got it working on
the PRO back in 1980... You should have seen some of the things
we had to do to get it running, though...
Some PRO strangeness - it has a 64hz clock... so, for RT-11 to
emulate a 60hz clock, it counts 15 clock ticks and throws one
away... :-)
The PRO-380 doesn't have cache, but if you *turn off* the non-existent
cache (using the cache control register), the machine slows down to
11/23 speed!
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
< We appear to differ only on the definition of "PC".
Apparently we do. To me A PC is any machine fromthe IBM PC on including
clones.
< The PC disk controller, AS IMPLEMENTED BY IBM, did NOT provide access to
< all of the capabilities of the 765. In particular, FM can NOT be done
< with that board unless you make a few modifications, or replace it with
< any of the better designed after-market boards.
Tell me. I worked for NEC Microcomputers then and we sold IBM the 765.
We were in shock at what they had done as the standard design we used
that the time was far more capable.
< With the 37C65 and the like, the switch between MFM and FM can be done
< entirely in software, not requiring the extra hardware gate needed for
The only dirfference from 765 to 37c65 is that the 37c65 has ALL the logic
we'd wished IBM to use back then. My S100 contrtoller runs all the
possible fm/mfm formats and was a design that predates the IBM kluge.
< > In the mean time my S100 card design and the compupro DISK1A both happ
< > read 8" SSSD (FM) disks and even single density 5.25 media.
<
< An excellent choice for the task.
Both run the basic 765A
< The TRS-80 model I did indeed use the 1771 (FM). Data separation was po
< done, and there were after market boards to patch it.
I know I worked for them too. They were always looking at the cheapest
worst solution. Remember these are the same guys that brought
RAS*/CAS*/MUX across from the main console with bad enough timing that
the EI didn't work most of the time if it had ram.
< and so did the TRS-80 model 3 and 4. But Radio Shack made some WEIRD
< design decisions regarding use of Data Address Marks.
Deliberate attempt on their part to keep trsdos on their systems only
and part lack of knowledge.
< Absolutely correct. But they CAN read some MFM formats that do NOT have
< IBM style sector headers, unlike the 765 series.
Considering it was never designed for anything else it sorta begs the
question... Why blame the cow for soggy cereal?
The WD 17xx series FDCs were good chips but several things from that era
would scare off people using them... One, they did at times ship known bad
chips. Two, some of the support parts like the 1691 were late or didn't
work. Three, there werent intel so intel one they had the license and die
to sell the 765 as the 8272 would "kit" the FDC with the 8085 or 8088
to lock out WD and other competitors.
The other part was people often abused the 1771 such that even the 1791
couldn't read the disks!
< There were several add-on boards for PCs for dealing with Apple ][ disks
< including the Apple Turnover and Matchpoint. They installed between the
Or the trackstar128 which could not only read and write apple disks it
could also run apple software.
Allison
At 10:11 PM 10/1/98 EDT, Innfogra(a)aol.com wrote:
>The Xerox 16/8 is a desktop CPM Computer of the mid 1980s vintage. It has both
>8 and 16 bit processors in the cabinet. I believe the original computer was
>based on the UK Big Board design. The 16 bit processor is on a propriatory add
>on card. It runs CPM-80 & CPM-86. If I remember right it will run an early
>version of MS-DOS.
Yep, mine came with MS-DOS 2.1
>It has been years since I have run mine. My 2nd computer was a Xerox 820, an
>earlier model. I was delighted when I got a 16/8.
>
> It uses external drives which you may not have gotten. The disks availiable
>were dual 8" floppys, dual 5" floppys or a 8" Floppy and 8" HD. You could use
>only one set at a time. Brian of Emerald Microware (business no longer in
>existance) in Beaverton, Oregon made a data sharer that would alow you to hook
>up both 5 & 8" drives at the same time. He supported this family of computers
>for many years. It was a nice machine.
OK, I'm cinfused. Answering an ad for a "Xerox 16/8 Computer," I found out
that the computer was actually an 820 II that was in possession of a Xerox
employee
prior to the seller. He (the seller) told me that the 820 was upgraded to
be "just like"
a 16/8, and judging by the haphazard looking innards (things jammmed into
slots, tape
holding things together, etc.), I think I believe him. I also got 3 or 4
binders for a 16/8
computer but all the pictures inside show a standard looking PC style
desktop case.
Which is the "real thang?"
>There are two styles of keyboards, the original which is bulky and a low
>profile which uses a different ROM. The basic computer consists of three
>pieces, the Monitor/CPU, a keyboard and a drive cabinet.
>
>I have docs, drives, cpus and parts if you want to communicate with me
>directly.
Another note. The seller said that there were a number of different drive
interfaces available for this model and that if you plugged the wrong one
in it wouldn't be pretty. (I think it depended on which of the above combos
you got: fd/hd, fd/fd, etc.) Mine is a SASI interface, i think (8"FD/8"HD)
Les
For those in the N.W. Oregon area (or those that need an excuse to be
there!)
---
The 'n'th Annual Fall edition of the CP/M-UG Computer and Electronics Swap
Meet will occur on Saturday October 10th.
(n'th annual 'cause we lost track many years ago!)
It will be held in the lower level of the Senior Citizens Center on Omera,
just south of the Tigard City Hall on Hall Blvd.
As always, it's Free, Easy, and Non-Fattening! (except perhaps to your
wallet or garage, depening on your approach!) Bring your Junk, your
Treasures, and your Wallet! The only rule is... Leave Nothing Behind!
(NO garbage service!)
Address: 8815 S.W. Omera (Just south of Fanno Creek on Hall Blvd.)
Tigard, OR.
Hours: 0800 to 1500 or whenever the good stuff runs out!
(8am to 3pm for the layfolk)
Fees: No charge! (we pass the hat for contributions)
NOTE: Tailgating is encouraged! Some of the best deals are made in the
parking lot! (Warning: Oregon is entering the rainy season!)
A limited number of tables are available on site. Plenty of
space to bring your own. "Those who are late do not get fruit
cup!"
See you there!
---
For details, or directions (fairly easy to get to from I-5 or Oregon-8)
just drop me a note.
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
