test-drb April 1997

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

60 participants
150 discussions

by BigLouS＠aol.com

I'll take the 1000. I have a 68000 chip sitting around from my old Amiga and the drives are pretty easy to find. If it's still available let me know what the shipping is. Regards, Lou

27 years

Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers )

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Turns out I was too quick to place the blame on an errant journalist. The article, excerpted below (not for profit, and do not forward, etc) actually does say "apple 1" -- it was some bozo on Usenet that made the mistake. The part about the Computer Bowl is correct though. Kai 02490420 60320 THE CUTTING EDGE A Byte of History Techies Taking a Scroll Down Memory Lane Los Angeles Times (LT) - MONDAY August 12, 1996 By: GREG MILLER; TIMES STAFF WRITER Edition: Home Edition Section: Business Page: 1 Pt. D Story Type: Main Story; Infobox Word Count: 1,797 TEXT: The nerds are getting nostalgic. Barely 20 years into the personal computer revolution, techies across the country are growing increasingly sentimental about the machines and programs that changed their lives and ushered in the Information Age. For them, booting up a vintage Commodore PET computer can conjure misty-eyed memories. Toggling the switches of an Altair 8800 is better than gripping the gearshift of a first car. And a shrink-wrapped copy of VisiCalc software beats a mint-condition Mickey Mantle baseball card any day. This is the memorabilia of the PC generation, and after spending much of the last decade or two collecting dust in suburban garages from Silicon Valley to Boston's Route 128, it's starting to make a comeback. Virtual museums of vintage hardware and software are sprouting up all over the Internet's World Wide Web, as are online classified ads placed by collectors desperate to reacquire the technological wonders of their youth. Some rare PCs are fetching much higher prices now than they did when they were brand-new, and even revered institutions such as the Smithsonian are bolstering their computer collections. "The amount of activity that I see is amazing," said Kip Crosby, president of the Computer History Assn. of California in Palo Alto. "People are always asking me: 'Can you find me an Altair? Can you find this or that?' I get 10 to 20 phone calls and e-mails a month, twice as many as a year ago." Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very well when they were new, are even more troublesome to maintain now--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment. But like certain cars or baseball cards, high-tech relics are somehow enhanced by the passage of time. Collectors see them as the symbols of a more colorful computer age populated by legendary personalities who became billionaires--or, in some cases, went bust. "That's why I'm interested in computer history," said Co Ho, 30, an Internet administrator at Fullerton College. "Many people could have made it big, but they fell asleep and ended up having somebody else eating their cake." Ho collects vintage software, especially programs that changed the computing landscape but somehow faltered. One of his favorite pieces is CP/M, an early operating system created by Digital Research. CP/M might have become the operating system had Digital Research's founder, the late Gary Kildall, been more hospitable when IBM came calling to license his software. In a legendary blunder, Kildall and his wife refused to sign IBM's confidentiality agreement, and IBM executives took their business to a then-tiny company known as Microsoft. "CP/M missed the boat because of casual behavior," Ho said. "It's really a sad story." Ho is one of the few people who collect software. More collect hardware, and one of the most sought-after machines is the Altair 8800, introduced by MITS Inc. of Albuquerque in 1975. It didn't have a keyboard or a monitor, only rows of switches on the front of the box. The Altair kit sold for $395 when it was new, but one in good condition today can fetch as much as $1,500 because of the exalted position it holds in computer history. Widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer, it launched a craze when it appeared on the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics. Bill Gates even dropped out of Harvard to develop an early version of the Basic programming language for the Altair. The Altair "established Bill Gates in business," said Gwen Bell, founder of the Computer Museum, a Boston mecca for computer lovers. "One of our prize treasures is the original Basic tape that Bill Gates developed on the Altair." Collectors tend to pass over some of the most popular early machines, such as the original IBM PC and the 1984 Apple Macintosh, because there are just too many of them. Scarcity counts, which helps explain why the most valuable collectible is the Apple I. Introduced by Steven Jobs and Stephen Wozniak in 1976, the Apple I was nothing more than a circuit board. It had no keyboard, no monitor, not even a case. It sold for $666, and only a few hundred were produced. A well-preserved Apple I can fetch as much as $12,000 today, sometimes more. An Apple I signed by Jobs and Wozniak sold for $22,000 at a fund-raiser auction for the Computer Museum several months ago, Bell said. That kind of appreciation has attracted the attention of even non-techie collectors. "I got a call from an investment advisor for a Wall Street banker," Bell said. "He asked: 'Should I get him into collecting old computers? Will they increase in value more than art?' I said, 'I don't know--I'm not a dealer.' " In fact, there aren't any prominent dealers of antique computers, at least not yet. But a few collectors are hoping to change that, including David Greelish, founder of the Historical Computer Society in Jacksonville, Fla. Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for bargains on the Internet. He uses search engines such as Yahoo to root out online classified ads for Altairs and other vintage machines, and he keeps an eye on alt.folklore.computers, a newsgroup where history buffs hang out. "Ultimately, I would like to see (the Historical Computer Society) grow and publish magazines and books," he said. "I'd like to start displaying our collection and even restoring computers for sale." Greelish and others said would-be collectors should look for machines that look clean, have all the original equipment and documentation and still run. A number of guidebooks are available, including Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm in Asheville, N.C., and "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. Experts urge caution, however. There's no guarantee that old computers will grow in value, and they are very difficult to maintain. "If you've never opened up your computer and looked inside, this is probably not the collectible for you," Bell said. Instead, experts say, this is a hobby better left to people who were enthralled by the recent PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds," people who still have a soft spot for monochrome terminals, "Chiclet" keyboards and the odd shapes of the early machines. But even among techies, there are plenty of people who scoff at this new fad, including Kim Nelson, service manager at ACP Superstore in Santa Ana. Founded 20 years ago, ACP is one of the oldest computer stores in Southern California, holds swap meets that attract legions of collectors, and might be one of the region's best unofficial museums. The store's top shelves are crammed with artifacts of computer history, although Nelson calls it junk. "Isn't it amazing that we have computer folklore now," he said, walking with a reporter along rows of vintage Commodores, Imsais and Tandys. "That's kind of sad when you think about it. Seems to me there are things that are a lot more important." But as he uttered those words, service technician John Krill walked by and surveyed the line of creaky machines. Almost against his will, Nelson was sucked into an episode of technology reverie. "Look at that Kaypro," Krill said. "That company grew so fast they were warehousing their inventory in tents." "Weren't they the ones that had the fire too?" asked Nelson, perking up just a bit and eager to demonstrate his techno-trivia prowess. The conversation drifted from machine to machine. "When I was in college, I would just leave my Osborne up in the library," Krill said with a laugh, recalling the immobility of the first portable computer. "The damned thing weighed 27 pounds. I didn't want to lug it around." Fifteen minutes passed before the two realized that their walk down memory lane might have strained the attention span of their guest. "That's enough, John," Nelson finally said with an embarrassed grin. "You're boring him." Greg Miller can be reached via e-mail at greg.miller atimes.com (BEGIN TEXT OF INFOBOX / INFOGRAPHIC) Computer Collectibles Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic techies: Model: Apple I Year introduced: 1976 Original price: $666 Current value: $10,000-$12,000 * Model: Mark-8 Year introduced: 1974 Original price: $250 Current value: $3,500-$4,000 * Model: Scelbi 8H Year introduced: 1973 Original price: $440 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Altair 8800 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $395 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Imsai 8080 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $440 Current value: $400-$600 * Model: Apple II Year introduced: 1977 Original price: $1,195 Current value: $200-$400 * Model: Osborne I Year introduced: 1981 Original price: $1,795 Current value: $200-$300 Descriptions: Apple I: With no monitor, no keyboard and no case, the Apple I was little more than a circuit board. Only a few hundred were produced. Mark-8: A kit computer that was the subject of the first magazine article describing how to build a computer. The article appeared in Radio Electronics Magazine in 1974. Scelbi: Predated the Altair and was the first computer based on a microprocessor advertised for sale. Only a small number was made. Altair 8800: Programmed by switches, the Altair 8800 had no keyboard, no monitor and just 256 bytes of memory. But it is widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer. The Altair, based on an Intel processor, started a craze when it appeared on the cover of Popular Electronics magazine in January 1975. Imsai 8080: Modeled on the Altair, the Imsai had several technological advances and a more polished look. Had no keyboard or monitor but was briefly the fastest-selling personal computer. Apple II: This is the machine that launched the company--and the personal computer industry. Apple II computers came with a keyboard, monitor and two disk drives. Most important, they ran VisiCalc, the original spreadsheet program that was the personal computer's "killer application." Osborne I: Considered the first portable computer, even though it weighed about 30 pounds and was the size of a suitcase. It had a 5-inch screen, two floppy disk drives and 64K of RAM. Sources: Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm, Asheville, N.C.; David Greelish, president, Historical Computer Society, Jacksonville, Fla.; "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. AL SCHABEN / Los Angeles Times > ---------- > From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, April 21, 1997 4:53 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and > Computers) > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when > > Osborne-1s were > > | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha > > ha. Nice joke. > > > > This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking > to > > collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for > over > > $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not > an > > Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). > > Ok, that would make sense. It seems that this has become some sort > of > urban legend, though -- I remember posts in afc like "I have an > Osborne-1. > Make me an offer about $5000." :-) > > > --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. > ------------------------------- > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' > alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk > The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, > axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk >

