24 Jan
2013
24 Jan
'13
2:27 p.m.
http://northtech.us/content/20130123/end-era-rip-fafner
I only got to use it a few times, but it was nice to be able to
connect to some real iron (I still have an account on the LCM's
11/785, I think). Service is continued on an Alpha DS20, but
my username seems to be a bit broken at the moment.
Many thanks to Dr. Ulmann for running such a majestic machine
at considerable personal expense for all to use!
- Dave
25 Jan
25 Jan
12:51 p.m.
On 24-jan-2013 23:27, David Riley wrote:
Nice article, did you write it?
I only got to use it a few times, but it was nice to
be able
to connect to some real iron (I still have an account on the
LCM's 11/785, I think). Service is continued on an Alpha DS20,
but my username seems to be a bit broken at the moment.
Yes, for that reason I also really like(d) FAFNER::! Lots of
great software on it, too (e.g. Rdb, LaTeX and more).
I couldn't log in either, so best is to ask for your password
to be reset and then Telnet and change it. (I wonder how he
transferred the user accounts from FAFNER:: to FASOLT::, but
the passwords or user group password 'policy' somehow didn't
survive.)
It was quite funny, actually. I wasn't aware that FAFNER::
was to be shut down, nor any intention thereto, at the time.
I hadn't logged on in a while (in my estimation, a month or
two/three) and then I was presented with... "Welcome to
OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V8.3". Then I
sent an e-mail and everything became clear, I was also shown
that video on YouTube (also embedded in the article).
It's actually a DS20E, not DS20. The DS20E is a much nicer
system, if you ask me. The DS20 looks like a strangely
modernized/retrofitted EV6 AlphaServer 1000/A. The DS20E
is much leaner, allows for a bit more flexibility in terms
of storage and so on and provides EV67 and (earlier) EV68
CPU support. Speaking of the DS20 and for the sake of
comparison, EISNER:: (of DECUServe/Encompasserve) is an
actual DS20.
FASOLT:: will also be a system that won't have any issues
with SSH access. For FAFNER::, it was a bit problematic
I heard. (Although, I think mostly because of software
reliability/stability issues in UCX and not so much the
hardware lacking adequate processing power...)
Many thanks to Dr. Ulmann for running such a majestic
machine
at considerable personal expense for all to use!
Same here!
Speaking of expenses, I originally had the idea to host a remote
(and at some point even public) access VMS I64 access. I had a
bunch of maximized rx2600s and rx2620s with "Montecito" (dual-
core, HT, VT-x, etc.) processors, 24 Gbytes RAM per system, GbE
and 10GbE MSCP/VMScluster'ed, shared storage, etc. ... but, it
would've been too expensive... hot and noisy, especially during
summers.
I sold off a bunch of system. I only have one rx2620 left and
my 'pristine'/'mint' DS15 will be gone soon as well.
It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a dishonorable
death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system
than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is
today...
- MG
1:05 p.m.
On 01/25/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote:
It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a
dishonorable
death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system
than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is
today...
Sure looks like it's still under development to me..
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:19 p.m.
On 25-jan-2013 22:05, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/25/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote:
I once thought the same...
(Did you see the transcript that Stephen Hoffman posted from that
presentation/seminar at HP Discover 2012, from a few months ago,
on comp.os.vms?)
- MG
It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such
a dishonorable
death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system
than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is
today...
Sure looks like it's still under development to me.. 
2:26 p.m.
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, MG wrote:
On 25-jan-2013 22:05, Dave McGuire wrote:
If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should port it to amd64.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
On 01/25/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote:
I once thought the same...
(Did you see the transcript that Stephen Hoffman posted from that
presentation/seminar at HP Discover 2012, from a few months ago,
on comp.os.vms?) It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such
a dishonorable
death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system
than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is
today...
Sure looks like it's still under development to me..
3:45 p.m.
On Jan 25, 2013, at 5:26 PM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should
port it to amd64.
For the market it's generally aimed at, IA64 is a great
architecture now that the compilers have matured somewhat.
Poulson looks quite competitive, actually. If they want
more *mainstream* acceptance, AMD64 isn't a bad choice,
but it doesn't look like that's where they want to go
(and indeed, not where they make most of their money on
VMS or HP-UX).
- Dave
5:24 p.m.
On Jan 25, 2013, at 5:45 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 25, 2013, at 5:26 PM, David Griffith
<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
IA64, yeah- hitch your wagon to that.
If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they
should port it to amd64.
For the market it's generally aimed at, IA64 is a great
architecture now that the compilers have matured somewhat.
Poulson looks quite competitive, actually. If they want
more *mainstream* acceptance, AMD64 isn't a bad choice,
but it doesn't look like that's where they want to go
(and indeed, not where they make most of their money on
VMS or HP-UX).
- Dave 
5:26 p.m.
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, David Griffith wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, MG wrote:
I would just _drool_ over that. *wistful sigh*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On 25-jan-2013 22:05, Dave McGuire wrote:
If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should port it to amd64. On 01/25/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote:
I once thought the same...
(Did you see the transcript that Stephen Hoffman posted from that
presentation/seminar at HP Discover 2012, from a few months ago,
on comp.os.vms?) It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such
a dishonorable
death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system
than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is
today...
Sure looks like it's still under development to me..
26 Jan
26 Jan
4:39 p.m.
On 25-jan-2013 23:26, David Griffith wrote:
If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should
port
it to amd64.
They should either way do that. I'd love to run VMS on my
newly assembled 3.1 GHz quad-core Core i7 3770S mini-PC with
16 Gbytes DDR3 DC-RAM, fast SSD disk and so forth. It would
sure be a nice break from hearing the rather noisy rx2620 all
the time.
- MG
25 Jan
25 Jan
2:32 p.m.
On 01/25/2013 05:19 PM, MG wrote:
I once thought the same...
(Did you see the transcript that Stephen Hoffman posted from that
presentation/seminar at HP Discover 2012, from a few months ago,
on comp.os.vms?)
Nope...but people have been predicting the "imminent death" of VMS for
twenty years, so I generally disregard statements of same, even if
they're from Hoff himself.
In other words, "we'll see".
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a
dishonorable
death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system
than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is
today...
Sure looks like it's still under development to me..
3:16 p.m.
On Jan 25, 2013, at 15:51, MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
On 24-jan-2013 23:27, David Riley wrote:
Nice article, did you write it?
I didn't, it was pointed to by Ian Miller from HP's OpenVMS
group via Twitter.
I couldn't log in either, so best is to ask for
your password
to be reset and then Telnet and change it. (I wonder how he
transferred the user accounts from FAFNER:: to FASOLT::, but
the passwords or user group password 'policy' somehow didn't
survive.)
Already done. When I logged in, I read the mail from the 13th
stating his intention to do so to weed out inactive users,
which seemed eminently reasonable. All my files were
preserved, anyway.
It's actually a DS20E, not DS20. The DS20E is a
much nicer
system, if you ask me. The DS20 looks like a strangely
modernized/retrofitted EV6 AlphaServer 1000/A. The DS20E
is much leaner, allows for a bit more flexibility in terms
of storage and so on and provides EV67 and (earlier) EV68
CPU support. Speaking of the DS20 and for the sake of
comparison, EISNER:: (of DECUServe/Encompasserve) is an
actual DS20.
I wasn't aware there was that much of a difference. It looks
like I could land a DS20E off eBay for about $1000, which
is a little rich for my blood (at the moment, anyway).
I sold off a bunch of system. I only have one rx2620
left and
my 'pristine'/'mint' DS15 will be gone soon as well.
I saw your notes about that on this list a few months ago, and
would gladly have taken your offer if we were on the same
continent; as willing as you were to ship overseas, it would
have been too much for me. :-)
It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a
dishonorable
death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system
than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is
today...
If their Twitter representation and recent expansion of
the hobbyist program is any indication, they're doing no such
thing. My impression is that they make enough off their
established shops to keep it alive, and hopefully the expansion
of the hobbyist program will take it places it otherwise
wouldn't go. I just wish I could run it on modern hardware
that didn't cost an arm and a leg; I like the idea of Itanium,
and Poulson looks like it's the first generation that
could compete in the semi-mainstream, but even very
used Tukwila and Montecito models sell for over $1000.
- Dave
26 Jan
26 Jan
6:02 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 6:16 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
wouldn't go. I just wish I could run it on modern
hardware
that didn't cost an arm and a leg; I like the idea of Itanium,
and Poulson looks like it's the first generation that
could compete in the semi-mainstream, but even very
used Tukwila and Montecito models sell for over $1000.
They certainly can, although I've seen Integrity rx2620s (for example)
well under the $1k mark on EBay. In fact, there's one right now for
$325 + $45 shipping (I have no connection to seller).
Like another poster mentioned, I too have been contemplating picking
up some cheap Integrity hardware and a shared disk array for playing
around with a VMS/I64 cluster, so I've been watching the prices off
and on for a little while.
-Andy
27 Jan
27 Jan
3:37 a.m.
On 26-jan-2013 15:02, Andrew Hoerter wrote:
Like another poster mentioned, I too have been
contemplating picking
up some cheap Integrity hardware and a shared disk array for playing
around with a VMS/I64 cluster, so I've been watching the prices off
and on for a little while.
Where are you located? I have a dual "Montecito" (dual-core, HT,
VT-x, etc.) HP rx2620, with 24 Gbytes RAM (can lower it to, say, 8
Gbytes), PCI-X card cage (or additionally/alternatively, an AGP +
PCI-X card cage), N+1 redundant power (dual PSUs) and many PCI-X
options, incl. various (mostly LSI 1030T dual-channel Ultra320 and
Ultra160 SCSI LVD/SE RAID and non-RAID HBAs, GbE and 10GbE NICs,
Radeon 7500 AGO and PCI cards, etc.). It's located in Europe,
the Netherlands more specifically.
- MG
2:29 p.m.
On 1/25/13 12:51 PM, "MG" <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
On 24-jan-2013 23:27, David Riley wrote:
Nice article, did you write it?
If people have requests for software on LCM's VAX-11/780-5, please don't
hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in the community.
-- Ian
I only got to use it a few times, but it was nice
to be able
to connect to some real iron (I still have an account on the
LCM's 11/785, I think). Service is continued on an Alpha DS20,
but my username seems to be a bit broken at the moment.
Yes, for that reason I also really like(d) FAFNER::! Lots of
great software on it, too (e.g. Rdb, LaTeX and more).
9:39 p.m.
On Jan 28, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/27/2013 05:29 PM, Ian King wrote:
If you ask nicely, yes. Same policy as their PDP-10s. I
have an account, though I have to admit to only having
logged in once before my supply of tuits ran dry.
- Dave
If people have requests for software on LCM's
VAX-11/780-5, please don't
hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in the community.
Is this a public-access machine?
28 Jan
28 Jan
3:32 a.m.
On 27-jan-2013 23:29, Ian King wrote:
If people have requests for software on LCM's
VAX-11/780-5, please
don't hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in
the community.
-- Ian
That sounds excellent. I haven't heard of that system before. Where
and how can I access it? (Or perhaps a web site with administrative
contact information and such?)
- MG
4:50 a.m.
On Jan 28, 2013, at 6:32 AM, MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
On 27-jan-2013 23:29, Ian King wrote:
http://livingcomputermuseum.org
Get Involved->Request a Login
(I'd link it directly, but it's an ugly link that might well change
in the future; the webmaster might consider putting a redirect at
something like /get_a_login that can be permalinked).
- Dave
If people have requests for software on LCM's
VAX-11/780-5, please
don't hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in
the community.
-- Ian
That sounds excellent. I haven't heard of that system before. Where
and how can I access it? (Or perhaps a web site with administrative
contact information and such?) 
8:57 a.m.
The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are numerous compilers, if you're into
languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since
I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big
iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-)
- Earl
11:34 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 08:57:30AM -0800, Earl Evans wrote:
The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are numerous
compilers, if you're into
languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since
I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big
iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-)
It may be fun but it isn't "big iron!"
29 Jan
29 Jan
2:23 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 08:34 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 08:57:30AM -0800, Earl Evans
wrote:
Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what does?
/P
The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are
numerous compilers, if you're into
languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since
I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big
iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-)
It may be fun but it
isn't "big iron!"
2:39 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:23:17AM +0100, Pontus wrote:
On 01/29/2013 08:34 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled and
doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 08:57:30AM -0800, Earl
Evans wrote:
Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what
does? The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are
numerous compilers, if you're into
languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since
I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big
iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-)
It may be fun but it
isn't "big iron!"
3:06 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29-jan-2013 11:39, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it
isn't watercooled
and doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
You could've also just said: 'Cuz IBM sez so!
- MG
7:04 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29 January 2013 05:39, <microcode at zoho.com> wrote:
Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it
isn't watercooled and
doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
By that logic, the only machines that count are the System/360 Model
85 and the 195.
Since the other S/360s and S/370s were air-cooled.
This is based on what I've experienced by reading some miscellaneous
manuals, if the later System/370 machines have watercooling, I have no
idea.
Cheers,
Christian
7:18 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:04:24AM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
On 29 January 2013 05:39, <microcode at
zoho.com> wrote:
No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I
remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through
S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more
powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled.
Everywhere I ever worked until the CMOS days had watercooled machines and
raised floor. That was the real "big iron" worthy of being called machines.
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_intro4.html
Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it
isn't watercooled and
doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
By that logic, the only machines that count are the System/360 Model
85 and the 195.
Since the other S/360s and S/370s were air-cooled. 
7:45 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water
cooled as far as I
remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through
S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more
powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled.
I do not know about that...I have a 4331, and it is slow as molasses
and dry as a bone.
--
Will
8:05 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, William Donzelli wrote:
Will, got any pics of your machine? What's the difference between a 4331
and a 4331-K2?
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
No. Every
series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I
remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through
S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more
powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled.
I do not know about that...I have a 4331, and it is slow as molasses
and dry as a bone.
12:17 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29 January 2013 10:18, <microcode at zoho.com> wrote:
No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water
cooled as far as I
remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through
S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more
powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled.
Based on the 1979 IBM sales manual (go find it on BitSavers), the only
models of System/370 that mention water cooling are the 168, 3032 and
3033.
Also, based on the 1974 System/360 physical planning installation
manual, the only two System/360 models that required liquid cooling
were... the model 85 and model 195.
So, by your logic of "big iron" only counting as an IBM machine that
requires a raised floor and watercooling... the label only applies to
the aforementioned machines.
I would think, though I am most definitely not an expert, that a
System/360 Model 65 counts as a mainframe and as big iron, doesn't it?
Cheers,
Christian
P.S. Both manuals, as well as other manuals all mention that any of
the machines can be installed without a raised floor, if safety
precautions are taken, and accomodations made for cabling the machines
on a non-raised floor.
12:43 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29/01/2013 20:17, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
On 29 January 2013 10:18, <microcode at
zoho.com> wrote:
I ran a 4361 in a college class room without a raised floor.
Total pain
but IBM had no issues installing it...
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was
water cooled as far as I
remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through
S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more
powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled.
Based on the 1979 IBM sales manual (go find it on BitSavers), the only
models of System/370 that mention water cooling are the 168, 3032 and
3033.
Also, based on the 1974 System/360 physical planning installation
manual, the only two System/360 models that required liquid cooling
were... the model 85 and model 195.
So, by your logic of "big iron" only counting as an IBM machine that
requires a raised floor and watercooling... the label only applies to
the aforementioned machines.
I would think, though I am most definitely not an expert, that a
System/360 Model 65 counts as a mainframe and as big iron, doesn't it?
Cheers,
Christian
P.S. Both manuals, as well as other manuals all mention that any of
the machines can be installed without a raised floor, if safety
precautions are taken, and accomodations made for cabling the machines
on a non-raised floor.
12:51 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 03:17 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
I can tell you that the 3090 is as well. Likely a whole lot of
others, but definitely the 3090.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
No. Every
series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I
remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through
S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more
powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled.
Based on the 1979 IBM sales manual (go find it on BitSavers), the only
models of System/370 that mention water cooling are the 168, 3032 and
3033. 
1:34 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 12:17 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
I would think, though I am most definitely not an
expert, that a
System/360 Model 65 counts as a mainframe and as big iron, doesn't it?
Definitions change with time and technology.
Some would doubtless refer to a 360/30 as a mainframe. From a CDC 6600
or 7600 viewpoint, however, it was a little bitty machine. I'm not even
certain if "minicomputer" had made it into general usage by 1965.
Certainly there were other machines of that time (and earlier) that
could be called "minicomputers"--for example, the Packard-Bell
PB250--but never were--the term didn't exist then.
And then how about the nitrogen-cooled boxes, such as the ETA 10?
Physically smaller than many minicomputers.
It's just pointless to invent distinctions. It's like the Supreme Court
definition of pornography--I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I
know it when I see it.
--Chuck
12:35 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29/01/2013 15:18, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:04:24AM -0500, Christian
Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
How can you manage to get
so many misconceptions into a couple of
sentences...
Over the years IBM have slipped in and out of water cooling. The "lowly"
43xx machines were all air cooled. S/360 and most S/370 were mostly air
cooled. Water cooling is expensive....
The high end VAX machines are faster than the low end 4331 which is real
sluggard when it comes to non-word aligned operations (as is the
original 9370) but I am note sure I would class either the 4331 or the
9371 as "mainframes"...
When I worked for the Natural Environment Research Council I am sure we
always rated out single CPU 4381 model 4 about the same as our biggest
VAX., which I think was a 8000 but I can't actually remember. Again I am
not too sure if the 4381 is a main frame or a very big fast mid-range
box, but in its day it was popular...
Earlier than that we certainly considered out Honeywell L66 a mainframe
but that wasn't water cooled either. ...
I don't think there is real definition of a Mainframe, its what you want
it to be at the time....
On 29 January 2013 05:39, <microcode at
zoho.com> wrote:
No. Every series until the IBM
CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I
remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through
S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more
powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled. Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it
isn't watercooled and
doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
By that logic, the only machines that count are the System/360 Model
85 and the 195.
Since the other S/360s and S/370s were air-cooled. Everywhere I ever worked until the CMOS days had
watercooled machines and
raised floor. That was the real "big iron" worthy of being called machines.
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_intro4.html
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
1:23 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
Over the years IBM have slipped in and out of water
cooling. The "lowly"
43xx machines were all air cooled. S/360 and most S/370 were mostly air
cooled.
And even ES/9000 - only the 9021 high end machines were water cooled.
The 9121 and 9221 were air cooled.
--
Will
3:09 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 1/29/13 3:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
And if I remember correctly, IBM currently has a fluid-cooled system
in production, the POWER7 "Power 775" model.
Doc
Over the years
IBM have slipped in and out of water cooling. The "lowly"
43xx machines were all air cooled. S/360 and most S/370 were mostly air
cooled.
And even ES/9000 - only the 9021 high end machines were water cooled.
The 9121 and 9221 were air cooled. 
3:06 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
I don't think there is real definition of a
Mainframe, its what you want
it to be at the time....
What is especially funny is when computer ILLiterates, such as college
administrators, think that it is two words "main frame", and think that
that means the box that the computer is in, aka "the Tower". ("That
Computer Hardware class should teach people how to open the tower, and
replace boards in the main frame, so that they can fix things like
"File Not Found". When I was in the classroom, I often had to fix
things in the main frame.") (They are why same connectors can never
be used for multiple things!)
(Our district DID have an IBM mainframe with CICS accessible with 3270
emulation)
6:40 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 05:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Don't be silly, that bit is the hard drive. The computer is the bit which
shows all the pretty pictures... :-(
I don't
think there is real definition of a Mainframe, its what you want
it to be at the time....
What is especially funny is when computer ILLiterates, such as college
administrators, think that it is two words "main frame", and think that
that means the box that the computer is in, aka "the Tower".
7:33 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 09:40 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
Don't be silly, that bit is the hard drive. The computer is the bit
which shows all the pretty pictures... :-(
I'm reminded of the guy a few apartments down from us when I was in my
teens, in the early 1980s. A friend of his got "a computer". He said
he saw "the TV, the typewriter, and the disk drive".
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I don't think there is real definition of a
Mainframe, its what you want
it to be at the time....
What is especially funny is when computer ILLiterates, such as college
administrators, think that it is two words "main frame", and think that
that means the box that the computer is in, aka "the Tower". 
4:08 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 08:18 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than the
biggest VAX ever
made) was watercooled.
Wrong on both counts. The 43XX machines were air cooled. The "biggest
VAX ever made" would have been either a VAX 9000 or VAX 10000, depending
on what you mean by "biggest". The VAX 9000 aggregate processor
performance was over 100 MIPS, vs. about 10 MIPS for the fastest 4381.
The VAX 10000 is significantly faster than that. Also the VAX 10000 has
substantially more I/O bandwidth than the 4381.
Maybe you were thinking of a high-end ES/9000, rather than the 43XX?
6 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29/01/13 7:08 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On 01/29/2013 08:18 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
Dudes,
End the thread already. Big iron is defined as "Palletised. Local pickup
only."
--T
Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than
the biggest VAX ever
made) was watercooled.
Wrong on both counts. The 43XX machines were air cooled. The "biggest
VAX ever made" would have been eitherurmom or... 
6:36 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 1/29/2013 6:00 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
On 29/01/13 7:08 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
yup. that works.
--S
On 01/29/2013 08:18 AM, microcode at zoho.com
wrote:
Dudes,
End the thread already. Big iron is defined as "Palletised. Local
pickup only."
--T
Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than
the biggest VAX ever
made) was watercooled.
Wrong on both counts. The 43XX machines were air cooled. The "biggest
VAX ever made" would have been eitherurmom or...
12:04 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29 January 2013 05:39, <microcode at zoho.com> wrote:
Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it
isn't watercooled and
doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"?
machines made buy other than IBM can never be considered "Big Iron"??
machines that sit on a concrete slab can never be considered "Big Iron"???
6:59 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 1/29/2013 7:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
On 29/01/13 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
And how well is that working out? :|
And they say Global Warming is a myth.
> freon
cooled can never be considered "Big iron"?
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chuck
Guzis wrote:
Yes, but what cools the freon?
the planet? 
7:40 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
Einstein said everything is relative. Compared to a raspberry PI, one 7 foot rack with a
pdp11/20 and
On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:38 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 1/29/2013 7:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
On 29/01/13 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
And how well is that working out? :|
And they say Global Warming is a myth.
> freon
cooled can never be considered "Big iron"?
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chuck
Guzis wrote:
Yes, but what cools the freon?
the planet?
7:43 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Roe Peterson <roe at liveblockauctions.com> wrote:
Einstein said everything is relative. Compared to a
raspberry PI, one 7 foot rack with a pdp11/20 and
Oops, sorry
And two RK05 disk drives is big iron, IMHO, even though the PI kills the PDP in every
possible way as far as performance is concerned.
It's all about perception.
And, btw, the IBM 360/370 series sucked. IMHO :-)
On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:38 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> On 1/29/2013 7:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> On 29/01/13 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>>> freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"?
>>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>>> Yes, but what cools the freon?
>>>
>>> the planet?
>>
>>
>> And how well is that working out? :|
>
> And they say Global Warming is a myth.
>
>
>
7:56 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
>>> freon cooled can never be considered
"Big iron"?
>> Yes, but what cools the freon?
> the planet?
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Toby Thain wrote:
And how well is that working out? :|
Seems to need a few details worked out!
1:04 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
Namens Fred Cisin
Verzonden: dinsdag 29 januari 2013 21:04
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: Re: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29 January 2013 05:39, <microcode at zoho.com> wrote:
No no, you don't get it, if it isn't tube based it never can be "Big
Iron"
;P
Semiconductors and non-delay-line- or mercury based memories and other
modernity's don't belong in 'BIG IRON' ..
-Rik
Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it
isn't watercooled
and doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"?
machines made buy other than IBM can never be considered "Big Iron"??
machines that sit on a concrete slab can never be considered "Big Iron"???
2:15 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
> > Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370.
If it isn't watercooled
> > and doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
> freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"?
> machines made buy other than IBM can never be considered "Big Iron"??
> machines that sit on a concrete slab can never be considered "Big Iron"???
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Rik Bos wrote:
No no, you don't get it,
TRUE
if it isn't tube based it never can be "Big
Iron"
;P
Semiconductors and non-delay-line- or mercury based memories and other
modernity's don't belong in 'BIG IRON' ..
Ah! So something can be big, and can be iron, but modern stuff just
doesn't have the "BIG IRON" character!
30 Jan
30 Jan
1:23 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
No no, you don't get it, if it isn't tube
based it never can be "Big Iron"
;P
Semiconductors and non-delay-line- or mercury based memories and other
modernity's don't belong in 'BIG IRON' ..
What have you got against Williams tubes?
-tony
29 Jan
29 Jan
1:22 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On 29 January 2013 05:39, <microcode at zoho.com> wrote:
Perhaps the definition of "big iron" changes with the times, relative
to the average
size of the equipment of the day... consider (for instance) how many 2U servers
one could fit in the space of a fully decked-out 11/70 rig. Not sure the term
"minicomputer" is really fitting anymore.
Just my .02c/
Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it
isn't watercooled and
doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini.
freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"?
machines made buy other than IBM can never be considered "Big Iron"??
machines that sit on a concrete slab can never be considered "Big Iron"???
4:43 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Jan 29, 2013, at 5:23, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
On 01/29/2013 08:34 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
It's not a mainframe, but I'd still call it "big iron" relative to
the size of most machines today. The LCM's KL10 (which,
by the way, doesn't seem to be responding over Telnet)
would certainly qualify. Fun exercise in semantics: does the
TOAD-1 qualify?
- Dave
On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 08:57:30AM -0800, Earl
Evans wrote:
Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what does? The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are
numerous compilers, if you're into
languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since
I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big
iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-)
It may be fun but it
isn't "big iron!"
7:08 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 29 January 2013 07:43, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
It's not a mainframe, but I'd still call it
"big iron" relative to
the size of most machines today. The LCM's KL10 (which,
by the way, doesn't seem to be responding over Telnet)
would certainly qualify. Fun exercise in semantics: does the
TOAD-1 qualify?
Depends on whether you use the term "big iron" to refer exclusively to
mainframes and superminis, or as any form of big system.
In the former case the TOAD-1 is most definitely "big iron" as it is a
descendant of the KL-10, which is most assuredly a mainframe.
In the latter case, not so much.
Cheers,
Christian
7:22 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:08:11AM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
In the former case the TOAD-1 is most definitely
"big iron" as it is a
descendant of the KL-10, which is most assuredly a mainframe.
DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did AFAIK.
It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX is big iron
from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a
500-thread post ;-)
Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron.
7:52 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever
asserted they did AFAIK.
It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX is big iron
from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a 500-thread post ;-)
Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron.
VAX 9000 was marketed as a mainframe.
You may want to check your sources. I could write a post pointing out
all the fails you have made in the past few posts, but I have a
business to run (namely, so I can buy more mainframes).
--
Will
8:18 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:52:43AM -0500, William Donzelli wrote:
I normally killfile all your posts like many other people on the list but I
am testing a new email client and this got through anyway.
Here's the Ken Olsen interview at the Smithsonian. The word "mainframe"
doesn't appear at all, but "mini" and "minicomputer" are words he
uses to
describe DEC. I think he knows better than you, although I concede later DEC
marketers did make a feeble attempt to call the VAX 9000 a mainframe.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/comphist/olsen.html
Here's Gordon Bell's page at Microsoft. It's entitled "Minicomputer
Industry
Overview and Formation".
You won't see Bell claiming DEC ever built a mainframe either. He realized
DEC was in the minicomputer business.
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/Digital/DECMuseum.htm
Just because DEC's marketing people tried to convince people who never saw
anything bigger than a mini they had a new mainframe doesn't make it real.
DEC never made
a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did AFAIK.
It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX is big iron
from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a 500-thread post ;-)
Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron.
VAX 9000 was marketed as a mainframe.
You may want to check your sources. I could write a post pointing out
all the fails you have made in the past few posts, but I have a
business to run (namely, so I can buy more mainframes).
9:47 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
I normally killfile all your posts like many other
people on the list but I
am testing a new email client and this got through anyway.
Yeah right whatever.
Here's the Ken Olsen interview at the Smithsonian.
The word "mainframe"
doesn't appear at all, but "mini" and "minicomputer" are words he
uses to
describe DEC. I think he knows better than you, although I concede later DEC
marketers did make a feeble attempt to call the VAX 9000 a mainframe.
And all I claimed in my post was that the VAX 9000 was marketed as a
mainframe. No other VAX were mentioned.
