19 Aug
2011
19 Aug
'11
8:13 a.m.
Some time ago I was given a Sun Ultra 5. My intention is not to keep it, but
I would like to see if I can get it to work first before finding a new owner
for it.
It did not come with a keyboard, so I have been trying to get something out
of the serial port, I believe that when there is no keyboard attached it
uses the serial port.
From my records it looks like at some point when I
first got it I did manage
to get to see something using 38400 baud, but now I
don't get anything at
all. This could be just that I have not got the right cable between the
machine and my terminal emulator.
Should I expect to be able to boot the machine from the serial port, log in
etc?
Thanks
Rob
19 Aug
19 Aug
8:23 a.m.
--- On Fri, 8/19/11, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
Should I expect to be able to boot the machine from
the
serial port, log in
etc?
Yes. You should be able to see all the boot diagnostic messages, as well as the firmware
and the OS (if installed). Try 9600 8/n/1
-Ian
8:52 a.m.
I tried 9600 as well without any luck. I think it is the cable, I *always*
have trouble with serial cables. At the moment I have a cable with pins 2
and 3 crossed over and pins 7 and 8 on the PC side shorted together. I may
have to crack open my breakout box to sort this out.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus
Sent: 19 August 2011 16:23
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work
--- On Fri, 8/19/11, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
as the
Should I expect to be able to boot the machine
from the serial port,
log in etc?
Yes. You should be able to see all the boot diagnostic messages, as well firmware and the OS (if installed). Try 9600 8/n/1
-Ian
9:06 a.m.
Hi,
On 19 August 2011 23:52, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
I tried 9600 as well without any luck. I think it is
the cable, I *always*
have trouble with serial cables. At the moment I have a cable with pins 2
and 3 crossed over and pins 7 and 8 on the PC side shorted together. I may
have to crack open my breakout box to sort this out.
That doesn't sound right. I can not remember if the Ultra 5 has a DE9
or DB25 socket on the back.
Anyway. Pins 2 and 3 are the TX and RX pins (not respectively) on both
DE9 and DB25. Pin 5 on the DE9 is GND, as is pin 7 on the DB25. If you
are running windows you may need additional pins shorted together but
I seem to recall that most recent offerings from Microsoft can be
configured to work with just the three wires.
Good luck.
Simon
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to
philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is
the utility of the final product."
Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh
9:09 a.m.
--- On Fri, 8/19/11, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
I tried 9600 as well without any
luck. I think it is the cable, I *always*
have trouble with serial cables. At the moment I have a
cable with pins 2
and 3 crossed over and pins 7 and 8 on the PC side shorted
together. I may
have to crack open my breakout box to sort this out.
Which serial port are you using? The Ultra 5 has two, and the A port is a
DB25 (which is what the console will default to). The pin layout of a 9 pin
PC port is different - the functions of pins 2 and 3 are swapped. So, you
should actually have pin 2 on the Sun's 25 pin port connected to pin 2 of
the PC's 9 pin port - the same with pin 3.
-Ian
12:42 p.m.
On 08/19/2011 11:52 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
I tried 9600 as well without any luck. I think it is
the cable, I *always*
have trouble with serial cables. At the moment I have a cable with pins 2
and 3 crossed over and pins 7 and 8 on the PC side shorted together. I may
have to crack open my breakout box to sort this out.
Ignore the standard, and leave the break-out box in the drawer.
After years of practically memorizing the (horrible) standard and trying
to do things "by the book" analytically, etc, I refer to it as "RS-232
in-your-face" rather than "interface".
Connect pins 2, 3, and 7. If it doesn't talk, swap 2 and 3. This
will get 90% of what you'll find in the wild talking (and will
definitely work for nearly all Sun gear), only break out the break-out
box if this doesn't work.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
20 Aug
20 Aug
11:04 a.m.
[RS232]
Ignore the standard, and leave the break-out box in
the drawer.
After years of practically memorizing the (horrible) standard and trying
to do things "by the book" analytically, etc, I refer to it as "RS-232
in-your-face" rather than "interface".
It's odd... I would give the opposite advice. Since I started using a
breakout box (or similar) to see just what the devices were doing I find
I can wirte a serial cable and get it to work first time (at least most
of the time :-)).
First test is to connectr a breakout box or a quick-checker (one of thos
adapters with LEDs montiros i nthe most important signals) to each device
in turn That will tell me which signals it's driving, and henxe if it's
a DTE (driving pin 2 at least) or a DCE (driving pin 3). From whihc
handshake lines are driven you can make a fair guess as to which
handshake inputs it'll be listening too (if it drives RTS, it may well be
looking at CTS, etc). If in doubt, I trace the pins inside to th buffer
chips (takes a few minuts at most).
Then I patch up a cable to link ground (pin 7) and the data lines (2,3)
appropriately. Try that. If one device won't sent anything, I try
asserting handshake lines until it dosn
Everything I use with an RS23 connector other than a DB25 (I have machines
with DE9s (assorted wring!),Qunicuncial 5 pin DIN plugs (3 diffferent sets
of conenctions), 8 pin DIN, 8 pin mini-DIN, 50 pin microribbon, 4 pin
header plugs, 10 pin headre plugs, etc) gets a cable to convert it to a
DB25 of the appropriate gender.
-tony
1:02 p.m.
On 08/20/2011 02:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
[RS232]
Yes, I agree in principle, but in the wild there are really very few
machines that require any of the handshaking lines to be used, and if
you're trying to get a console port talking as quickly as possible (say,
at a customer site) then my approach really is the way to go. Plug,
doesn't work, re-plug, works. I can do that in less time than it takes
to fish the breakout box out of the tool bag.
I personally use a slightly different procedure in practice. I use
one of the quick-checkers that you describe, though, the one with seven
LEDs. I connect it inline, check to see that both TxD and RxD are being
driven (at any state, just ensure they're being driven), and if only one
is, insert a null modem. 99% of the time, that gets things talking
right away. For the remaining 1%, I always keep a breakout box handy.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Ignore the standard, and leave the break-out
box in the drawer.
After years of practically memorizing the (horrible) standard and trying
to do things "by the book" analytically, etc, I refer to it as "RS-232
in-your-face" rather than "interface".
It's odd... I would give the opposite advice. Since I started using a
breakout box (or similar) to see just what the devices were doing I find
I can wirte a serial cable and get it to work first time (at least most
of the time :-)).
21 Aug
21 Aug
9:49 a.m.
On 08/20/2011 02:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Hmmm.. I find rather too many devices expect some handshake inputs to be
asserted before they will do anything. I guess it depends on what you
work on. DEC machines almost never use hardware flow control, but a lot
of test instruemtns do, for example.
[RS232]
Yes, I agree in principle, but in the wild there are really very few
machines that require any of the handshaking lines to be used, and if Ignore the standard, and leave the break-out
box in the drawer.
After years of practically memorizing the (horrible) standard and trying
to do things "by the book" analytically, etc, I refer to it as "RS-232
in-your-face" rather than "interface".
It's odd... I would give the opposite advice. Since I started using a
breakout box (or similar) to see just what the devices were doing I find
I can wirte a serial cable and get it to work first time (at least most
of the time :-)). you're trying to get a console port talking as
quickly as possible (say,
at a customer site) then my approach really is the way to go. Plug,
doesn't work, re-plug, works. I can do that in less time than it takes
to fish the breakout box out of the tool bag.
As ever I like to know why it works. I've been bittne too many times.
I personally use a slightly different procedure in practice. I use
one of the quick-checkers that you describe, though, the one with seven
Ah, so why didn't you say this tyhe first time?
Those testers are very useful for finding wheter a device is a DTE or
DCE, and are certainly the first thing I grab. Can you still get them I
wonder?
There are a couple of other things that I find solve an awful ot of RS232
problems. The firsti s the 'universal gender cable'. I've never seen
this commercially, but it only takes a few minutes to make. It's a length
of 25-wire IDC ribbon cable with a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket at each
end (say put the socket about 3" along the cable and the plug at the very
end), of course with corresponding pins connected.
The 2 adapters I use a lot are a null-modem including the handshakes
(crossed TxD and RxD, crossed RTS and CTS, crossed DTR with DSR strapped
to CD) and a null modem with looped handshakes (crossed TxD and RxD, then
RTS linked to CTS at each end and DTR linked to DSR and CD at each end).
99% of problems can bve solvd with those.
Incidentally, I've yet to find a male DB25 on a piece of equipment wired
as a DCE. Male is always DTE. Femal should eb DCE, but in practice it can
be either. HP wre particularly bad about this!. Oh, and computers are
normally DTEs, but there's at least one Apple ][ serial card that is
wired as a DCE only (!).
-tony
12:18 p.m.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:49:49 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Femal should eb DCE, but in practice it can
be either. HP wre particularly bad about this!.
Sun too. Female DB25 connectors on
DTEs...
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
1:22 p.m.
On 08/21/2011 12:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Hmmm.. I find rather too many devices expect some handshake inputs to be
asserted before they will do anything. I guess it depends on what you
work on. DEC machines almost never use hardware flow control, but a lot
of test instruemtns do, for example.
Yes, I can buy that. I almost never interface to test equipment via
RS-232. I do lots of HP-IB comm, but I have very little test equipment
that uses RS-232. I'm almost always interfacing either old computers
(and my focus there is on DEC), old networking equipment, or new
networking equipment. All of those will almost always work with no
handshaking lines at all.
Same here, and same here. I've found, however, that in the context
of RS-232, "why it works" is usually preceded by "why doesn't it
work",
and the answer to that is almost always either "the standard just sucks"
or "creative interpretation of the standard".
