4 May
2017
4 May
'17
5:41 p.m.
Hi guys,
Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at the beginning of this
thread I said...
Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab)
have found some 8
inch floppy disks.
They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive
them.
They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was used
to write the files.
They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.
It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul Nankervis's ODS2 at
http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 . This program
reads VMS disks from PCs. The zip had a Win32 executable included.
The executable seems to run ok in the DOS window of the Win98 machine I've
attached the drive too, in that the Command Line Interface seems fine and I
can type and issue commands. However, I've had no luck with mounting the
disk in ODS2. The error I get (consistent over all disks) is:
"Sector 1 read failed 87
PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0)
Mount failed with 500"
I may have reached the limit of my skill envelope. Before I abandon the
task and suggest to these researchers to consider sending these disks to
Chuck C., does anyone know...
1. What that error means?
2. If it would make a difference that I'm running the Win32 exe in Windows
98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.? The documentation doesn't mention
Windows 98, however the program does start to a CLI without a problem.
3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks in mind? Would it make a
difference? CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and
read/written to under MS-DOS by the machine I have the drive hooked up to,
so I don't think it's a hardware issue.
4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary
format OTHER than VMS?
Any comments most welcome.
Thanks!
Terry
4 May
4 May
6:24 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
I don't know anything. but, I will point out a few things to look into.
They may be
CP/M, or some other format entirely.
It turns out these disks are from a VAX
machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them. Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul
Nankervis's ODS2 at
http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 . This program
"Sector 1 read failed 87
PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0)
Mount failed with 500"
Chuck G., does anyone know...
1. What that error means?
so far, only that it failed on what was probably the
first sector that it
tried. "87" is probably not meningful to anybody except VMS
"PHYIO" MIGHT mean physical I/O
"500" also isn't applicable to other systems.
2. If it would make a difference that I'm
running the Win32 exe in Windows 98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.?
It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real mode")
3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks
in mind?
No idea. But, other than NEC PC98, machines generally do NOT use the same
format specs on 8:, 5.25, 3.5
Would it make a difference?
absolutely.
If there are more than one format available, then the read program might
1) ASSUME one of the lot
2) have options to choose
3) attempt to detect what it sees.
Besides ODS-2, what about ODS-1 and ODS-5?
Find somebody who knows VMS, and find out what the options were.
CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and
read/written to under
MS-DOS by the machine I have the drive hooked up to, so I don't think
it's a hardware issue.
Does your system handle single density? (some FDCs do;
some don't)
4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in
some weird
proprietary format OTHER than VMS?
quite possible. For example, they might have, at some point in the past,
used a program under VMS to copy their data to some other format that they
thought might be handy, such as SSSD CP/M!
Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?
If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.
6:30 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the
density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?
If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading
through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.
Thanks Fred,
Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried. Couldn't
do it at all. Tons of errors, no tracks could be read. IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.
All the disks I tried were like this.
Terry
6:47 p.m.
New subject: sks. Any thoughts
> Does your system handle single density? (some
FDCs do; some don't)
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
Oh, yes it does.
Well, there went THAT hope.
There exist other encoding formats, besides WD/IBM style FM and MFM.
(GCR, MMFM, and dozens of others)
If IMD (which seems capable of whatever the NEC FDC can dish out) can't
see what is on there, then probably the next step would have to be
analysis of a flux-transition read.
6:35 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things
I tried. Couldn't
do it at all. Tons of errors, no tracks could be read. IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.
All the disks I tried were like this.
Then, either it is impossible to read with the PC FDC, or we missed
something.
Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
I think that Dave has a utility to test that.
Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central point
option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?
6:40 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
I think that Dave has a utility to test that.
Yes, quite capable. It passes Dave's test and I have read/written in
single density when archiving other stuff. Archiving my FM/single density
POLY and Panasonic stuff was no problem.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-in…
It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real
mode")
No, this (at least the executable) was definitely designed to be run in
Windows. It tells me so if I try to start it under pure MS-DOS.
Do you have access to any sort of
"flux-transition" device (Central point
option board, cat-weasel,
kryoflux, etc.)?
No. That option is out for me.
Terry
9:05 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/04/2017 06:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
aka RX02.
RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track PC can read them.
RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
totally
unreadable with any LSI controller. It uses FM headers to confuse the act.
To read that you need:
- RX02 and a compatible system.
- one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
family chips) in a DEC box (and cpu).
-Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
SSSD). It can also read and write
RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01. RX02
format was unique to DEC
and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
compatible controllers.
First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the second.
Then the possible 8" ODS formats are....
DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
formatting).
The PDP-11 group RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common. Note PDT150
is also PDP-11 RX01.
