7 Jul
2011
7 Jul
'11
7:45 p.m.
While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer History
Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts donated for tax
write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an appraiser of classic computer
items? I think I'm a pretty good candidate given the time I've spent
selling the stuff on Ebay. Is this something I should run by a lawyer?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
7 Jul
7 Jul
7:58 p.m.
Actually who does appraise the value of goods when someone donates
them to a non-profit?
Of course I'm crazy enough to donate a small fortune in books to a
non-profit, and not claim a dime.
Zane
At 7:45 PM -0700 7/7/11, David Griffith wrote:
While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the
Computer
History Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts
donated for tax write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an
appraiser of classic computer items? I think I'm a pretty good
candidate given the time I've spent selling the stuff on Ebay. Is
this something I should run by a lawyer?
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
8 Jul
8 Jul
6:26 a.m.
It is your responsibility to appraise them yourself when you file your
taxes, just be sure you can back it up if you ever get audited.
The museum should provide a receipt of what was received, you will need
to declare the value in your own taxes separate from the receipt.
7 Jul
7 Jul
8:04 p.m.
While preparing the paperwork for some donations to
the Computer History
Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts donated for tax
write-off purposes. ?Who would qualify as an appraiser of classic computer
items? ?I think I'm a pretty good candidate given the time I've spent
selling the stuff on Ebay. ?Is this something I should run by a lawyer?
Someone in the business. Sellam, for example.
This field (and money) is so small that traditional appraisers are
really not an option.
--
Will
8:12 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
I'd doubt traditional appraisers would know where to begin with the stuff
we play with. I sent a private email to Sellam to see what he thinks.
I'm someone in the business, but I'm guessing the IRS wouldn't like it if
I did the appraisal for something I myself donated.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
While
preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer History
Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts donated for tax
write-off purposes. ?Who would qualify as an appraiser of classic computer
items? ?I think I'm a pretty good candidate given the time I've spent
selling the stuff on Ebay. ?Is this something I should run by a lawyer?
Someone in the business. Sellam, for example.
This field (and money) is so small that traditional appraisers are
really not an option. 
9:27 p.m.
>> I'm someone in the business
Selling stuff on eBay, unless it were your full-time documented job,
doesn't put you "in the business". Frankly, there is no "the
business"
of vintage computing. Other than a handful of professional museums and a
handful of kits/parts makers, how many people make their living from
vintage computing? Even with Sellam it's only part of his business in
addition to electronics recycling and consulting.
8 Jul
8 Jul
9:11 a.m.
In article <4E16871F.5070004 at snarc.net>,
Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> writes:
Right. However, paying attention to ebay gives you an understanding of
what the current market prices are for various things. I've spent enough
time looking at terminals that I believe I can state estimated values for
those kinds of things. I can also tell you what's offered for sale
commonly and what's offered for sale occasionally.
For instance, suppose I bought a classic muscle car for $1 from someone
who just wanted it out of their sight and didn't care about its value.
Does this mean its appraised value for donation purposes is $1? No.
Its market value is what people typically pay for such an item in its
condition. There's also the question of whether or not you claim the
current market value for something or its original purchase price in
current dollars. That's something you'd need to ask a tax accountant
or tax attorney about and is separate from the question of what is its
fair market value today.
>>
I'm someone in the business
Selling stuff on eBay, unless it were your full-time documented job,
doesn't put you "in the business". Frankly, there is no "the
business"
of vintage computing. Other than a handful of professional museums and a
handful of kits/parts makers, how many people make their living from
vintage computing? Even with Sellam it's only part of his business in
addition to electronics recycling and consulting.
I know four people who make their entire living from vintage computing,
and they're all subscribers to this list.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
9:26 a.m.
I know four people who make their entire living from
vintage computing,
and they're all subscribers to this list.
There actually is "a business" of vintage computing, now that the
market has matured. Long time members of this list has seen the market
grow up from nearly nothing to what it is now...which is still small
potatoes compared to the real antiques market. This is why there
probably is no need to really worry about getting any sort of
super-certified appraisal, unless there is an Apple 1 class donation
happening.