27 years

Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers )

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

| I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the | apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less | purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for | you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ | with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - | in 1988! Well... here are my thoughts: > > Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic > > techies: > > > > Model: Apple I > > Current value: $10,000-$12,000 > Unverified, the only high-dollar example I know of is the Computer Bowl auction unit. I know someone who actually has two Apple I's, and since I actually have more than one Altair, I'm trying to talk him into our becoming about the only two people with one of each. Wish me luck! > > Model: Mark-8 > > Current value: $3,500-$4,000 > Highly dubious, since I have never seen, and probably will never see, one of these for sale. Heck, it wasn't even a genuine production machine, it was mostly just instructions on how to build one from scratch. Who knows what it would even look like? Every one was different. Since most if not all of the period's TTL stuff is still available, you could build something today and call it a Mark 8. Most people looking for an Altair would say "A Mark what?" > > Model: Scelbi 8H > > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > Why this should be lower priced than the Mark-8 considering that it came out earlier ('73 vs. '74, according to Byte), is beyond me. The same comment as for the Mark-8 applies. The Mark-8 and Scelbi are sort of like the guy who almost got credit for inventing the telephone. It's doubtful that history will ever be rewritten sufficiently for there to be a significant interest in these machines. Not that _I_ wouldn't buy one, mind you... not for these dollars of course, but for a goodly sum. > > > Model: Altair 8800 > > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > This might actually be a bit low, considering the amount of 'Altair Fever' around today. You should see the number of 'Altair Wanted' posts on various sections of Usenet. Geez! Is it worth it? I'd say, sure it is! My dad's '57 fuelie 'Vette is just as primitive by today's standards, but just like the Altair, it looks fantastic and it's a piece of history. It darn well deserves its more-than-a-new-one price tag. Of course, my dad restored it himself, since he always wanted one when he was a kid... sure sounds like his son's relationship with antique computers! > > > Model: Imsai 8080 > > Current value: $400-$600 > This is accurate, perhaps a bit low as well. They're pretty rare (one less in circulation as of this weekend - thanks Tim!) > > > Model: Apple II > > Current value: $200-$400 > Well, we all know this is a joke. The highest price I've seen for a plain // is about $60. I'd probably pay $200+ for a pristine one in the original box with manuals, etc. but I don't think that's what they mean. Of course, I haven't been able to find a nice one myself, so... > > Model: Osborne I > > Current value: $200-$300 > Tough call. It's reasonably, but certainly not vanishingly, rare (I've owned three at various times) and I'm sure there are folks in the world that would pay this, but I generally see them going for around $100, and more like $15 at swap meets or thrift stores. Kai

27 years

by dastar＠crl.com

I have an Atari 2600 carthridge question: I bought a couple at a swap meet that don't "boot" up. When I turn the unit on the screen either is black or has random vertical color bars on the screen. They are both Activision games. Any suggestions? I tried opening them but can't without ruining the label. I guess a working cart is worth more than a ruined label, but I'm hoping there's a better way if there is some way to fix them. Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. The point to such a silly game is that it will promote the preservation of old computers. It will get us out there finding these lost souls and keeping them safe for future generations. And believe me, there's nothing more gratifying then a good weekend out hunting for good old computers! (Well, there are at least a few things more gratifying :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

27 years

Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

| Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when Osborne-1s were | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha ha. Nice joke. This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking to collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for over $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not an Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). An Apple I sold at the Computer Bowl charity auction (filled with billionaires) for that price, but even that doesn't mean that an Apple I is _worth_ $10K, just that someone made a nice charity donation in connection with one. Kai

27 years

looking for

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital Equipment machines as well. Anyone got an extra box lying around in their collection that they'd love to sell me? -- Jim Strickland jim(a)calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_

