8 Dec
2017
8 Dec
'17
12:25 p.m.
I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
Back/Fans [M8266--------]? Front of machine where keypad is.
????????? [M8265--------]
????????? [M9312] [M7859]
????????? [M7762--------]
????????? [OPEN]? [M7860]
????????? [M7840--------]
????????? Bus grant in third from front slot
????????? [M9302] [M7856]
The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running
XP&Hyperterminal
When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered
off, then back on, and now it says '5'
Any suggestions as to what to try first?? I may have the bus grant in
backwards.? I have other boards I can try.
Sincerely,
John Welch
:qw
8 Dec
8 Dec
1:17 p.m.
Van: John Welch via cctech<mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: vrijdag 8 december 2017 21:25
Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Revive 11/34
I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is.
[M8265--------]
[M9312] [M7859]
[M7762--------]
[OPEN] [M7860]
[M7840--------]
Bus grant in third from front slot
[M9302] [M7856]
The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running
XP&Hyperterminal
When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered
off, then back on, and now it says '5'
Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in
backwards. I have other boards I can try.
Sincerely,
John Welch
:qw
It is not completely clear (to me) how the modules are installed in the
backplane. Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the
console), slot number 1 is at the right side. Each slot has 6 positions.
Position A is at the rear side, followed by B thru F. Position F is
thus at the front side.
There is no confusion about the first 4 slots.
Slot 1 and 2 hold the 11/34A processor boards, with M8266 in slot 1,
and M8265 in slot 2.
Slot 3, positions A and B has the M9312 bootstrap/terminator board,
and slot3, positions C thru F has the M7859 KY11-LB programmer's console
interface board.
Slot 4 holds the RL11 interface. This module does "DMA", so the NPR
jumper must be cut (open) on the backplane.
Slot 5 has an SPC in positions C thru F. I had to look it up; it is the
DR11-C.
We are up to slot 6. Now things get "interesting" ... is that M7840 a typo?
The field guide says that this is a KE11-B Extended Arithmetic Element.
I do not know that board, is it "hex" or "quad"?
Not sure that board belongs there ... and if it is quad, I assume it has
to be in positions C thru F. I would suggest to pull this module, and
check the NPR wire presence on the backplane. You need a G727A or G7273
in this slot when the M7840 is removed.
If you are not skipping slots (see below), we are now at slot 7. There
is probably a G727A grant continuity card (aka "knockle buster") in
position D. That would be OK, but if the NPR jumper is cut on the
backplane, you would need a G7273 continuity and NPR card in positions
C - D. It is easy to have the G727 put in wrong. The 4 copper "jumper"
traces should be facing the next higher-numbered slot.
Then you say that the next slot has the M9202 (in position A - B) and
the M7856 (SLU and RTC) in positions C thru F.
The M9202 connects two system units (backplanes). So, what is the next
backplane? Or do you have the M9202 in slot 8 and slot 9, positions
A - B? I have never seen that ...
I am missing one slot. The 11/34 backplane has 9 slots.
When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers.
If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an
issue with the console itself, or the M7859. The 6 digits of the display
are multiplexed. Maybe the connection cable between the console and the
M7859 - damaged/knicked? It is worth checking out the simpler things first.
Henk.
1:50 p.m.
On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is.
[M8265--------]
[M9312] [M7859]
[M7762--------]
[OPEN] [M7860]
[M7840--------]
Bus grant in third from front slot
[M9302] [M7856]
The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal
When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then
back on, and now it says '5'
Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have
other boards I can try.
Sincerely,
John Welch
:qw
1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from
the back)
It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles remember.
You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the
M7840 that requires DMA.
2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the
M785 to make sure they match.
3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the
Hyperterminal?
An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB?
4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s?
5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info.
Jerry
3:49 p.m.
I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.? It is configured like this:
11/04:
........................?? AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
........................ 2 [M7847----------------] ....................
........................ 3???????? [M7859--------] ....................
........................ 4 [M7847----------------] ....................
........................ 5???????????? GNT ....................
........................ 6 [M7762----------------] ....................
........................ 7 [M7840----------------] ....................
........................ 8???????? [DILOG--------] ....................
........................ 9?????? {nothing} ....................
