> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:38:21 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Doug Spence <ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca>
> There used to be a copy of Osborne's "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide"
> around here someplace, but I suspect my brother took it with him when he
> moved out, even though he's a C64 man. (Darn!) I really need to find a
> good shop with old computer books in it. All of the second-hand
> bookstores I've been to specifically state that they don't keep computer
> books or magazines older than 5 years (or so) old. :/
The Osborne is a good reference, but there are more indepth books, such
as Programming the PET/CBM and PET Revealed. Pity about the stores, I
too have noticed that, and if the owners of said store don't have any
clue about computers they usually opt not to take any computer books
(they probably got burned with a bunch of punch-card computer text books
years back...)
> Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back
> when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up.
No this was not an expansion job, this was a direct piggy back of
chips, no bending out pins here, like I said it was a pretty stupid
thing, that never stopped him.
> BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a
> VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :)
Heck I have been and still am sysop a Commodore 64 BBS for ten years
now. If you want some BASIC BBS programs to start with (written for 64,
but I'm sure can be easily modified for VIC) I know I have some archived
here...somewhere.
> (music program)in BASIC, based on the Cursor #4 tape's cover program. I found copies of these
> things in my brother's cassette collection (I was still in elementary
> school at the time the PETs were in use).
Hey brother, could you spare a copy for a friend in need? <wink wink,
nudge, nugde>
I'll even supply you with a tape-to-disk program for the 64 that will
make the transfer a snap!
> Too bad I couldn't find the cassette with the
> professional music software on it (I forget what it's called) that lets
> you compose the music on the staff on the screen, and that scrolls the
> music as it plays. It's really impressive for an 8K machine!
I remember an ad about one that AB computers was selling I can't
remember it's name either. (maestro maybe?)
> ...the old 8K here with the miniature multicoloured
> keyboard (love that thing!)
Sure is nice, I got mine (original PET) from a friend including ALOT of
the original documentation, an extra tape drive (Commodore was
butchering SANYO tape recorders to begin with), some newsletters (that
later turned into popular magazines) and tapes, a splendid addition! I
worry about it though, I'm not sure whether it has ROMs or EPROMS,
whatever they are they are the original (you know those thin white DIP
packages.)
>It was, after all, an abused school machine, and the lid wasn't screwed down. (The
> sockets in that particular machine are so bad there's no point in screwing
> the lid down! Having to re-seat chips is a regular occurrence.)
Most of mine are school machines, they sure take a lickin though, the
ROM seating problem is common. I have read of people sugessting to
replace them with quality drilled sockets. (maybe one of these
years...)
> So I guess Commodore stopped drilling holes in motherboards to prevent
> upgrade? :)
Nope, Finally got one with a hole drilled (never heard about it before
that) I think it was later in the line that they started. I guess they
wanted to make darn sure that if someone bought a 4016 at a discount
that was only what they were gonna get.
> Assuming all these chips are the same, this was a 16K RAM board. This'd
> be nice to get running.
I would have thought it to be more. :/
> (How would one test a capacitor to see if it's OK?)
No idea from me, anyone?
(on possibility of it being a Visible Memory Board)
> Oooh... I wish. :) I didn't think you could even get such a thing for a
> 2001, I thought graphics boards were the domain of the 8032 and like
> systems. No idea why I'd think there'd be such limitations on one PET and
> not on another, though. :)
Actually one of my PETs has one (I used it in high school), the graphics
could overlay the PET character screen too! Unfortunately the PET had a
mother board replacement and the jumpers are now wrong, and I'm without
docs, so it is not fully functional. Pitty I got a great Space War done
like Star Trek game for it. From an ad I still do have, the MTU Visible
Mmory Board was deveoped for the KIM-1 and then adapted for the PET, so
it's been around for a while. Same for the sound board, it mentions Hal
Chamberlin developing it for the KIM originally too (want a copy of the
ad for collection sake?)