In the context of networking equipment, it's usually a matter of the
customer standing there sweating, begging me to get something working
because half of the network is down. I could sit there for ten minutes
with a breakout box turning it into a lesson on how that particular
engineer decided to implement RS-232, or I can whip out my "make
anything work" bundle of cables and get the network back up.
I was probably in a rush; my apologies.
It's odd... I would give the opposite advice.
Since I started using a
breakout box (or similar) to see just what the devices were doing I find
I can wirte a serial cable and get it to work first time (at least most
of the time :-)).
Yes, I agree in principle, but in the wild there are really very few
machines that require any of the handshaking lines to be used, and if you're
trying to get a console port talking as quickly as possible (say,
at a customer site) then my approach really is the way to go. Plug,
doesn't work, re-plug, works. I can do that in less time than it takes
to fish the breakout box out of the tool bag.
As ever I like to know why it works. I've been bittne too many times. I
personally use a slightly different procedure in practice. I use
one of the quick-checkers that you describe, though, the one with seven
Ah, so why didn't you say this tyhe first time? Those testers are very useful for finding wheter a
device is a DTE or
DCE, and are certainly the first thing I grab. Can you still get them I
wonder?
Yes, I've seen them new as recently as a year ago. I think Radio
Shack (over here) even still carries them. They're available via eBay
(new) all day long.
There are a couple of other things that I find solve
an awful ot of RS232
problems. The firsti s the 'universal gender cable'. I've never seen
this commercially, but it only takes a few minutes to make. It's a length
of 25-wire IDC ribbon cable with a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket at each
end (say put the socket about 3" along the cable and the plug at the very
end), of course with corresponding pins connected.
Yes, those are very handy. I have a similar one that's
commercially-made; it has both DB-25 and DE-9 connectors on each end.
That was a neat trick; I grabbed it as soon as I saw it!
Incidentally, I've yet to find a male DB25 on a
piece of equipment wired
as a DCE. Male is always DTE. Femal should eb DCE, but in practice it can
be either. HP wre particularly bad about this!. Oh, and computers are
normally DTEs, but there's at least one Apple ][ serial card that is
wired as a DCE only (!).
Since the very first time I fought with an RS-232 interface
(in-yer-face) decades ago, I've (as have you) seen so many violations of
DCE vs. DTE, and of course that distinction was never useful to begin
with, that I've decided (for me anyway) the best way to deal with that
distinction is to ignore it. After all, is that PC on your desk a DTE
or a DCE? Which role it plays depends on what you're doing with it. So
now, what's the "correct" pinout?
That's not the way I generally work, and I know full well that it's
not the way you EVER work, but in this instance, in my experience, this
is the best way to approach RS-232.fucker working
The RS-232 standard is a piece of crap in this regard, but it isn't
going away anytime soon, so we deal with it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
22 Aug
22 Aug
8:31 a.m.
A few jobs back, where I spent about 10 years, I spent tons of time on
interfacing various pieces of equipment. A popular application was
serial<->ethernet as many people brought use-to-be serial-only
applications online to utilize the available network connections,
especially inter-building and across WANs/VPNs.
While the network portion was my specialty and reason for being there, I
would always get dragged into troubleshooting serial connections, and
became pretty good at doing so.
Asking the customer if his device is a DTE or a DCE is useless. Besides
the fact that the answer only provides limited information anyway,
customers always guess and almost always get it wrong. It became a joke
amongst people in support that you should assume the opposite of what
they tell you.
Getting both the pinout AND directions of the signal from a reliable
source (usually from the manufacturer of the equipment) was the only
surefire way of knowing how to interface to it.
There are some manufacturers who would use the hardware control leads to
communicate information (more than just for flow-control). Was it maybe
the programming interface for Motorola radios?
Keith
9:21 a.m.
On 22 Aug 2011 at 11:31, Keith Monahan wrote:
There are some manufacturers who would use the
hardware control leads
to communicate information (more than just for flow-control). Was it
maybe the programming interface for Motorola radios?
Let's not forget the secondary channel interface as well as the
peculiar setups of modems with low-speed "reverse" channels. Then
there are the synchronous modems...
Simple point-to-point async is simple by comparison!
--Chuck
9:43 a.m.
On 8/22/2011 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 22 Aug 2011 at 11:31, Keith Monahan wrote:
Sure. And I forgot the differential ones, too.
Keith
There are some manufacturers who would use the
hardware control leads
to communicate information (more than just for flow-control). Was it
maybe the programming interface for Motorola radios?
Let's not forget the secondary channel interface as well as the
peculiar setups of modems with low-speed "reverse" channels. Then
there are the synchronous modems...
Simple point-to-point async is simple by comparison!
--Chuck
11:31 a.m.
On 8/22/2011 1:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 22 Aug 2011 at 12:43, Keith Monahan wrote:
Exactly. A lot (all?) of my RS-422 applications were point to point, I
think. RS-449 on the DB37, and RS-530 on the DB25. With the addressable
nature of RS-485, they had the tendency to be multidrop more often.
There were some Allen Bradley PLCs, Scada systems, and the like to which
we were interfaced.
I dealt with both async applications, and sync applications between
routers and CSU/DSUs when leased lines were much more popular.
Cisco had(has) what they called a 5-in-1 interface(later more, maybe
8-in-1) with matching cables that had a high-density 60-pin connector on
the router side, and then the appropriate connector on the other side.
With shorting groups within the HD60, it told the cisco hardware which
electrical standard to pick and use.
The cable would also tell the router if it was appearing as a DTE or a
DCE, and this would control directions of signals -- but also whether
clock generation was allowed on the interface. DCE's could
provide/source the clock, but DTE's could receive only. The router was
typically the DTE, with the CSU/DSUs, multiplexors, etc being the DCE's.
Normally the clock would be generated on the leased circuit, and then
the CSU/DSU's on both ends of the link would recover the clock, and then
sync the transmissions of the routers to it.
We had one router that had in essence a frequency counter, and it could
actually display in real-time(more or less) the current rate present on
the clock interface.
Cisco also had a DTE/DCE crossover cable with HD60's on both sides. One
side was shorted to be a DTE and the other a DCE. You would enable
clocking on the DCE side, and it would allow two routers to communicate
back-to-back without the need for any intermediate equipment.
I would also be remiss if I didn't mention V.35, probably the most
popular serial sync interface on routers.
Keith
Sure. And I forgot the differential ones, too.
Do you mean RS-422 and RS-485? I tend to think of those more as
multidrop/network signalling methods. Didn't Novell start out with
an RS-422 networking scheme?
--Chuck
12:19 p.m.
Hmmm.. I find
rather too many devices expect some handshake inputs to be
asserted before they will do anything. I guess it depends on what you
work on. DEC machines almost never use hardware flow control, but a lot
of test instruemtns do, for example.
Yes, I can buy that. I almost never interface to test equipment via
RS-232. I do lots of HP-IB comm, but I have very little test equipment that uses RS-232. I'm almost always interfacing
either old computers
(and my focus there is on DEC), old networking equipment, or new
DEC stuff almoast always ignores the handshake lines...
networking equipment. All of those will almost always
work with no
handshaking lines at all.
Right,...
I forgot to metnionthat when I am sorting out an unknown device, I link
it ot a terminal which I know the behaviour of (for excample, I know
it'll ignroe handshake lines). Only having one unknown device helps a lot.
Of coure sometimes I am asked to link up 2 devices I know little about.
In this case, I take along a terminal of my own (often my trust HP95LX)
and get ach device working seaprately if I can. It's quicker in the end.
or "creative interpretation of the
standard".
In my experience, it's the devices that interpret the standard to the
letter that cause the most problems. mainly becasue they'll use RTS and
CTS as half-duplex turn-awround signals and confuse the hell out of
anything else...
Since the very first time I fought with an RS-232
interface
(in-yer-face) decades ago, I've (as have you) seen so many violations of
DCE vs. DTE, and of course that distinction was never useful to begin
Well, it was useful for the original application (linking a terminal to a
modem, and no other purpose). The fact that RS232 has been used for all
sorts of other applications is not really the standard's fault.
with, that I've decided (for me anyway) the best
way to deal with that
distinction is to ignore it. After all, is that PC on your desk a DTE
or a DCE? Which role it plays depends on what you're doing with it. So
I think it's dififuclt to justify that a computer should be a DCE.
now, what's the "correct" pinout?
That's not the way I generally work, and I know full well that it's
not the way you EVER work, but in this instance, in my experience, this
is the best way to approach RS-232.fucker working
The RS-232 standard is a piece of crap in this regard, but it isn't
going away anytime soon, so we deal with it.
The thing that annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not
symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge. OK,
you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do you wap
DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the time you
can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving the DSR signal,
but not always.
-tony
1:44 p.m.
On 22 Aug 2011 at 20:19, Tony Duell wrote:
The thing that annoys me is that (as commonly
implemented), it's not
symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge.
OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do
you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the
time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving the
DSR signal, but not always.
My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto-
detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined
via active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and
CTS? It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power
supply issues.
--Chuck
2:21 p.m.
On 08/22/2011 04:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
There were a few "smart cables". Many years ago I used one that was
called, I think, "Smart Cable". ;) It had a plastic chassis with a few
feet of ribbon cable coming out of each end. There were one or two
slide switches on it. I don't recall much more about it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The thing that
annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not
symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge.
OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do
you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the
time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving the
DSR signal, but not always.
My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto-
detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined
via active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and
CTS? It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power
supply issues. 
4:41 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
There were a few "smart cables". Many
years ago I used one that was
called, I think, "Smart Cable". ;) It had a plastic chassis with a few
feet of ribbon cable coming out of each end. There were one or two
slide switches on it. I don't recall much more about it.
