8 Mar
2016
8 Mar
'16
3:35 p.m.
I purchased a DEC VMS 4.4 source code microfiche set a while back. A buddy
of mine works at a local library where there is a fancy microfiche scanner,
I'm planning to scan it all. Some of the film is scratched pretty bad, does
anyone else around here have this set, so that i can recover the full page
set?
--Devin
9 Mar
9 Mar
12:19 a.m.
On 3/8/2016 1:35 PM, devin davison wrote:
I purchased a DEC VMS 4.4 source code microfiche set a
while back. A
buddy of mine works at a local library where there is a fancy
microfiche scanner, I'm planning to scan it all. Some of the film is
scratched pretty bad, does anyone else around here have this set, so
that i can recover the full page set?
--Devin
I have the DEC VMS 4.1 source code microfiche set with no way to scan
it. It looks to be in very good condition. How good of a friend is he?
Rob.
4:42 a.m.
I purchased a DEC VMS 4.4 source code microfiche set a while back. A buddy
of mine works at a local library where there is a fancy microfiche scanner,
I'm planning to scan it all. Some of the film is scratched pretty bad, does
anyone else around here have this set, so that i can recover the full page
set?
I think this is likely to be source listings (ie the assembler/compiler output
after assembling/compiling the actual source code), at least that's what I have.
Some people seem to try to pass these listings off as actual source code in
order to command a higher price for them on ebay and the like. I'm not sure
but I don't think DEC made the actual source code available, at least not for a
price that ordinary customers could afford.
Source listings for some (later?) versions are available on CD which is much
easier to deal with than microfiche.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
10:17 a.m.
I think this is likely to be source listings (ie the
assembler/compiler output after assembling/compiling the actual
source code), at least that's what I have. [...]
For many purposes, of course, that's just as good, maybe even better.
If you really want to rebuild the system yourself, you'll need
implementations of a whole pile of different languages anyway.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
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12:42 p.m.
On 09/03/16 15:17, Mouse wrote:
The listing format is 132 chars wide, so you do sometimes lose useful stuff.
--
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
I think this
is likely to be source listings (ie the
assembler/compiler output after assembling/compiling the actual
source code), at least that's what I have. [...]
For many purposes, of
course, that's just as good, maybe even better.
If you really want to rebuild the system yourself, you'll need
implementations of a whole pile of different languages anyway.
3:44 p.m.
I do not know much at all about what it would take to compile this into a
working system. My first step is going to be to get over to the library and
get everything into a digital format. Ill be putting everything i scan up
online.
If there is a copy of the source on CD that someone can spare that would be
great, I was unaware any newer versions of the source code were distributed
on newer formats such as CD. I did buy the 4.4 source on microfiche though,
and am expecting to get some more DEC schematics on microfiche as well, so
i want to get familiar with scanning things with the microfiche scanner at
the library.
In response to 'Rob Doyle' - Once i get things figured out with the
microfiche scanner, (i will be doing everything myself) I can get back to
you and look into scanning your set once i know how to work the scanner
better. Everything will be done by myself. The microfiche reader is in the
back of the library, usually for internal library use only by the genealogy
department, My friend is simply getting me access to the machine, i will be
doing all the scanning work and handling of materials myself. My slides
seem to be pretty scratched up, if they are beyond help, ill send you an
email and look into reading your 4.1 source set.
--Devin
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Antonio Carlini <a.carlini at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
On 09/03/16 15:17, Mouse wrote:
I think this is likely to be source listings (ie
the
The listing format is 132 chars wide, so you do sometimes lose useful
stuff.
--
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
assembler/compiler output after
assembling/compiling the actual
source code), at least that's what I have. [...]
For many purposes, of course, that's just as good, maybe even better.
If you really want to rebuild the system yourself, you'll need
implementations of a whole pile of different languages anyway.
11 Mar
11 Mar
2:52 p.m.
On 09/03/16 20:44, devin davison wrote:
I do not know much at all about what it would take to
compile this
into a working system. My first step is going to be to get over to the
library and get everything into a digital format. Ill be putting
everything i scan up online.
The last set of microfiche I have is V4.something. I think V5 is where
they went to CD, but my earliest source listings are
V6.2. Scanning the fiche is a good thing to do, but turning that into a
real digital format (i.e. a text file) will, I suspect, be
something of a challenge.
