18 Jun
2012
18 Jun
'12
12:21 p.m.
Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works
well enough to install either linux/bsd in? Would like to be able to
compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an
intel macbook pro.
Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but
would like a unixy tool-chain.
18 Jun
18 Jun
12:55 p.m.
Boy, I'd love this too. It seems like the UAE and Atari people have partially
supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be
great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like a a live monitor.
Let us know what you find,
Ryan
On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote:
Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K
system that works
well enough to install either linux/bsd in? Would like to be able to
compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an
intel macbook pro.
Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but
would like a unixy tool-chain.
1:06 p.m.
Here's the Atari one: http://aranym.sourceforge.net/
On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Ryan Brooks wrote:
Boy, I'd love this too. It seems like the UAE
and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in
the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like
a a live monitor.
Let us know what you find,
Ryan
On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote:
Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola
68K system that works
well enough to install either linux/bsd in? Would like to be able to
compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an
intel macbook pro.
Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but
would like a unixy tool-chain.
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Dear friends,
Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
Thanks
Alexandre
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
2:10 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 06/18/2012 01:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice
design for a 68000
SBC for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
I found this design a few years ago and liked it, but haven't built
one yet:
http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/68k/68k.html
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:07 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 06/18/2012 01:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
? ? Dear friends,? ? ? Can anyone recommend a nice
design for a 68000
SBC for learning?
? ? I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
?You could just opt to poke around inside an Atari ST or early Mac. I had a stack of 68000
books, most donated or thrown out.
?Here's a good question. What's the ideal text for studying 68000 h/w and s/w.
Nothing I owned would I consider ideal. Dave's page looks decent, but it would be
great if there was a text that describe a rudimentary 68k system
?OTOH Alex, you could opt to build one of the Radio Electronics featured 68k systems. One
was explained in detail, but I think the originator wants big bucks for the firmware and
whatnot. There was also a mention of a project in the later 80s, mostly in Europe, where a
group designed a system from scratch. It would be nice to get my hooks on those details.
I've been wanting to build a vanilla box 68k system for a long time myself.
5:05 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
From: "Chris Tofu" <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 10:07 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 06/18/2012 01:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas
wrote:
Just the 68000 is fairly straight-forward in hardware design.
You need EPROM, RAM and a serial interface, and it would work.
There is one thing to consider: will you use 6800-style peripherals,
or 68000-style peripherals? 6821/6850 vs. 68230/68681 (IIRC).
Will you use VPA* or not. DTACK* is the only piece to work on.
Or make all peripherals fast enough so that you do not need DTACK*
I have built (long ago) a 68000 SBC for my StarShip.
I will search and mention the 2 books that help me get it done.
One of them has a complete monitor (source) code listing!
- Henk, PA8PDP
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a
nice design for a 68000
SBC for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
You could just opt to poke around inside an Atari ST or early Mac. I had
a stack of 68000 books, most donated or thrown out.
Here's a good question. What's the ideal text for studying 68000 h/w and
s/w. Nothing I owned would I consider ideal. Dave's page looks decent, but
it would be great if there was a text that describe a rudimentary 68k
system
OTOH Alex, you could opt to build one of the Radio Electronics featured
68k systems. One was explained in detail, but I think the originator wants
big bucks for the firmware and whatnot. There was also a mention of a
project in the later 80s, mostly in Europe, where a group designed a
system from scratch. It would be nice to get my hooks on those details.
I've been wanting to build a vanilla box 68k system for a long time
myself.
4:20 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
________________________________
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
? I found this design a few years ago and liked it, but haven't built
one yet:
? http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/68k/68k.html
? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
?C: I like it Dave. I genuinely do. I may be unorthodox in my approaches to things.
It's not that I don't like sbc's, love them in fact (God how I'd love to
either research or just get to look at someone else's research regarding the myriads
of 80186 sbc's that were created in the 80s). But as far as learning computers, I
don't necessarily see the benefit of a sbc (much less an sdk w/a keypad), as opposed
to an established system. I guess it could help to at least contrast a bare bones sbc? to
say a Mac or Atari. Generally texts seek to alleviate the complexity of a *full blown*
stand alone computer. But you can simply ignore what isn't relevant to a
beginner's learning level. As for assembly, just jump in and start writing some code.
Makes the most sense to me.
5:59 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 06/18/2012 04:20 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
I found this design a few years ago and liked it, but
haven't built
one yet:
http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/68k/68k.html
C: I like it Dave. I genuinely do. I may be unorthodox in my
approaches to things. It's not that I don't like sbc's, love them in
fact (God how I'd love to either research or just get to look at
someone else's research regarding the myriads of 80186 sbc's that
were created in the 80s). But as far as learning computers, I don't
necessarily see the benefit of a sbc (much less an sdk w/a keypad),
as opposed to an established system.
That all depends on what you want to learn. If you want to learn how
computers actually *work*, which (IMNSHO) is a requirement for being
able to program worth a damn, this is a good route...as long as it's not
just treated like an appliance.
An "established system" (by which I think you mean "a commercial
packaged/closed system") just plain denies a person that option, unless
you go dig up the schematics for it.
And in that case, say for an Atari or an Amiga, there are so many
complex custom chips in there, a beginner isn't going to get much of an
education out of it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
19 Jun
19 Jun
4:10 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
were created in the 80s). But as far as learning
computers, I don't
IMHO if you want to learn how computers really work you shouldn't be
using a microprocessor at all :-). The _real_ way to do it is to build
your own (simple) processor from TTL or similar (IMHO doing it in a FPGA
is significantly less educational), or almost as good is to get a machine
with such a processor (early 1970s mini...) and do battle with the
schematics and a 'scope/LA.
necessarily see the benefit of a sbc (much less
an sdk w/a keypad),
as opposed to an established system.
That all depends on what you want to learn. If you want to learn how
computers actually *work*, which (IMNSHO) is a requirement for being
able to program worth a damn, this is a good route...as long as it's not
just treated like an appliance.
An "established system" (by which I think you mean "a commercial
packaged/closed system") just plain denies a person that option, unless
you go dig up the schematics for it.
And in that case, say for an Atari or an Amiga, there are so many
complex custom chips in there, a beginner isn't going to get much of an
education out of it.
AFAIk the Mac hardware was never rully documetned. There may be
reverse-engineered schematics of some older Macs, but they all have
either custom chips or copy-protected PALs, so you can't get very far...
Maybe something like an HP9816 (or another 9000/200 amchine). If you
avoild the ones with the MMU (9817, 9826U, HP9836U, basically), there are
no PALs, it's all standard ICs. The 9816 is quite simple, acutally,
Torch XXX? There are PALs, but they're not copy-protected IIRC.
Any other candidates?
-tony
6:20 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Any other candidates?
Commercial systems?
- Apple II (fully documented)
- ZX 80 / ZX81 (without ULA, the brazilian TK82C/TK83/TK85 are this way)
- TRS-80 (any model, I'm thinking about building a model I just for fun)
- TRS-Color (strange motorola chips for me, but no PALs and custom
chips)
- TI99/4A (which uses a VERY strange chipset, but no PALs)
- Any MSX1 computer without MSX Engines (Brazilian MSX are done all with
TTL and VLSI chips, some japanese MSX too like my Canon V20)
There are lots of examples around :o)
20 Jun
20 Jun
4:12 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Any other candidates?
Commercial systems?
- Apple II (fully documented)
- ZX 80 / ZX81 (without ULA, the brazilian TK82C/TK83/TK85 are this way)
- TRS-80 (any model, I'm thinking about building a model I just for fun) - TRS-Color (strange motorola chips for me, but no
PALs and custom
chips)
The CoCo 3 has a custom IC (GIME) to replace the SAM and VDC chips. It
provides more screen modes (including 80*24 text) and a simple MMU.