........................?? AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312
for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up.? Any suggestions?
On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
--
Sincerely,
John Welch
281-353-4706 Home
713-725-7017 Cell
:qw
I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is.
[M8265--------]
[M9312] [M7859]
[M7762--------]
[OPEN] [M7860]
[M7840--------]
Bus grant in third from front slot
[M9302] [M7856]
The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal
When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then
back on, and now it says '5'
Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have
other boards I can try.
Sincerely,
John Welch
:qw
1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from
the back)
It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles
remember.
You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the
M7840 that requires DMA.
2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the
M785 to make sure they match.
3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the
Hyperterminal?
An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB?
4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s?
5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info.
Jerry
6:58 p.m.
On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
>>
>> Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is.
>> [M8265--------]
>> [M9312] [M7859]
>> [M7762--------]
>> [OPEN] [M7860]
>> [M7840--------]
>> Bus grant in third from front slot
>> [M9302] [M7856]
>> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running
XP&Hyperterminal
>>
>> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered
off, then back on, and now it says '5'
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards.
I have other boards I can try.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> John Welch
>> :qw
>>
>
> 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth
from the back)
> It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles
remember.
>
> You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past
the
> M7840 that requires DMA.
Ignore this last suggestion (see below).
2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the
M785 to make sure they match.
3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the
Hyperterminal?
An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB?
4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s?
5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info.
Jerry
On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:26 PM, John Welch via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Update:
This is the map of the machine:
........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M8266----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
........................ 2 [M8265----------------] ....................
........................ 3 [M9312] [M7859--------] ....................
........................ 4 [M7891----------------] ....................
........................ 5 [M7762----------------] ....................
........................ 6 [M7860--------] ....................
........................ 7 [M7840----------------] ....................
........................ 8 GNT ....................
........................ 9 [M9302] [M7856--------] ....................
........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
Reseating the ribbon cable on the M7859 changed the display. I have replaced the M7840
with a G7273.
Now when I power on it says (dim)0, (bright)0, blank, (dim)0, blank, blank.
I have reseated the M7859, I don't think I have another one.
Maybe I should hit it with a vacuum.
I had forgotten about needing to cut a wire for DMA. Can you give me a refresher on how
to tell which slots are cut? I remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a
particular wire but that was >15 years ago. On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:49 PM, John Welch <jcwelch at
hal-pc.org> wrote:
I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out. It is configured like this:
11/04:
........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
........................ 2 [M7847----------------] ....................
........................ 3 [M7859--------] ....................
........................ 4 [M7847----------------] ....................
........................ 5 GNT ....................
........................ 6 [M7762----------------] ....................
........................ 7 [M7840----------------] ....................
........................ 8 [DILOG--------] ....................
........................ 9 {nothing} ....................
........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 for slot 3 and
maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions?
The 11/04 and 11/34a are of the same engineering cycle, so share these parts. See
http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/bootstrap-info.html
<http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/bootstrap-info.html>
and
http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/EK-11004-OP-001%…
<http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/EK-11004-OP-001%20PDP-11-04%20System%20User's%20Manual.pdf>
I believe the cabling for the M7859 is a little different between the two See Section A
in the 11/04 Manual.
Jerry
9 Dec
9 Dec
3:07 a.m.
Ahh, that M9203 in slot 9, positions A ? B, sounds more familiar (or is it M9302?)
The M7856 is often in slot 9 position C ? F, when used as console.
Interesting, the 11/04 also has that M7840 installed. Could you pull that board (uhmmm,
you did), and have a look at the texts in the etch? The ?older? boards (UNIBUS, and many
QBUS too) had a function identificaltion in the etch. Like the M7856, which says (IIRC)
?SLU & RTC?. Maybe the identification in the Field Guide is wrong ?
Before powering up the 11/04, I would do a thorough mechanical check of it, as many times
described here ? for example: loose screws in the box (took out my 11/35 arghh, working on
a repair!), cables not properly seated, dust and other things that should not be there.
Just an overal inspection. You could makes notes of where the boards are placed and take a
picture. Then remove the boards (observe ESD guide lines), turn on the power and check the
voltages from the regulators. Easiest way to do that is removing the bottom cover. Then
you can check the voltages on the connection points at the rear end of the backplane(s).