--
Will
8:03 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis
are not big iron.
You've obviously never dropped an RA-81 on your foot. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
10:02 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
From: "geneb" <geneb at deltasoft.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 5:03 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
Mini, micro, mainframe ... so what? As long as you enjoy the machine
who cares what you (or other people) want to call it. Why must it fit in
some predefined box?
Amen! Those RA81 disk drives ARE heavy, some 67 kilos?
Thank Goodness, my feet never felt their full (falling) weight.
But I will be remembered to the fullest extend, because I have to
move three RA81 next week ... plus RM03, TU77, two 11/70,
one 11/10 and my "rebuilt" 11/60 ... I am counting the
DECwriter III and VT55 as some of the "smaller items"!
My back already aches from the past few weeks, but next week
will be the final haul from the old house. Storage is of course a
major problem now, but ... looking at the sunny side,
no more double mortgage payments every month, hurray!
- Henk.
Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis.
Minis are not big iron.
You've obviously never dropped an RA-81 on your foot. :)
g.
11:25 a.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On 01/29/2013 07:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
My back already aches from the past few weeks, but
next week
will be the final haul from the old house.
I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get
the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up
a "server room". Here is a preview:
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/
/P
12:06 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
Namens Pontus
Verzonden: dinsdag 29 januari 2013 20:26
Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On 01/29/2013 07:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
the
My back already aches from the past few weeks,
but next week will be
the final haul from the old house.
I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get new house in order. I'm currently working in my
new garage to set up a
"server
room". Here is a preview:
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/
/P
Mmm, you won't have heating problems there ;)
-Rik
12:27 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
> room". Here is a preview:
>
> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/
>
> /P
I'm very jealous of that raised flooring. *wistful sigh*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
1:25 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 3:27 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> room". Here is a preview:
>>
>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/
Very nice.
I'm very jealous of that raised flooring. *wistful
sigh*
It's inspiring me to deploy mine. I have about 120 full and partial
tiles and "mushroom stands" from a place I used to work that closed
down a while back.
-ethan
11:05 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On 01/29/2013 10:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Very nice.
Thank you.
It's inspiring me to deploy mine. I have about
120 full and partial
tiles and "mushroom stands" from a place I used to work that closed
down a while back.
It is not very hard. If you, like me, have a very uneven floor then it's
worth it!.
/P
12:28 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
From: "Pontus" <pontus at update.uu.se>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:25 PM
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On 01/29/2013 07:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
Nice pictures, love to see the other sides :-) A raised floor is also nice!
Those tiles are no good either for your back!
First I need to save some money to relax the mortgage on my current house,
then we (my wife and I) will move for the last time(...) How the house looks
is
her department, as long as there is at least 40 square meters (60 is better)
well insolated, heated and strong floor for my approx 7 tons of DEC stuff.
I will take some pictures in the next weeks of things that appeared I had
completely forgotten about. For example the RRD40 CD-ROM drive *with*
those peculiar "claw" disc (disk?) holders, and an RM03 Test Unit.
I even had forgotten that I have an 11/23+ , a new VT101 in its original
carton storage box and the two original KM11 maintenance boards with
four switches and light bulbs to diagnose the 11/20, 11/40, and RK05.
The latter was a real surprise, I do know I have Guy Sotomayor's (I hope
I got that correct) KM11 replica 2-board kit with the light mask plates, but
really did not know I also had the original ones!
So, when I am recovering my back, there will be time to take pictures :-)
- Henk.
PS. More pictures from anybody are always nice to look at. Thanks Pontus.
I'd say "more, more, more"!
My back already aches from the past few weeks,
but next week
will be the final haul from the old house.
I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get
the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up a
"server room". Here is a preview:
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/
/P 
1:21 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On Jan 29, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
The latter was a real surprise, I do know I have Guy Sotomayor's (I hope
I got that correct) KM11 replica 2-board kit with the light mask plates, but
really did not know I also had the original ones!
Yes, you got it right! ;-)
Cool about the originals!
TTFN - Guy
11:10 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On 01/29/2013 09:28 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
Nice pictures, love to see the other sides :-) A
raised floor is also
nice!
Pictures from my previous apartment show the other sides of some of the
gear:
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/
Eventually there will be an update, when the new place is somewhat in order.
Those tiles are no good either for your back!
Tell me about it, I still have an aching arm from lifting (and cleaning)
all tiles.
I will take some pictures in the next weeks of things
that appeared I had
completely forgotten about.
I have also reached the point where I forget what I own and get
pleasantly surprised to rediscover hardware.
So, when I am recovering my back, there will be time to take pictures :-)
Looking forward to it, take your time :-)
/P
12:54 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On 29-jan-2013 20:25, Pontus wrote:
I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see
some pics when you get
the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up
a "server room". Here is a preview:
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/
Nice SGIs!
- MG
2 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
In article <5108371C.2010405 at xs4all.nl>,
MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> writes:
On 29-jan-2013 20:25, Pontus wrote:
I count 2 indys, 1 Indigo^2 and an Octane.
It's a little fuzzy, but there *may* be an IRIS [123]x00 workstation
in the pic with the Octane.
Am I missing something?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will
see some pics when you get
the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up
a "server room". Here is a preview:
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/
Nice SGIs!
11:13 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On 01/29/2013 11:00 PM, Richard wrote:
I count 2 indys, 1 Indigo^2 and an Octane. It's a
little fuzzy, but
there *may* be an IRIS [123]x00 workstation in the pic with the
Octane. Am I missing something?
It is an IRIS 3130. You missed the skinless O2k, but you have to know
exactly where to look. In storage I have plenty of other SGI.
/P
4:41 p.m.
New subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?]
On 1/29/13 12:25 PM, Pontus wrote:
On 01/29/2013 07:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
Now that is cool! Raised floor and the whole 9 yards. Hopefully we'll get
to see it in action when you're finished setting things up. :)
Dave Land
Land Computer Service
My back already aches from the past few weeks,
but next week
will be the final haul from the old house.
I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get
the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up
a "server room". Here is a preview:
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/
/P
12:08 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
Mini, micro, mainframe ... so what? As long as you
enjoy the machine who
cares
what you (or other people) want to call it. Why must
it fit in some
predefined
box?
Amen! Those RA81 disk drives ARE heavy, some 67 kilos?
Thank Goodness, my feet never felt their full (falling) weight.
But I will be remembered to the fullest extend, because I have to move
three
RA81 next week ... plus RM03, TU77, two 11/70, one
11/10 and my "rebuilt"
11/60 ... I am counting the DECwriter III and VT55 as some of the "smaller
items"!
My back already aches from the past few weeks, but next week will be the
final
haul from the old house. Storage is of course a major
problem now, but ...
looking at the sunny side, no more double mortgage payments every month,
hurray!
- Henk.
Gefeliciteerd Henk,
Now you can go on..
-Rik
3:13 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 03:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
If you can live inside it, it's a mainframe.
If you can live inside it with your feet sticking out, it's a mini.
Everything else is a micro.
You've
obviously never dropped an RA-81 on your foot. :)
Dropping a microcomputer can be painful.
Dropping a minicomputer can be injurious.
Dropping a mainframe can be fatal.
8:03 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On Jan 29, 2013, at 10:22 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:08:11AM -0500, Christian
Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
Are we really not calling PDP-10s mainframes just because they're
not water-cooled? Some of the smaller ones (KS10 in particular)
were certainly more of the mini variety, but the KL10s certainly
meet the "lose a scope in it" rule of thumb, especially some of
the larger setups.
Additionally, I believe DEC marketed most of their 36-bit systems
as mainframes as well as a number of the larger VAXen (especially
the VAX9000). I'll be glad to debate the merit of calling a large
VAX a "mainframe", though the 9000s certainly fit the subjective
size parameters, but that's certainly the segment their marketing
department was aiming at.
- Dave
In the former case the TOAD-1 is most definitely
"big iron" as it is a
descendant of the KL-10, which is most assuredly a mainframe.
DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did AFAIK.
It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX is big iron
from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a 500-thread post ;-)
Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron.
11:32 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 01:43 PM, David Riley wrote:
It's not a mainframe, but I'd still call it
"big iron" relative to
Yikes, had I know this would bring up the discussion of "what
constitutes a mainframe" I would not have posted... sorry folks
/P
9:25 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 02:23 AM, Pontus wrote:
Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big
iron. If not, what
does?
How big (and how many) MG sets does it take to power it, how many
gallons/minute of chilled water does it take to keep it cool? If you
suffer a power outage, how long do the CEs have to work on it to get it
going again?
I'd always considered VAX-en to be minicomputers. Does anyone remember
the term "midi-computer?"
Actually, most of these terms are ridiculous holdovers from a bygone
age. "Microcomputer" used to have a specific meaning of a system whose
CPU was integrated into an IC. Arguments could be brought forward that
Beacon, with its mass of Xeon Phis is still a microcomputer--and a
supercomputer--and a mainframe.
It's a hopeless distinction. We can sit around and play Humpty-Dumpty
attempting to define or redefine old terms of art, but that isn't going
to change anything.
--Chuck
11:39 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 09:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
Here's a CW article from 1975 that even headlines the term:
http://tinyurl.com/bx5yypw
It makes interesting reading and the first paragraph is particularly
germane to the discussion.
But to be perfectly fair, it *was* the 70s.
--Chuck
I'd always
considered VAX-en to be minicomputers. Does anyone remember the
term "midi-computer?"
No, because the only people that used that term were people writing
textbooks for schools.
1:11 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
Here's a CW article from 1975 that even headlines
the term:
http://tinyurl.com/bx5yypw
It makes interesting reading and the first paragraph is particularly germane
to the discussion.
But to be perfectly fair, it *was* the 70s.
Ngram shows both minicomputer and mainframe *far* exceed midicomputer
in usage during the 1970s. Midicomputer almost is not there.
--
Will
4:05 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
On 01/29/2013 01:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Ngram shows both minicomputer and mainframe *far*
exceed midicomputer
in usage during the 1970s. Midicomputer almost is not there.
As I said, it *was* the 70s. Love beads, Nehru jackets, leisure suits
and other things were in vogue, along with orange shag carpeting, bright
primary colors for indoor furnishings and "midicomputer".
You bet your bippy that none of that amounted to a hill of pet rocks.
I started to get really confused when the 11/45 was referred to as a
midicomputer...
--Chuck
5:36 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
As I said, it *was* the 70s. Love beads, Nehru
jackets, leisure suits and
other things were in vogue, along with orange shag carpeting, bright primary
colors for indoor furnishings and "midicomputer".
You miss my point. "Midicomputer" was *not* in vogue. If it was, it
would have a larger presence in Ngram, especially relative to
"minicomputer" (I will exclude mainframe, as it was a far more common
word amongst non-computer people).
--
Will
8:06 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? and hey, what about "supermini"
On 2013 Jan 29, at 5:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Ngram is the determining authority?
Ngram is neat but it may have it's own skew to results. A new or 'in-
vogue' term like midicomputer may show up more in trade rags than
published books in comparison to more established terms like
minicomputer and mainframe. Ngram says they normalise results for
number of books published in a year but it's not clear how valid
comparitive results will be are across different categories of
publications.
I Ngrammed 'midicomputer' and 'bubblehead' (a 'popular' term that
I
figure wouldn't show up so much in published books) and they come up
with comparable percentages (at different times).
-
We also seem to have forgotten "superminicomputer" (or supermini) in
this discussion.
Didn't the term come in around the early 80's, as machines like the
780 and Eclipse established a new category of machines?
Actually, didn't supermini kind of take over from midi, as midi just
seemed a little awkward and a designation that no one really wanted
to apply to their machine?
As I said, it
*was* the 70s. Love beads, Nehru jackets, leisure
suits and
other things were in vogue, along with orange shag carpeting,
bright primary
colors for indoor furnishings and "midicomputer".
You miss my point. "Midicomputer" was *not* in vogue. If it was, it
would have a larger presence in Ngram, especially relative to
"minicomputer" (I will exclude mainframe, as it was a far more common
word amongst non-computer people).
8:41 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? and hey, what about "supermini"
Ngram is the determining authority?
Not perfect, but it does the job. Suggest something better.
Ngram is neat but it may have it's own skew to
results. A new or 'in-vogue'
term like midicomputer may show up more in trade rags than published books
in comparison to more established terms like minicomputer and mainframe.
Yes, that is true, but certainly there will be some migration over the
years from the rags to the books, just as it happens today. Jargon
works its way into the general language, even in something as awful as
a Tom Clancey novel.
I Ngrammed 'midicomputer' and
'bubblehead' (a 'popular' term that I figure
wouldn't show up so much in published books) and they come up with
comparable percentages (at different times).
Try "apples" and "oranges".
--
Will
9:41 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? and hey, what about "supermini"
On 2013 Jan 29, at 8:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Even if there isn't anything better that doesn't validate Ngram for
the task.
It may do so, but it may also go from 'in-vogue' to simply out.
I remember "midicomputer" from the 70's, even though I was just a kid
at the time. My own perception or recollection, as I mentioned
earlier, was the term got dropped or overridden in favour of
supermini by the 80's.
In the context of my point, 'popular' vs 'more formal' terms and how
that might affect Ngram results, I did.
If a narrow,industry-specific term like 'midicomputer' can show
similar percentages to a generic, popular bit of jargon like
'bubblehead', it says something about its prevalence, or else about
Ngram.
Ngram is the
determining authority?
Not perfect, but it does the job. Suggest something better. Ngram is neat
but it may have it's own skew to results. A new or
'in-vogue'
term like midicomputer may show up more in trade rags than
published books
in comparison to more established terms like minicomputer and
mainframe.
Yes, that is true, but certainly there will be some migration over the
years from the rags to the books, just as it happens today. Jargon
works its way into the general language, even in something as awful as
a Tom Clancey novel. I Ngrammed
'midicomputer' and 'bubblehead' (a 'popular' term that
I figure
wouldn't show up so much in published books) and they come up with
comparable percentages (at different times).
Try "apples" and "oranges".
9:10 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? and hey, what about "supermini"
On 01/29/2013 08:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
On 2013 Jan 29, at 5:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Ngram is the determining authority?
Ngram is neat but it may have it's own skew to results. A new or
'in-vogue' term like midicomputer may show up more in trade rags than
published books in comparison to more established terms like
minicomputer and mainframe. Ngram says they normalise results for number
of books published in a year but it's not clear how valid comparitive
results will be are across different categories of publications.
Shrug. I'll have to check the computer dictionary that I edited back in
the 90's for McGraw-Hill.
Generally, I don't think much of dictionaries or the people who write them.
"Midicomputer" appeared in publication--by some measures, that's
sufficient to call it legitimate.
--Chuck
As I
said, it *was* the 70s. Love beads, Nehru jackets, leisure
suits and
other things were in vogue, along with orange shag carpeting, bright
primary
colors for indoor furnishings and "midicomputer".
You miss my point. "Midicomputer" was *not* in vogue. If it was, it
would have a larger presence in Ngram, especially relative to
"minicomputer" (I will exclude mainframe, as it was a far more common
word amongst non-computer people).
9:56 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
It's a hopeless distinction. We can sit around
and play Humpty-Dumpty
attempting to define or redefine old terms of art, but that isn't going to
change anything.
That is right. Being a mainframe is a philosophy, not a machine.
--
Will
1:24 p.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
> It's a hopeless distinction. We can sit
around and play Humpty-Dumpty
> attempting to define or redefine old terms of art, but that isn't going to
> change anything.
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, William Donzelli wrote:
That is right. Being a mainframe is a philosophy, not
a machine.
THAT is the answer!
9:30 a.m.
New subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down]
Obviously, BIG and MADE OF IRON.
If extremely large, we should relax the iron requirement to handle silicon
based lifeforms, etc. 'twould seem that we have already done so, and
"IRON" is now only figrative.
28 Jan
28 Jan
7:02 p.m.
On 1/28/13 4:50 AM, "David Riley" <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 28, 2013, at 6:32 AM, MG <marcogb at
xs4all.nl> wrote:
Good suggestion - thanks! BTW and back to the original topic, I'm looking
forward to meeting with FAFNER's owner on Saturday. -- Ian
On 27-jan-2013 23:29, Ian King wrote:
http://livingcomputermuseum.org
Get Involved->Request a Login
(I'd link it directly, but it's an ugly link that might well change
in the future; the webmaster might consider putting a redirect at
something like /get_a_login that can be permalinked).
- Dave
If people have requests for software on LCM's
VAX-11/780-5, please
don't hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in
the community.
-- Ian
That sounds excellent. I haven't heard of that system before. Where
and how can I access it? (Or perhaps a web site with administrative
contact information and such?)
4295
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94 comments
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amh＠POBOX.COM -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
captainkirk359＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chocolatejollis38＠gmail.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
doc＠vaxen.net -
earl＠retrobits.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
henk.gooijen＠hotmail.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
hp-fix＠xs4all.nl -
IanK＠vulcan.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
marcogb＠xs4all.nl -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
microcode＠zoho.com -
pontus＠update.uu.se -
roe＠liveblockauctions.com -
ryan＠hack.net -
shumaker＠att.net -
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wdonzelli＠gmail.com -
xmechanic＠landcomp.net