- TI99/4A (which uses a VERY strange chipset, but
no PALs)
- Any MSX1 computer without MSX Engines (Brazilian MSX are done all with
TTL and VLSI chips, some japanese MSX too like my Canon V20)
There are lots of examples around :o)
But as the Subject: line indicates, I was specifically talking about
68000 machines. I include 68008, 68010, 68020, etc in that, of course.
But not other processors.
-tony
8:18 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Jun 19, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Most of the PALs in the original Mac weren't super-complex. The most
complex ones, as far as I can tell, are the DRAM controller and the
sound chip; the rest were just memory decoding. Of course, a PAL does
handle the somewhat complex 68000 bus logic, which I guess would be
the real magic behind a 68K board.
As for the address decoding PALs, they're fairly simple to guess
what the equations might be if you know the address map. I have
the hardcover Inside Macintosh 1/2/3 book, which has the address
maps for everything up through the SE, IIRC.
There is a somewhat reduced and difficult-to-read schematic of the
original Mac logic board at Andy Hertzfeld's folklore.org site:
http://folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/schematic.jpg
This was a one-page reduction used for service, so it's primarily
used for tracing out connections, but it looks fairly complete.
- Dave
An
"established system" (by which I think you mean "a commercial
packaged/closed system") just plain denies a person that option, unless
you go dig up the schematics for it.
And in that case, say for an Atari or an Amiga, there are so many
complex custom chips in there, a beginner isn't going to get much of an
education out of it.
AFAIk the Mac hardware was never rully documetned. There may be
reverse-engineered schematics of some older Macs, but they all have
either custom chips or copy-protected PALs, so you can't get very far... 
10:06 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 8:18 AM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
Of course, a PAL does
handle the somewhat complex 68000 bus logic, which I guess would be
the real magic behind a 68K board.
In a complex 68000 design, with 1980s-era memories that are slower
than bus speed for, say, a typical 8MHz CPU, or slower peripheral
chips (2MHz max 6821...), yes, the bus logic can be quite involved.
A new design with sub-100ns SRAM and 8MHz-capable peripheral chips
would be quite streamlined by comparison - if you weren't planning on
maxing out memory space for RAM and could just use A22-A23 to carve
out large swaths of address space for RAM, ROM, and I/O which would
avoid complex address decoding logic. It's a little more elaborate if
you want to have, say, 14MB of RAM space, 1MB of ROM space, and 1MB of
I/O space - that's when most designs turn to address-select PALs.
-ethan
11:51 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
I'm interested in building a low cost hobbyist friendly 68K SBC using recent parts.?
Something like the N8 project but using a 68K or later CPU.? I am thinking a non-bus based
system with 1MB SRAM and using a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD for
storage.
?
The whole thing would have to fit on a 60 square inch PCB to use the inexpensive PCB
prototyping service so that limits how much could go on the SBC.
?
Ideas?
?
Andrew Lynch
12:05 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Andrew Lynch <lynchaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm interested in building a low cost hobbyist
friendly 68K SBC using recent parts.? Something like the N8 project but using a 68K or
later CPU.? I am thinking a non-bus based system with 1MB SRAM and using a Propeller for
VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD for storage.
The whole thing would have to fit on a 60 square inch PCB to use the inexpensive PCB
prototyping service so that limits how much could go on the SBC.
Ideas?
Andrew Lynch
Anyone considering the minimg Amiga
"clone"/"reimplementation"/"FPGA
simulator"? I'm fairly certain there are non-amiga FPGA images for it
already - after all it's just a 68k, RAM, some IO, all with just a fat
FPGA in the middle (and a PIC to load it and interface the SD card).
Seems to me it would be a great platform to try 68k interfacing.
Joe.
--
Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org
2:02 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 6/20/2012 12:05 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote:
Anyone considering the minimg Amiga
"clone"/"reimplementation"/"FPGA
simulator"? I'm fairly certain there are non-amiga FPGA images for
it already - after all it's just a 68k, RAM, some IO, all with just a
fat FPGA in the middle (and a PIC to load it and interface the SD
card).
Seems to me it would be a great platform to try 68k interfacing.
Joe.
I own a minimig with an upgraded ARM processor. It has a 68k onboard,
and of course the fpga for reproducing the custom chips.
I will buy an FPGA arcade replay as soon as they are released. I'm on
the pre-release list.
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/
I will probably also buy this
http://mcc-home.com/
I've been trading emails with one of their primary hardware HDL
developer guys who are more or less modifying the minimig core and
adapting the 68k softcore to fit their hardware. They use an 16k
altera, and it's pretty impressive that they are fitting everything.....
Very cool stuff. Definitely gets my rocks off.
Keith
P.S. I also have a couple home-brew fpga based amiga-based hardware
projects that I'm working on for myself.
8:41 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
I like the idea of the TRS80 Model 16. (part of the model 2/12/15 family
of 8" drive based machines)
Unlike model 1/3/4, which have LOTS of reverse engineering and stuff
written, the model 2 TRS-DOS is very UNDER-documented. (Talk to Eric!)
But, the Z80 side of it (model 2) will run CP/M, and has several different
implementations, including Lifeboat, Pickles & Trout, etc.
TRS80 was not well respected. I gravely offended an acquaintance by
asking him to compare his new Cromemco Z80/68000 system to the TRS80-16.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
9:11 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 20 Jun 2012 at 17:41, Fred Cisin wrote:
I like the idea of the TRS80 Model 16. (part of the
model 2/12/15
family of 8" drive based machines)
If 8" floppy drives scare you, it's very easy to set these up with
5.25" HD or 3.5" HD drives.
And C compilers and 68K assemblers are available for these systems.
It's actually pretty cool--you boot CP/M 2.2 on it just as you would
a model II and then switch over to CP/M 68K if you desire.
Xenix is also available for these boxes, but a hard disk is pretty
much mandatory for that.
--Chuck
10:41 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Fred Cisin wrote:
I like the idea of the TRS80 Model 16. (part of the
model 2/12/15 family
of 8" drive based machines)
The family consisted of the Z80 only models II and 12, and the Z80/68000
models 16, 16B, and 6000.
Unlike model 1/3/4, which have LOTS of reverse
engineering and stuff
written, the model 2 TRS-DOS is very UNDER-documented. (Talk to Eric!)
I recently spent some time reverse-engineering multiple versions of the
boot ROMs and portions of TRSDOS 1.2 and 2.0. (Note that Model II
TRSDOS is quite different than the more well-known Model I and Model
III/4 TRSDOS, although there are similarities.)
Not to disparage anyone else's efforts, but when I say
"reverse-engineering", I do NOT mean that I just ran it through a
disassembler and sprinkled in a few labels and comments. I mean that I
turned it into something that can plausibly be considered to be source
code. This is, of course, a lot more work.
TRS80 was not well respected. I gravely offended an
acquaintance by
asking him to compare his new Cromemco Z80/68000 system to the TRS80-16.
The Model II family hardware was in most regards better engineered than
the Model I/III/4 consumer-grade machines.
In the 16/16B/6000 systems, it was perhaps somewhat of an advantage to
have a Z80 to serve as the I/O processor (although TRSDOS-16 failed to
overlap any processing), but it was also somewhat of a disadvantage in
that the 68000 could not access I/O devices directly at all, even in
cases where that might have improved performance. Another problem was
that the 68000 subsystem was designed to be able to interrupt the Z80 to
request service, but because this only worked in machines sold as the
Model 16/16B/6000, and not in upgraded Model II/12 machines, the
software generally was not able to take advantage of it. On the other
hand, the Z80 could generate interrupts to the 68000 on all machines.
There were three generations of 68000 subsystems in these machines.
Originally there was the "long card" version, which ran at 6 MHz. This
was replace with a "short card", and then with a higher performance
card. They are not 100% software compatible, alas, so there are
limitations on what version of Xenix runs on what card.