For the record, a majority of my yearly sales are not vintage
computing related, but nearly everything is vintage technology
related.
--
Will
3:42 p.m.
New subject: appraisals and IRS inexplicability
On Fri, 8 Jul 2011, Richard wrote:
Right. However, paying attention to ebay gives you an
understanding of
what the current market prices are for various things. I've spent enough
time looking at terminals that I believe I can state estimated values for
those kinds of things. I can also tell you what's offered for sale
commonly and what's offered for sale occasionally.
Which is a large part, but NOT the entire issue, for assigning value to
donations!
For instance, suppose I bought a classic muscle car
for $1 from someone
who just wanted it out of their sight and didn't care about its value.
Does this mean its appraised value for donation purposes is $1? No.
Actually, . .
.
Its market value is what people typically pay for such
an item in its
condition. There's also the question of whether or not you claim the
current market value for something or its original purchase price in
current dollars. That's something you'd need to ask a tax accountant
or tax attorney about and is separate from the question of what is its
fair market value today.
Another reason to ALSO need tax expertise!
It usta be, maybe or maybe not STILL, that if you bought something and
then donated it to a 501C3, that it would be valued at WHAT YOU PAID FOR
IT (such as your $1 muscle car, which is just what most non-profits
REALLY need), unless you had had it for over one year!
IF you had had it for over one year, THEN it would be valued at "fair
market value".
If you charge $100 per hour to do work in your field of expertise, and you
decide to do 8 hours of such work for a non-profit, . . .
Do you KNOW what amount your tax deduction would be?
Now go back and read carefully. I did NOT say what it "OUGHTA" be!
When it comes to counter-examples, I am well aware that many people have
put down numbers that were WRONG, inaccurate, not in compliance with the
details of the codes, or just plain BULLSHIT, and nevertheless, the IRS
may have failed to notice, ignored, or individual IRS staff being
incompetent or just not given a shit about the error. So, "I did that",
and even "I did that, and it survived an audit" don't mean shit when it
comes to IRS codes.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
9 Jul
9 Jul
7:57 a.m.
In article <4E17A6A2.6000307 at snarc.net>,
Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> writes:
> I know four people who make their entire living
from vintage computing, and
they're all subscribers to this list.
Well, there's Rich / Ian, both via Vulcan, but I think of them in the
same grouping as full-time museum professionals.
In my book, that counts as making your living from vintage computing.
If their museum was dedicated to farm implements and they did vintage
computing on their own time, I would not consider them to be making
their living from vintage computing.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
2:58 p.m.
Well,
there's Rich / Ian, both via Vulcan, but I think of them in the same grouping as
full-time museum professionals.
In my book, that counts as making your living from
vintage computing. 
3:50 p.m.
On Sat, 9 Jul 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote:
I'm not disagreeing. My point is that * other * than working in a
professional museum environment, I don't think it is possible to make one's
living from our hobby.
Unless of course your name is "wiredforservice" and you've got an
endless
supply of gullible suckers.
g.
--
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Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
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Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Well,
there's Rich / Ian, both via Vulcan, but I think of them in the same
grouping as full-time museum professionals.
In my book, that counts as making your
living from vintage computing.
7:36 p.m.
In article <4E18CF05.9020409 at snarc.net>,
Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> writes:
Will declares his scope as larger than just vintage computing, but in
my book he qualifies.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
>> Well, there's Rich / Ian, both via
Vulcan, but I think of them in the same
grouping as full-time museum
professionals.
In my book,
that counts as making your living from vintage computing.
I'm not disagreeing. My point is that * other * than working in a
professional museum environment, I don't think it is possible to make
one's living from our hobby.
10 Jul
10 Jul
2:43 p.m.
Will declares his scope as larger than just vintage
computing, but in
my book he qualifies.
I could (and think others could) make a living dealing in vintage
computing exclusively, but choose not to limit myself. There is no
sense to turning away money selling other old technology.
No shame - I will sell Hummels if I run into them.
--
Will
2:53 p.m.
On Sun, 10 Jul 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
I've done that too. No problem!