At one stage I thought I read that someone had gathered up all the old
listings and put them on CD. Whether that's
survived inside DEC ... err ... HP (or maybe even VMS Software Inc.) I
have no idea.
It will be interesting to see, in years to come, whether the microfiche
survives longer than the listings CDs.
My expectation is that the fiche will last longer than the CDs, that the
CDs will last longer than the last working
CD reader, that the fiche will be trivially readable hundreds of years
from now (since a reader is fairly low tech)
and
(probably) the contents of the listings CDs will be readable forever
(once they make it onto the internet ...)
Antonio
4:03 p.m.
On 3/9/2016 3:44 PM, devin davison wrote:
I do not know much at all about what it would take to
compile this into a
working system. My first step is going to be to get over to the library and
get everything into a digital format. Ill be putting everything i scan up
online.
If by "working system" you mean a fully functional (Open)VMS, then you
won't. The source code listings on fiche (or CD/DVD) contain the compiler listings for
many parts of Open)VMS, but not all. They also don't have the utilities needed in the
highly complex toolchain that is used to create a working (Open)VMS system. They were
meant for those who do device driver and internal support to be able to find areas in the
code to debug. They were not meant to be able to build a working system. If you want to
know how a certain system service works or device driver or utility, they are great.
Thank you in advance for putting it online (although it's possible HP might have
something to say about it, but given the version, hopefully not).
If there is a copy of the source on CD that someone
can spare that would be
great, I was unaware any newer versions of the source code were distributed
on newer formats such as CD.
As others have said, (although I think it was V6.0 that started CD, but I could be quite
wrong) the current format for source listings is CD (DVD for the 8.x IA64). I have
several from my stint at HP (as an Oracle DBA contractor, unfortunately not in OpenVMS
support but you'd be surprised at how cheap you can buy things as an employee.)
--Devin
John H. Reinhardt
7:30 p.m.
I made a trip to the library today and set up the reader. Expensive nice
piece of equipment, however it is going to take a long time to scan it all.
I am still uncertain as to weather this is the source or the compiler
output, as some people here suggested it may be. Even with this full set,
is there not enough to build the entire system? Was the full source ever
released? The plan is to scan it all and get it archived. The scanner
seems to be doing a good job. If anyone has other microfiche that would go
well along with this set, and would be willing to mail them, I know how to
work the scanner now and can make a digital copy.
here are the first 12 pages i scanned off the first sheet.
https://www.slashflash.info/~devin/Uploads/images/vms_fiche/
--Devin
On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 4:03 PM, John H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com
wrote:
On 3/9/2016 3:44 PM, devin davison wrote:
John H. Reinhardt
I do not know much at all about what it would
take to compile this into a
working system. My first step is going to be to get over to the library
and
get everything into a digital format. Ill be putting everything i scan up
online.
If by "working system" you mean a fully functional (Open)VMS, then you
won't. The source code listings on fiche (or CD/DVD) contain the compiler
listings for many parts of Open)VMS, but not all. They also don't have the
utilities needed in the highly complex toolchain that is used to create a
working (Open)VMS system. They were meant for those who do device driver
and internal support to be able to find areas in the code to debug. They
were not meant to be able to build a working system. If you want to know
how a certain system service works or device driver or utility, they are
great.
Thank you in advance for putting it online (although it's possible HP
might have something to say about it, but given the version, hopefully not).
If there is a copy of the source on CD that someone can spare that would be
great, I was unaware any newer versions of the
source code were
distributed
on newer formats such as CD.
As others have said, (although I think it was V6.0 that started CD, but I
could be quite wrong) the current format for source listings is CD (DVD for
the 8.x IA64). I have several from my stint at HP (as an Oracle DBA
contractor, unfortunately not in OpenVMS support but you'd be surprised at
how cheap you can buy things as an employee.)
--Devin
7:50 p.m.
On 12/03/16 00:30, devin davison wrote:
I made a trip to the library today and set up the
reader. Expensive nice
piece of equipment, however it is going to take a long time to scan it all.
I am still uncertain as to weather this is the source or the compiler
output, as some people here suggested it may be.