27 years

looking for

by marcw＠lightside.com

> I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 > 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs > with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast > is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital > Equipment machines as well. Anyone got an extra box lying around in > their collection that they'd love to sell me? > -- > Jim Strickland > jim(a)calico.litterbox.com A few catalogues sell external SCSI cases in varying sizes. Not the cheapest things it seems. Sometimes more than PC tower cases. Anyhind Jameco (800-831-4242) and JDR Microdevices (800-538-5000) sell them. They all include power supplies. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw(a)lightside.com (finger at: marcw(a)mail.lightside.com) marc.williams(a)mb.fidonet.org

27 years

Regular Posting: FAQ

by bill＠booster.bothell.washington.edu

============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2 Last Update: 4/16/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ has jumped 2 updates because I've been lazy about posting it. Part 5.4 is new Sections 6-9 are new. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- About ClassicCmp ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collecting ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardware and Media ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 7. Media -------- 7.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 7.4 What disk sizes are there? 7.5 How do I take care of old media? 8. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 8.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 8.3 How about capacitors? 8.4 Anything else? 8.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 9.2 What's the best way to back up my software? ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection (just hoarding), restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? Any computer that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson. I run this thing when I'm not busy being a network admin at the University of Washington, SCUBA diving, playing drums in punk rock bands, or drinking heavily. Oh yeah, I'm a 22 year old, unmarried, childless, white, male living in the state of Washington in the US. People ask you the strangest things when you run a listproc... 1.5 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. Damn straight. That's what the internet's all about. OK, guess I have to update this too - I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages (if you're easily embarrassed). 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. See section 5 for info on how to find your- self a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 230, fluxing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Don't bother asking me. If you really want to know go ahead and post to the list. I really don't know what having a number will do for you... 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your wife of the rhino and cuter, furrier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, etc. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available >from any decent Volkswagen shop. Hopefully this will prevent frying the rest of the machine with a flaky power supply. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them though. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from comp- onents but I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. To my knowledge it was never used with 3.5 inch disks. 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density High Density High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. 7.4 What disk sizes are there? Physically? There are 8 inch, 5.25 inch, and 3.5 inch as "standard" disks. There are also some unique and/or short-lived sizes such as 3 inch disks used by Amstrad and 2 inch disks which were pioneered for use in laptops and then quickly forgotten. 7.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 8.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 8.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 8.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows).

27 years

Apple Lisa Power Supply...

by kevan＠motiv.co.uk

Hi, While I have the attention of Lisa owners with the other thread I thought I may make this request... I have owned a Lisa 2 for a number of years now, but unfortunately it has a mostly broken power supply unit. Over this time I seem to have got close to finding spares or schematics more times than I care to remember, only to be let down at the last minute. (Sorry, sob story over now.) It is a complex beast and I don't have the technical know how to fix the problem, but I do have friends, who are skilled electronic engineers, who say they can do it with the schematics. Has anybody got the schematics for a Lisa 2 power supply? Failing this has anybody got a working spare they are willing to part with? Or do you know of a cheap source of them? Many thanks... -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: <URL:http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/>

27 years

Atari 2600

by alexios＠vennea.demon.co.uk

I remembered a message here about pricing and video games yesterday. Someone had an Atari 2600 (the new, revamped, black type) at the car boot sale in Edinburgh yesterday. He explained to me that this was a "games computer" with around 8 carts (<sarcasm>lemmesee, Pacman, Ms. Pacman, Pole Position, etc. -- ooh, rare</sarcasm>). The price: 20.00 UKP (around $30?). Surely, these people are joking. I didn't even want to haggle for a new VCS. Now, if it was the *OLD* type, I might have been interested (I don't normally collect this stuff, but the old VCS has sentimental value -- I played my first game of Space Invaders on one). Unfortunately, at another flea market, another time and another country (and anyway, the wench is dead), an original VCS was going for around $100, with extremely common carts selling for as much as $25. Amazing. Almost as expensive as the thing when it first came out. :-) My theory for this is that game machines haven't changed all that much in the last 20 years: still a box, still take carts (or CD-ROMs nowadays), still have joysticks. What the heck, it must be worth something, right? Whereas computers have changed so dramatically that your average car boot sale joe will sell an old `computer keyboard' (probably a ZX-80) for peanuts since it doesn't appear to have a monitor or a CD-ROM or Winblows installed. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk

27 years

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test-drb April 1997