That's about all that there is to know about them. I guess that I could
take pictures of them, or smash one open to see what's there.
I've accumulated a shoebox full over the years, but never had a reason to
want to use those over other approaches.
On the other hand, the "matrix switch" (10 10throw slide switches, with a
DB25 at each end) was more fun.
5:25 p.m.
On 23/08/2011 00:41, Fred Cisin wrote:
I've accumulated a shoebox full over the years,
but never had a reason to
want to use those over other approaches.
On the other hand, the "matrix switch" (10 10throw slide switches, with a
DB25 at each end) was more fun.
I have a neat little box which has no switches, but instead has a 10 x
10 plugboard, with the main signals from the DB25 connectors taken to
two adjacent sides "X" and "Y". Inserting a pin at the intersection
of
any X and Y links the signals there. The side opposite each DB25 has a
10-section DIL LED so you can what's happening on the corresponding
connector.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
23 Aug
23 Aug
12:05 p.m.
On the other hand, the "matrix switch" (10
10throw slide switches, with a
DB25 at each end) was more fun.
Some of those 'universal' switching adapters (or patchboards) had the
problem that you couldn't strap 2 signals at ne end of the cable withoug
it goign to soemthign at the other end. In particlar doing things like
looping cak RTS to CTS and each end with no connection to the otehr end
was impossible
YEasr ago I made a universal RS232 adapter. It used a lot of DIP switches
and a pair of DB25 conenctors. From waht I rememebr :
A DPDt swithc did the obvios staright/cross connection of TxD and RxD.
There were 4 off 4-way DIP switches associated with each connector and 4
further switches linking them. The following circuit was built 4 times :
RTS --/ o----+ +---/ o---RTS
CTS --/ o----+ +---/ o---CTS
DSR --/ o----+-----/ o------+---/ o---DSR
DTR --/ o----+ +---/ o---DTR
These circuits could be used to link any handshake line at one end to any
line at the other end, or, bu openning the middle switch to loop back
handshake lines at one or othre end. Or of course to do things like DTR
at one end driving DSR and CTS at the other end.
I think I added a couple more swtiches to link the DCD line on each
conenctor to the DSR line o tne hsame connetor.
It worked wrll, and I nevr found a device that couldn't be got to work
using it. On the toerh hand, working out the settings of 40 switches took
as long (if not longer) than soldering up a custom cable...
-tony
4:02 p.m.
On 23/08/2011 20:05, Tony Duell wrote:
Some of those 'universal' switching adapters
(or patchboards) had the
problem that you couldn't strap 2 signals at ne end of the cable withoug
it goign to soemthign at the other end. In particlar doing things like
looping cak RTS to CTS and each end with no connection to the otehr end
was impossible
Some of Modular Technology's Interfakers were like that, but my matrix
board breakout box has three lines for each interface that could be tied
to any signal(s) without going anywhere. Most useful gadget I ever
bought, and still in use -- and not just at home for hobby use.. Photo
at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/6074843016/in/photostream (and my
Interfaker is shown in the adjacent photo)
You can see it's currently plugged to link pins 6,8 and 20 on one side
without affecting anything else.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
24 Aug
24 Aug
11:29 a.m.
On 23/08/2011 20:05, Tony Duell wrote:
Now that I like!
Some of those 'universal' switching
adapters (or patchboards) had the
problem that you couldn't strap 2 signals at ne end of the cable withoug
it goign to soemthign at the other end. In particlar doing things like
looping cak RTS to CTS and each end with no connection to the otehr end
was impossible
Some of Modular Technology's Interfakers were like that, but my matrix
board breakout box has three lines for each interface that could be tied to any signal(s) without going anywhere. Most useful
gadget I ever
bought, and still in use -- and not just at home for hobby use.. Photo
at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/6074843016/in/photostream (and my
Interfaker is shown in the adjacent photo)
I wonder if these things evre turn up for sane prices on E-bay?
I do have a couple of unusual breakout boxes. The 'breakout' part is
convemntion (DIP swtiches ot interrupt each signal line nad patch leads).
They have extra facilities. One is a pocket sized thing that'll do a bit
error rate ttest, detect signal transitions, etc (there's an 8085 + EPROM
+ 8155 I/O inside). The other is a briefcase sized thing that not only
has a breakout box but also will capture the data from the line, display
it (LCD display), primnt it internal stripprinter), do RS232-current loop
conversions (with different baud rates on the 2 sides), RS232-parallel
(Centronics or Data Products IIRC) ocnversison and even program EPROMS
(!).
A couple of other things that I've found uzeful. My larger 'conventional'
breakout box uses 2mm plugs/sockets for the patch leads. I made up a
cable consisiting of a DB25 socket with pins 3 and 7 wired to 2mm plugs.
I can plug that into a terminal and use it to monitor the data on either
signal line in siad breakout box.
The othre thing I find very useful is a pocket terminal. I use an HP95LX
palmtop. The nromal serial cable for that wsa designed to link it to a PC
for data transfer and ends in a DCE-wired DE9 socket. It came with an
adapter to conver that to a DB25 socket, also DCE wired. The connector on
the machine has 4 pins, protective ground, TxD, RxD, signal ground. I
took a spare serial cabe and cut off the DE9 socket, revealing 3 wires,
Buzzing out the DE9 conenctions told me whtat they were, and I wired the
cable that connects ot the 95LX to a DB25 as a _DTE_ (I think I strapped
4-5 and 6-8-20 too) So now I cna plug it into a DCE-wired port.
-tony
25 Aug
25 Aug
4:28 p.m.
On 24/08/2011 19:29, Tony Duell wrote:
I've never seen another quite like mine, which is a pity. I'm resigned
to having to make one if I need another, but I've never quite got round
to it. I've got a couple more breakout boxes of various types. One is
the size of the Interfaker but includes an LCD display and VOM.
Some of
Modular Technology's Interfakers were like that, but my matrix
board breakout box has three lines for each interface that could be tied
Now that I like!
to any signal(s) without going anywhere. Most
useful gadget I ever
bought, and still in use -- and not just at home for hobby use.. Photo
at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/6074843016/in/photostream (and my
Interfaker is shown in the adjacent photo)
I wonder if these things evre turn up for sane prices on E-bay? I do have a couple of unusual breakout boxes. The
'breakout' part is
convemntion (DIP swtiches ot interrupt each signal line nad patch leads).
They have extra facilities. One is a pocket sized thing that'll do a bit
error rate ttest, detect signal transitions, etc (there's an 8085 + EPROM
+ 8155 I/O inside). The other is a briefcase sized thing that not only
has a breakout box but also will capture the data from the line, display
it (LCD display), primnt it internal stripprinter), do RS232-current loop
conversions (with different baud rates on the 2 sides), RS232-parallel
(Centronics or Data Products IIRC) ocnversison and even program EPROMS
(!).
The latter sounds a bit like my big blue serial analyser, which I've not
used for a long time -- so long, I can't even remember the make. It's
about the size of Tek 465 scope but the front cover is basically a
keyboard. Of course now you can get a pocket-sized gadget connected to
a laptop via USB to do all sorts, using software on the laptop to
control it and analyse the data.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
26 Aug
26 Aug
10:55 a.m.
+ 8155 I/O
inside). The other is a briefcase sized thing that not only
has a breakout box but also will capture the data from the line, display
it (LCD display), primnt it internal stripprinter), do RS232-current loop
conversions (with different baud rates on the 2 sides), RS232-parallel
(Centronics or Data Products IIRC) ocnversison and even program EPROMS
(!).
The latter sounds a bit like my big blue serial analyser, which I've not
used for a long time -- so long, I can't even remember the make. It's about the size of Tek 465 scope but the front cover is
basically a
keyboard. Of course now you can get a pocket-sized gadget connected to
a laptop via USB to do all sorts, using software on the laptop to
control it and analyse the data.
Along with an USB EPROM programmer, USB-current loop converter (does that
even esist?) and so on. I'll stick to the Ferret,
-tony
5:46 p.m.
On 26/08/2011 18:55, Tony Duell wrote:
Never seen a USB-20mA (for example). Everything seems to be based on
voltage thresholds these days, and the shortcomings of that were brought
home to me today in discussion with a building management systems
installer advising that the signaling from a leak detector would not
travel several hundred feet without an (expensive) booster box at each
end. We're not talking about fast baud rates here, just some remote
sensing device with an output consisting of voltage-free relay contacts,
feeding equipment that provides a voltage to distinguish "on" this
morning from "off" this afternoon. The cable resistance has an inherent
voltage drop of course, so they can't guarantee that closing the relay
contacts will cause the voltage to drop sufficiently at the active
equipment end. A current-sensing input could deal with that no problem,
but they'd never come across the concept of current-sensing.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
about the size
of Tek 465 scope but the front cover is basically a
keyboard. Of course now you can get a pocket-sized gadget connected to
a laptop via USB to do all sorts, using software on the laptop to
control it and analyse the data.
Along with an USB EPROM programmer, USB-current loop converter (does that
even esist?) and so on. I'll stick to the Ferret,
7:09 p.m.
On 27 Aug 2011 at 1:46, Pete Turnbull wrote:
Never seen a USB-20mA (for example). Everything seems
to be based on
voltage thresholds these days...
Well, USB-to-RS422 or RS485 adapters certainly exist. I suspect that
the reason that USB-to-20ma adapters are thin on the ground is that
most prefer to go USB-to-RS232-to-20ma, given power requirements and
the availability of RS232-to-20ma hardware.
--Chuck
27 Aug
27 Aug
10:52 a.m.