I believe various intelligence and military customers could get source
distributions.
Those were not on fiche: they were on removable packs or tapes. These
kits were (AFAIK)
built on demand. Even those were not (again AFAIK) complete and almost
certainly would
not have included a build environment (i.e. all the procedures needed to
produce a build).
Such source kits were not cheap.
You don't have that. You have source listings.
Even with this full set,
is there not enough to build the entire system?
No
Was the full source ever
released?
Some source was but not to normal customers and I doubt that it was the
full source.
The plan is to scan it all and get it archived. The
scanner
seems to be doing a good job. If anyone has other microfiche that would go
well along with this set, and would be willing to mail them, I know how to
work the scanner now and can make a digital copy.
here are the first 12 pages i scanned off the first sheet.
Those are source listings: they are the output of the compiler.
The quality looks very good. If you have any manuals on fiche (FMPS etc.)
it would be interesting to see how those turn out.
Out of interest, how long did it take to produce those 12 pages?
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
9:12 p.m.
Well, I have the scanner and the time, I am going to put in online anyways.
It may not be the full source, but perhaps it will come in handy for
someone else.
I only spent a few minutes scanning those 12 pages. It was a just a quick
initial run of the scanner to learn how to operate it and save the images.
Once i get it all scanned, I will post a link to it.
--Devin
On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Antonio Carlini <a.carlini at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
On 12/03/16 00:30, devin davison wrote:
I made a trip to the library today and set up the
reader. Expensive nice
piece of equipment, however it is going to take a long time to scan it
all.
I am still uncertain as to weather this is the source or the compiler
output, as some people here suggested it may be.
I believe various intelligence and military customers could get source
distributions.
Those were not on fiche: they were on removable packs or tapes. These kits
were (AFAIK)
built on demand. Even those were not (again AFAIK) complete and almost
certainly would
not have included a build environment (i.e. all the procedures needed to
produce a build).
Such source kits were not cheap.
You don't have that. You have source listings.
Even with this full set,
is there not enough to build the entire system?
No
Was the full source ever
released?
Some source was but not to normal customers and I doubt that it was the
full source.
The plan is to scan it all and get it archived. The scanner
seems to be doing a good job. If anyone has other
microfiche that would go
well along with this set, and would be willing to mail them, I know how to
work the scanner now and can make a digital copy.
here are the first 12 pages i scanned off the first sheet.
Those are source listings: they are the output of the compiler.
The quality looks very good. If you have any manuals on fiche (FMPS etc.)
it would be interesting to see how those turn out.
Out of interest, how long did it take to produce those 12 pages?
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
12 Mar
12 Mar
11:04 a.m.
Can that scanner produce anything other
than massive .png files?
- J.
On 3/11/2016 9:12 PM, devin davison wrote:
Well, I have the scanner and the time, I am going to
put in online anyways.
It may not be the full source, but perhaps it will come in handy for
someone else.
I only spent a few minutes scanning those 12 pages. It was a just a quick
initial run of the scanner to learn how to operate it and save the images.
Once i get it all scanned, I will post a link to it.
--Devin
On Fri, Mar 1
11:11 a.m.
On 12/03/16 16:04, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Can that scanner produce anything other than massive .png files?
I wonder whether it can do B&W G4 encoded at something like 600dpi. That
should
cut the size down a bit and produce something that perhaps could then be
OCRd.
My recollection is that each page of fiche is something like 13x30
panels, so 300-400
images. At current size that would be 1GiB-ish per sheet of fiche. A
release must be in
the region of 400 sheets or more (I'm guessing, I've not counted mine
...) so 0.5TiB
per release.
It's probably worth experimenting a little, assuming the scanner has
suitable knobs that
can be twiddled...
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
11:42 a.m.
On Mar 12, 2016, at 11:38 AM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 3/12/16 8:11 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote:
I agree. Also, converting file formats is a straightforward post-processing exercise.
The important part is to capture the original data, and store it (using a LOSSLESS storage
format). The rest can be done by ad-hoc tools, or in many cases by standard image editing
tools like GIMP or Photoshop.
paul
It's probably worth experimenting a little
No, it's not.
I'm sorry, but file size matters squat compared to the time it's
going to take to scan them.
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