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Will declares
his scope as larger than just vintage computing, but in
my book he qualifies.
I could (and think others could) make a living dealing in vintage
computing exclusively, but choose not to limit myself. There is no
sense to turning away money selling other old technology.
No shame - I will sell Hummels if I run into them.
5:05 p.m.
Richard: I tried sending you a private reply but it bounced. Something
about your server doesn't like mine ...
8 Jul
8 Jul
9:07 a.m.
In article <CANij+dff8WzcFsW8G0KE1HZTudN=A7d12K3OKG=YG6U6DbDLAw at mail.gmail.com>,
William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
I'd put Will in that category, too :-).
I can appraise terminals and graphics stuff if anyone needs help.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
While
preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer History
Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts donated for tax
write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an appraiser of classic computer
items? I think I'm a pretty good candidate given the time I've spent
selling the stuff on Ebay. Is this something I should run by a lawyer?
Someone in the business. Sellam, for example. 
7 Jul
7 Jul
11:28 p.m.
On 07/07/2011 09:45 PM, David Griffith wrote:
While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer
History Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts
donated for tax write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an appraiser
of classic computer items? I think I'm a pretty good candidate given
the time I've spent selling the stuff on Ebay. Is this something I
should run by a lawyer?
David,
The 501(c)(3), in this case the CHM, should give you paper work that
describes the donation and the value of the donation. A few years back
the IRS issued rulings that said you could no longer just "claim"
donations. You have to have the paper work from the 501c3 org. I think
it was last year or year before that they started clamping down on the
501c3 groups to try and make sure the value of the donation is
"reasonable". There were some 501c3 where you would donate something
that might be worth $10 and they would say it was worth (your tax
rate)*$10 so you got closer to a full tax credit instead of a deduction.
I have never donated to the CHM so if the paper work says you have to
decide the value then I would suggest you use something reasonable.
200K for a VT105 would probably get you an interesting letter from the
IRS. If the total value is not that large I would not worry too much
about it. If you think the value is mega bucks, 10's to 100's of K then
best go find a good tax guy. There are more effective ways to get a
better tax write off and protect you from the IRS money grabbers.
--
Joe Chisolm
8 Jul
8 Jul
10:20 a.m.
On 7/7/11 11:28 PM, Joe Chisolm - Gmail wrote:
The 501(c)(3), in this case the CHM, should give you
paper work that describes the donation and the value of the donation.
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE
The IRS requires INDEPENDENT appraisals.
CHM does not, and CANNOT BY LAW, appraise donations it receives, and if asked will never
offer a guess as to any computing
artifact's value.
Sellam has a track record with them, and he has told me that they have never been
questioned by the IRS on an appraisal
that he has made.
5:57 p.m.
The 501(c)(3), in this case the CHM, should give
you paper work that
describes the donation and the value of the donation.
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE
The IRS requires INDEPENDENT appraisals.
CHM does not, and CANNOT BY LAW, appraise donations it receives 
7:20 a.m.
On 7/7/2011 10:45 PM, David Griffith wrote:
While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer
History Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts
donated for tax write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an appraiser
of classic computer items? I think I'm a pretty good candidate given
the time I've spent selling the stuff on Ebay. Is this something I
should run by a lawyer?
As Joe C. mentioned in his post, I think that if you use reasonable
values for things, and even better, have documentation showing a sale at
similar prices in any forum, you are likely safe.
As long as you are honest during the process, I don't think any auditor
is going to take issue with it. I can't imagine them saying that your
3b1 or whatever isn't worth what you claim. What would be their basis
for disagreement? Who are they going to hire to appraise it? And if they
do, your number will probably be in the ballpark. And especially if you
have SOMETHING that you relied on --- I doubt they are going to fault
your process. You didn't just pick the number randomly out of the air.
As Joe C said, if we are talking about big $$$, then find tax guy and/or
lawyer.
IMHO,
Keith
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23 comments
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participants (12)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
evan＠snarc.net -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jchisolm6＠gmail.com -
keithvz＠verizon.net -
legalize＠xmission.com -
nick.allen＠comcast.net -
pontus＠update.uu.se -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com