13 Oct
2007
13 Oct
'07
12:29 p.m.
I have an AT 286 clone motherboard with math coprocessor that needs a
home. I only ask for postage. I'm in southern California.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
13 Oct
13 Oct
1:34 p.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007, David Griffith wrote:
I have an AT 286 clone motherboard with math
coprocessor that needs a
home. I only ask for postage. I'm in southern California.
The board is spoken for. Thanks.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
4:08 p.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
On Saturday 13 October 2007 16:34, David Griffith wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007, David Griffith wrote:
On this subject, I have a couple or three 286 boards around, and it's
possible that one of them might even have a mathco on it, I don't remember
for sure.
My question is, what are these good for these days? What sort of use could
something like this be put to?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
I have an AT 286 clone motherboard with math
coprocessor that needs a
home. I only ask for postage. I'm in southern California.
The board is spoken for. Thanks. 
5:04 p.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
On Saturday 13 October 2007 16:34, David Griffith
wrote:
remember
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007, David Griffith wrote:
On this subject, I have a couple or three 286 boards around, and it's
possible that one of them might even have a mathco on it, I don't I have an AT 286 clone motherboard with math
coprocessor that needs a
home. I only ask for postage. I'm in southern California.
The board is spoken for. Thanks. for sure.
My question is, what are these good for these days? What sort of use
could
something like this be put to?
To play the original Wing Commander (way too fast on my 486)!
7:32 p.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
Teo Zenios wrote:
To play the original Wing Commander (way too fast on
my 486)!
It would have to be a 16MHz 286, and you must play in VGA(*) (really
MCGA) mode. But with those conditions met, yes, the original Wing
Commander is playable. 12Mhz is a hair too slow to be enjoyable.
(*) Original Wing Commander supported EGA and Tandy 16-color graphics.
However, the graphics speed in these modes, even though they require
half the memory, is so slow that the game is unplayable due to the
bitwide manipulation needed.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
7:49 p.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
It would have to be a 16MHz 286, and you must play in
VGA(*) (really
MCGA) mode. But with those conditions met, yes, the original Wing
Commander is playable. 12Mhz is a hair too slow to be enjoyable.
(*) Original Wing Commander supported EGA and Tandy 16-color graphics.
However, the graphics speed in these modes, even though they require
half the memory, is so slow that the game is unplayable due to the
bitwide manipulation needed.
Yes, I have a 286-16 (the chip is a 20 but the motherboard only has settings
for 12/16Mhz), VGA mode. The only reason I have the 286 (which I never realy
cared for processor wise) was because my tandy 1000HX is too slow for some
games, and my 386/40 or 486/66 is too fast for others). Trying to play WC on
a 486/66 is like playing an arcade game on crack.
Am I the only one who never got into 286 systems (my 1st pc in the late 80's
was a Packard Bell 286/12)?
TZ
9:15 p.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
Teo Zenios wrote:
Am I the only one who never got into 286 systems (my
1st pc in the late 80's
was a Packard Bell 286/12)?
I didn't either. 808x had about as long a run of usefulness as the
other popular/surviving home computers at the time (I'm thinking Apple
II, C64, Mac classic here), which was about 8 years. As to why that is,
I'm still trying to hammer out theories (additional ones are welcome),
such as "the home computer software industry moved at a slower pace back
then" or "computers cost so much back then that people expected them to
last", etc.
I got an 808x in December 1984 and used it until December of 1990, when
it was replaced by an 80386sx-16 with VGA. So I bypassed the 80286 era
as well.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
14 Oct
14 Oct
2:41 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
Jim Leonard wrote:
I didn't either. 808x had about as long a run of
usefulness as the
other popular/surviving home computers at the time (I'm thinking Apple
II, C64, Mac classic here), which was about 8 years. As to why that is,
I'm still trying to hammer out theories (additional ones are welcome),
such as "the home computer software industry moved at a slower pace back
then" or "computers cost so much back then that people expected them to
last", etc.
I suspect the driving force was peoples' expectations; back then nobody
expected new hardware and software to come out so frequently, and so it just
didn't happen - the computer was a tool, not a status symbol, and purchased
based on whether it filled a need.
I'm not sure if expense comes into it - look how many gadgets people buy these
days (it all adds up!) or how many people change their car each year etc.
Then: "It's a bit clunky, but it does pretty much what I need it to do. Why
should I change?"
Now: "Oh look, new shiny thing!"
15 Oct
15 Oct
1:42 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
On Sunday 14 October 2007 10:41:46 Jules Richardson wrote:
Then: "It's a bit clunky, but it does pretty
much what I need it to do. Why
should I change?"
Now: "Oh look, new shiny thing!"
Me: "Oh look, new 25-year-old shiny thing!"