11:50 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 20 Jun 2012 at 19:41, Eric Smith wrote:
In the 16/16B/6000 systems, it was perhaps somewhat of
an advantage to
have a Z80 to serve as the I/O processor (although TRSDOS-16 failed to
overlap any processing), but it was also somewhat of a disadvantage in
that the 68000 could not access I/O devices directly at all, even in
cases where that might have improved performance. Another problem was
that the 68000 subsystem was designed to be able to interrupt the Z80
to request service, but because this only worked in machines sold as
the Model 16/16B/6000, and not in upgraded Model II/12 machines, the
software generally was not able to take advantage of it. On the other
hand, the Z80 could generate interrupts to the 68000 on all machines.
When we were working on our 80186-80286 box and were writing the I/O
routines for Xenix, I recall going up to Bellevue and being presented
with a listing (we used green-bar tractor-feed paper for everything
back then) for the I/O system for the Model 16 Xenix to use as a
model.
Given the I/O devices that the Model 16 was working with, the Z80 was
probably quite adequate to the task. Speaking from my own
experience, it really does make implementation of a protected-mode
operating system simpler when all you have to do is pass messages to
an I/O processor.
--Chuck
21 Jun
21 Jun
12:06 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 6/20/12 8:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
it really does make implementation of a
protected-mode
operating system simpler when all you have to do is pass messages to
an I/O processor.
One of the weirder systems I used was a Colex VME 68000 running Unisoft System V.
Colex started out building VME MSDOS systems, and the way they got in the Unix
workstation market was they just designed a 68000/68451 board with local memory
and glued it into their MSDOS box with the 80186 doing all the I/O. I still have
all the code for the MSDOS side (all 8086 assembler).
Colex went under around 1985 and were up in Foster City.
I remember going up there to buying a half a dozen of the things cheap (like $200
a box, which was really cheap for a 68K Unix system in 1985..)
to use as 68000 development systems for the AED graphics board set we were designing.
1:39 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
I like the idea of the TRS80 Model 16. (part of the model 2/12/15 family
of 8" drive based machines)
Unlike model 1/3/4, which have LOTS of reverse engineering and stuff
written, the model 2 TRS-DOS is very UNDER-documented. (Talk to Eric!)
Unfortunately, althoguh I am somethign of a TRS-80 enthusiast (having
started with a Mdoel 1 way back when) I've not obtained any of the
2/12/16 machines -- yet!
I assume there ws a service amnaul available, since there seems to have
been one for every otehr Radio Shack product (even pocket radios,
cassette recorders, etc). There was most likely a technical refernce
manaul too, since there was oen for the other computers. Do these still
exist anywhere?
But, the Z80 side of it (model 2) will run CP/M, and has several different
implementations, including Lifeboat, Pickles & Trout, etc.
TRS80 was not well respected. I gravely offended an acquaintance by
And given my expeiriences I've never understood why not. My M1/3/4 and
CoCo machiens ahve been pretty reliable.
-tony
2:48 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 21 Jun 2012 at 18:39, Tony Duell wrote:
Mostly because of Tandy's terrible *mechanical* engineering. In the
16, the enclosure is flimsy, getting access to the cards will rip
your fingers to shreds, there are no guides on the card cage and
cooling design seems like an afterthought. Perhaps my expectations
for a $5000 (minimum system configuration) computer were unrealistic.
And don't get me started on the quality of Tandon engineering (the
Model 16 uses two TM848 drives).
--Chuck
I assume there ws a service amnaul available, since
there seems to
have been one for every otehr Radio Shack product (even pocket radios,
cassette recorders, etc). There was most likely a technical refernce
manaul too, since there was oen for the other computers. Do these
still exist anywhere?
There's some on the web, certainly. Enough to work on the system.
TRS80 was not
well respected. I gravely offended an acquaintance by
And given my expeiriences I've never understood why not. My M1/3/4 and
CoCo machiens ahve been pretty reliable.
7:47 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Chuck Guzis wrote:
And don't get me started on the quality of Tandon
engineering (the
Model 16 uses two TM848 drives).
Speaking of which, how do you remove them from a Model 16? The screws
on the top side are easy enough to get to, but what about the bottom?
8:15 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 21 Jun 2012 at 16:47, Eric Smith wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've had them out on a couple of occasions--once to replace a failed
+12V regulator, the other to replace the electrolytic and fuse on the
same line, but on the other drive--and I don't recall it being a big
deal. About all I remember is that both drives come out as a unit.
If you're really flummoxed, I can go take a look.
--Chuck
And don't get me started on the quality of
Tandon engineering (the
Model 16 uses two TM848 drives).
Speaking of which, how do you remove them from a Model 16? The screws
on the top side are easy enough to get to, but what about the bottom?
22 Jun
22 Jun
8:13 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
I wrote:
Speaking of which, how do you remove them from a Model
16? The screws
on the top side are easy enough to get to, but what about the bottom?
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've had them out on a couple of occasions--once
to replace a failed
+12V regulator, the other to replace the electrolytic and fuse on the
same line, but on the other drive--and I don't recall it being a big
deal. About all I remember is that both drives come out as a unit. If
you're really flummoxed, I can go take a look.
I'm fairly flummoxed. I'm not very mechanically inclined, so it's not
obvious to me how to get them out. I did find one bracket that seemed
to be holding the metal plate under the drive down to the bottom of the
case, and removed it, but it didn't seem to help, so there must still be
something else holding it.
Thanks!
Eric
21 Jun
21 Jun
5:36 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
I assume there ws a service amnaul [Model 2/12/16]
available, since
there seems to have
been one for every otehr Radio Shack product (even pocket radios,
cassette recorders, etc). There was most likely a technical refernce
manaul too, since there was oen for the other computers. Do these still
exist anywhere?
There definitely WAS one. (The Oakland RS "Computer Center" gave me one
after I bailed them out on interfacing a Votrax).
I have not seen it since I moved my office. Perhaps I gave it to Eric?
Or put it somewhere where I can't lose it?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
22 Jun
22 Jun
2:44 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
[TRS-80 Model 16 TechRef]
There definitely WAS one. (The Oakland RS
"Computer Center" gave me one
after I bailed them out on interfacing a Votrax).
I have not seen it since I moved my office. Perhaps I gave it to Eric?
Or put it somewhere where I can't lose it?
At lest you rememrbr you once had it. I've been tidying up a corner of my
workshop and have found quite a few books I'd forgeotten I ever had. Like
100-year-old books on telephones. Like the technical and service manuals
for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Like an original (not the fairly
recent reprint) Radiotron Designers Handbook. And so on...
-tony
3:25 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 22 Jun 2012 at 19:44, Tony Duell wrote:
At lest you rememrbr you once had it. I've been
tidying up a corner of
my workshop and have found quite a few books I'd forgeotten I ever
had. Like 100-year-old books on telephones. Like the technical and
service manuals for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Like an original
(not the fairly recent reprint) Radiotron Designers Handbook. And so
on...
For what it's worth, archive.org now has the Model 16 service manual
online:
http://archive.org/download/trs80_model_16_service_manual/trs80_model_
16_service_manual.pdf
Includes schematics for the 68K CPU boards.
--Chuck
3:33 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Page not avaiable here :(
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 22 Jun 2012 at 19:44, Tony Duell wrote:
At lest you rememrbr you once had it. I've
been tidying up a corner of
my workshop and have found quite a few books I'd forgeotten I ever
had. Like 100-year-old books on telephones. Like the technical and
service manuals for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Like an original
(not the fairly recent reprint) Radiotron Designers Handbook. And so
on...
For what it's worth, archive.org now has the Model 16 service manual
online:
http://archive.org/download/trs80_model_16_service_manual/trs80_model_
16_service_manual.pdf
Includes schematics for the 68K CPU boards.