Well, USB-to-RS422 or RS485 adapters certainly exist. I suspect that
the reason that USB-to-20ma adapters are thin on the ground is that
most prefer to go USB-to-RS232-to-20ma, given power requirements and
the availability of RS232-to-20ma hardware.
The more bits you need to carry around with you, the more chansce that
hte essential bit is left on your workbench, or left, forgootne and some
remote site....
-tony
10:49 a.m.
Never seen a USB-20mA (for example). Everything seems
to be based on
voltage thresholds these days, and the shortcomings of that were brought
Is it? I've seen analogue transducers with a 4-20mA analogue output (i.e.
a current source output) very recently. I assume they still exist.
home to me today in discussion with a building
management systems
installer advising that the signaling from a leak detector would not
travel several hundred feet without an (expensive) booster box at each
end. We're not talking about fast baud rates here, just some remote
sensing device with an output consisting of voltage-free relay contacts,
feeding equipment that provides a voltage to distinguish "on" this
morning from "off" this afternoon. The cable resistance has an inherent
voltage drop of course, so they can't guarantee that closing the relay
contacts will cause the voltage to drop sufficiently at the active
equipment end. A current-sensing input could deal with that no problem,
but they'd never come across the concept of current-sensing.
ARGH!. But that's what you get nowadays. So-called 'engineers' who belive
problems are solved by sticking complex modules toghter and who don't
(and many can't) really think about the probkem. I've see it all too
often.
-tony
1:30 p.m.
On 08/27/2011 01:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Indeed, they're all over the place in industrial control environments.
Yep. It's prevalent in the software world as well.
Clicking-and-drooling while mired in the eye-candy interface of an IDE,
gluing bits of other people's *real* code together and clicking "build
my program", without ever really understanding how anything works.
Google's databases are chock full of archived forum posts containing
unbelievably stupid questions from these sorts of "programmers". Idiots.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Never seen a
USB-20mA (for example). Everything seems to be based on
voltage thresholds these days, and the shortcomings of that were brought
Is it? I've seen analogue transducers with a 4-20mA analogue output (i.e.
a current source output) very recently. I assume they still exist. home to me
today in discussion with a building management systems
installer advising that the signaling from a leak detector would not
travel several hundred feet without an (expensive) booster box at each
end. We're not talking about fast baud rates here, just some remote
sensing device with an output consisting of voltage-free relay contacts,
feeding equipment that provides a voltage to distinguish "on" this
morning from "off" this afternoon. The cable resistance has an inherent
voltage drop of course, so they can't guarantee that closing the relay
contacts will cause the voltage to drop sufficiently at the active
equipment end. A current-sensing input could deal with that no problem,
but they'd never come across the concept of current-sensing.
ARGH!. But that's what you get nowadays. So-called 'engineers' who belive
problems are solved by sticking complex modules toghter and who don't
(and many can't) really think about the probkem. I've see it all too
often. 
12:18 p.m.
Pete Turnbull wrote:
Everything seems to be based on
voltage thresholds these days, and the shortcomings of that were brought
home to me today in discussion with a building management systems
installer advising that the signaling from a leak detector would not
travel several hundred feet without an (expensive) booster box at each
end. We're not talking about fast baud rates here, just some remote
sensing device with an output consisting of voltage-free relay contacts,
feeding equipment that provides a voltage to distinguish "on" this
morning from "off" this afternoon.
Weird... so why are the boosters so expensive? Just because they need
battery back-up in the event of a power failure?
23 Aug
23 Aug
1:17 a.m.
1. I have an Ultra 5 I'll dig it out.
2. Serial Comms.
Get a breakout box with LEDS, dip switches and patch wires.
Attach one side only and check for active signals (Leds on).
Disconnect and check the other side.
Start by connecting pins 2,3 and 7 cross 2 and 3 if the same pin is
active.
Check both ends for speeds, bits per character, number of stop bits per
character and parity. 9600,8,1,N is a good starting point.
You will be surprised how many systems will work with this setup.
Regards
?
Rod Smallwood
?
?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 22 August 2011 22:22
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work
On 08/22/2011 04:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
There were a few "smart cables". Many years ago I used one that was
called, I think, "Smart Cable". ;) It had a plastic chassis with a few
feet of ribbon cable coming out of each end. There were one or two
slide switches on it. I don't recall much more about it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The thing that
annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not
symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge.
OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do
you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the
time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving the
DSR signal, but not always.
My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto-
detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined
via active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and
CTS? It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power
supply issues.
2:49 a.m.
Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you may have missed the fact
that I solved my problem. I used a breakout box to determine the cable I
needed. It was very simple, Rx and Tx crossed over and CTS and RTS shorted
together at the PC end.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood
Sent: 23 August 2011 09:18
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'
Subject: RE: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work
1. I have an Ultra 5 I'll dig it out.
2. Serial Comms.
Get a breakout box with LEDS, dip switches and patch wires.
Attach one side only and check for active signals (Leds on).
Disconnect and check the other side.
Start by connecting pins 2,3 and 7 cross 2 and 3 if the same pin is
active.
Check both ends for speeds, bits per character,
number of stop bits per
character and parity. 9600,8,1,N is a good starting point.
You will be surprised how many systems will work with this setup.
Regards
Rod Smallwood
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-
bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 22 August 2011 22:22
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work
On 08/22/2011 04:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
There were a few "smart cables". Many years ago I used one that was
called,
The thing
that annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not
symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge.
OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do
you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the
time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving
the DSR signal, but not always.
My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto-
detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined via
active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and CTS?
It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power supply
issues. I think, "Smart Cable". ;) It had a plastic
chassis with a few feet of
ribbon cable
coming out of each end. There were one or two slide
switches on it. I
don't
recall much more about it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
8:51 a.m.
Rob Jarratt wrote:
Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you may
have missed the fact
that I solved my problem. I used a breakout box to determine the cable I
needed. It was very simple, Rx and Tx crossed over and CTS and RTS shorted
together at the PC end.
And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into
a theoretical discussion. ;)
Peace... Sridhar
9:21 a.m.
On 8/23/2011 11:51 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Rob Jarratt wrote:
Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over
real technical problems. Of course. :)
Keith
Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you
may have missed the fact
that I solved my problem.
And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into
a theoretical discussion. ;)
Peace... Sridhar
10 a.m.
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Keith M wrote:
On 8/23/2011 11:51 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
??
What "off-topic BS" has there been in THIS thread?
Or, is ANYTHING other than the answer to one specific current problem
"off-topic BS"?
discussion of appropriate tools?
discussion of procedures to determine an answer?
'twould seem that so far, this thread has been as technical as the
original request, and on-topic for this list, even if people were
interested in the TOPIC, not just stating the answer to this specific
problem.
We apologize for the technical discussion of fishing V giving him a fish
for his Sun Ultra.
Oh, well. Build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night; set a man
on-fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
I'm not even sure that I would agree with your "off-ropic BS" valuation if
I were to have looked up and reported the details of a known FATALITY from
the frustration of RS232 interfacing.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
Rob Jarratt wrote:
Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over
real technical problems. Of course. :) Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you
may have missed the fact
that I solved my problem.
And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into
a theoretical discussion. ;)
Peace... Sridhar
10:09 a.m.
On 08/23/2011 01:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
??
What "off-topic BS" has there been in THIS thread?
A 64-bit multi-hundred-MHz UltraSPARC system.
Go have some coffee, Fred. Jeeze. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
And you may have missed the fact that this
conversation has evolved into
a theoretical discussion. ;)
Peace... Sridhar
Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over
real technical problems. Of course. :)
10:54 a.m.
On 8/23/2011 1:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
<snip>
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
*plonk*
12:37 p.m.
Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always
takes precedence over
real technical problems. Of course. :)
How is a discussion of the RS232 intreface and tools/equipment to get it
working off-topic? Like it or not, the RS232 interface is commonly
available on classic computers, meeting vairous 'standards' :-). there
are laos, I beilve RS232 interfacesa for more modern machines (I am sure
I've seen USB-RS232 cables). Linijng classic computers toghetr, or
linking them to modern machiens for the purposes of data transfer (either
archiving that whihc is on the calssic machine, or transfering software
from the web (say) orto the classic mahcine) would
appeer to be 100% _on_
topic.
-tony
4:02 p.m.
On 23/08/2011 20:37, Tony Duell wrote:
Sure. Every one of my team has a personal-issue USB-to-RS232/DE9 serial
adapter, because they're so useful, and I keep two or three in strategic
places in the machine rooms as well (so the systems guys don't keep
trying to steal^X borrow ours).
A few of our more recent laptop purchases were chosen on the specific
basis that they have RS232 serial ports. Never mind the latest CPU and
gigabytes of RAM, if it runs Kermit and/or supports PuTTY in serial line
mode, it's good.
Why? Because as quite a lot of people reading this are already aware,
modern network switches from almost every major vendor (Cisco, HP,
Juniper, Extreme, etc) as well as most proper servers and many disk
shelves have RS232 console ports (or LOM[1] ports), which is how you
initially configure them, even if the ports are sometimes RJ45-style
jacks rather than DE9s.
[1] Lights-Out Management
Hahaha.
Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over
real technical problems. Of course. :)
How is a discussion of the RS232 intreface and tools/equipment to get it
working off-topic? Like it or not, the RS232 interface is commonly
available on classic computers, meeting vairous 'standards' :-). there
are laos, I beilve RS232 interfacesa for more modern machines (I am sure
I've seen USB-RS232 cables). Linijng classic computers toghetr, or
linking them to modern machiens for the purposes of data transfer (either
archiving that whihc is on the calssic machine, or transfering software
from the web (say) orto the classic mahcine) would appeer to be 100% _on_
topic.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
4:32 p.m.
