5 Jan
2018
5 Jan
'18
11:52 a.m.
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow like to image
them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the contents of
multiple floppies to
make a single good one
These are all 8? diskettes.
The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like
d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
5 Jan
5 Jan
11:56 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow
like to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the
contents of multiple floppies to
make a single good one
These are all 8? diskettes.
The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like
d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
I love the imaging capabilities of kryoflux (http://www.kyroflux.com/).
You'd have to remove the 8" floppy from the IBM and connect it to the
kyroflux to do the imaging.
Warner
12:07 p.m.
I don?t know much about the system itself but if it used one of the typical IBM 8?
diskette formats, you may be able to use IMD or Teledisk and an appropriate multi-density
floppy controller. I?ve had pretty good success with those two programs.
Get Outlook for iOS
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 2:56 PM -0500, "Warner Losh via cctalk" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow
like to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the
contents of multiple floppies to
make a single good one
These are all 8? diskettes.
The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like
d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
I love the imaging capabilities of kryoflux (http://www.kyroflux.com/).
You'd have to remove the 8" floppy from the IBM and connect it to the
kyroflux to do the imaging.
Warner
12:08 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow
like to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the
contents of multiple floppies to
make a single good one
These are all 8? diskettes.
The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like
d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
As far as backing up the floppies, I used ImageDisk with an 8" Shugart 850
hooked up to a PC to image and duplicate the microcode floppies for the
43xx machines we have at the museum. It works quite well. Obviously this
would require you to pick up a "new" 8" drive (I've no experience with
IBM
8" drives, but I wager they're not going to "just work" with a PC
FDC.)
The IMD tools come with an image viewer that can translate EBCDIC, though
you'll probably want something more advanced to actually modify/splice
things.
- Josh
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
1:38 p.m.
On 2018-01-05 4:08 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
the IBM manufactured 8" drives are not going to work on a PC the signals
on the interfaces are quite different and there is no track zero signal,
in IBM systems when they initialized they did enough down steps to?
ensure head was at track zero.? Anyone that has heard a 33FD drive seek
zero will remember the sound that they made when the carriage hammered
on the down stop, the problem was the stop would break off and the
carriage would go below track zero.? There where some 8" drive
assemblies manufactured for AS/400 that do use drives with and "industry
standard" interface I recently saw an external one for sale on eBay.
Paul.
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow
like to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the
contents of multiple floppies to
make a single good one
These are all 8? diskettes.
The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like
d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
As far as backing up the floppies, I used ImageDisk with an 8" Shugart 850
hooked up to a PC to image and duplicate the microcode floppies for the
43xx machines we have at the museum. It works quite well. Obviously this
would require you to pick up a "new" 8" drive (I've no experience with
IBM
8" drives, but I wager they're not going to "just work" with a PC
FDC.)
The IMD tools come with an image viewer that can translate EBCDIC, though
you'll probably want something more advanced to actually modify/splice
things.
- Josh
> Thanks.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
> 
2:45 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
Sotomayor via cctalk
Sent: 05 January 2018 19:53
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow
like to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the
contents of multiple floppies to
make a single good one
These are all 8? diskettes.
The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like
d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the standard
3740 format. I would try that first.
https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/diskettes.html
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
Dave
3:13 p.m.
On 01/05/2018 02:45 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the standard
3740 format. I would try that first.
https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/diskettes.html
I've got a pretty good pile of IBM 8" disks,from System/3 to
Displaywriter. If you've got a PC hooked to a standard drive that can
handle FM recording, you're good with IMD and a few other packages.
If you've got any of the 8" "magazines", they open easily and the
disks
are straightforward 8" floppies.
--Chuck
7 Jan
7 Jan
10:48 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally
their disks follow the
standard 3740 format.
True for anything you're likely to encounter in the "real world", but in
the interest of muddying the waters I'll point out that IBM's _first_
floppy drives, used for microcode load on big iron, were NOT even remotely
compatible with the later 3740 and succesors. The disk was the same
physical size, but the index hole was near the edge of the disk, rather
than near the spindle. They spun at 90 RPM rather than 360, and were
read-only. (Obviously IBM had some drives that could write that format,
but they didn't provide them to customers.)