--Chuck
7:09 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 22 Jun 2012 at 16:33, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Page not avaiable here :(
Just go to archive.org and enter "TRS-80 Model 16" into the search
box. The manual should be the first hit.
--Chuck
3:33 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
> There definitely WAS one. (The Oakland RS
"Computer Center" gave me one
> after I bailed them out on interfacing a Votrax).
> I have not seen it since I moved my office. Perhaps I gave it to Eric?
> Or put it somewhere where I can't lose it?
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012, Tony Duell
wrote:
[TRS-80 Model 16 TechRef]
Almost! Model TWO Techref.
although things like the RS proprietary pinouts probably match.
At lest you rememrbr you once had it. I've been
tidying up a corner of my
workshop and have found quite a few books I'd forgeotten I ever had. Like
100-year-old books on telephones. Like the technical and service manuals
for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Like an original (not the fairly
recent reprint) Radiotron Designers Handbook. And so on...
Yes. But, with more than three short-notice moves (what did Ben Franklin
say?), I have suddenly lost my ability to remember where anything is, and
I had always relied on that in lieu of any serious system of organization.
I have a jammed full office at the college that I will need to vacate
within the next year. Most of it is boxed from the previous moves, but I
really should start parting with almost all of it.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
20 Jun
20 Jun
5:01 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Most of the PALs in the original Mac weren't
super-complex. The most
complex ones, as far as I can tell, are the DRAM controller and the
sound chip; the rest were just memory decoding. Of course, a PAL does
handle the somewhat complex 68000 bus logic, which I guess would be
the real magic behind a 68K board.
No, it's not hard to work them out -- mostly. But if you are trying to
learn about the 68000, it helps if you don't have to do guesswork on the
way ;)-)
[...]
There is a somewhat reduced and difficult-to-read
schematic of the
original Mac logic board at Andy Hertzfeld's folklore.org site:
http://folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/schematic.jpg
This was a one-page reduction used for service, so it's primarily
used for tracing out connections, but it looks fairly complete.
I haev my own compelte scheamtics of the Mac+ (both boards, keyboard,
mouse, disk drive), but of course nothing definite on the PALs.
I have thoguth of a fully-documetned 68000 board. The Sage II. It's a
single board, sitting on top of disk drives and PSU. It's all standard
ICs (TTL and normal I/O devices), _all_ of which are in sockets. And
there's a schematic in the user manual. The onyl problem is finding such
a machine.
-tony
21 Jun
21 Jun
1:54 a.m.
New subject: Mac PALs (was: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft)
Tony Duell wrote on Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:01:06 +0100 (BST)
I haev my own compelte scheamtics of the Mac+ (both
boards, keyboard,
mouse, disk drive), but of course nothing definite on the PALs.
Back in 2005 someone posted the sources for all the PALs, I looked at
them, but didn't save a local copy. A quick search only showed the
source for the TSM (timing state machine) circuit in
I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987 that was better
(27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of
the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with my
design, however).
Speaking of missing documentation, I also built 3 machines with the
68000 and 2 with the 68020 but didn't keep any of the documentation
(other than pictures of two of them). I am not sure building something
like that today is such an interesting project. If you do it in
wirewrap, then having everything 16 (or 32) bits wide can get very
tiring. You could go with the 68008 to deal with this, but a 6809
machine would be almost as fast and the components would be easier to
find.
-- Jecel
p.s,: here are the PAL equations copied from the thread I mentioned
above (in case people have problems getting to it in the future):
16MBUF C16M 8M MU RAMEN ROMEN AS UDS LDS GND
TSEN CAS0 CAS1 RAS TC 1M 4M 2M DTACK VCC
RAS: = /4M * /RAS +
8M* 4m * /RAS +
/8M * 4M * /2M * /RAS +
8M * /4M * 1M * RAS +
8M * /4M * /1M * 2M * RAS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * LDS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * UDS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * /LDS * /UDS * /CAS0 +
TC:= 8M+
/4M +
2M +
/1M +
RAS
1M: = /8M * 4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS +
/1M * 8M * /4M * /RAS +
/1M * /8M * 4M * 2M * /RAS +
/1M * RAS +
/1M * /8M * /4M * /RAS +
/1M * 8M * 4M * /RAS
4M: = 1M * RAS +
8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * 2M +
/8M * /4M * /1M * RAS +
8M * /4M * 2M * /1M * RAS +
/8M * 4M * /2M * /RAS +
there may be a line missing here.....
2M: = /C16M * /8M * /4M * /RAS+
/2M + /8M + /4M +
/2M + /1M + * /TC +
C16M * /2M +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * /1M * RAS * /ROMEN * /RAMEN * /AS +
/2M * 4M +
/2M * 8M * /4M *1M * MU
DTACK:= /C16M * /8M * /4M * /RAS * /AS * /ROMEN * RAMEN +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * /1M * /RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * ROMEN +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * 1M * /RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /MU +
/C16M * /8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * /ROMEN +
/DTACK * /UDS +
/DATACK * /LDS +
/DATACK * /RAS
CAS0: = 4M * /2M * /RAS * /DTACK * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /LDS * MU +
4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS * MU +
/CAS0 + /RAS +
8M + 4M + /2M * /1M * RAS * /DTACK +
/CAS0 * /2M + /1M
CAS1: = 4M * /2M * /RAS * /DTACK * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /UDS * MU +
4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS * MU +
/CAS1 + /RAS
9:44 a.m.
New subject: Mac PALs (was: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft)
/me bows to Jecel :oD
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." <jecel at merlintec.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 2:54 AM
Subject: Mac PALs (was: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft)
Tony Duell wrote on Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:01:06 +0100
(BST)
I haev my own compelte scheamtics of the Mac+
(both boards, keyboard,
mouse, disk drive), but of course nothing definite on the PALs.
Back in 2005 someone posted the sources for all the PALs, I looked at
them, but didn't save a local copy. A quick search only showed the
source for the TSM (timing state machine) circuit in
I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987 that was better
(27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of
the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with my
design, however).
Speaking of missing documentation, I also built 3 machines with the
68000 and 2 with the 68020 but didn't keep any of the documentation
(other than pictures of two of them). I am not sure building something
like that today is such an interesting project. If you do it in
wirewrap, then having everything 16 (or 32) bits wide can get very
tiring. You could go with the 68008 to deal with this, but a 6809
machine would be almost as fast and the components would be easier to
find.
-- Jecel
p.s,: here are the PAL equations copied from the thread I mentioned
above (in case people have problems getting to it in the future):
16MBUF C16M 8M MU RAMEN ROMEN AS UDS LDS GND
TSEN CAS0 CAS1 RAS TC 1M 4M 2M DTACK VCC
RAS: = /4M * /RAS +
8M* 4m * /RAS +
/8M * 4M * /2M * /RAS +
8M * /4M * 1M * RAS +
8M * /4M * /1M * 2M * RAS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * LDS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * UDS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * /LDS * /UDS * /CAS0 +
TC:= 8M+
/4M +
2M +
/1M +
RAS
1M: = /8M * 4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS +
/1M * 8M * /4M * /RAS +
/1M * /8M * 4M * 2M * /RAS +
/1M * RAS +
/1M * /8M * /4M * /RAS +
/1M * 8M * 4M * /RAS
4M: = 1M * RAS +
8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * 2M +
/8M * /4M * /1M * RAS +
8M * /4M * 2M * /1M * RAS +
/8M * 4M * /2M * /RAS +
there may be a line missing here.....