On 24 Aug 2011 at 0:02, Pete Turnbull wrote:
Why? Because as quite a lot of people reading this are
already aware,
modern network switches from almost every major vendor (Cisco, HP,
Juniper, Extreme, etc) as well as most proper servers and many disk
shelves have RS232 console ports (or LOM[1] ports), which is how you
initially configure them, even if the ports are sometimes RJ45-style
jacks rather than DE9s.
It isn't just switches; many consumer devices have, if not RS-232
ports, headers (usually 3V logic levels) to hook to a traditional
serial line. I have a DTV converter box with a DE9M--hooking a
9600N81 terminal to it gets me an interactive debug display at
powerup.
My DSL router has a set of 4 pads that are a serial tty console
hookup for the BusyBox Linux.
I have a FAX send/receive box from the early 90's that has a set (10)
of pads that hook to the serial I/O interface on the NEC V40 CPU.
Since the thing also has a 1.44M floppy interface, I've gotten it to
run CP/M 86.
I suspect that if I probe around in some of my other consumer
appliances, I'd find that anything with a decent-sized MPU in it has
a serial interface for some purpose.
One little item I keep around for such stuff is a TTL/CMOS board with
an MAX232N hookup to translate those logic levels to RS232C ones.
Very handy...
--Chuck
7:37 p.m.
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 24 Aug 2011 at 0:02, Pete Turnbull wrote:
I find it rather amusing that the latest crop of televisions often have
rs232 ports.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Why? Because as quite a lot of people reading
this are already aware,
modern network switches from almost every major vendor (Cisco, HP,
Juniper, Extreme, etc) as well as most proper servers and many disk
shelves have RS232 console ports (or LOM[1] ports), which is how you
initially configure them, even if the ports are sometimes RJ45-style
jacks rather than DE9s.
It isn't just switches; many consumer devices have, if not RS-232
ports, headers (usually 3V logic levels) to hook to a traditional
serial line. I have a DTV converter box with a DE9M--hooking a
9600N81 terminal to it gets me an interactive debug display at
powerup. 
9:54 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
10:02 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 08/23/2011 12:54 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
I smell suits!
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
10:20 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 08/23/2011 12:54 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
I smell suits!
Overlaid with the unmistakable stench of MBA.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
10:56 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 08/23/2011 01:20 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Yep. Makes me want to barf.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I smell suits!
Overlaid with the unmistakable stench of MBA.
25 Aug
25 Aug
1:20 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
Gene Buckle wrote:
With a fecesesque underlying aroma of asshat.
Peace... Sridhar
I smell suits!
Overlaid with the unmistakable stench of MBA.
23 Aug
23 Aug
10:48 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 23 Aug 2011 at 13:02, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 08/23/2011 12:54 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
I smell suits!
It should be pointed out to these guys that ICANN has a procedure for
arbitrating domain name disputes and that they should take their
dispute to the apropriate ICANN division--or offer to purchase the
domain name outright.
Threatening letters are a way of life for tort ghouls. An
appropriately worded (in only the way a good lawyer can) response
often puts a stop to such things.
--Chuck
11:27 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
I suspect that most companies with ties to computing's past really
don't really understand or care about fans of ancient hardware and
software. Atari's heavy-handedness is a good example in the realm of
"small iron" but examples can be found in the "large iron" realm
favored by many people on this list too... Mentec/successor's
stonewalling of the PDP-11 community and IBM's occasional lash-outs
against Hercules come to mind quickly.
Mike
11:36 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 08/23/2011 02:27 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
I suspect that most companies with ties to
computing's past really
don't really understand or care about fans of ancient hardware and
software. Atari's heavy-handedness is a good example in the realm of
"small iron" but examples can be found in the "large iron" realm
favored by many people on this list too... Mentec/successor's
stonewalling of the PDP-11 community and IBM's occasional lash-outs
against Hercules come to mind quickly.
Well IBM is losing real money. Atari, today, is irrelevant. What is
it that they think they're going to accomplish?
Someone should just buy them, open up the intellectual property, and
fire all the idiot suits who work there. Should cost about eight bucks.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
8:31 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
thats how they make their money though and atari was bought out
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 08/23/2011 02:27 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
I suspect that most companies with ties to
computing's past really
don't really understand or care about fans of ancient hardware and
software. Atari's heavy-handedness is a good example in the realm of
"small iron" but examples can be found in the "large iron" realm
favored by many people on this list too... Mentec/successor's
stonewalling of the PDP-11 community and IBM's occasional lash-outs
against Hercules come to mind quickly.
Well IBM is losing real money. Atari, today, is irrelevant. What is it
that they think they're going to accomplish?
Someone should just buy them, open up the intellectual property, and fire
all the idiot suits who work there. Should cost about eight bucks.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
8:36 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
Sure. But knowing about their treachery doesn't make it honorable.
-Dave
On 08/23/2011 11:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
thats how they make their money though and atari was
bought out
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Dave McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 08/23/2011 02:27 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
>
>> I suspect that most companies with ties to computing's past really
>> don't really understand or care about fans of ancient hardware and
>> software. Atari's heavy-handedness is a good example in the realm of
>> "small iron" but examples can be found in the "large iron"
realm
>> favored by many people on this list too... Mentec/successor's
>> stonewalling of the PDP-11 community and IBM's occasional lash-outs
>> against Hercules come to mind quickly.
>>
>
> Well IBM is losing real money. Atari, today, is irrelevant. What is it
> that they think they're going to accomplish?
>
> Someone should just buy them, open up the intellectual property, and fire
> all the idiot suits who work there. Should cost about eight bucks.
>
> -Dave
>
>
> --
> Dave McGuire
> Port Charlotte, FL
>
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
24 Aug
24 Aug
12:34 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 8/23/2011 11:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Sure. But knowing about their treachery doesn't make it honorable.
-Dave
It's despicable. It is exactly because of these fan forums and sites
that Atari even has any fans in 2011. And to slap the hand of the people
who make your brand viable takes balls and effrontery that is unmatched.
If that was my site, it would only be coming down after a ruling from a
judge with jurisdiction over me.
What asshats.
Keith
12:43 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
if they didn't do this they loose their copyright though
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Keith M <keithvz at verizon.net> wrote:
On 8/23/2011 11:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Sure. But knowing about their treachery doesn't make it honorable.
-Dave
It's despicable. It is exactly because of these fan forums and sites that
Atari even has any fans in 2011. And to slap the hand of the people who make
your brand viable takes balls and effrontery that is unmatched.
If that was my site, it would only be coming down after a ruling from a
judge with jurisdiction over me.
What asshats.
Keith
12:58 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On Wed, 24 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote:
if they didn't do this they loose their copyright
though
Good god. Look, it's a TRADEMARK. atari2600.org was registered over 10
years ago. Because they didn't do anything about it then, they can't do
anything about it now. If the poor guy can afford to fight it, he will
win.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel
This fits under both Estoppel by silence and Laches.
I just wish I was a lawyer so I could help the guy for free.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
1:06 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 08/24/2011 03:43 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
if they didn't do this they loose their copyright
though
Even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, it's still pointless.
Their stuff left the realm of commercial relevancy over twenty years
ago. It is only of historic and nostalgic interest now. Those suits
going after this is just a desperate grab for (nonexistant) money. It
reeks of suitly sleaziness and a whole lot of cluelessness, aside from
being assholes.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
4:48 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 8/24/2011 3:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 08/24/2011 03:43 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
I'm not saying that I agree with their tone and methods, but there are
legitimate reasons (that you would appreciate) for doing things like this.
If they fail to show vigorous defense of the name, they open the door
for other firms to use the name for monetary gain for products of
dubious value without hope of winning a suit against them. Yes, Atari
could (and would) file a suit against the firms, but they do so in a
significantly weakened position. Thus, even though they risk alienating
their core customers, these letters form a paper trail that show the
court a vigorous defense. My point: If you don't want some dodgy
company to make a crappy product and trick buyers into thinking it's an
Atari item, consider your position on these C&Ds carefully. I see it
not as a "desperate grab for money" as much as a "ensuring no one else
tries to make a quick grab fr cash using the name".
Again, I see this as a "robot" email, and it did not take into account
the particulars of the site. As well, vigorously defending your name
does not have to mean sending out nasty letters like this. Finally,
ignoring it is not a good idea. Retaining an attorney, expensive though
it might be, to draft a competent letter demanding to know the details
of the infringement (written in proper legalese, as someone else
suggested) will quickly deal with this issue.
No, IANAL, but I have done the research, since I use the Commodore name
in certain product listings and such.
If this sort of thing becomes more prevalent (which it might),
enthusiasts might need to form "associations" that can handle protecting
or dealing with these things. The links would be on a association's
site (portal), etc.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
if they didn't do this they loose their
copyright though
Even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, it's still
pointless. Their stuff left the realm of commercial relevancy over
twenty years ago. It is only of historic and nostalgic interest now.
Those suits going after this is just a desperate grab for
(nonexistant) money. It reeks of suitly sleaziness and a whole lot of
cluelessness, aside from being assholes.
-Dave
8:03 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
Hi Jim! Responses in-line.
On 8/24/2011 7:48 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
My point: If you don't want some dodgy
company to make a crappy product and trick buyers into thinking it's an
Atari item, consider your position on these C&Ds carefully. I see it
not as a "desperate grab for money" as much as a "ensuring no one else
tries to make a quick grab fr cash using the name".
Again, I see this as a "robot" email, and it did not take into account
the particulars of the site. As well, vigorously defending your name
does not have to mean sending out nasty letters like this.
I guess that's why I think they need to distinguish between the sites,
and handle them accordingly.
You don't treat a commercial for-profit organization who is trying to
pass off consumer ready equipment as true-blue new Atari equipment the
same as a hobbyist who like to write his own software and run it on
retro hardware.
This doesn't take hours of professional analysis to figure this out. I
can look at a website and tell you within about two minutes the
motivation and purpose of a site. If it's a commercial venture, C&D
them as much as you want.
My problem is the whole collateral damage thing.
Atari doesn't seem to give a shit that they are in the process of
destroying a community of their fans that took years to build. Perfectly
legal resources are disappearing daily now because of the threats.
Certain emulators aren't being distributed any more.
The stifling of legal research, hardware development, software
development, and first amendment protected communication is disgusting.
The fact that it's lazy lawyering, like others mentioned, doesn't excuse
the behavior.
If this sort of thing becomes more prevalent (which it
might),
enthusiasts might need to form "associations" that can handle protecting
or dealing with these things. The links would be on a association's
site (portal), etc.
It's a shame that this even needs done. It feels like extortion.
If a site were to actually be sued, I would (like to) think that the EFF
would step up and defend them. They've represented people on much weaker
legal ground.
Keith
29 Aug
29 Aug
6:05 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
Yes.. Atari is going after everyone who is using their trademark name and logo.
They HAVE too, otherwise they lose their trademark.
http://phillipsgivenslaw.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-does-one-lose-their-trade…
"1. Failure to prosecute infringers. ?I can not tell you how important it is to
prosecute (prevent) trademark infringers from unlawfully using your trademark. ?If you do
not, your trademark is considered weak. ? Furthermore, if you take no action to prevent
infringers and their use of your trademark is overwhelming, you can lose your
trademark rights. ?Essentially, your trademark will lose its uniqueness
to your product or service."
Here is the case of Shelby losing the trademark of his Cobra because he didn't defend
it in the first place.
http://jalopnik.com/5681447/carroll-shelby-loses-trademark-fight-over-cobra…
If you have a trademark and everyone copies it and you don't defend it, you will lose
it.
7:12 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 8/29/2011 9:05 AM, Christian Liendo wrote:
Yes.. Atari is going after everyone who is using their
trademark name
and logo.
They HAVE too[sic], otherwise they lose their trademark.
<snip>
If you have a trademark and everyone copies it and
you don't defend
it, you will lose it.
A bunch of people have already made this observation.
Atari has failed to defend their trademark for at least 10 or 11 years,
probably longer.
If what you are saying is true, haven't they already lost it?
Keith
7:50 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
No one posted the links..
I saw one person say " On what basis do you claim this? Got a cite in law?"
So I posted a link and an example.
Have they lost it? Thats up for a court to decide. It's IP law.
You may think what you want about Atari, but they are still a "live" company
that still makes games.
Problem is that they hired IP lawyers who have no knowledge about the retro community.
They could and should do this on a case by case basis and allow limited licenses to sites
that benefit them as a brand.
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith M <keithvz at verizon.net>
A bunch of people have already made this observation.
Atari has failed to defend their trademark for at least 10 or 11 years,
probably longer.
If what you are saying is true, haven't they already lost it?
Keith
8:39 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 29 Aug 2011 at 6:05, Christian Liendo wrote:
Yes.. Atari is going after everyone who is using their
trademark name
and logo.
They HAVE too, otherwise they lose their trademark.
The original statement was "they will lose their copyright". That's
a completely different kettle of fish. Copyrights are not forfeit
due to lack of aggressive defense. For an example of this, consider
the song "Happy Birthday to You"--even with all of the legal
disputes, Warner Bros. apparently still collects royalties.
You "abandonware" adherents should consider this when you decide to
distribute "free" software. It's illegal, and in the USA, a felony.
Don't like it? Get the law changed--I'll back you up.
But we've been here before. If you still maintain that copyrights
can be voided by lack of an aggressive defense, please cite the case
law.
Trademarks are a completely different matter and involve a very
different body of law. (cf. "Kleenex").
--Chuck
9:12 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 29 Aug 2011 at 6:05, Christian Liendo wrote:
Which I pointed out was _completely_ wrong. :)
Yes.. Atari is going after everyone who is using
their trademark name
and logo.
They HAVE too, otherwise they lose their trademark.
The original statement was "they will lose their copyright". That's
You "abandonware" adherents should consider
this when you decide to
distribute "free" software. It's illegal, and in the USA, a felony.
Don't like it? Get the law changed--I'll back you up.
Something tells me the heat death of the universe will occur before the
law gets changed. There's just too many congresscritters on the payroll
of entertainment companies for it to ever come to pass. (ha!)
Note that because software is often a work-for-hire, you can be assured
that we'll ALL be long dead before those titles legally enter the public
domain - providing of course they're EVER permitted to. I suspect as soon
as Mickey Mouse comes close to his (new, purchased in the late 90's)
expiry date, Disney will buy themselves a new Senator and they'll get it
pushed out to 250 years or so after the death of the author.
But we've been here before. If you still maintain
that copyrights
can be voided by lack of an aggressive defense, please cite the case
law.
He can't - he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
Trademarks are a completely different matter and
involve a very
different body of law. (cf. "Kleenex").
...or "Xerox". ("hey, can you xerox me a copy of that?")
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
9:28 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
He can't - he doesn't know what the hell
he's talking about.
I hate to say this, but this list needs a lawyer.
I am on a completely unrelated list that has a lawyer that will chime
up and set things straight - very handy.
Of course, on this list, there are plenty of "experts" that don't
believe the experts, so it might be a lost cause.
--
Will
9:52 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
That would be cool, especially one that hadn't already been lobotomized by
an MBA. :)
He can't -
he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
I hate to say this, but this list needs a lawyer.
I am on a completely unrelated list that has a lawyer
that will chime
up and set things straight - very handy.
I bet!
Of course, on this list, there are plenty of
"experts" that don't
believe the experts, so it might be a lost cause.
I'm not one of those. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
10:26 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 08/29/2011 12:52 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Will is. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Of course, on
this list, there are plenty of "experts" that don't
believe the experts, so it might be a lost cause.
I'm not one of those. :)
9:58 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
The latest couple messages reminded me of this song written by the ....
ummm...futuristic sex robots, called ummmm, f*** the MPAA.
Lyrics here
http://www.lyricsaction.com/f/futuristic+sex+robotz/fuck+the+mpaa-lyrics.htm
song here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNS7IqmZBbA
This is nerd-core hip-hop for those uninitiated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerdcore_hip_hop
For a better song, "Back in the Day" is pretty funny for those of us who
lived through the 1980's-ish computing period described.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0HKHbJceAw
Keith
10:03 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 29 Aug 2011 at 9:12, Gene Buckle wrote:
Something tells me the heat death of the universe will
occur before
the law gets changed. There's just too many congresscritters on the
payroll of entertainment companies for it to ever come to pass. (ha!)
Any guesses on how Golan v. Holder will turn out? My guess is that
the Supreme Court will decree that US treaties trump the US
Constitution, as has been the case with most WTO-related rulings.
I don't know if the issue of "restored copyright" affects any
computer materials from the old Soviet Union, but it's possible--and
something to bear in mind.
--Chuck
24 Aug
24 Aug
11:54 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On 08/24/2011 07:48 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
I'm not saying that I agree with their tone and methods, but there are
legitimate reasons (that you would appreciate) for doing things like this.
If they fail to show vigorous defense of the name, they open the door
for other firms to use the name for monetary gain for products of
dubious value without hope of winning a suit against them. Yes, Atari
could (and would) file a suit against the firms, but they do so in a
significantly weakened position. Thus, even though they risk alienating
their core customers, these letters form a paper trail that show the
court a vigorous defense. My point: If you don't want some dodgy company
to make a crappy product and trick buyers into thinking it's an Atari
item, consider your position on these C&Ds carefully. I see it not as a
"desperate grab for money" as much as a "ensuring no one else tries to
make a quick grab fr cash using the name".
I must begrudgingly admit that this makes a great deal of sense.
It's a real shame that our society and our legal system is so utterly
screwed up that this kind of thing happens.
if they didn't do this they loose their copyright
though
Even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, it's still pointless.
Their stuff left the realm of commercial relevancy over twenty years
ago. It is only of historic and nostalgic interest now. Those suits
going after this is just a desperate grab for (nonexistant) money. It
reeks of suitly sleaziness and a whole lot of cluelessness, aside from
being assholes. If this sort of thing becomes more prevalent (which it
might),
enthusiasts might need to form "associations" that can handle protecting
or dealing with these things. The links would be on a association's site
(portal), etc.
I think this is a really good idea.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
5:54 p.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
. . . and NO, it is not "abandonware"!
23 Aug
23 Aug
11:02 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
Perhaps these French guys should file suit against the Finnish
police. From Wikipedia:
"Atari, abbreviation of Finnish registry term "ammatti- ja
taparikollinen" ("professional and habitual criminal") used by
Finnish police"
Reality is sometimes stranger than fiction...
--Chuck
10:20 a.m.
New subject: Atari going after retro community?
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
I'd reply with "Estoppel, bitch."
..but that's just me. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
3:28 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sridhar Ayengar [mailto:ploopster at gmail.com]
Sent: 23 August 2011 16:51
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Rob Jarratt
Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work
Rob Jarratt wrote:
I had indeed noticed that the conversation has moved on :-)
I was only replying to a reply which was still actually trying to solve my
problem, and I didn't want anyone to waste time trying to help me further
when I didn't need any more help.
Regards
Rob
Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you
may have missed the
fact that I solved my problem. I used a breakout box to determine the
cable I needed. It was very simple, Rx and Tx crossed over and CTS and
RTS shorted together at the PC end.