I think it's a safe bet that the 4331 microcode disks do NOT use that
format. Guy would have noticed if the diskettes didn't look like "normal"
8-inchers.
5 Jan
5 Jan
6:49 p.m.
On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow like to image
them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the contents of
multiple floppies to
make a single good one
Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy? I know next
to nothing of this hardware. But, I know the VAX 11/780
really well. You could make copies of its console floppy on
that drive, once the OS was up.
Jon
6 Jan
6 Jan
2:42 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
via cctalk
Sent: 06 January 2018 02:50
To: Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>; General at ezwind.net;
Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: non-PC Floppy imaging
On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
Yes it can, it writes error log data to the floppy. It?s a pity most of the operating
guides to the 43xx boxes are lost which would be usefull as they will have instructions on
how to back up the diskettes,
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would
somehow like to
image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves
go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the
contents of
multiple floppies to
make a single good one
Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy? I know next to nothing of this
hardware. But, I know the VAX 11/780 really well. You could make copies of
its console floppy on that drive, once the OS was up.
Jon
Dave
10:16 a.m.
On Jan 6, 2018, at 2:42 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I was reading that last night (as well as the CE being able to ?patch? the uCode and save
it on the floppy).
I have an entire FE cart (both sides) full of manuals for various parts of my 4331 (and
peripherals). I haven?t looked through all of them (including various other manuals in a
several foot long holder) to see if there?s an operating guide in there or not.
TTFN - Guy
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
via cctalk
Sent: 06 January 2018 02:50
To: Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>; General at ezwind.net;
Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: non-PC Floppy imaging
On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
Yes it can, it writes error log data to the floppy. It?s a pity most of the operating
guides to the 43xx boxes are lost which would be usefull as they will have instructions on
how to back up the diskettes, Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would
somehow like to
image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves
go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the
contents of
multiple floppies to
make a single good one
Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy? I know next to nothing of this
hardware. But, I know the VAX 11/780 really well. You could make copies of
its console floppy on that drive, once the OS was up.
7 Jan
7 Jan
10:33 p.m.
Hi Guy,
I just copied several IBM 8" Maintenance Device (MD) Diskettes - and
verified that the copies work on the IBM MD. They seem to be in an IBM
3x0 format (with a standard IBM VTOC).
Track 0 on the diskettes is 128 byte sectors,
Tracks 1 through 76 are 256 byte sectors.
The diskettes are DSSD.
(So you need a Shugart 850/851 (or equivalent) to make the copies).
I used both Teledisk and IMD - and both successfully captured and
re-created the diskettes correctly.
More in editing IBM images later...
Cheers,
Lyle
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:52:56 -0800
Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would
somehow like to image them so: a) I have backups in case the floppies
themselves go bad b) be able to investigate their contents in case I
have to ?merge? the contents of multiple floppies to make a single
good one
These are all 8? diskettes.
The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like
d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC)
equipment
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
--
73 AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
10:46 p.m.
Thanks Lyle.
My biggest impediment at the moment is not actually having a PC that has a floppy
drive. :-o
The other is time?work has been crazy as indicated by Jensen?s CES keynote
tonight where the chip that I?ve been working on was just announced! yea!
9,000,000,000 transistors!
TTFN - Guy
On Jan 7, 2018, at 10:33 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley
at bickleywest.com> wrote:
Hi Guy,
I just copied several IBM 8" Maintenance Device (MD) Diskettes - and
verified that the copies work on the IBM MD. They seem to be in an IBM
3x0 format (with a standard IBM VTOC).
Track 0 on the diskettes is 128 byte sectors,
Tracks 1 through 76 are 256 byte sectors.
The diskettes are DSSD.
(So you need a Shugart 850/851 (or equivalent) to make the copies).
I used both Teledisk and IMD - and both successfully captured and
re-created the diskettes correctly.
More in editing IBM images later...
Cheers,
Lyle
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:52:56 -0800
Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi,
I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would
somehow like to image them so: a) I have backups in case the floppies
themselves go bad b) be able to investigate their contents in case I
have to ?merge? the contents of multiple floppies to make a single
good one
These are all 8? diskettes.
The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like
d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC)
equipment
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
--
73 AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
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