If needed, adjust the output voltage(s).
Turn off, and wait (measure!) that all voltages have dropped to near zero. Install the
boards again, connect a terminal and proceed ?
Back to the 11/34A.
I haven?t turned on my 11/34 for some time, so I forgot whether the 7-segment display has
6 or 7 digits.
But what I do know is that they are always all 6 (or 7) on. If that is not the case, there
is definitely something wrong.
________________________________
Van: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> namens John Welch via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: Saturday, December 9, 2017 12:49:01 AM
Aan: Jerry Weiss; cctech at classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: Re: Revive 11/34
I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out. It is configured like this:
11/04:
........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
........................ 2 [M7847----------------] ....................
........................ 3 [M7859--------] ....................
........................ 4 [M7847----------------] ....................
........................ 5 GNT ....................
........................ 6 [M7762----------------] ....................
........................ 7 [M7840----------------] ....................
........................ 8 [DILOG--------] ....................
........................ 9 {nothing} ....................
........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312
for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions?
On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
--
Sincerely,
John Welch
281-353-4706 Home
713-725-7017 Cell
:qw
I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is.
[M8265--------]
[M9312] [M7859]
[M7762--------]
[OPEN] [M7860]
[M7840--------]
Bus grant in third from front slot
[M9302] [M7856]
The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal
When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then
back on, and now it says '5'
Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have
other boards I can try.
Sincerely,
John Welch
:qw
1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from
the back)
It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles
remember.
You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the
M7840 that requires DMA.
2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the
M785 to make sure they match.
3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the
Hyperterminal?
An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB?
4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s?
5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info.
Jerry
6:33 a.m.
I added an M9302 in Slot9-AB and then moved the M7856 from the 11/34 to Slot9-CDEF of the
11/04. I put a random M9312 in Slot3-AB I turned on the 11/04.
I have six ?0? digits. I push ctrl+hlt and the display shows 173066. Looks like things
are moving.
The ultimate goal is to hook this unit to an RL02, possibility an RX02, a console, and
then image some RL02 disks.
I need to determine the console line settings and what M9312 with what boot ROMs makes
sense. Off to the ranch to see if I can dig a VT100 out of a barn.
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 9, 2017, at 5:07 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
Ahh, that M9203 in slot 9, positions A ? B, sounds more familiar (or is it M9302?)
The M7856 is often in slot 9 position C ? F, when used as console.
Interesting, the 11/04 also has that M7840 installed. Could you pull that board (uhmmm,
you did), and have a look at the texts in the etch? The ?older? boards (UNIBUS, and many
QBUS too) had a function identificaltion in the etch. Like the M7856, which says (IIRC)
?SLU & RTC?. Maybe the identification in the Field Guide is wrong ?
Before powering up the 11/04, I would do a thorough mechanical check of it, as many times
described here ? for example: loose screws in the box (took out my 11/35 arghh, working on
a repair!), cables not properly seated, dust and other things that should not be there.
Just an overal inspection. You could makes notes of where the boards are placed and take a
picture. Then remove the boards (observe ESD guide lines), turn on the power and check the
voltages from the regulators. Easiest way to do that is removing the bottom cover. Then
you can check the voltages on the connection points at the rear end of the backplane(s).
If needed, adjust the output voltage(s).
Turn off, and wait (measure!) that all voltages have dropped to near zero. Install the
boards again, connect a terminal and proceed ?
Back to the 11/34A.
I haven?t turned on my 11/34 for some time, so I forgot whether the 7-segment display has
6 or 7 digits.
But what I do know is that they are always all 6 (or 7) on. If that is not the case, there
is definitely something wrong.
Van: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> namens John Welch via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: Saturday, December 9, 2017 12:49:01 AM
Aan: Jerry Weiss; cctech at classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: Re: Revive 11/34
I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out. It is configured like this:
11/04:
........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
........................ 2 [M7847----------------] ....................
........................ 3 [M7859--------] ....................
........................ 4 [M7847----------------] ....................
........................ 5 GNT ....................
........................ 6 [M7762----------------] ....................
........................ 7 [M7840----------------] ....................