And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into a
theoretical discussion. ;)
Peace... Sridhar
22 Aug
22 Aug
2:29 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any
"gender auto-
detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined
via active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and
CTS? It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power
supply issues.
Certainly.
Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s?
They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human
being with an LED tester and a breakout box.
2:50 p.m.
On 22 Aug 2011 at 14:29, Fred Cisin wrote:
Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s?
They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human
being with an LED tester and a breakout box.
Thanks; I wasn't sure if I'd seen them or not. I suppose a "not
awfully smart" cable that consisted of a multipole double-throw
switch would work about as well.
If I need to, use one of my little jumper blocks (DB25F and DB25M and
spaghetti inbetween) to fix any DTE/DCE conflicts (I also have DB25F-
DB25F and DB25M-DB25M "straight through) jumpers to resolve gender
issues).
--Chuck
23 Aug
23 Aug
11:22 a.m.
Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s?
I've always been curious as to exactly what these contain, and what th
eswtiches set. Any clues?
They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human
being with an LED tester and a breakout box.
I think it's always the case that a clueful person armed with test gear
will beat a simple 'automatic' device...
-tony
24 Aug
24 Aug
4:05 p.m.
> Would you like a few "RS232 Smart
Cable"s?
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
I've always been curious as to exactly what these
contain, and what th
eswtiches set. Any clues?
I think the contents would be disappointing, and prob'ly not worth
breaking them open. They are glued. I could prob'ly cut the glue joint
and pry one open, but it would be much more fun to use a LARGE mallet ot
open it.
I have two here.
Most here could design something as good in as long as it takes my to type
this, and I'm sure that Tony could build one faster than that.
The first one is model SC817. It has three red LEDs (labelled M, T, and
D) and one slide switch (unmarked).
The other one is model SC817. (just so we know which one is which)
It has 5 LEDs and two switches. The first 3 LEDs and switch are the same
as on model SC817. But, on this one (model SC817), there are two more
LEDs and a 3 throw slide switch.
They obviously
do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human
being with an LED tester and a breakout box.
I think it's always the case that
a clueful person armed with test gear
will beat a simple 'automatic' device...
25 Aug
25 Aug
11:15 a.m.
> Would you like a few "RS232 Smart
Cable"s?
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
I've always been curious as to exactly what
these contain, and what th
eswtiches set. Any clues?
I think the contents would be disappointing, and prob'ly not worth
breaking them open. They are glued. I could prob'ly cut the glue joint
and pry one open, but it would be much more fun to use a LARGE mallet ot
open it.
I have two here.
Most here could design something as good in as long as it takes my to type
this, and I'm sure that Tony could build one faster than that.
Oh,. I probably coudl :-). I am always curious to see what others have
designed, though... Only be sure to call it, please, 'Research' :-)
The first one is model SC817. It has three red LEDs (labelled M, T, and
D) and one slide switch (unmarked).
The other one is model SC817. (just so we know which one is which)
It has 5 LEDs and two switches. The first 3 LEDs and switch are the same
as on model SC817. But, on this one (model SC817), there are two more
LEDs and a 3 throw slide switch.
A much better and slightly less offensive wording.
I hae an intense dislike of 'automatic' ssytems, particularly if you
can't override them . I've suffered with software installation programs
that isisnte that drive G: (on an MS-DOS PC) can't possibly be a floppy
drive (hint : think of loadable device drivers...). And with
automatic-exposure cameras that won't let me set the exposure I want to
get the result I want. No, I want a devie that does what I want it to do,
and I'll take the consequences.
-tony
They
obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human
being with an LED tester and a breakout box.
I think it's always the case that
a clueful person armed with test gear
will beat a simple 'automatic' device...
2:06 p.m.
> I think the contents would be disappointing, and
prob'ly not worth
> breaking them open. They are glued. I could prob'ly cut the glue joint
> and pry one open, but it would be much more fun to use a LARGE mallet ot
> open it.
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
I preFer to open things up in the least destructive
way possible. Often
That depends on the thing, and whether re-assembly is to be considered.
Unlike ARD, some of us sometimes feel that the greatest value that some
things have may be as a recipient of mindless brutal violence. (even
though neither SC817 bears any resemblance to a college administrator)
the reason for opening some is at least to investigate
the internals, if
not repair them, so the less damage done the batter. Hitting it with a
mallet/hammer could break an intenral PCB (if there is one) making
tracing tracks a lot harder...
Well, the largest mallet that I have handy is only 4 pounds, so I'm going
to mail it to Poughkeepsie, instead. THAT might subject it to enough
impact(s) to open it. If not, then somebody else can maturely and
carefully unseal it.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
26 Aug
26 Aug
10:34 a.m.
I preFer to
open things up in the least destructive way possible. Often
That depends on the thing, and whether re-assembly is to be considered. Unlike ARD, some of us sometimes feel that the
greatest value that some
things have may be as a recipient of mindless brutal violence. (even
I don;t think I ever do anything 'mindlessly'. I try to have a good
reason for everything I do.
Well, the largest mallet that I have handy is only 4
pounds, so I'm going
to mail it to Poughkeepsie, instead. THAT might subject it to enough
impact(s) to open it. If not, then somebody else can maturely and
carefully unseal it.
A Michael Flanders said 'The new way to split the atom : Send it through
the post marked 'fragile'' :-)
-tony
23 Aug
23 Aug
11:16 a.m.
My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any
"gender auto-
detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined
I don;t remeebr any truely automatic ones, but there were things with a
few LEDs and sldie switches where you fiddled with the switches until the
maximum numbero LEDs were alight and that was supposed to make the right
connections. I assume a couple of the LEDs monitored TxD and RxD on one
of the ends of the cvble, one of the switched did a straight or cross
conection so that by setting aid swithc until both LEDs glowed, you had
the right connections for TxD and RxD. Well, unless the device was
receivbe-only in which case you couldn't tell which setting was the right
one..
I never had such a cable, as I said earlier I prefer to know exactly
which signals each end is driving.
-tony
19 Aug
19 Aug
9:04 a.m.
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- On Fri, 8/19/11, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at
ntlworld.com> wrote:
This thread is timely - I have been offered an Ultra 5 to pick up this
weekend. I don't know anything about it except that it will come with
Solaris 8 media.
I'm already on the Suns-at-Home list, but I'm curious if anyone here
has any recommended upgrades (specific models of PCI SCSI or video
cards, in particular). I'm hoping it has the max 512MB of RAM, but if
not, I'll probably want to seek that upgrade out too.
If it all pans out, I'll probably retire my old SPARC5 that I've been
using on and off as a Solaris nest for 10 years.
-ethan
Should I expect to be able to boot the machine
from the
serial port, log in etc?
Yes. You should be able to see all the boot diagnostic messages, as well as the firmware
and the OS (if installed). Try 9600 8/n/1
11:19 a.m.
On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:04:13 -0400
Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
specific models of PCI SCSI
NCR / Symbios / LSI
from 53C810 up to at least 53C895 should
Just Work (C) (R) (TM).
or video cards, in particular
On U5s I allways
used the on board video. You will need a Sun branded
PCI framebuffer. The UPA slot in the U5 is not usable.
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
11:31 a.m.
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
Good to know about the UPA.
Thanks,
-ethan
On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:04:13 -0400
Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
Cool. Those should be easy to find. I have a DEC shelf loaded with
18GB and 36GB drives, so I'd like to be able to continue to use it.
specific models of PCI SCSI
NCR / Symbios
/ LSI from 53C810 up to at least 53C895 should
Just Work (C) (R) (TM). or video
cards, in particular
On U5s I allways used the on board video. You will need a Sun
branded
PCI framebuffer. The UPA slot in the U5 is not usable.
12:05 p.m.
On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:31:51 -0400
Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
The limitation is purely
mechanical due to the enclosure. The U10 uses
an identical mainboard can and be fitted with a UPA framebuffer.
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
The UPA slot
in the U5 is not usable.
Good to know about the UPA. 
1:20 p.m.
On 8/19/11 1:31 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend.
Doc
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Jochen Kunz<jkunz
at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
On U5s I
allways used the on board video. You will need a Sun branded
PCI framebuffer. The UPA slot in the U5 is not usable.
Good to know about the UPA.
1:45 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Doc Shipley <doc at vaxen.net> wrote:
?Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your
Friend.
Why is that better than X?
(I've been running Solaris or Linux as my primary desktop/laptop OS at
home and at work for nearly all of the past 8 years, so "VNC clients
run on Windows" is not helpful to me).
-ethan
1:53 p.m.
On 08/19/2011 04:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Doc didn't suggest Windows..
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Honestly,
with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend.
Why is that better than X?
(I've been running Solaris or Linux as my primary desktop/laptop OS at
home and at work for nearly all of the past 8 years, so "VNC clients
run on Windows" is not helpful to me).
2:03 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 08/19/2011 04:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
?Doc didn't suggest Windows..
No he did not, but I wanted to short circuit any answers resembling
"because VNC is easier to get working on Windows than X" type answers.
I really do want to know why VNC is better than X - specifically in
the environment of sitting on a machine that's already running an X
server and firing off X client programs on a SPARC box. What does VNC
get me that X doesn't? i.e. - why would I want to load something
that's not included out of the box. What's the payoff?
-ethan
?Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend.
Why is that better than X?
2:11 p.m.
On 08/19/2011 05:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Doc didn't suggest Windows..
No he did not, but I wanted to short circuit any answers resembling
"because VNC is easier to get working on Windows than X" type answers.
Ahh ok, good thinking. It isn't, but I suspect you know that. ;)
Honestly,
with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend.
Why is that better than X? I really do want to know why VNC is better than X -
specifically in
the environment of sitting on a machine that's already running an X
server and firing off X client programs on a SPARC box. What does VNC
get me that X doesn't? i.e. - why would I want to load something
that's not included out of the box. What's the payoff?