2M: = /C16M * /8M * /4M * /RAS+
/2M + /8M + /4M +
/2M + /1M + * /TC +
C16M * /2M +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * /1M * RAS * /ROMEN * /RAMEN * /AS +
/2M * 4M +
/2M * 8M * /4M *1M * MU
DTACK:= /C16M * /8M * /4M * /RAS * /AS * /ROMEN * RAMEN +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * /1M * /RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * ROMEN +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * 1M * /RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /MU +
/C16M * /8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * /ROMEN +
/DTACK * /UDS +
/DATACK * /LDS +
/DATACK * /RAS
CAS0: = 4M * /2M * /RAS * /DTACK * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /LDS * MU +
4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS * MU +
/CAS0 + /RAS +
8M + 4M + /2M * /1M * RAS * /DTACK +
/CAS0 * /2M + /1M
CAS1: = 4M * /2M * /RAS * /DTACK * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /UDS * MU +
4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS * MU +
/CAS1 + /RAS
3:20 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987
that was better
(27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of
the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with
my design, however).
I'd be interested in trying them if you can read them and post the JEDEC
files as some point. I suspect probably a few other people would be
interested as well.
Best regards,
Eric
3:52 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
On Jun 21, 2012, at 3:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
I know I would, mostly from a historical perspective. JEDEC fuse
maps are pretty easy to turn back into equations.
- Dave
I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in
1987 that was better (27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a
copy of the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with my design,
however).
I'd be interested in trying them if you can read them and post the JEDEC files as
some point. I suspect probably a few other people would be interested as well.
7:46 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
David Riley wrote on Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:52:27 -0400
On Jun 21, 2012, at 3:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Here is a picture of the motherboard:
http://www.merlintec.com/download/mac_unitron_motherboard.jpg
The video had died and I guessed that it was the CRT so I swapped it
with the one on a Mac Plus. They weren't 100% mechanically compatible,
but fortunately the Unitron chassis had been designed for the original
CRT and had an adaptor to use the slightly different tube (the phosphor
is a little different too). That didn't do anything, so I swapped the
analog boards too and then it worked.
Anyway, I can't quite read what is on the PALs but it seems they are
Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
I know I would, mostly from a historical perspective. JEDEC fuse
maps are pretty easy to turn back into equations. I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in
1987 that was better
(27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of
the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with
my design, however).
I'd be interested in trying them if you can read them and post the JEDEC
files as some point. I suspect probably a few other people would be
interested as well. 
from MMI and "Made in Singapore". This makes
it more likely that the
Unitron would have burned the security fuses so the chips
can't be read
in a PAL programmer. On the machine I worked with them had Lattice GALs
instead and while those can also be protected they were less likely to
do so.
Of course, the only way to know is to try. I don't have a PAL programmer
handy and wouldn't like to open up the machine again without a good
reason, but it would certainly be worth doing it if I could fix the
original analog board and restore the original components to the
machine. So this isn't something I will do right now, but it might
happen by the end of this year.
I did find the very first draft of my design (it had been forgotten in a
drawer for over a decade, which is why I didn't turn it over to Unitron
like I did all other material. The big change was that Apple's design
uses 4 clock cycles for each memory access and mine uses 2. This ended
up making all the state machines smaller and more uniform.
Ah, someone gathered a bit of this information on this page:
-- Jecel
8:15 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
Of course, the only way to know is to try. I don't
have a PAL programmer
handy and wouldn't like to open up the machine again without a good
reason, but it would certainly be worth doing it if I could fix the
original analog board and restore the original components to the
machine. So this isn't something I will do right now, but it might
happen by the end of this year.
I did it on mine, all pals are protected :o(
22 Jun
22 Jun
5:28 a.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I did it on mine, all pals are protected :o(
If it's a normal production Mac, they're most likely HAL parts rather
than PAL, which means that they're mask-programmed and probably don't
support the readback mode at all. I'd be a little worried that trying
to read a HAL in a PAL programmer might damage the HAL.
If I had a spare original Mac logic board handy, or Mac Plus, I'd be
tempted to decap the HALs. It should be easy to extract the content
optically. Probably true for original PALs also, but not for the later
electrically erasable ones.
2:54 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I am pretty sure som, if not all, of the logic array chips in my Mac+ are
HALs.
I did it on mine, all pals are protected :o(
If it's a normal production Mac, they're most likely HAL parts rather than PAL, which means that they're mask-programmed
and probably don't
support the readback mode at all. I'd be a little worried that trying
to read a HAL in a PAL programmer might damage the HAL.
My (limited) experience is that attempting to read an MMI HAL as an MMI
PAL does no damage, but you don't get anything useful (it's either all 0s
or all 1s, I forget). It's like reading a copy-protected PAL. Whether it
was possible to order a HAL that could be read out I don't know.
-tony
5:26 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
Eric Smith wrote:
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I think that Alexandre meant by "mine" a Unitron clone rather than an
original Apple Mac.
Wouter wrote:
I did it on mine, all pals are protected :o(
If it's a normal production Mac, they're most likely HAL parts [...] Kryten saved some of what you posted, but his website
also is no more. I
sifted through archives, everything I could find as well as my own musings
are up on
http://www.retro.co.za/ccc/mac/ReverseEngineering/PALs.html
Thanks! My original pages were eliminated in 2009, but I have a mirror:
http://www.merlintec.com/lsi/mac512.html
When I fixed a broken link to this on a Wikipedia page (a Talk page, not
even an article) I got banned for life for "spamming". Which is funny
since you can't get from the mirror to the main site without manually
editing the URL.
In the original 2005 discussion, I remember someone saying they had
obtained a copy of all the PALs from Apple as part of a maintenance
contract back in 1985 or so. And then he published the sources (or
mailed them in private to someone else who then published them). I can't
find any trace of that now. Like I said before, I looked at all this
material but didn't make a copy of it.
Let's hope you didn't blow the fuses -- if you
can, read them and post the
results?
I didn't program the PALs, the Unitron people did. And if they protected
the ones in the machine that Alexandre has, it is almost certain to be
the case for the one I have as well.
On a related issue, one of the owners of Unitron has claimed in two
separate interviews that they had 300 machines in a warehouse. I really,
really doubt this (though 300 cases instead of whole machines might be
possible). When I turned in my design to Unitron in late 1987, Alberto
told me "We tried your equations on all the machines we have and out of
the 30 about half didn't have sound". The project was killed in practice
soon after that and I doubt that they built more than a couple of extra
machines as part of the Mac 1024 project. But there are some people out
there waiting for those 300 clones to turn up some day...
-- Jecel
5:58 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:26:10 -0300, I wrote:
On a related issue, one of the owners of Unitron has
claimed in two
separate interviews that they had 300 machines in a warehouse. I really,
really doubt this (though 300 cases instead of whole machines might be
possible). When I turned in my design to Unitron in late 1987, Alberto
told me "We tried your equations on all the machines we have and out of
the 30 about half didn't have sound".
But in 1995 I had written (http://www.merlintec.com/lsi/mac512.html):
[...] they had modified some 15 machines and half of
them were having
problems with sound [...]
I'll trust my 1995 memory of the event more than my 2012 memory ;-)
At least "15" and "half" appear in both versions, if not exactly in
the
same way.
-- Jecel
21 Jun
21 Jun
5:11 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
On 21 Jun 2012 at 12:20, Eric Smith wrote:
I'd be interested in trying them if you can read
them and post the
JEDEC files as some point. I suspect probably a few other people
would be interested as well.
Did Apple ever publish any information on their custom LSI on the
Power Mac series? IMOHO, that's what makes these machines
essentially throwaway for anything but trivial problems. You've got
these big quad flatpacks with Apple house numbers and no clue
whatsoever what's in them.
But maybe that's the idea--toss and get a new one if the old one
doesn't work. I wonder how many Macs ended up in the landfill
because of a dead PRAM battery...
--Chuck
5:22 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
On Jun 21, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 21 Jun 2012 at 12:20, Eric Smith wrote:
In a way, yes, but no one else was making chipsets for 68K or PPC
machines (or if they were, they were using their own custom logic,
too). In the PC world, the market was big enough to sustain lots
of chipset vendors (though only VIA seems to have survived, and
I think SIS did in name only), but it's not like IBM was using
commodity chipsets for RS6000 machines.