........................ 8 [DILOG--------] ....................
........................ 9 {nothing} ....................
........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312
for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions?
On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
--
Sincerely,
John Welch
281-353-4706 Home
713-725-7017 Cell
:qw
I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is.
[M8265--------]
[M9312] [M7859]
[M7762--------]
[OPEN] [M7860]
[M7840--------]
Bus grant in third from front slot
[M9302] [M7856]
The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal
When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then
back on, and now it says '5'
Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have
other boards I can try.
Sincerely,
John Welch
:qw
1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from
the back)
It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles
remember.
You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the
M7840 that requires DMA.
2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the
M785 to make sure they match.
3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the
Hyperterminal?
An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB?
4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s?
5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info.
Jerry
11 Dec
11 Dec
5:15 a.m.
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in
backwards. I have other boards I can try.
>>
For an 11/34A can one test for DC LO / AC LO? If so and you don't get the
correct reading that's a show stopper right there. Remove all but the
essential cards, terminate the UNIBUS to the shortest poss. size and least
RAM. I no longer have an 11/34A but there are a lot of similarities to the
11/40. Many cards interchangable.
Bill
5:56 a.m.
Ray Fantini knows the 11/34 very well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU8DOKVxDJ8
He helped me with UNIBUS diagnosis.
I am sure you have seen this:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/
I would definitely start with the power supply and work my way through the
voltage regulators, etc. If you already did this, I apologize for missing
that you mentioned.
BIll
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 8:15 AM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in
backwards. I have other boards I can try.
>>
For an 11/34A can one test for DC LO / AC LO? If so and you don't get the
correct reading that's a show stopper right there. Remove all but the
essential cards, terminate the UNIBUS to the shortest poss. size and least
RAM. I no longer have an 11/34A but there are a lot of similarities to the
11/40. Many cards interchangable.
Bill
11:50 a.m.
There has been plenty of good suggestions already.
If I were you I would:
1. Check voltages from the PSU as mentioned previously.
2. Check AC LO / DC LO signals as Bill mentioned.
3. Strip out every card on the bus except of the terminator boards and the
M7859 programmers console.
4. Put the console in maintenance mode and check that the BUS itself is OK.
(http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console)
5. Add more cards, like serial board M7856 or whatever and then use the
programmers console to probe it.
6. Add memory and check a few locations from the programmers console.
7. Add the CPU and check that you can read the PSW register at 777776 and
the internal registers starting at 777700.
Since the programmers console has its own 8008 on board it is a quite
powerful tool to diagnose the Unibus and the peripherals even without the
CPU is present or running.
But note that the M7859 might fail. One of my M7859 had failed and it took
a while to repair. OC drivers, flip flops and registers was bad. Here is my
story :
http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04…
12 Dec
12 Dec
5:01 a.m.
On Dec 12, 2017 3:41 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctech" <cctech at
classiccmp.org>
wrote:
There has been plenty of good suggestions already.
If I were you I would:
1. Check voltages from the PSU as mentioned previously.
2. Check AC LO / DC LO signals as Bill mentioned.
3. Strip out every card on the bus except of the terminator boards and the
M7859 programmers console.
4. Put the console in maintenance mode and check that the BUS itself is
OK.
(http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console)
5. Add more cards, like serial board M7856 or whatever and then use the
programmers console to probe it.
6. Add memory and check a few locations from the programmers console.
7. Add the CPU and check that you can read the PSW register at 777776 and
the internal registers starting at 777700.
Since the programmers console has its own 8008 on board it is a quite
powerful tool to diagnose the Unibus and the peripherals even without the
CPU is present or running.
But note that the M7859 might fail. One of my M7859 had failed and it took
a while to repair. OC drivers, flip flops and registers was bad. Here is
my
story :
http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04…
Here's one more... if possible find a working 11/34 and perform a
diagnostic procedure or measurement there and take notes, then repeat on
your system. That, and swapping known-working boards when available will
help pinpoint problems where they exist.
Bill
2348
days inactive
2352
days old
10 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
henk.gooijen＠hotmail.com -
jcwelch＠hal-pc.org -
jsw＠ieee.org -
mattislind＠gmail.com