The relatively bad bus bandwidth combined with the lackluster
performance of the video hardware that is supported on that machine will
result in pretty miserable interactive performance.
Of course sitting in front of a machine that's already running X and
displaying stuff back to it from the Ultra5 is the right way to do
things, but Windows has really dumbed down the real world of graphical
user interfaces so everyone seems to think "remote GUI" means
"brute-forcedly copying the entire 'screen' (whether it exists or not)
to another host". (no offense intended to the rabid Windows folk
here...I'll save that for another day ;))
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
2:26 p.m.
On 8/19/11 4:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Dave
McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
My experience with Sun framebuffers has been less than stellar.
There are some *very* good ones, but not common and not cheap. Plus,
every Ultra5 I've messed with was noisy as hell.
So, with a good network and a Linux/MacOSX/$UNIX VNC client, you can
get as good or better desktop performance remotely as you would running
X locally.
Doc
On 08/19/2011 04:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Doc didn't suggest Windows..
No he did not, but I wanted to short circuit any answers resembling
"because VNC is easier to get working on Windows than X" type answers.
I really do want to know why VNC is better than X - specifically in
the environment of sitting on a machine that's already running an X
server and firing off X client programs on a SPARC box. What does VNC
get me that X doesn't? i.e. - why would I want to load something
that's not included out of the box. What's the payoff?
Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend.
Why is that better than X?
2:32 p.m.
On 8/19/11 4:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Dave
McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Oops, I didn't parse your question correctly. I answered why VNC is
better than *local* X server on the U5...
I find that I like the "desktop-in-a-window" aspect of VNC. It keeps
me more conscious of what's running where. Plus, I just like the CDE
desktop (yeah, shoot me now....) Other than that, or even considering
that, the choice of VNC vs remote client running on a good X server is
purely personal taste.
Doc
On 08/19/2011 04:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Doc didn't suggest Windows..
No he did not, but I wanted to short circuit any answers resembling
"because VNC is easier to get working on Windows than X" type answers.
I really do want to know why VNC is better than X - specifically in
the environment of sitting on a machine that's already running an X
server and firing off X client programs on a SPARC box. What does VNC
get me that X doesn't? i.e. - why would I want to load something
that's not included out of the box. What's the payoff?
Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend.
Why is that better than X?
12:48 p.m.
On 08/19/2011 12:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
This thread is timely - I have been offered an Ultra 5
to pick up this
weekend. I don't know anything about it except that it will come with
Solaris 8 media.
I'm already on the Suns-at-Home list, but I'm curious if anyone here
has any recommended upgrades (specific models of PCI SCSI or video
cards, in particular). I'm hoping it has the max 512MB of RAM, but if
not, I'll probably want to seek that upgrade out too.
If it all pans out, I'll probably retire my old SPARC5 that I've been
using on and off as a Solaris nest for 10 years.
First, be aware that the Ultra5 and Ultra10 systems are garbage.
They are essentially PCs with low-end UltraSPARC CPUs in them. This
system will NOT be up to the standard of quality that you've come to
expect from Sun based on your SPARCstation-5.
There is one processor module that I consider "useful" on those
systems; it's a 440MHz CPU with 2MB of cache. The others (all of them I
think) have tiny-to-the-point-of-being-useless caches and are very, very
slow.
You'll definitely want to put a SCSI host adapter in there. The
onboard IDE controller is slower than pissing tar. The right SCSI host
adapter is a Symbios sym22801; they are supported by OBP for booting and
are good performers.
If you're serious about replacing your SPARCstation-5 with a new(er)
64-bit Sun system, I strongly recommend against the Ultra5, even if it
is free. Be aware that the Ultra10 is essentially the same machine in a
different chassis. I'd point you in the direction of something like an
Ultra60, which is (IMO) one of the finest workstation-class systems Sun
has ever built. They can easily be found as freebies nowadays, will run
rings around an Ultra5 of any configuration, and are built like tanks.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
1:13 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 08/19/2011 12:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Yes. I know they are not as sturdy or as elegant. OTOH, I used to
use a U5 everyday for Solaris software development. I remember
appreciating my $100 SPARC5-70 I used at home at the time. It was
fine for what I did, as long as I didn't need to do any serious web
browsing - limited memory was my most serious problem, IIRC.
This thread is timely - I have been offered an
Ultra 5 to pick up this
weekend.
?First, be aware that the Ultra5 and Ultra10 systems are garbage. They are
essentially PCs with low-end UltraSPARC CPUs in them. ?This system will NOT
be up to the standard of quality that you've come to expect from Sun based
on your SPARCstation-5. ?There is one processor module that I consider
"useful" on those systems;
it's a 440MHz CPU with 2MB of cache. ?The others (all of them I think) have
tiny-to-the-point-of-being-useless caches and are very, very slow.
I will look for that when I look at the box. Thanks.
?You'll definitely want to put a SCSI host adapter
in there. ?The onboard
IDE controller is slower than pissing tar.
I don't recall feeling the OS was sluggish in the U5 I used 8-9 hrs a
day, but I didn't ask more of it than to run a fistful of xterm
windows and sometimes a browser.
?The right SCSI host adapter is a
Symbios sym22801; they are supported by OBP for booting and are good
performers.
Good to know. Thanks.
?If you're serious about replacing your
SPARCstation-5 with a new(er) 64-bit
Sun system, I strongly recommend against the Ultra5, even if it is free. ?Be
aware that the Ultra10 is essentially the same machine in a different
chassis.
I did know the U5 and U10 were essentially the same machine in different boxes.
?I'd point you in the direction of something like
an Ultra60, which
is (IMO) one of the finest workstation-class systems Sun has ever built.
?They can easily be found as freebies nowadays, will run rings around an
Ultra5 of any configuration, and are built like tanks.
I have a Netra T1125 - it's a rack-mount U60 with the keyboard and
mouse and UPA ports blocked off.
Fine for a server; not so fine for a server+X-workstation.
There are lots of Suns and Sun owners around here (Central Ohio). I
get offered lesser machines (SS10s and SS20s seem to be popular to
ditch right now) several times a year. Nobody local has yet asked to
have hauled away anything in the U30 and up range.
-ethan
1:49 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >
There are lots of Suns and Sun owners around here
(Central Ohio). I
get offered lesser machines (SS10s and SS20s seem to be popular to
ditch right now) several times a year. Nobody local has yet asked to
have hauled away anything in the U30 and up range.
-ethan
Most of those old SUNs have oddball dead batteries people don't feel like
spending money to replace. SUNs don't seem that popular here in NE Ohio, the
few I have seen were in the process of getting recycled. Sparc equipment on
eBay seems to have gone up in price with fewer items being offered (not
worth shipping, not that many collectors maybe?).
I have an ultra 5 with 512MB (333 model)and the correct SCSI card with a
36GB 10K drive , seems ok for the little I did with it (Solaris 8/ Debian
SPARC). A while ago I tried to boot it and found the battery had died, did
the coin cell hack but never did get the network address setup again to use
it.
9:35 a.m.
On Fri, 19 Aug 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Some time ago I was given a Sun Ultra 5. My intention
is not to keep it, but
I would like to see if I can get it to work first before finding a new owner
for it.
It did not come with a keyboard, so I have been trying to get something out
of the serial port, I believe that when there is no keyboard attached it
uses the serial port.
As others have said, I can confirm as I've started talking to my U5 within
the last week: You need a null modem cable (cross-over on TX/RX and
RTS/CTS) and set the terminal to 8,n,1 9600bps. The serial ports are
listed "PORT A" and "PORT B", the PORT A is the DB25 that is slightly
higher up in the rear of the chassis, this is the one that console will
come on.
I have mine working with a VT240, currently, without issue.
Anyone have any U5 memory that'd be willing to sell?
- JP
2:39 p.m.
I got it working by crossing pins 2 and 3 and connecting CTS to RTS on the
PC side. I connected it to a DB25 connector next to the VGA connector, which
is what the diagram I have shows. There is a DB9 port above it and another
DB25 next to the higher DB9, I have no idea what these are although I
suppose they might be extra serial ports.
I am currently trying to decide whether I should keep this machine. Is there
anyone interested in it who would like to collect it? I am in Manchester in
the UK. It has 256MB of memory and a disk of about 8GB. That is all I know
about it.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin
Sent: 19 August 2011 17:36
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work
On Fri, 19 Aug 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote:
the
Some time ago I was given a Sun Ultra 5. My
intention is not to keep
it, but I would like to see if I can get it to work first before
finding a new owner for it.
It did not come with a keyboard, so I have been trying to get
something out of the serial port, I believe that when there is no
keyboard attached it uses the serial port.
As others have said, I can confirm as I've started talking to my U5 within last week: You need a null modem cable (cross-over on
TX/RX and
RTS/CTS) and set the terminal to 8,n,1 9600bps. The serial ports are
listed
"PORT A" and "PORT B", the PORT A
is the DB25 that is slightly higher up
in the
rear of the chassis, this is the one that console will
come on.
I have mine working with a VT240, currently, without issue.
Anyone have any U5 memory that'd be willing to sell?
- JP
20 Aug
20 Aug
12:04 a.m.
On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:39:48 +0100
"Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
There is a DB9 port above it and another
DB25 next to the higher DB9, I have no idea what these are although I
suppose they might be extra serial ports.
The DE9 is serial port B and the other
DB25 is a PeeCee style parallel
port. These two ports sit on a slot bracket and are connected via
cables to the mainboard. I.e. serial port A is easy to locate as it is
the only serial port with DB25 connector on the main board.
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
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