> BTW, there's also another piece of bizarre PET expansion around the house
> somewhere... Another 16K of expansion, actually. That's what those large
> music files were created with. But the thing is HUGE and it consists of
> exposed circuit boards, so I didn't particularly want to use it in its
> current state.
[clip]
>
> This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the
> PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an
> S100 bus if I saw one? :)
You never know, there was alot of neat things out for the PET, color
boards, Hi-Res, Disk Drive Multiplexers, UPS systems, Networking units,
etc.
----------
> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:04:08 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "Starling" <starling(a)umr.edu>
> I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and
> magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have
> a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of
> PC popularity (early 80s).
I remember donating a Peoples Computer Company Games Book to them after
a few years they discarded it (probably sold it at a book sale), gosh, I
wish I had gotten it back. :/ Not all libraries keep their older
computer books. *sigh*
> However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't
> help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks
> by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great
> place to start.
University microfilm - http://www.umi.com/ has several older (70s-80s,
yeah, and 90s too...) computer magazines in film still available, prices
are too steep for me presently but I may someday purchase some sets.
---------
> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:43:29 -0400
> From: Glenn Roberts <groberts(a)mitre.org>
> so stop in at your local library's book
> sale booth and you might pick up a classic or two.
>
Unfortunately for the local library the good books are almost all gone.
:(
Thrift store bookshelves and flea markets have been really good to me
lately though.
------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:38:35 +0500
> From: hellige <jeffh(a)eleventh.com>
> Subject: Re: PETS & the Silly Game
> There are 4 BBS's locally running on the C-64 using the 'Color-64' BBS
> program. Of course, they're mainly geared towards the Commodore crowd and the
> C-64, but they are quite interesting. One of them is the official board of
> the local Commodore 64/128 user group.
Many of them (commodore BBSs) are networked now, my board (which runs
Image BBS) belongs to a network of 60 or so boards. In just a couple
years the BBS program it runs will be eligible for discussion!
------------------------
> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com>
> Subject: Re: PETS & the Silly Game
> Don't worry. It just adds character to the machine. You can just say
> some "unknown" hacker made the mod if anyone asks. And don't forget to
> mention it adds character to the machine.
I myself think you should take credit for the mod, since many of the
'card jockys' today don't know which end of a soldering iron is the
business end. I've got a 64 with a second SID hack (not by me but paid
by me), I am proud of that machine.
Larry Anderson
> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:21:01 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Doug Spence <ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca>
> To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> Subject: PET stuff
> Does anyone out there know much about the old PET 2001 machines?
I know pretty much PET software & usage, and have a bunch of good books
to help me on other aspects... ;)
> I received a PET a couple of years ago, in which all of the 6550 SRAMs
> were fried. I replaced them with the chips from another PET 2001 (one
> with the miniature keyboard, from 1977) and the system worked fine.
> Does anyone know how all of the memory chips could've been killed?
> I tried them in various patterns in the sockets, and it does seem as if
> all 16 of them are fried.
Never heard of that, but I did have a friend who tried expanding PET
memory by piggybacking RAM chips ; that fried his... (beware, he's
still out there...)
> Anyway, is it still possible to get 6550s anywhere? And if not, is there
> a replacement that could be used?
MOS technologies found out they wern't good RAM manufacturers, the
comptible and available chip number you seek is 2114. Which I have
found in a Jameco Catalog (415-592-8097)
> Even better: Can I simply replace the 6550s with another type of chip and
> get more RAM in the system? Most of my software works in 8K, but I do
> have some music files that require more. (I have one of those external
> music boards that plugs into the cassette2 and user ports, that delivers
> four voices.)
Wow! An MTU sound board! Got to hear a demonstration of it some 15
years ago, pretty nice sound! One of these days I might come across one
of 'em for my own.
Back to RAM, from the next paragraph I would say that you can add via
that expansion
board. But just in case I'm mistaken, here is something I found in
Nick Hampshire's
PET Revealed:
... The old 8K machines used 4K bit static RAMs, these were one of two
types the 6550 and the 2114. Both these chips are functionally
indentical in most respects since they are organised as 1K by 4 bits.
