8 Feb
2007
8 Feb
'07
8:28 p.m.
Subject: Re: Humpty Dumpty
From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:50:16 -0500
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
On 2/8/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
I have VT100 series and VT320 and VT340 along with a VT1200.
As near as I can tell, there are like 3 people
who care about
terminals: myself, Paul Shuford (who is the only source of online
information about many kinds of terminals) and Paul Williams (who runs
and maintains vt100.net).
4. I have a collection of terminals, 90% of which are various DEC
models (VT-50 through about VT-320), but a couple of Tektronix, couple
of Planar, Heathkit, CiTOH, etc. Most terminals
do not have graphics capability, just character
capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer.
I'd have to check the stack, but the Tektronix terminals are color
graphics + text (local printer port, etc.), and of course, the VT241
is color graphics + text, as is the DEC GIGI. I agree - they are
rare. Rarer are the applications to drive them. I don't know of many
color Tek apps, but there were quite a few for the GIGI under TOPS-20. Terminals
that have 3D graphics builtin are even scarcer than that.
Indeed. I don't know if I've ever seen one.
The Visual
500 therefore is of interest to me because it is older and has
graphics. (Not all Visual terminals have graphics, but the 500 does.)
Interesting. Shame the seller was too cheap/ignorant to package
things properly. I have to wonder how he got them to accept it - I've
been to the UPS depot and seen them turn away customers with boxes
that had heavy, shifting loads (improperly packaged computer bits). 
9 Feb
9 Feb
8:40 a.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>,
Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> writes:
Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and
340 added color,
VT1200 as full graphics (xterm).
Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct.
VT100 docs (user guide and technical guide, both on bitsavers) do not
mention sixel graphics at all. Paul Shuford's site has some
discussion of what "sixel graphics" means and apparently different
people use the term loosely to describe different things.
The VT125 had ReGIS graphics capability, but this is not a VT100.
The VT220 Programmer Reference Manual also does not mention sixel
graphics, but you can download a font glyph definition and presumably
with the right custom font you could display some sort of image, but
its not "sixel graphics".
The VT320, like the VT200 series, also had user-definable character
sets. You can "fake" some graphics this way like you can with the
VT220. See <http://vt100.net/dec/vt320/soft_characters>.
I know all these DEC terminal models can become confusing, but trust
me, I have been paying attention to which models support graphics.
<http://vt100.net/vt_history> gives these models as supporting
graphics:
VT55: primitive graphics capability
VT105: VT100 + VT55 graphics capability
<http://home.arcor.de/magnos/ccg/vt105/VT105.html>
VT125: Graphics produced as a separate display from the text.
(I am not sure what this means; a separate monitor
required?)
VT240: B&W ReGIS graphics
VT241: Color ReGIS graphics
VT330: B&W ReGIS graphics
VT340: Color ReGIS graphics
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
1:05 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
You're correct on the graphics support.
The only graphics in the VT100/VT101/VT102 were the DEC graphics line
drawing set -- if you can call that graphics.
Bill
On 2/9/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>,
Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> writes:
Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220,
320 and 340 added color,
VT1200 as full graphics (xterm).
Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct.
VT100 docs (user guide and technical guide, both on bitsavers) do not
mention sixel graphics at all. Paul Shuford's site has some
discussion of what "sixel graphics" means and apparently different
people use the term loosely to describe different things.
The VT125 had ReGIS graphics capability, but this is not a VT100.
The VT220 Programmer Reference Manual also does not mention sixel
graphics, but you can download a font glyph definition and presumably
with the right custom font you could display some sort of image, but
its not "sixel graphics".
The VT320, like the VT200 series, also had user-definable character
sets. You can "fake" some graphics this way like you can with the
VT220. See <http://vt100.net/dec/vt320/soft_characters>.
I know all these DEC terminal models can become confusing, but trust
me, I have been paying attention to which models support graphics.
<http://vt100.net/vt_history> gives these models as supporting
graphics:
VT55: primitive graphics capability
VT105: VT100 + VT55 graphics capability
<http://home.arcor.de/magnos/ccg/vt105/VT105.html>
VT125: Graphics produced as a separate display from the text.