This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
time.
VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode. It is PDP11 and
RX01 media.
Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
format compatible with
the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
the VAX78x family
as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive. To do that it had to
have a unibus RX controller
and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
utilities for most all the
PDP11 formats.
Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
Microvax and later machine
did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
sequence. In those
cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
(not a supported config)
assembled as a hack. Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
firmware supported 5.25" Teac
and 3.5" Sony drives as well. RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50 and 3.5" Sony
drives. Because of this
and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used. The RQDX
controllers could do the stated
floppies even is MFM disks were not connected.
Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough. IF RX02
a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
equivalent) makes it easy. To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
and a CP/M utility that
knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
RX01 media using FIT or other
tools.
Allison
Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first
things I tried.
Couldn't
do it at all. Tons of errors, no tracks could be read. IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.
All the disks I tried were like this.
Then, either it is impossible to read with the PC FDC, or we missed
something.
Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
I think that Dave has a utility to test that.
Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central
point option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?
9:27 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts
Thank you!
Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them
out for Terry.
Experience always beats speculation:
On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM
aka RX01 or FM2
aka RX02.
RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track PC can read them.
RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
totally
unreadable with any LSI controller. It uses FM headers to confuse the act.
To read that you need:
- RX02 and a compatible system.
- one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
family chips) in a DEC box (and cpu).
-Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
SSSD). It can also read and write
RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01. RX02
format was unique to DEC
and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
compatible controllers.
First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the second.
Then the possible 8" ODS formats are....
DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
formatting).
The PDP-11 group RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common. Note PDT150
is also PDP-11 RX01.
This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
time.
VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode. It is PDP11 and
RX01 media.
Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
format compatible with
the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
the VAX78x family
as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive. To do that it had to
have a unibus RX controller
and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
utilities for most all the
PDP11 formats.
Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
Microvax and later machine
did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
sequence. In those
cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
(not a supported config)
assembled as a hack. Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
firmware supported 5.25" Teac
and 3.5" Sony drives as well. RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50 and 3.5" Sony
drives. Because of this
and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used. The RQDX
controllers could do the stated
floppies even is MFM disks were not connected.
Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough. IF RX02
a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
equivalent) makes it easy. To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
and a CP/M utility that
knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
RX01 media using FIT or other
tools.
Allison
10 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts
First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM
aka RX01 or FM2
aka RX02.
(..an in-depth explanation)
How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
and a CP/M utility that
knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
RX01 media using FIT or other
tools.
Thanks for that explanation Allison. I see there are all sorts of complex
systems and formats.
Based on what I've read, I'll call it quits with this project. The guys in
the lab in the next building can take it further if they want to. They
didn't want anything specific off the floppies. It was a case of "we want
to toss these disks. but perhaps we should copy the stuff off these
disks...just in case".
Thanks for taking the time to respond. It's been an interesting learning
exercise.
Terry
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
wrote:
Thank you!
Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them
out for Terry.
Experience always beats speculation:
On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
First if they are DEC its one of two formats
either FM aka RX01 or FM2
aka RX02.
RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track PC can read them.
RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
totally
unreadable with any LSI controller. It uses FM headers to confuse the
act.
To read that you need:
- RX02 and a compatible system.
- one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
family chips) in a DEC box (and cpu).
-Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
SSSD). It can also read and write
RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01. RX02
format was unique to DEC
and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
compatible controllers.
First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the
second.
Then the possible 8" ODS formats are....
DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
formatting).
The PDP-11 group RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common. Note PDT150
is also PDP-11 RX01.
This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
time.
VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode. It is PDP11 and
RX01 media.
Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
format compatible with
the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
the VAX78x family
as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive. To do that it had to
have a unibus RX controller
and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
utilities for most all the
PDP11 formats.
Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
Microvax and later machine
did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
sequence. In those
cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
(not a supported config)
assembled as a hack. Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
firmware supported 5.25" Teac
and 3.5" Sony drives as well. RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50 and 3.5" Sony
drives. Because of this
and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used. The RQDX
controllers could do the stated
floppies even is MFM disks were not connected.
Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough. IF RX02
a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
equivalent) makes it easy. To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
and a CP/M utility that
knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
RX01 media using FIT or other
tools.
Allison
5 May
5 May
11:10 a.m.
New subject: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts
On 05/04/2017 09:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Thank you!
Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check
them out for Terry.
I could... If I had the time and no other competing projects.
I'm far from the only one around with a PDP-11 with RX02 or a
microVAX-II with a
RXV21/RX02 spare to swap in.
The process would be reading the media and transfering to a PC via
serial line at
maybe 19.2K.