The latest versions of the static RAM 8K machines used the 6550....
... The new 32K and 16K dynamic RAM machines use the 4116 memory chip
and the dynamic 8K the 4108. These two RAM chips are pin compatable,
with the 4116 having 16K bits of memory and the 4108 8K bits. This is
useful since it allows the same circuit board to be used for all sizes
of machine. Memory on the 16 and 32K machines is organised as two banks
each of 16K bytes, only one bank being implemented in the 16K....
> Now, another question. With that same PET, came an expansion board of
> some kind. Its like a daughterboard, physically mounted on posts above
> the motherboard, but connected via the memory expansion connector on the
> side.
>
> It appears (yes) to be a memory board, with 16 RAM chips on it. At least,
> they look like they could be RAM chips, judging by the traces on the
> board. However, I've never seen RAM chips with gold contacts and gold
> plates on their backs before, as six of these chips have, so I'm wondering
> if this could be more than just a memory board.
Sounds like an Expandamem or ExpandaPET to me, I have the docs for it, I
think it has schematics and stuff. Mine have the same chips too, look
like tiny ROMs or EPROMs..
> The board is dead, BTW. The PET won't operate with the board plugged in.
> It just comes up with a screenful of garbage characters.
[clip]
> Both connectors on the cable that leads from the expansion board to the
> motherboard are noticeably burnt. In both cases, the burn marks surround
> the pin that connects to the black wire.
OUCH!!!! That's gotta hurt... Hope you figure out what did that.
>
> The only identifying mark on the board is the text:
> R 3014
> rev.
> C
> COPYRIGHT 1978 R.C.Factor
My ExpandaPET book has (c) 1979 Computhink (yours could be an earlier
version?), also my board has four breadboard (edgecard) sockets to add
devices like disk drive controller cards and the like.
> Does anyone have any better guesses than me as to its function? (Can the
> edge connector on the side of the PET be used for anything other than RAM
> expansion?)
The only other thing I could think of it being (if it had a patch into
the monitor connector) would be a Visible Memory (hi-res graphics)
board. But I doubt that.
Let me know If you want a copy of the documentation I have for my board
to see if it will help.
> Doug Spence
> ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
> ------------------------------
> > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote:
> >
> > > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of
> > > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the
> > > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up
> > > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back.
>
What I bought: Atari 1200 XL, 1050 Disk Drive, and Supra Atari 300 baud
modem (all sans power supplies *sigh*) for $15 at a flea market (need
power supplies to test them still), and a (working!) Apple ImageWriter
II for $14.95 at a thrift shop. Software.
What I passed up:
2 CoCo 3s (bare), one for $15 one unknown
1 CoCo dual 5.25" Disk Drive price unknown
1 black/silver TI 99/4a (bare) $10
1 Atari 800 (bare, but had BASIC cart inside) $10
Plus/4, C-64, an MPS 801, tons of IBM clones didn't bother pricing.
Oh! Last week I happend upon a Panasonic MSX unit! Looked
interesting, unfortunately the guy couldn't sell it cause 'they haven't
decided how much to price it' (hence it would probably be expensive),
sure looked neat, had alot of I/O and noted a switch to change tape baud
rates. (they had the tape program/books already out on the floor just
waiting for kids to tear them apart.)
Larry Anderson
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On 24-Apr-97, classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu wrote:
>BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a
>VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :)
Doug,
There are 4 BBS's locally running on the C-64 using the 'Color-64' BBS
program. Of course, they're mainly geared towards the Commodore crowd and the
C-64, but they are quite interesting. One of them is the official board of
the local Commodore 64/128 user group. It still shows people are still
running BBS's using the older hardware though!
Jeff jeffh(a)eleventh.com
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Collector of classic home computers:
Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128,
C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive
Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000,
TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and
2600VCS game consoles.