(I am not sure what this means; a separate monitor
required?)
VT240: B&W ReGIS graphics
VT241: Color ReGIS graphics
VT330: B&W ReGIS graphics
VT340: Color ReGIS graphics
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
2:56 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
In article <ee5521f80702090505l1d829d03wdb0e3077027b6464 at mail.gmail.com>,
"Bill Pechter" <pechter at gmail.com> writes:
You're correct on the graphics support.
The only graphics in the VT100/VT101/VT102 were the DEC graphics line
drawing set -- if you can call that graphics.
I don't know that I even call the "waveform" thing in the VT125
graphics because it doesn't let you arbitrarily mess with all the
dots. The soft-font thing is also a hack, and while cool, is not what
I would call "graphics".
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
3:41 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
On 2/9/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
I don't know that I even call the
"waveform" thing in the VT125
graphics because it doesn't let you arbitrarily mess with all the
dots. The soft-font thing is also a hack, and while cool, is not what
I would call "graphics".
The VT125 has full-on ReGIS graphics. It's the VT105 that has
"waveform" graphics.
The VT55 and VT105 don't let you draw arbitrary images, but they do
give you pixel-resolution plots, either as a waveform or a bargraph.
Handy if you want to plot functions (i.e. one Y and only one Y value
per X), but not what we are used to calling graphics.
-ethan
4:46 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
In article <f4eb766f0702090741s4bc3600fnd56e71e0ec3e207c at mail.gmail.com>,
"Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes:
The VT125 has full-on ReGIS graphics. It's the
VT105 that has
"waveform" graphics.
Oops, yes, you're correct and I should have said VT105/VT55.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
12 Feb
12 Feb
2:40 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics
Bill Pechter wrote:
You're correct on the graphics support.
The only graphics in the VT100/VT101/VT102 were the DEC graphics line
drawing set -- if you can call that graphics.
Bill
On 2/9/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
>
> In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>,
> Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> writes:
>
> > Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color,
> > VT1200 as full graphics (xterm).
>
> Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct.
>
How is it possible to draw full-screen photo images on a VT320 & 420 then?
Obviously they're 1-bit color and it takes a few minutes but it has been done.
Must have some sort of graphics capability. I recall reading in the manuals that
there was the sixel capability enabled with a particular escape sequence.
The same photo image would appear in 4-bit color on the VT340. Takes longer to
render.
Could do the same on a plasma touch terminal (forgot the name) emulating
VT100/102, as well.
--
jd
13 Feb
13 Feb
1:10 a.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics
In article <45D07C75.4080503 at garlic.com>,
jd <onymouse at garlic.com> writes:
I already explained it in my first post on this tangent thread. A VT320
or VT420 is not a VT100.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
On 2/9/07,
Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
>
> In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>,
> Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> writes:
>
> > Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color,
> > VT1200 as full graphics (xterm).
>
> Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct.
>
How is it possible to draw full-screen photo images on a VT320 & 420 then?
9 Feb
9 Feb
4:06 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
On 2/9/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
The VT125 had ReGIS graphics capability, but this is
not a VT100.
Right. I think the VT125 could also do VT55/VT105-style waveform
graphics as well, but I'm not positive about that.
I know all these DEC terminal models can become
confusing, but trust
me, I have been paying attention to which models support graphics.
<http://vt100.net/vt_history> gives these models as supporting
graphics:
VT55: primitive graphics capability
VT105: VT100 + VT55 graphics capability
<http://home.arcor.de/magnos/ccg/vt105/VT105.html>
Nice writeup on the waveform graphics there.
VT125: Graphics produced as a separate
display from the text.
(I am not sure what this means; a separate monitor
required?)
There are BNCs on the back of the VT125 - I have never owned one, but
I _think_ you can display graphics in shades of gray on the internal
tube, but for color, you have to have an external color monitor.