My fiance?: "No, not until you get a shed"
Gordon
14 Oct
14 Oct
7:53 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
Jim Leonard wrote:
I didn't either. 808x had about as long a run of
usefulness as the
other popular/surviving home computers at the time (I'm thinking Apple
II, C64, Mac classic here), which was about 8 years. As to why that is,
I'm still trying to hammer out theories (additional ones are welcome),
such as "the home computer software industry moved at a slower pace back
then" or "computers cost so much back then that people expected them to
last", etc.
I think people worked/played more with the computer more back then.
Meaning wrote utilities, improved stuff, changed something, and were
proud if it.
Now it (the pc a least) became a utility appliance like a toaster.
Nothing sexy about it anymore. And software is so bloated, it is hard
enough to just use it ;-)
Cheers
8:06 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
e.stiebler wrote:
Now it (the pc a least) became a utility appliance
like a toaster.
Nothing sexy about it anymore. And software is so bloated, it is hard
enough to just use it ;-)
For a while it seemed the pc was game driven... New graphics card,cpu
and extra's for each revision of games. Now it seems to hardware fads
like USB,todays brand of networking... Ben
Cheers
9:19 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
On Oct 14, 2007, at 11:06 AM, woodelf wrote:
It still seems pretty game-driven to me. In a way I think the
game fanatics have had a positive effect even on the grownup
computing world; look at all the graphics advancements we've had in
the name of faster 3D game performance. Some of that hardware is
pretty impressive!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
Now it (the pc
a least) became a utility appliance like a toaster.
Nothing sexy about it anymore. And software is so bloated, it is hard
enough to just use it ;-)
For a while it seemed the pc was game driven... New graphics card,cpu
and extra's for each revision of games. Now it seems to hardware fads
like USB,todays brand of networking... Ben 
13 Oct
13 Oct
9:43 p.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
Teo Zenios wrote:
...
Yes, I have a 286-16 (the chip is a 20 but the motherboard only has settings
for 12/16Mhz), VGA mode. The only reason I have the 286 (which I never realy
cared for processor wise) was because my tandy 1000HX is too slow for some
games, and my 386/40 or 486/66 is too fast for others). Trying to play WC on
a 486/66 is like playing an arcade game on crack.
Heh... too funny... my 286 is a 286-16 clocked as a 286-20 :-)
Am I the only one who never got into 286 systems (my
1st pc in the late 80's
was a Packard Bell 286/12)?
I think skipping a generation wasn't uncommon.... I skipped the 386
generation...
went from my 286-20 to a 486DX-33. I skipped the pentium pro
generation too
(not that I didn't get cheaper/free ones later to toy with... just like
I have a few
386s now... just didn't get them 'in their time').
-- Curt
TZ
16 Oct
16 Oct
2:49 p.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
On 10/14/07, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. <rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
Since I came from Commodores on the low end and PDPs on the high end,
when I was buying hardware in the 1980s and 1990s, I went from a $100
8088 running DOS, skipping the 286, to an AMD 386-DX/40 that I
originally bought in 1992 to run Linux, but later ran DOS and Windows
games on it (including beta-testing "Return to Zork" for Activision).
Eventually, the 386-DX/40 gave way to an AMD 486-DX/80, then that was
replaced by a Pentium-90. I made a career of upgrading when the CPUs
were under $100 each, about two years behind the curve, IIRC. I never
did own any Pentium-Pro hardware, but some of my friends did, and
except for laptops, not too much in the P-II or P-III line. Still
don't own any P-4 gear.
OTOH, I'm still using an AMD 1400MHz Athlon as my main machine at home
- the motherboard was free from a former boss in 2001, and the current
CPU in it was, you guessed it, $99.99 at the Dayton Computerfest (a
defunct show that was in the odd quarters from the Dayton Hamfest, but
still at Hara Arena).
I do *not* miss the days of DOS. I only dabbled in it to run certain
apps (Morse code trainers, games, device programmers, etc. - except
for one job, for CompuServe, where I was actually *paid* to program a
DOS app - *shudder*. As such, I escaped the
must-upgrade-as-often-as-possible mentality I saw in friends who were
100% hard-core DOS users in the 8088-286-386-486 days. I just got one
machine and stuck with it until it just plain wouldn't run some game I
wanted to play, then that was enough impetus to find a new
$100-or-less CPU/video card/sound card/etc.
-ethan
Am I the only
one who never got into 286 systems (my 1st pc in the late 80's
was a Packard Bell 286/12)?
I think skipping a generation wasn't uncommon.... I skipped the 386
generation... went from my 286-20 to a 486DX-33. I skipped the
pentium pro generation too
4 p.m.
New subject: cross-post:fpga-cpu upcoming events ibm1130
--- In fpga-cpu at yahoogroups.com, woodelf <bfranchuk at ...> wrote:
>
> rtstofer wrote:
>
> > > In the end, the only goal is to get Unix V6 running. Just because...
> > > I don't have any long time love affair with PDP's. That level of
> > > commitment is reserved for the IBM 1130.
>
> Then why are you *NOT* doing that in a FPGA?
>
> > > Richard
> Ben.
> PS. Ok the hard drive, line printer and punch card
> card reader/punch don't fit in one.Other than I/O
> the IBM-1130 had a nice instruction set considering
> the time era it was in.
>
But, I already have... The FPGA implementation runs the entire IBM
software suite include DMS, Fortran, Macro Assembler, etc. Even
Robert Louden's "Three Dimension Tic-Tac-Toe" is running.
In the beginning I used a 25x80 VGA display core for the console
printer, a PS/2 keyboard core for the console keyboard and a pair of
serial port cores for the reader and printer.
I got lazy and loaded the OS on a 16Mb flash EEPROM and copied it to
RAM for a ram disk. That limited the system to 16k words versus a max
of 32k. I have started working on an IDE interface for one or more CF
drives. I have always viewed that as a 'someday' project because
source code was never stored on the disk. Building programs from
source decks is more interesting to watch if the disk is 'fresh'.
It's been running for several months and I will do a "show and tell"
at the Vintage Computer Fair, Nov 3rd, at the Computer Museum in
Mountain View. There's a 5th annual IBM 1130 party at the fair.
For that evolution, the console display and keyboard will be replaced
with yet another serial port so that there will be 3 instances of
Hyperterminal running on a laptop (ugly...). Portability drives the
change.
I like the IO system: it is all based on DMA and if you want to add a
gadget, just hook it up to the DMA channel, invent an XIO command
sequence and write the driver. I only implemented the devices that
used DMA like the 2501 card reader and 1403 printer. I added delays
so that the IO devices run in real time.
The IBM 1130 is the first computer I ever used, starting in 1969.
There are a few 'firsts' in life that are worth remembering; this is
one. Fortunately, there were others...
Richard
17 Oct
17 Oct
7:30 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
Ethan Dicks wrote:
I do *not* miss the days of DOS.
I do, since it was simpler and easier to gain complete access to the
hardware. You can still do so in other operating systems, but DOS+Debug
remains one of my favorite environments to poke around in.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
9:11 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
On 17 Oct 2007 at 9:30, Jim Leonard wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Ditto here. Not much of a problem running DOS 7.x for FAT-32 with
DOSLFN to give long filename support. With a faster disk, an
otherwise unusuable (under WinXP) system can turn in very decent
performance. And using a 32-bit DPMI server to run 32-bit command-
line applications can turn in very good results indeed--while not
putting a wall between the hardware and your applications.
A lot of Linux has even been getting bloated enough to adversely
affect performanc on many P1 systems, particularly when one of the
graphics desktops is involved.
Cheers,
Chuck
I do *not* miss the days of DOS.
I do, since it was simpler and easier to gain complete access to the
hardware. You can still do so in other operating systems, but DOS+Debug
remains one of my favorite environments to poke around in. 
20 Oct
20 Oct
10:48 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard
Ethan Dicks wrote:
And to peek as well? ;)
Cheers,
Bryan
I do *not* miss the days of DOS.
I do, since it was simpler and easier to gain complete access to the
hardware. You can still do so in other operating systems, but DOS+Debug
remains one of my favorite environments to poke around in. 
14 Oct
14 Oct
1:32 a.m.
New subject: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco
Teo Zenios wrote:
games, and my 386/40 or 486/66 is too fast for
others). Trying to play WC on
a 486/66 is like playing an arcade game on crack.
You mean the game is on crack, or you're on crack playing the game?
Peace... Sridhar
2:06 p.m.
New subject: AT 286 Uses (was: Re: Taken: AT 286 motherboard with mathco)
On 10/14/07, Bryan Pope <bpope at wordstock.com> wrote:
And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J.
Tellason
That reminds me of all the 286s in Hamfests I saw 15+ years ago -
Wolf3D every direction you turned, until people got tired of hauling
286s to Hamfests to watch them not sell.
It was a long time until sellers found a new "attract" program to pull
in buyers. At least the smoothness of the animation could give you a
rough idea of the overall performance of the system - much better than
quoting megahertz and waitstates.
-ethan
My question is, what are these good for these days? What sort of use could
something like this be put to?
Playing Wolfenstein 3D? :)
5:18 p.m.
New subject: AT 286 Uses
Ethan Dicks wrote:
It was a long time until sellers found a new
"attract" program to pull
in buyers. At least the smoothness of the animation could give you a
rough idea of the overall performance of the system - much better than
quoting megahertz and waitstates.
The best "attract" programs I have ever seen for a 286 with VGA are
"demoscene" demos. The two best ones I can think of are:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=463
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1353
3-D graphics, full-screen texture/bitmap effects, all in the full 70Hz
framerate of VGA. Very impressive if you don't know how it's done (and
still impressive even if you do :-)
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
6274
days inactive
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21 comments
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participants (14)
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bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bpope＠wordstock.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
emu＠e-bbes.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rescue＠hawkmountain.net -
rtellason＠verizon.net -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
trixter＠oldskool.org