In a message dated 97-04-27 21:51:43 EDT, you write:
<< What would be the point in doing this though, if the board didn't
emulate a
specific 68000 series computer? >>
It was designed for number crunching. It was much faster than
Microsoft Fortran on an 8088, or the 80286.
Kelly
Had a huge success at a local thrift store this saturday, much of it is
components < 10 years old. But I did find a Power Supply for an Atari
Computer (Ihave aquired an 800, 1200xk and 1050 all sans Power
Supplies). Soooo.. today I hooked the buggers in one by one:
The 800, powered up like a champ! Got the Atari FAQs up and determined
I have an 800 with a GITA and the BASIC cartridge is Revision A.
The 1200XL is a different matter, Powered up, got the logo, went to
diagnostics, sound O.K., Memory looks good, but keyboard... I can get
the top row (reset,start,select,option, & help) working but the other
keys seem dead. The strange thing is I gboot up BASIC and I press a
letter and the computer responds with it's 'click' sound but no key
(maybe something in the decoding logic???) Any Atarians got a clue?
Since I only have the one power supply I had to power up the 1050 as a
standalone the head did a quick back-fourth motion and the activity
light stopped so that seems to be a promising sign. Second request:
When I get a second supply I gonna kinda need a disk to run on this
thing, can anyone help set me up with some essential disks (DOS,
utilities, maybe some common games, etc.) I can trade for some fine
Commodore Programs and such. (=))
One yard sale find was a batch of Radio Electronics Magazines, dated
back in the 80s... Will have to scan through those closely. At first I
thought I'd just weed out the ones I wanted and pass on the rest, but
I've made that mistake once before.... They will go into storage.
Yet another yard sale purchase was a 64 system (I dare not count how
many I have), so far so good, the C64 and power supply are fully
functional and the keyboard is amazingly clean (i.e. all the keys work,
even though It looks like someone tracked mud on the computer). I still
have to test the monitor and 1541, but I feel confident they will
function.
--
>From: Paul E Coad <pcoad(a)crl.com>
>Subject: weekend additions
>I picked up some good stuff today. Here is the haul:
>One nearly mint copy of "More BASIC Computer Games" by David Ahl.
>One "The Best of Creative Computing V.3" by Ahl and Green.
>One boxed copy of Adventure for HP 150 and HP 110. (yes, THAT >adventure).
>One boxed Commodore Plus/4.
>One Sun type 4 keyboard and mouse (not yet classic, but good none the >>less).
>Total: $11.00
Good haul! I would've paid that much for that Creative Computing
book.
>I have a few questions:
>Can the Plus/4 run C64 software?
BASIC, pretty much so, except if there are POKEs and SYS commands in it
it may need some converting, some BASIC may not be easy or possible
mainly if there is sprite or sound usage as those chips are VERY
different then on the 64.
There are some good FTP sites for the Plus/4, just make sure when you
download games and demos they are NTSC and not PAL, (PAL graphics are
unviewable on an NTSC Plus/4), there are game conversions available (Jim
Hehl is probably the most noted for converting programs 64 and Plus/4
european to the American Plus/4 platform).
This reminds me I really need to get the adapter pinouts of the
Joysticks and the Cassette port on my web page. (whisper.. "if you write
it they will browse...")
>In the user's manual there is a picture of a 1541 disk drive which looked
>black. It was a black and white picture, but the 1541s that I have seen
>all match the color scheme of the C64. Has anyone seen a black 1541?
Not me, though you can tell Commodore was toying with the idea (on the
Plus/4, C-16, MPS-803, DPS-1101, and the 1531 datasette for the
Plus/4/16)
It could have been the rare Commodore 1551 disk drive. Commodore's
attempt at a fast parallel drive. It was to hook into the parallel port
of the Plus/4 and delivered a great speed improvement over the 1541 (not
too hard of a feat.) I hear it was released in Europe but not in the
states.
>I now have volumes 1 and 3 of "The Best of Creative Computing", how many
>volumes where published?
I think they stopped with volume 3, I remember they closed out a bunch
of their inventory to schools (which included vols 1-3) at about $100 or
so, that was sometime in 1982. Gosh I wish I had all that stuff today:
posters, computer music record, books, etc.
>Happy hunting,
------------
>From: hellige <jeffh(a)eleventh.com>
>Subject: Re: weekend additions
> Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Plus/4 (like the C-16) was
>intended as an upgrade, and total break, from the C-64 and is incompatible in
>both hardware and software to the C-64. I've seen it said that this was one
>of the main reasons the machine never caught on. As for the color scheme of
>the 1541 though, the later 1541's were the ones that matched the brown color
>of the C-64. The earlier 1541's, labled VIC-1541, matched the lighter color
>of the VIC-20. It is the VIC-1541 that I have in my collection.
The 1541 is VERY compatible with the Plus/4 and Commodore 16 (thank
goodness!) You can adapt a datasette to use on the Plus/4 but Commodore
decided to change the pitches at which the data is recorded thus making
it impossible to interchange data via tape between other Commodore
8-bits. The format and timing are the same from what I understand.
Larry Anderson
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Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare
Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363
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In a message dated 97-04-27 14:49:28 EDT, you write:
<< Markings: "DSI-780" on the front, and "Rev B Copyright 1986
Definicon" on the rear >>
The Definicon coprocessor board for the PC. You could basically
compile and run Fortran programs in the coprocessor. Not Mac
related. sorta dated now, but cool at the time.
Mine seems to have a bad Simm, and would fail periodically. I haven't used
it in years.
Kelly
This is likely not really the right place to ask this, but nobody else in
other groups has a clue about a 16bit ISA board I have. It is as follows:
16bit ISA board for IBM compatiblle
16mhz MC68020RC16B and MC68881RC16A processors
16 30 pin memory modules soldered directly to the circuit board
each module contains 9 41256-120 RAM chips (NEC 8608E621)
1 DB-9 and 1 DB-25 connector (both male) on the rear cover plate
Markings: "DSI-780" on the front, and "Rev B Copyright 1986
Definicon" on the rear
There is also an empty socket, the same size as the 68020 socket.
I aquired this board from a pile of misc. circuit boards that was being
tossed out a couple of years ago, and have not been able to find out any
information on it. Any info at all would be most helpful. To me, it appears
to be some kind of hardware emulator for an Apple or Mac. I know in the late
80's there were a number of Apple II emulator boards for the PC running
around, as I recall seeing them for sale in the Radio Shack catalogs of the
period. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Jeff jeffh(a)eleventh.com
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Collector of classic home computers:
Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D,
Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive
Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000,
TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and
2600VCS game consoles.
Hi all.
Anyone know where alignment disks can be purchased these days?
Bill
----------------------------------------------------
Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp
bill(a)booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw(a)u.washington.edu
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw
On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu wrote:
>Since I only have the one power supply I had to power up the 1050 as a
One thing about Atari 8bit stuff is a lot of it tended to use it's own
power rating on the power supply, and not really interchangeable between most
of it, it seems.
Jeff jeffh(a)eleventh.com
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Collector of classic home computers:
Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D,
Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive
Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000,
TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and
2600VCS game consoles.
On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu wrote:
>The Definicon coprocessor board for the PC. You could basically
>compile and run Fortran programs in the coprocessor. Not Mac
>related. sorta dated now, but cool at the time.
That's interesting. It makes sense considering where I got it as
well...lots of engineers and R&D work. Looks like he board had a bit more
memory on it than the average PC of the time.
>Mine seems to have a bad Simm, and would fail periodically. I haven't used
>it in years.
Would you still have the disks for it? Do you know if there was any type
of diagnostic on the disk to determine if this board is functional or not?
Thanks.
Jeff jeffh(a)eleventh.com
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Collector of classic home computers:
Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D,
Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive
Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000,
TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and
2600VCS game consoles.