Of course, Apple is still using a fair amount of custom logic for
its chipsets, last I checked.
As far as info on the custom LSI, I get the impression that info
is available for some of the chipsets in developer tech notes that
were shipped on the developer program CDs. I'd love to see some
of those, but I've never come across a source (and I suspect it
wouldn't be strictly legal to distribute). The brief overview
tech note on machines like the 9500 mentions the existence of
such documentation, but it's unclear how detailed that might be.
I'd be interested in trying them if you can
read them and post the
JEDEC files as some point. I suspect probably a few other people
would be interested as well.
Did Apple ever publish any information on their custom LSI on the
Power Mac series? IMOHO, that's what makes these machines
essentially throwaway for anything but trivial problems. You've got
these big quad flatpacks with Apple house numbers and no clue
whatsoever what's in them. But maybe that's the idea--toss and get a new one
if the old one
doesn't work. I wonder how many Macs ended up in the landfill
because of a dead PRAM battery...
I dunno. I think it was more or less necessary once you passed
the complexity of an original 68000 if you wanted to keep the
machine small enough to fit on a desktop. It does make them
more or less disposable in a way, but I've never found an old
Mac logic board where chipset failure was the problem unless
an exploded PRAM battery had corroded it off.
- Dave
5:38 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
On 6/21/12 2:22 PM, David Riley wrote:
As far as info on the custom LSI, I get the impression
that info
is available for some of the chipsets in developer tech notes that
were shipped on the developer program CDs. I'd love to see some
of those, but I've never come across a source (and I suspect it
wouldn't be strictly legal to distribute). The brief overview
tech note on machines like the 9500 mentions the existence of
such documentation, but it's unclear how detailed that might be.
A fair bit is in the developer information for the CHRP platform,
and in the sources for Darwin, the BSDs, and Linux. A lot of work
has been going on with the Mac driver in MESS also, esp on how the
floppy interfaces work.
Something like an 030 LC class machine wouldn't be that hard to run
down to the bare metal, given that you could bootstrap it in MESS, and
they used 40 pin ROMs instead of ROM SIMMs.
5:25 p.m.
New subject: Mac PALs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Mac PALs
Did Apple ever publish any information on their custom
LSI on the
Power Mac series? IMOHO, that's what makes these machines
essentially throwaway for anything but trivial problems. You've got
these big quad flatpacks with Apple house numbers and no clue
whatsoever what's in them.
--Chuck
Well the clones came about when the PPC line was around, so Apple must have
given the specs for the chips out to Supermac, Radius, etc so they could
build their own board designs..
19 Jun
19 Jun
6:06 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
And in that case, say for an Atari or an Amiga, there
are so many
complex custom chips in there, a beginner isn't going to get much of an
education out of it.
I do agree with Dave. I have some "ready to run systems" like an Amiga,
or a Genesis/Mega Drive, or a mac. But the fun is to understand how it works
AND build it. I have not much use for a 68000 system, nor its assembly, but
I just want to learn :o)
3:44 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 06/18/2012 01:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
The second editon of the Student Manual for the Art of Electronics (or
whatever the exact title is) has a set of experiments which get you to
construct a very simple 68008-based device. The book describes making it
on solderless breadboards, but obviously you could solder or wire-wrap it
if you prefer.
It's probably not a bad starting poitn if you've never built a computer
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a
nice design for a 68000
SBC for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
I found this design a few years ago and liked it, but haven't built
one yet:
http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/68k/68k.html from scratch before.
-tony
6:21 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
The second editon of the Student Manual for the Art of
Electronics (or
whatever the exact title is) has a set of experiments which get you to
construct a very simple 68008-based device. The book describes making it
on solderless breadboards, but obviously you could solder or wire-wrap it
if you prefer.
It's probably not a bad starting poitn if you've never built a computer
from scratch before.
I still wasn't able to find this book at a fair price in Brazil. As soon
as I have some free money I'll get the art of electronics and the student
manual from USA :oP
18 Jun
18 Jun
4:05 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 6/18/2012 10:17 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000
SBC for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
These are really cool if you can find one
http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/mecb/mecb.htm
5:56 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:05 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
These are really cool if you can find one
http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/mecb/mecb.htm
I have a couple of those, along with a copy of this book to go along with them:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0138121818/
68000 Microcomputer Experiments: Using the Motorola Educational Computer Board
8:30 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
The Art of Electronics (Horowiz and Hill) has a 68008 design with lots of explanation, I
recall it being a very good intro to 68k stuff. And it's a good book anyway.
-Ryan
On Jun 18, 2012, at 4:56 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:05 PM, mc68010 <mc68010
at gmail.com> wrote:
These are really cool if you can find one
http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/mecb/mecb.htm
I have a couple of those, along with a copy of this book to go along with them:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0138121818/
68000 Microcomputer Experiments: Using the Motorola Educational Computer Board
19 Jun
19 Jun
6:04 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
I have a couple of those, along with a copy of this
book to go along with
them:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0138121818/
68000 Microcomputer Experiments: Using the Motorola Educational Computer
Board
Glen always have the nicest toys :)
18 Jun
18 Jun
7:28 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Hi,
At the N8VEM home brew computing project there is the ECB mini-68000.
Several builders have these systems and they are inexpensive and easy to
build. There are PCBs still available.
http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=ECB%20mini…
00
Thanks and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
PS, the S-100 68K CPU board will be coming out later this summer as well
after three rounds of prototypes.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 1:18 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Dear friends,
Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
Thanks
Alexandre
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
9:41 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas <
pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC
for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
A very popular book to read
68000 Microcomputer Systems: Designing, and Troubleshooting, Alan Wilcox,
Prentice Hall, 1987, ISBN 0138113998
Another source of simple 68K SBC's to experiment with is an arcade board by
Bally Midway, part#A080-91864-C000. I use two of them here. It has 128KW
Eprom space, up to 4KW Ram space. They are inexpensive, especially if you
ask on Klov.com - the largest resource of arcade info. These were used as
sound boards - so it also includes an onboard DAC and speaker amp, among
the typical peripherals, 6821. You still need to add a serial port for a
console.
19 Jun
19 Jun
12:15 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> wrote:
A very popular book to read
68000 Microcomputer Systems: Designing, and Troubleshooting, Alan Wilcox,
Prentice Hall, 1987, ISBN 0138113998
Looks like Mr Alan Wilcox has written several books on the 68000. I
will be keeping my eye out.
Another source of simple 68K SBC's to experiment
with is an arcade board by
Bally Midway, part#A080-91864-C000. I use two of them here. It has 128KW
Eprom space, up to 4KW Ram space. They are inexpensive, especially if you
ask on Klov.com - the largest resource of arcade info. These were used as
sound boards - so it also includes an onboard DAC and speaker amp, among
the typical peripherals, 6821. You still need to add a serial port for a
console.
Interesting idea. I just looked at a picture of one... That rather
looked like a PAL in the middle, to the right of the CPU... Probably
the addressing PAL... it might not be too hard to make a daughter card
that plugged into the 6821 socket as well, for access to the bus, etc,
as opposed to sitting in the CPU socket and grabbing the signals first
(like the in-the-socket IDE interfaces for the Amiga 500 did).
Depending on what the 6821 is used for locally, it might also not be
hard to remove it entirely and take advantage of its space and
connectivity with a serial chip (which would still need a little help
in the form of a local crystal, typically).
I'm sure the schematics for that board aren't hard to track down -
that would answer a lot of questions.
-ethan
12:54 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
At the expense of getting brickbats hurled in my direction, might I
suggest one of the Freescale Coldfire development boards (or clones
thereof). The Coldfire is basically a 68000 with some of the
instructions removed and others substituted. The devkits all have
USB and lots of interesting goodies.
You've got up-to-date development software to boot.
Learn to program the Coldfire, and the shift to 68K should be mostly
a matter of dialect. The basic architecture's the same.
Or, just get an old Atari ST--the operating system's easy
(essentially a duplicate of MS-DOS in many ways) and there are good
tools available.
For what it's worth.
--Chuck
1:11 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
For a "software only" aproach, try www.easy68k.com,
sombody even had CP/M68k working on it. It is also cool to debug a
piece of assembler code, until you have real hardware working ...
1:26 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Hi
Ok, I have to through this in as well.
It wouldn't do much for hardware but still fun for software.
Get a Canon Cat. It can be easily expanded to 512K
and even more if your interested in regenerating the EPROMs
code ( such a writing your own printer driver for your
favorite printer ).
One can use the built in editor to write your code and then
either compile Forth code or assembly.
One can play with bit mapped graphics ( B/W only ).
One can even fiddle with disk formats.
It is just not that interesting for fiddleing with hardware.
Most of the interesting stuff is in ASICs.
Dwight
6:16 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Get a Canon Cat. It can be easily expanded to 512K
and even more if your interested in regenerating the EPROMs
In Brazil? Impossible :o)
It is just not that interesting for fiddleing with
hardware.
Most of the interesting stuff is in ASICs.
Ruled out :o(
12:31 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Hello Alexandre,
I have a LMI cross meta-compiler for the 68K I used for a project about
25 years ago.
If you find a board you want to use, Send me the I/O map
I can send you something that will boot into forthand will give you full
access to the system.
You can have the source and modify the system at your leisure.
Anything with 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM and any I/O can be made to work
quite easily.
Cheers,
Jim Davis.
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000
SBC for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
Thanks
Alexandre
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
6:16 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Thanks a lot Jim, I'll do as soon as I find some interesting hardware to
use it.
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "jimpdavis" <jimpdavis at gorge.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Hello Alexandre,
I have a LMI cross meta-compiler for the 68K I used for a project about 25
years ago.
If you find a board you want to use, Send me the I/O map
I can send you something that will boot into forthand will give you full
access to the system.
You can have the source and modify the system at your leisure.
Anything with 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM and any I/O can be made to work quite
easily.
Cheers,
Jim Davis.
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC
for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
Thanks
Alexandre
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
9:27 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 19/06/12 12:31 AM, jimpdavis wrote:
Hello Alexandre,
I have a LMI cross meta-compiler for the 68K I used for a project about
25 years ago.
Here are sources to some more 68K cross-compilers:
http://www.telegraphics.com.au/svn/smallcnova/trunk/
--Toby
If you find a board you want to use, Send me the I/O
map
I can send you something that will boot into forthand will give you full
access to the system.
You can have the source and modify the system at your leisure.
Anything with 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM and any I/O can be made to work quite
easily.
Cheers,
Jim Davis.
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for
learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
Thanks
Alexandre
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
20 Jun
20 Jun
12:35 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 6/18/2012 1:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for
learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
http://www.vecoven.com/elec/m68k/m68k.html
He uses a 68008 in his design.
Keith
22 Jun
22 Jun
7:31 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Hi
Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO? With
emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of serial
ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD. No bus
expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would be Un*x
capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
Constructive ideas appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 1:18 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Dear friends,
Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for learning?
I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
Thanks
Alexandre
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
7:50 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 6/22/12 4:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
Hi
Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO? With
emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of serial
ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD. No bus
expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would be Un*x
capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
Constructive ideas appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010302122353/http://www.derivation.com/~cyliax…
8:02 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 6/22/12 4:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 6/22/12 4:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
mirrored here
http://retro.co.za/68000/ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/goo/
Hi
Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO? With
emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of serial
ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD. No bus
expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would be Un*x
capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
Constructive ideas appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010302122353/http://www.derivation.com/~cyliax…
23 Jun
23 Jun
10:34 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Al Kossow
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 8:02 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On 6/22/12 4:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010302122353/http://www.derivation.com/~c
Thanks Al! Yes, that's a very nice MC68030 station and well documented.
I've reviewed the files and the workstation PCB is quite large. It requires
a 4-layer PCB that is about the size of a PC/XT motherboard. I think it
would be very expensive to make these PCBs for hobbyists.
What I was thinking was more a smaller scale version of this without the
PC/AT bus interface and consolidated on to a smaller more affordable PCB. I
think this is feasible to do but I am going to need some help from hobbyists
familiar with the 68030 and able to trim the design down to fit onto a 60
square inch PCB.
Why 60 square inch? That is the largest size PCB that Advanced Circuits
accepts for their low-cost PCB prototyping service. The ability to make
prototype PCBs for 4 for $150 makes the project affordable without the large
up-front investment in big multi-layer PCBs.
This project is within reach but it is going to be a major undertaking.
Thanks and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
On 6/22/12 4:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
> Hi
>
> Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit
schematic?
Basically
a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO?
With emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of
serial ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD. No
bus expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would
be Un*x capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
Constructive ideas appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day!
yliax/ws030.html
mirrored here
http://retro.co.za/68000/ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/goo/ 
24 Jun
24 Jun
1:16 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
At 10:34 Uhr -0400 23.6.2012, Andrew Lynch wrote:
Thanks Al! Yes, that's a very nice MC68030 station and well documented.
I've reviewed the files and the workstation PCB is quite large. It requires
a 4-layer PCB that is about the size of a PC/XT motherboard. I think it
would be very expensive to make these PCBs for hobbyists.
What I was thinking was more a smaller scale version of this without the
PC/AT bus interface and consolidated on to a smaller more affordable PCB.
Comes to mind - c't had a 68K ECB card in vol. 11/1985, p. 62f.
It is not a simple design, since it has to map the 68k bus to ECB, but uses
only one PAL. Drop me a note if you want the (German) article scanned.
There were also a 68000 based and a 68008 based SBC design.
hauke
--
"It's never straight up and down" (DEVO)
10:55 p.m.
New subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media",
new unused condition. Anyone need these?
They're in Stockton, CA.
Jeff
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25 Jun
25 Jun
12:16 a.m.
New subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
RECORDABLE LASERDISCS?!?!?! WOW!!! I'd love to see one of these in
person :oD
I love laserdiscs :) I have the Laseractive system with
megadrive/genesis pack :oD
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "N0body H0me" <n0body.h0me at inbox.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:55 PM
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media",
new unused condition. Anyone need these?
They're in Stockton, CA.
Jeff
____________________________________________________________
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1:31 a.m.
New subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
VERY interesting! In this gallery, there is the recordable disc, the
recorder and the processor :oO
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joachim_s_mueller/3176789343/
I'd be ashamed to ask for one of these disks, but it would be a very
interesting piece, besides a 1.3gb MO disk :D
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "N0body H0me" <n0body.h0me at inbox.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:55 PM
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media",
new unused condition. Anyone need these?
They're in Stockton, CA.
Jeff
____________________________________________________________
GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
http://www.inbox.com/smileys
Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and
most webmails
28 Jun
28 Jun
1:21 a.m.
New subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
The cartridges I have are identical to the one in the photo.
Still, no takers, though-- If no one has need for these; then
they will go to "The site which must not be named. . ."
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com
Sent: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 02:31:26 -0300
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
VERY interesting! In this gallery, there is the recordable disc, the
recorder and the processor :oO
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joachim_s_mueller/3176789343/
I'd be ashamed to ask for one of these disks, but it would be a very
interesting piece, besides a 1.3gb MO disk :D
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "N0body H0me" <n0body.h0me at inbox.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:55 PM
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
>
> I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media",
> new unused condition. Anyone need these?
>
> They're in Stockton, CA.
>
>
> Jeff
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
> Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk?
> and
> most webmails
>
>
>
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25 Jun
25 Jun
1:49 a.m.
New subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
I saw the recorders at one time. If these are the ones slightly smaller
than the usual 12" ones.
the people who had it had never seen blank media.
On 6/24/2012 7:55 PM, N0body H0me wrote:
I have two of these "Laser Videodisk
Media",
new unused condition. Anyone need these?
10:14 a.m.
New subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:49 AM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
I saw the recorders at one time. ?If these are the
ones slightly smaller
than the usual 12" ones.
the people who had it had never seen blank media.
I have a Panasonic TQ-2028F monochrome videodisc recorder. It came
with a partially-used disc. The footage that's on it is some sort of
microscope "movie". It's WORM media, but I can write to the remaining
8-10 blank minutes.
I see numerous recorder units on eBay "for parts", etc. I did find a
hit or two about media for it, but I suspect the quantities available
would be low and the prices high.
-ethan
24 Jun
24 Jun
11:49 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Jun 22, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
Hi
Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO? With
emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of serial
ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD. No bus
expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would be Un*x
capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
Constructive ideas appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day!
That sounds like fun, but do you have a source of PGA '030s readily
available? I haven't been actively looking in some time, but last
I checked you could expect to shell out upwards of $30 each, which
seems a little much for a hobbyist SBC (the sockets aren't the
cheapest things on earth, either). '040s are somewhat easier to
find in quantity and are pretty nice performers, though I've never
looked at an '040 design closely enough to tell whether the bus
interface is that much harder.
- Dave
25 Jun
25 Jun
1:43 a.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Quoting David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>:
On Jun 22, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
> Hi
>
> Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit
schematic?
> Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO? With
> emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
Just go for a classical 68000/68230/68681. And there are really enough
upgrade boards to make 68020/68030/68040/etc. out of it. Or, if enough
people are interested in a 68000 design, make a 68030/68040 later.
7:04 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
That sounds like fun, but do you have a source of PGA '030s readily
available?
I haven't been actively looking in some time, but
last I checked you could
expect to shell out upwards of $30 each, which seems a little much for a
hobbyist SBC (the sockets aren't the cheapest things on earth, either).
'040s
are somewhat easier to find in quantity and are pretty
nice performers,
though I've never looked at an '040 design closely enough to tell whether
the
bus interface is that much harder.
- Dave
Hi Dave
Yes, the conversation on a hobbyist 68040 SBC is continuing on the N8VEM
mailing list. After doing some research on a notional design (MC68040 with
MC68360 in "companion mode") and some bare bones IO (using a Propeller) I
am stunned at how expensive such a design would be. I realize Motorola lost
the hardware price wars in the 1990's and now I know why! This will cost a
fortune to build!
The MC68040 is very expensive and the MC68360 is also expensive but at least
there is a "low cost" (<$30) in large SMT-only packages (QFP-240). Ugh.
Even a stripped down SBC is going to be very expensive to build and will
almost certainly require SMT devices. The MC68030 is essentially
unobtainium except for onesie/twosie deals on eBay.
I am discovering the fully 32 bit Motorola processors with MMU are not
"hobbyist friendly" by any stretch. Any help greatly appreciated! Thanks
and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
PS, if you are interested in the 68040 SBC discussion you are welcome to
join us on the N8VEM mailing list.
7:20 p.m.
New subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
On Jun 25, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
Hi Dave
Yes, the conversation on a hobbyist 68040 SBC is continuing on the N8VEM
mailing list. After doing some research on a notional design (MC68040 with
MC68360 in "companion mode") and some bare bones IO (using a Propeller) I
am stunned at how expensive such a design would be. I realize Motorola lost
the hardware price wars in the 1990's and now I know why! This will cost a
fortune to build!
Well, it cuts both ways. The chips were more expensive and are rarer now
because they were produced in lower volume. The causal relationships for
the prices are complex and interdependent at best. They didn't exactly
lose the hardware wars in embedded systems, but that market was so far
dwarfed by the IBM-compatible PC market that it scarcely matters.
The MC68040 is very expensive and the MC68360 is also expensive but at least
there is a "low cost" (<$30) in large SMT-only packages (QFP-240). Ugh.
Even a stripped down SBC is going to be very expensive to build and will
almost certainly require SMT devices. The MC68030 is essentially
unobtainium except for onesie/twosie deals on eBay.
The '040 is expensive new, but I find it to be cheaper and more readily
available on eBay, at least (about $25 each vs $35-$70). I think it's
because no PQFPs of the '040 were (to my knowledge) ever developed, so
while many '030s (especially on Macs) were PQFPs that were never pulled
from dead units. The '040, on the other hand, was
only ever available
in CQFP (which few people like to use) and CPGA, which is a lot
more
recoverable.
My recollection is that the '040 was only available in ceramic because
it ran so damn hot (for the time, anyway). I don't recall the 486
being much better in that respect; every one I saw had at least a
heat sink on it.
I am discovering the fully 32 bit Motorola processors
with MMU are not
"hobbyist friendly" by any stretch. Any help greatly appreciated! Thanks
and have a nice day!
Well, no more so than the equivalent 80x86 CPUs. The 68000 is a little
harder to interface to a bus than an 8086, but people are much more
used to doing the latter. Moving forward, they're all a pain in the
neck.
PS, if you are interested in the 68040 SBC discussion
you are welcome to
join us on the N8VEM mailing list.
I would love to! I never quite figured out how to join, but that's
due to lack of effort on my part. One of these days I'll find some
round tuits and jump aboard.
- Dave
18 Jun
18 Jun
1:07 p.m.
On 06/18/2012 12:55 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote:
Boy, I'd love this too. It seems like the UAE
and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in
the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like
a a live monitor.
Let us know what you find,
030 would be perfectly fine... Sadly BSD and Linux both would require a
working MMU... I'd be happy with just a text console and a shell.
Basically want to experiment with stuff I'd normally do on the NeXT.
UAE might do the trick if I can get a unix with GCC for it.
I suppose in the absolute worst case I can always use Think C, MPW, or
CodeWarrior on Basilisk II, but, I'd prefer GCC, so I don't have to go
fiddling with the compiler switches and other incompatibilities.
1:28 p.m.
On Jun 18, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote:
On 06/18/2012 12:55 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote:
The 040/060 MMU is actually easier as I recall. I've seen some references to UAE
w/o the JIT stuff having a patch for MMU, but I'm unfamiliar with this.
Building a GCC cross compiler for 68k isn't that difficult, see:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~klingens/files/crossgcc.pdf
-Ryan
Boy, I'd love this too. It seems like the
UAE and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is
interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line
emulator, sorta like a a live monitor.
Let us know what you find,
030 would be perfectly fine? Sadly BSD and Linux both would require a
working MMU... I'd be happy with just a text console and a shell.
Basically want to experiment with stuff I'd normally do on the NeXT.
UAE might do the trick if I can get a unix with GCC for it.
I suppose in the absolute worst case I can always use Think C, MPW, or
CodeWarrior on Basilisk II, but, I'd prefer GCC, so I don't have to go
fiddling with the compiler switches and other incompatibilities.
2:07 p.m.
On 06/18/2012 01:28 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote:
Building a GCC cross compiler for 68k isn't that
difficult, see:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~klingens/files/crossgcc.pdf
I've done this before, but obviously I can't debug the resulting code,
especially since I'll do gcc -s to get at the 68K assembly, tweak that,
and play with it.
1:52 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
Anyone have a link to this? Can't seem to find it on my old friend...
re,
Sander
--
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr
> Anyone know of a working emulator for a
Motorola 68K system that works
> well enough to install either linux/bsd in?
Brad Parker's version of the MIT Sun simulator may be able to boot BSD.
3:07 p.m.
At 12:21 Uhr -0400 18.6.2012, Ray Arachelian wrote:
Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K
system that works
well enough to install either linux/bsd in?
The TME sun[23] emulator <http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/> runs
NetBSD and SunOS.
hauke
--
"It's never straight up and down" (DEVO)
4412
days inactive
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