If the media is good its not so bad at 500k max. If the media is past
its "use by"
date it will gum the heads and require pulling out the drives to clean
the heads.
Thats time consuming. If the format is not as expected then it s a read
and
capture sectors project, more time.
The key is are you sure the media is formatted as ODS-II? I'd consider
that very
unlikely as the overhead is high. Even VAXen could save to small media
with
multiple formats not the same as whats on the big RDxx, RLxx, RAxxx or
RZxx media.
Typical it is likely files-11.
Suggesting to Terry, learn DEC systems.
One or two for giggles maybe, a significant volume of them comes with
cash as
its a time consuming commercial effort.
Allison
Experience always beats speculation:
On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
> aka RX02.
>
> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track PC can read them.
>
> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
> totally
> unreadable with any LSI controller. It uses FM headers to confuse
> the act.
> To read that you need:
> - RX02 and a compatible system.
> - one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
> family chips) in a DEC box (and cpu).
> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
>
> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
> SSSD). It can also read and write
> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01. RX02
> format was unique to DEC
> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
> compatible controllers.
>
> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the
> second.
>
> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are....
>
> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
> formatting).
>
> The PDP-11 group RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common. Note PDT150
> is also PDP-11 RX01.
> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
> time.
>
> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode. It is PDP11 and
> RX01 media.
> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
> format compatible with
> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
>
> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
> the VAX78x family
> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive. To do that it had to
> have a unibus RX controller
> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
> utilities for most all the
> PDP11 formats.
>
> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
> Microvax and later machine
> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
> sequence. In those
> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
> (not a supported config)
> assembled as a hack. Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
> firmware supported 5.25" Teac
> and 3.5" Sony drives as well. RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50 and 3.5"
Sony
> drives. Because of this
> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used. The RQDX
> controllers could do the stated
> floppies even is MFM disks were not connected.
>
> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
>
> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough. IF RX02
> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
> equivalent) makes it easy. To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
> reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
>
> How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
> uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
> and a CP/M utility that
> knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
> RX01 media using FIT or other
> tools.
>
>
> Allison
4 May
4 May
7:41 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On May 4, 2017 3:30 PM, "Terry Stewart via cctalk" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the
density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?
If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading
through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.
Thanks Fred,
Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried. Couldn't
do it at all. Tons of errors, no tracks could be read. IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.
All the disks I tried were like this.
Terry
If they are DEC RX02 format you won't be able to read them on any standard
PC hardware.
7:01 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
From: Terry Stewart
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM
Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at the
beginning of this
thread I said...
> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science
lab) have found some 8 inch
> floppy disks. They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
> was used to write the files. They may be CP/M, or some other format
> entirely.
It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine.
Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
Stop there.
8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.
The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org
http://www.LivingComputers.org/
5 May
5 May
11:13 a.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/04/2017 07:01 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
From: Terry Stewart
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM
Not absolutely true! THe boot
system is a PDP-11, however the VAX can
have a Unibus or QBUS (depending on flavor) where a RX02 controller can
plug in.
The likely file system is FILES-11. But can be "othter", especially if
its a unix machine.
Allison
Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at
the beginning of this
thread I said...
Stop there.
8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.
The rest is left as an exercise for the reader. Guys in the building next door to me (a Science
lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks. They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was used to write the files. They may be CP/M, or some other format
entirely.
It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS,
I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org
http://www.LivingComputers.org/
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/04/2017 06:01 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
From: Terry Stewart
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM
You definitely can built an RMS ODS-2 file system on the Vax
780 floppy drive. I don't recall doing this very much, but
one time when I had to write a program that fixed a damaged
master file header, i tested it on a floppy file system
first. Usually, VAXes had some much better removable media
devices.
If you can read the first block on track zero, it will
probably make it clear what the file system is.
Jon
Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at
the beginning of this
thread I said...
Stop there.
8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.
Guys in the building next door to me (a Science
lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks. They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was used to write the files. They may be CP/M, or some other format
entirely.
It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS,
I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them. 
1:49 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/05/2017 10:24 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
If you can read the first block on track zero, it will
probably make
it clear what the file system is.
I apologize for being dense in this discussion, but it's pretty clear
that the disks are RX02 "double density" (I hesitate to call them MFM),
as that might confuse them with the System/3 MFM that's pretty much a
standard) and not readable by any hardware that the OP has. As far as I
can tell, the donors no longer own a VAX equipped to read them.
The file system used is therefore of only peripheral importance, is it not?
--Chuck
2:19 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they are
RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them (myself
being one of them!)
I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing. Better still, if it was
computer generated scan it and post the whole thng because printout
headers may assist in determing what the disks actually came from.
bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk
[cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 1:49 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?
On 05/05/2017 10:24 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
If you can read the first block on track zero, it will
probably make
it clear what the file system is.
I apologize for being dense in this discussion, but it's pretty clear
that the disks are RX02 "double density" (I hesitate to call them MFM),
as that might confuse them with the System/3 MFM that's pretty much a
standard) and not readable by any hardware that the OP has. As far as I
can tell, the donors no longer own a VAX equipped to read them.
The file system used is therefore of only peripheral importance, is it not?
--Chuck
2:47 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/05/2017 11:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
(myself being one of them!)
Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.
--Chuck
3:20 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
> Not really, in the event they would like them read
and we know they
> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
> (myself being one of them!)
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool
with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.
This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.
Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not
understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and then
let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files that
they want. I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client a
giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I concatenated
the goups of sectors that they wanted)
But HERE, one option consists of doing that using flux-transition
systems, and probably a significant amount of manual labor. Does software
currently exist yet for any of the flux-transition systems to easily
handle sector reads from this format?
OR
the only hardware (other than "flux-transition") that can read such disks
also probably runs the operating sytstem(s) that understand that file system!
If suitable compensation could be negotiated and arranged, Allison or Bill
Gunshannon, for example, could put the disk(s) into machines that have not
only the hardware capabilities, but are running the exact software that is
called for for getting at the files, and copy the files. That certainly
seems more practical than manual regeneration.
However, since the situation is one of "we don't know what is on these,
and are just CURIOUS", it is likely that there may not be a desire to
provide sufficient compensation to whoever might undertake the task.
This one is definitely substantially more WORK than "copy the files from
this Compupro disk". Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the
others to.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:28 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk
at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:20 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?
> Not really, in the event they would like them read
and we know they
> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
> (myself being one of them!)
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool
with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.
This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.
Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not
understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and then
let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files that
they want. I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client a
giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I concatenated
the goups of sectors that they wanted)
But HERE, one option consists of doing that using flux-transition
systems, and probably a significant amount of manual labor. Does software
currently exist yet for any of the flux-transition systems to easily
handle sector reads from this format?
OR
the only hardware (other than "flux-transition") that can read such disks
also probably runs the operating sytstem(s) that understand that file system!
If suitable compensation could be negotiated and arranged, Allison or Bill
Gunshannon, for example, could put the disk(s) into machines that have not
only the hardware capabilities, but are running the exact software that is
called for for getting at the files, and copy the files. That certainly
seems more practical than manual regeneration.
However, since the situation is one of "we don't know what is on these,
and are just CURIOUS", it is likely that there may not be a desire to
provide sufficient compensation to whoever might undertake the task.
This one is definitely substantially more WORK than "copy the files from
this Compupro disk". Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the
others to.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
4:50 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Free beer?!? No, no,no...
Allison
> Terry is
doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
5:58 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already
given up on this
Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday. It's no big deal. The
owners can decided what they want to do. Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.
I still think the best suggestion was the one about
posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
Here it is:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.j…
Some more info. Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density. It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It
can't see any data. Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
Terry (Tez)
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Free beer?!? No, no,no...
Allison
>
Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
6:01 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single Density.
It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is
all. It can't see
any data.
Could be an RX02 disk as people say....
Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Terry Stewart <terry at webweavers.co.nz>
wrote:
In case not
everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday. It's no big deal. The
owners can decided what they want to do. Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.
I still think the best suggestion was the one
about posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
Here it is:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-
vax-disk-cover.jpg
Some more info. Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density. It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It
can't see any data. Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
Terry (Tez)
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
wrote:
Free beer?!? No, no,no...
Allison
>
Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
8:16 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Sat, 6 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density.
Well, yes and no.
the RX02 can do a 128 byte per sector format in FM (single density)
BUT, then it can [OPTIONALLY] replace the content 128 byte FM sectors with
256 byte MFM ("double" density) content, while leaving the FM sector
headers in place.
Resulting in FM headers (that presumably SAY "128 bytes"), with 256
bytes of MFM content.
In addition to the index address mark and related inter sector gaps,
(check out P7 of:
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA8xx/5066…
each header would have an ID Address Mark, the cylinder number, the head
number, the sector number, and the sector size (0 for 128, 1 for 256, 2 for 512, 3 for
1024,
but in THIS case, it seems to refer to the space provided rather than the
actual content?), and a 2 byte CRC. After a suitable gap for write
splice, the content has a Data Address Mark, the content, and a 2 byte
CRC. Then another gap before the next sector.
(In THAT exaample, being single sided with 128 byte sectors, both the head
number and sector size are listed as zeroes)
Bill deserves a beer just for his offer to help.
Allison's expertise is worth more than we could afford to pay for.
It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that
is all. It can't see
any data.
Could be an RX02 disk as people say....
Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.
9:23 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
As far as RX02 formatted 8-inch floppies go, I have some original DEC
RT-11 V05.01 RX02 format distribution floppies which I managed to dump
to disk images a few years ago. I forget exactly how I did it now.
It was either with a real DEC RX02 drive and an M8029 RXV21 controller
in a Q-Bus PDP-11 system, or with an Scientific Micro Systems SMS1000
which has an RX02 compatible disk controller on its main "foundation
module" for a standard TM848-2E floppy drive.
Then I booted 2.11BSD on one of the two PDP-11 systems and simply used
"dd" to dump all of the floppy sectors to image files, then used ftp
to get the image files out to a modern system. Fortunately I didn't
have to deal with any bad sectors. Not sure how that would have
complicated things if I did.
Next to use those floppy image files with SIMH I had to reshuffle the
sector order into new image files copies. The RX02 driver in software
does a 2:1 sector interleave, a 6 sector per track skew, and starts at
track 1 and wraps around to track 0, which had to be undone.
(See the "raxfactr" routine in the 2.11BSC source file src/sys/pdpuba/rx.c)
6:11 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
Definitely VMS. And looks like RX02 (DEVICE Type DY).
I probably couldn't read it on a PDP-11, but I guess it depends on what
the default file structure on a VMS RX02 is. Of course a PDP-11 could
probably read the raw disk into an image and then you could setup
a VAX with VMS in SIMH and get at them. Oh, and it's not as much
work as it may sound like. Looks like they are Runoff files.
bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Terry Stewart via cctalk
[cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 5:58 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?
In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already
given up on this
Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday. It's no big deal. The
owners can decided what they want to do. Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.
I still think the best suggestion was the one about
posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
Here it is:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.j…
Some more info. Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density. It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It
can't see any data. Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
Terry (Tez)
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Free beer?!? No, no,no...
Allison
>
Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
6:13 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Looks like ODS2. The files appear to be RUNOFF. Quick guess is that they
are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
Jerry
In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's
already given up on this
Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday. It's no big deal. The
owners can decided what they want to do. Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.
I still think the best suggestion was the one
about posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
Here it is:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.j…
Some more info. Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density. It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It
can't see any data. Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
Terry (Tez)
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>
>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
>>
>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>
>>
> Free beer?!? No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org
6:26 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at
ieee.org> wrote:
Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first).
The .RNO files should contain human readable text. It no-one has a VAX
with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
Looks like ODS2. The files appear to be RUNOFF. Quick guess is that they
are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's
already given up on this
Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday. It's no big deal. The
owners can decided what they want to do. Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.
I still think the best suggestion was the one
about posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
Here it is:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.j…
<http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg>
Some more info. Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density. It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It
can't see any data. Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
Terry (Tez)
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
wrote:
> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>
>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
>>
>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>
>>
> Free beer?!? No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org <mailto:jsw at ieee.org>
7:16 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
After looking at all that...
The prompt is VMS the $. The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.
I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.
Either way the save command under VMS will have defaults for the device
target
and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).
Allison
On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org
On May 5,
2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first).
The .RNO files should contain human readable text. It no-one has a VAX
with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
Looks like ODS2. The files appear to be RUNOFF. Quick guess is that they
are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's
already given up on this
Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.
It's no big deal. The
owners can decided what they want to do. Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.
I still think the best suggestion was the one
about posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
Here it is:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.j…
<http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg>
Some more info. Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density. It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It
can't see any data. Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
Terry (Tez)
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
wrote:
> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>
>>
> Free beer?!? No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org <mailto:jsw at ieee.org>
6 May
6 May
1:13 a.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 5:16 PM, allison via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
After looking at all that...
The prompt is VMS the $. The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.
I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.
It is, though I don't know the version range. At least that's my
memory from 30 years ago when we once had to run RSX-11 for some
purpose that I've long forgotten...
Warner
Either way the save command under VMS will have
defaults for the device
target
and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).
Allison
On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org
On May 5,
2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first).
The .RNO files should contain human readable text. It no-one has a VAX
with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday. It's no big deal. The
owners can decided what they want to do. Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.
> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
Here it is:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.j…
<http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg>
Some more info. Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density. It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It
can't see any data. Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
Terry (Tez)
Looks like ODS2. The files appear to be RUNOFF. Quick guess is that they
are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
wrote:
> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>
>>
> Free beer?!? No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org <mailto:jsw at ieee.org>
4:21 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
I stand corrected. It appears that the handwritten label has a ODS1 style numerical UIC.
The printed directory may not actually be from the floppy media itself. It is
hierarchical. So perhaps it is from some ODS2 media that is holding the files
that are being transferred to/from the Floppy.
Jerry
On May 5, 2017, at 6:16 PM, allison via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
After looking at all that...
The prompt is VMS the $. The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.
I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.
Either way the save command under VMS will have defaults for the device
target
and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).
Allison
On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org
On May 5,
2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first).
The .RNO files should contain human readable text. It no-one has a VAX
with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday. It's no big deal. The
owners can decided what they want to do. Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.
> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
Here it is:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.j…
<http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg>
Some more info. Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density. It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It
can't see any data. Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
Terry (Tez)
Looks like ODS2. The files appear to be RUNOFF. Quick guess is that they
are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
wrote:
> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> I would. :-) Or maybe for beer.
>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>
>>
> Free beer?!? No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org <mailto:jsw at ieee.org>
8:43 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 7 May 2017, at 06:21, Jerry Weiss via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I stand corrected. It appears that the handwritten label has a ODS1 style numerical
UIC.
The printed directory may not actually be from the floppy media itself. It is
hierarchical. So perhaps it is from some ODS2 media that is holding the files
that are being transferred to/from the Floppy.
That?s certainly the way I read it.
The SAVE command most probably is a locally written command or DCL procedure invoked by a
symbol that does the magic of copying the files to the floppy.
The OpenVMS EXCHANGE command is the most likely tool used to transfer the data. As it?s
name implies, it is designed to move data to and from foreign systems (where foreign in
this context is most often a PDP-11 :-))
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia | air, the sky would be painted green"
5 May
5 May
3:46 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/05/2017 12:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with
Chuck.
I'm fine with that. Let a thousand flowers bloom...
Yes, there are situations, where the file system is
unknown or not
understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and
then let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files
that they want. I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client
a giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I
concatenated the goups of sectors that they wanted)
I didn't mean what I think you thought I meant. The immediate problem
is getting data--any data at all. If you can retrieve every sector on
the disk, then it's just a matter of software to unravel the filesystem.
DEC filesystems in general are pretty well documented, even if you have
to wade through the strangeness of things such as RAD50 file names.
Yes, flux-transition (e.g. catweasel) tools do exist for RX02
double-density reading and writing. I've used them in the past. At
least one runs under Linux and allows one to copy dd-style sector by sector.
But first you need the bits. Without those, the filesystem is just a
useless abstraction.
When I retrieve specialized formats (e.g. 8" closed-caption (WGBH)
disks), I acknowledge that there's a lot of guess-and-by-gosh to
unraveling them as no documentation seems to be extant. I'll always
include a "raw" sector-by-sector image as well as my
interpretation/translation. Similarly, for things like Brother 120K and
240K floppies, I keep the flux-transition recording around for future
reference until the customer signals his satisfaction.
Sometimes the filesystem organization is well documented, but the disk
has been corrupted (you see this with Apple HFS floppies and hard disks
more than you'd think) and you have to extract data without the benefit
of the filesystem structural information, piece by piece. It's a manual
process and fraught with error. So you keep the "raw" image around in
case the inevitable happens.
Data first--interpretation later.
--Chuck
4:14 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I didn't mean what I think you thought I meant.
correct
I apologize
The immediate problem
is getting data--any data at all. If you can retrieve every sector on
the disk, then it's just a matter of software to unravel the filesystem.
DEC filesystems in general are pretty well documented, even if you have
to wade through the strangeness of things such as RAD50 file names.
Yep
Sometimes easy, sometimes not
Yes, flux-transition (e.g. catweasel) tools do exist
for RX02
double-density reading and writing. I've used them in the past. At
least one runs under Linux and allows one to copy dd-style sector by sector.
good to know!
I don't anticipate doing any, but I'm glad to see that somebody has put
such together.
But first you need the bits. Without those, the
filesystem is just a
useless abstraction.
Quite true.
But, it turns out that there are multiple people handy who happen to have
the machine. And they could TRIVIALLY accomplish what we would have to
put a little bit of work into. If there weren't, then the next step
would, indeed be to look at raw images of tracks.
Data first--interpretation later.
Although, when I have an "unknown" disk, before I launch a sector editor,
I type "DIR", just in case it ISN'T anything challenging. I didn't try
flux-transition until I failed with my sector editor.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
5:06 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/05/2017 01:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Although, when I have an "unknown" disk,
before I launch a sector
editor, I type "DIR", just in case it ISN'T anything challenging. I
didn't try flux-transition until I failed with my sector editor.
The hardest that I've run into so far is verifying that a floppy has
*nothing* on it. Flux transition sampling showed zero correlation of
timings (i.e. SD almost 0.0). You could use magnetic developer and see
the tracks, but a photomicrograph showed no distinct reversal
boundaries. Probably DC-erased was my best guess.
--Chuck
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.
bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk
[cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 2:47 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?
On 05/05/2017 11:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
(myself being one of them!)
Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.
--Chuck
3:33 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
But I thought the problem was that most disk
controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.
That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option board,
etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.
Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image the
sectors, instead of copying the files, which might be appropriate if it
turns out that the OS that these were created with is unavailable. How
many operating systems use RX02?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:51 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 5/5/2017 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin via
cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon
via cctalk wrote:
In case not everyone noticed, but
Terry's already given up on this.
It is not necessary to become challenged
by and read every mystery disk in the
entire world. Things that are
forgotten, probably don't deserve all
this attention.
- J.
But I thought the problem was that
most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or
Cryoflux.
That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that
somebody who has a flux-transition
device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central
Point Option board, etc.) would have
to do the sector imaging.
Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such
as you or Allison, could image the
sectors, instead of copying the
files, which might be appropriate if
it turns out that the OS that these
were created with is unavailable.
How many operating systems use RX02?
3:55 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, 5 May 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:
In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already
given up on this.
It is not necessary to become challenged by and read every mystery disk in
the entire world. Things that are forgotten, probably don't deserve all this
attention.
We do put far more effort into such projects than they are "worth".
What does doing a crossword or Sudoku accomplish?
Sometimes we learn valuable information that can be applied to future
tasks. Sometimes not.
3:58 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
And, sometimes we just have fun.
bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk
at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:55 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?
On Fri, 5 May 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:
In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already
given up on this.
It is not necessary to become challenged by and read every mystery disk in
the entire world. Things that are forgotten, probably don't deserve all this
attention.
We do put far more effort into such projects than they are "worth".
What does doing a crossword or Sudoku accomplish?
Sometimes we learn valuable information that can be applied to future
tasks. Sometimes not.
3:58 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
Well, the probably do when your doing it for fun.
bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of js--- via cctalk [cctalk at
classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:51 PM
To: General at ezwind.net; Discussion@
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?
On 5/5/2017 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin via
cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon
via cctalk wrote:
In case not everyone noticed, but
Terry's already given up on this.
It is not necessary to become challenged
by and read every mystery disk in the
entire world. Things that are
forgotten, probably don't deserve all
this attention.
- J.
But I thought the problem was that
most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or
Cryoflux.
That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that
somebody who has a flux-transition
device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central
Point Option board, etc.) would have
to do the sector imaging.
Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such
as you or Allison, could image the
sectors, instead of copying the
files, which might be appropriate if
it turns out that the OS that these
were created with is unavailable.
How many operating systems use RX02?
3:55 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
All the PDP-11 ones. The directory listing would give a pretty good idea
which one it was. I am prety sure VMS actually could, too. And then
you have BSD and Ultrix on the VAX as well. Lots of choices.
Believe it or not, I am pretty sure I can make a disk image from the floppies
using VTServer that would then work on something like SIMH.
Like I said, lots of choices. And it could all be done for the cost of postage
I would imagine. I'm retired, and bored, always looking for things to keep
me busy. Doesn't look like its going to warm up enough this year to do
any work outside. Snow showers predicted for this weekend. :-(
bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk
at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:33 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RE: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
But I thought the problem was that most disk
controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.
That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option board,
etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.
Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image the
sectors, instead of copying the files, which might be appropriate if it
turns out that the OS that these were created with is unavailable. How
many operating systems use RX02?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:02 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/05/2017 03:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
In the PDP-8 realm not less than two maybe others.
In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10. ITC, more.
In the PDP-11 realm not less than four, RT11, RSTS, RSX11, TSX-11,
unix(several) and XXDP come to mind.
In the VAX realm not less than 3 come to mind, VMS, VAX-RT, Ultrix,
Unix, Others?
Different version may have also added variations.
Allison
But I thought the problem was that most disk
controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.
That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option
board, etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.
Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image
the sectors, instead of copying the files, which might be appropriate
if it turns out that the OS that these were created with is
unavailable. How many operating systems use RX02?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:27 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:02 PM, allison via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10.
ITC, more.
TOPS-10 doesn't have any filesystems for floppy disks, though the KL10
front-end PDP-11/40 running RSX-20F does, and there are utilities to access
RSX and RT11 filesystems from TOPS-10.
AFAIK, the situation is the same for TOPS-20. I don't have any idea
whether ITS, WAITS, Tenex, or the Compuserve Monitor ever had any different
floppy disk support.
8 May
8 May
3:06 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
From: Eric Smith
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2017 3:27 PM
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:02 PM, allison via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful
Tops10. ITC, more.
TOPS-10 doesn't have any filesystems for floppy
disks, though the KL10
front-end PDP-11/40 running RSX-20F does, and there are utilities to access
RSX and RT11 filesystems from TOPS-10.
Unsupported utilities.
Also, RSX-20F can only handle RX01 format. An RX02 drive can be used, but
not an RX02 format diskette.
AFAIK, the situation is the same for TOPS-20. I
don't have any idea
whether ITS, WAITS, Tenex, or the Compuserve Monitor ever had any different
floppy disk support.
TOPS-20 has no support for the front end RX01, nor does WAITS (which loads the
front end from DECtape, not floppy). I doubt that TENEX does, since it runs on
KA-10 and KI-10 processors (front ends are loaded from the main processor, not
from their own peripherals). ITS on the KL-10 is like
WAITS, AFAIK: DECtape,
not floppies. I can't speak to the CI$ monitor or
Tymcom-X.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org
http://www.LivingComputers.org/
4 May
4 May
7:02 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780? There was a RX01
attached via a LSI-11 as console.
Or they could just be disks used for data exchange. They would be in another DEC OS file
format, rather than ODS2.
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org
On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi guys,
Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at the beginning of this
thread I said...
Guys in the building next door to me (a Science
lab) have found some 8
inch floppy disks.
They want to see what?s on them, or at least to
archive them.
They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was
used to write the files.
They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.
It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
?...
Any comments most welcome.
Thanks!
Terry
7:16 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks
for a 11/780?
There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.
They would be in
another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.
Thanks Jerry,
No one actually knows. Attached to the front of the disks cover (on
printout paper) is a listing of the directory showing files. Some commands
to get that directory are also shown.
I also tried to examine this disks in pure MSDOS using PUTR V2.01, a DEC
File Transfer Program by John Wilson. It interrogated the drive for a
recognisable DEC OS, but couldn't find one.
Interestingly, I was able to format/initialise a blank 8 inch disk in the
DEC format I tried (I think it was OS/8) using this program, then mount it
successfully. This is why I think at least the hardware is working ok.
Cheers
Terry
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks
for a 11/780?
There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
Or they could just be disks used for data exchange. They would be in
another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.
Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org
On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi guys,
Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at the beginning of this
thread I said...
software
Guys in the building next door to me (a Science
lab) have found some 8
inch floppy disks.
> They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the was used to write the files.
I
They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.
It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, scoured the Internet for something that might
read them.
?...
Any comments most welcome.
Thanks!
Terry
7:30 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via
cctalk wrote:
And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere
on this VAX, I don't believe you'd be
able to read them at all... RX02 seeming
more likely with a VAX.
- J.
If these are
from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?
There was a RX01 attached
via a LSI-11 as console.
7:50 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote:
On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't
believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely
with a VAX.
If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
read the disks with any commodity floppy controller. You will, however,
get the sector ID headers.
DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
conflict with similar patterns in the headers.
A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it.
--Chuck
If these
are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a
11/780?
There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
7:56 p.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode,
you're not going to
read the disks with any commodity floppy controller. You will, however,
get the sector ID headers.
DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were
recording in
single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
conflict with similar patterns in the headers.
Thanks Chuck
Hmm...I'll do some more checking with IMD and Anadisk tonight. I haven't
looked at this disks in Anadisk yet. IMD did recognise some things...maybe
it was the Sector ID headers.
Even if I can't get anything off, I'm now very curious as to exactly what
I'm dealing with.
Terry
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote:
On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk
wrote:
And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't
believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely
with a VAX.
If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
read the disks with any commodity floppy controller. You will, however,
get the sector ID headers.
DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
conflict with similar patterns in the headers.
A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it.
--Chuck
If these
are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a
11/780?
There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
5 May
5 May
9:39 a.m.
New subject: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 5 May 2017, at 07:41, Terry Stewart via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary
format OTHER than VMS?
It has been a very long time since I had a VAX-11/780 to play with but as other people
have mentioned the format is much more likely to be RT-11 than ODS-2.
You mentioned that you had a directory listing of one or more of the floppies.
Can you scan one (or type it up)? The layout of the directory listing should give a clue
to the on-disk format.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia | air, the sky would be painted green"
2704
days inactive
2708
days old
51 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
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allisonportable＠gmail.com -
bill.gunshannon＠hotmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
huw.davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au -
imp＠bsdimp.com -
js＠cimmeri.com -
jsw＠ieee.org -
RichA＠livingcomputers.org -
spacewar＠gmail.com -
terry＠webweavers.co.nz