VT240: B&W ReGIS graphics
VT241: Color ReGIS graphics
For the unaware, the VT240 and VT241 are composed of two elements, a
slab with all the terminal boards, and an external B&W (VR201) or
color (VR241) monitor. It is entirely unlike the VT220 which is of
the same generation, but which has the monitor and terminal boards in
one housing. If you have a VR201 mono monitor (DECmate II/III,
Rainbow, Pro 3xx...) and a VR241 (Rainbow) and one VT240 slab, you can
switch your arrangement between being a VT240 and VT241.
So if you see a slab approx 15"x9"x3" marked VT240 or VT241 at a
hamfest, it's easy to turn that back into a terminal - just add an
LK201 keyboard, find/buy a video cable with a DA15 on one end and
either a DA15 (VR201) or BNCs (VR241) on the other, and add a monitor.
Given that these monitors don't do anything screwy with the video,
one could make a cable or cable adapter and use a mono RS-170 monitor
as a substitute VR201 or use any sync-on-green 15KHz color monitor as
a VR241. I think it was common in the day to use a Barco monitor
rather than a DEC monitor in a VT241.
-ethan
11:14 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
On Fri, February 9, 2007 16:06, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Right. I think the VT125 could also do
VT55/VT105-style waveform
graphics as well, but I'm not positive about that.
I think so, it was the standard model for the MINC Lab computer and some
of the docs I've got show waveform style graphics.
So if you see a slab approx 15"x9"x3"
marked VT240 or VT241 at a
hamfest, it's easy to turn that back into a terminal - just add an
The same casing was used for the DECmux and DECtalk, an old customer of
mine used to use DECtalk to announce the time and any safety messages.
Pity I never got the chance to get hold of the boxes when they upgraded.
Said customer also (at the time) had a PDP 11/70 talking to RA9x drives,
this was only 7 or 8 years ago :o|
a VR241. I think it was common in the day to use a
Barco monitor
rather than a DEC monitor in a VT241.
It was indeed.
--
adrian/witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection?
11:23 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
On 2/9/07, Witchy <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> wrote:
Yep. I was pretty sure it was the same case, but I didn't want to be
the one to make that assertion first. I've only ever seen one or two
DECtalk boxes in the wild.
-ethan
On Fri, February 9, 2007 16:06, Ethan Dicks wrote:
My MINC came with a VT105, but I've done some reading and it appears
that VT55/VT105 waveform graphics are supported with a standard VT125
(along with all its other features, such as video *in* with text
overlay)
Right. I think the VT125 could also do
VT55/VT105-style waveform
graphics as well, but I'm not positive about that.
I think so, it was the standard model for the MINC Lab computer and some
of the docs I've got show waveform style graphics. So if you see
a slab approx 15"x9"x3" marked VT240 or VT241 at a
hamfest, it's easy to turn that back into a terminal - just add an
The same casing was used for the DECmux and DECtalk
11:41 p.m.
New subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty)
On Fri, February 9, 2007 23:23, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Hmm, maybe I'm remembering wrong about the VT125 being standard, I've got
lots of the MINC newsletters and remembered it from there. If needs be I
can probably dig them out.
Yep. I was pretty sure it was the same case, but I didn't want to be
the one to make that assertion first. I've only ever seen one or two
DECtalk boxes in the wild.
I've not seen any since those days; I found a couple of boxes at work that
I hoped were DECtalk but they were DECmux instead. Bits of me are saying
that the DEREP (the 'other side' to a DECbridge) also used the same casing
but I wouldn't swear by that, it's got to be 15 years or so since I last
saw one!
--
adrian/witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection?
I think so, it
was the standard model for the MINC Lab computer and some
of the docs I've got show waveform style graphics.
My MINC came with a VT105, but I've done some reading and it appears
that VT55/VT105 waveform graphics are supported with a standard VT125
(along with all its other features, such as video *in* with text
overlay) So if you see a slab approx 15"x9"x3"
marked VT240 or VT241 at a
hamfest, it's easy to turn that back into a terminal - just add an
The same casing was used for the DECmux and DECtalk
6528
days inactive
6533
days old
11 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
ajp166＠bellatlantic.net -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
onymouse＠garlic.com -
pechter＠gmail.com -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk