19 Dec
2006
19 Dec
'06
3:24 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
At which point I have a device assembled with lead-free solder,
soldered at too low a temperature, so it gets dry joints within a few
months. With plastic mechanical parts made from the cheapest plastic
imaginable that make a freebie toy look solid. I'd be lucky if that $89
machine lasted for a couple of weeks after the warrenty period...
Now guess which I am going to do...
-tony
---------------------------------------
Oh so cynical for such a young man! I work with lead free solder every day.
And WD builds tens of millions of drives with it every quarter. All without
"dry joints within a few months".
So why do you assume that good engineers wouldn't change the temperature of
the soldering machines? Processes change constantly. And every major
producer of PCBs has had more than 5 years to move to lead free environment.
That was not a difficult change for competent manufacturing engineers to
make.
Yet, I think this is the third or fourth time you've brought this up. You
must have had a bad experience someplace and are judging the technology by
that experience. I know a lot of hobbyists, as well as lab technicians, were
annoyed at having to buy new soldering equipment for higher temperature
boards.
But the world has moved on. Lead free soldering is as good and in many
cases better than lead based soldering. On the data from more than 100
million lead free PCBs, I can attest dry solder joints are not a problem.
As for the cheapest plastic imaginable, I just don't see that in the
marketplace. My current assignment is working with DVRs, STBs and TVs using
disk drives. So I always have a couple of dozen units torn down on my
bench. What I see are vendors that have had 20+ years to refine their
design, their processes and their materials. I see components and systems
that have an order (or orders) of magnitude better reliability than the
products of 20 years ago.
This "everything old is good, everything new is crap" is not verified by the
data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time.
Especially in a cut throat competitive industry where warranty costs from
poor products will put you out of business in weeks. Customers (and in the
US, laws) demand reliable products. Companies don't survive if they make
consumer products that wear out in "a year and day". (Anybody here remember
that poem?)
Tony, you have your preferences and choices and more power to you. But if
you did a study of current state of the art electronics, you would find it
to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it won't provide a
maintenance manual.
Billy
19 Dec
19 Dec
4:12 p.m.
Billy Pettit wrote:
Companies don't survive if they make consumer
products that wear out
in "a year and day".
Where's the incentive for a manufacturer to make something that'll last five
or ten years if a year down the road there's some hot new technology out and
they can be pressing consumers to upgrade to that?
To most consumers, "new technology" or "more features" equates to
"better
product", regardless of whether they have a large investment in the old
technology or whether they actually need the new features provided.
If a company can build a cheap product that'll last as long as it takes for
them to bring its next generation to market then they'll do it; it doesn't
make sense to do anything else.
Tony, you have your preferences and choices and more
power to you. But if
you did a study of current state of the art electronics, you would find it
to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it won't provide a
maintenance manual.
I think there's a line to be drawn somewhere, although it's hard to see what
the defining characteristics are. You're right in that things like hard drives
and computers as a whole do seem to last (failing capacitors and obsolescence
aside :) - but in most modern DVD players, TVs, VCRs, and stereo equipment
that I've been inside, the quality of construction (mechanical and electronic)
has been piss-poor and obviously built to the lowest cost possible (same seems
to hold true for things like kettles, toasters, microwaves etc.)
cheers
Jules
4:35 p.m.
On 20/12/06 00:12, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
I think there's a line to be drawn somewhere,
although it's hard to see what
the defining characteristics are. You're right in that things like hard drives
One word: RD53 :)
I've got every single RD53 we have as a company and every one has died, even
'brand new' ones. They're beautifully clean and perfect as museum exibits
though. I'm pleased to report my BA23 based MicroPDP 11/73 is still going
strong and passes all the XXDP+ tests I've thrown at it over the last 2
days.
and computers as a whole do seem to last (failing
capacitors and obsolescence
aside :) - but in most modern DVD players, TVs, VCRs, and stereo equipment
that I've been inside, the quality of construction (mechanical and electronic)
has been piss-poor and obviously built to the lowest cost possible (same seems
to hold true for things like kettles, toasters, microwaves etc.)
Computers, DVD players etc are now 'consumer grade' which means 'as cheap as
possible, 1 year warranty and bugger it if they break'
My 1995 Toshiba VCR is still going strong, ditto my Missus' Matsui (same
age) but I'd guess everything built after 2000 is utter rubbish for the
reasons you've stated already.
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
7:30 p.m.
This "everything old is good, everything new is
crap" is not verified by the
data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time.
One pet theory of mine is that many people see this, simply because
they are not seeing the whole sample. There were indeed plenty of old
things that were crap, and are now gone for good, discarded. People
tend to forget about those things, as they tend to remember only the
good old stuff. Likewise, they tend to forget about the modern things
that are good and work flawlessly, and remember the ones they have had
bad experiences with.
Consumer electronics is no exception - look at old radios or
(especially) old TVs. There was a lot of crap back then...
--
Will
20 Dec
20 Dec
3:34 p.m.
This "everything old is good, everything new
is crap" is not verified by the
data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time.
One pet theory of mine is that many people see this, simply because
they are not seeing the whole sample. There were indeed plenty of old
things that were crap, and are now gone for good, discarded. People
tend to forget about those things, as they tend to remember only the
good old stuff. Likewise, they tend to forget about the modern things
that are good and work flawlessly, and remember the ones they have had
bad experiences with.
Consumer electronics is no exception - look at old radios or
(especially) old TVs. There was a lot of crap back then... 
22 Dec
22 Dec
9:30 a.m.
On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 22:37 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Three.. :)
I recently got a 1999 Sony 21" monitor. Apparently, Sony does not have
spare components anymore. There are schematics, but if a custom part has
failed, I'm screwed.
This seems to happen quite a lot with late 90s/early 00s higher-end
monitors, and none of the vendors seem to be willing to sell any spares.
-Tore
serive manual
and parts backup. Alas I suspect I am the only person who
feels this way so I can't blame the manufacturers for not making one.
Make
that two... 
20 Dec
20 Dec
9:07 a.m.
Companies don't survive if they make consumer
products that wear out
in "a year and day".
Sure they do, provided it doesn't lose them too much.
This is commonly the case in many branches of consumer electronics,
where a comparatively large fraction of the customer base heat-seeks[%]
more often than that anyway.
But if you did a study of current state of the art
electronics, you
would find it to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it
won't provide a maintenance manual.
Actually, for him (and to some extent for me), not providing a
maintenance manual makes it inferior *per se* - it has to be enough
better to make up for that and then some to be counted as better.
[%] See http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/heatseeker.html.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
3:17 p.m.
Oh so cynical for such a young man! I work with lead
free solder every =
day.
And WD builds tens of millions of drives with it every quarter. All =
without
"dry joints within a few months". =20
So why do you assume that good engineers wouldn't change the temperature =
of
the soldering machines? Processes change constantly. And every major
I can't comment on whether it's possible to make reliable, long-lasting,
devices with lead-free solder (although there seem to be exemptions for
what I'd call 'critical' applications (military, aerospace, medical, etc)
in the UK regulations which allow the use of leaded solder for such
devices, so draw you own conclusions). But I can assure you I've had
enough dry joints in modern stuff assembled with lead free solder to last
me a lifetime. I've even had brand-new stuff that's had to be resoldered
before it will work.
And I've met plenty of other repairers (entusiasts and professionals) who
have had the same problems.
producer of PCBs has had more than 5 years to move to
lead free =
environment.
That was not a difficult change for competent manufacturing engineers to
make.
Yet, I think this is the third or fourth time you've brought this up. =
You
must have had a bad experience someplace and are judging the technology =
Not 'a' bad expeience, but many of them.
by
that experience. I know a lot of hobbyists, as well as lab technicians, =
were
annoyed at having to buy new soldering equipment for higher temperature
boards.
I can't see what a hobbyist would have to bother -- at least in the UK,
these directives only apply to equipment that's offered for sale. You cna
do what yuou like in stuff you build for yourself.
But the world has moved on. Lead free soldering is as good and in many
cases better than lead based soldering. On the data from more than 100
million lead free PCBs, I can attest dry solder joints are not a =
problem.
As for the cheapest plastic imaginable, I just don't see that in the
marketplace. My current assignment is working with DVRs, STBs and TVs =
Perhaps your consumer electronic devices are built a lot better than
ours.
THis all started with a mention of a $89 VCR. Over here that's a '50 quid
VCR' and yes, we get them at that sort of price. Now, when I last bought
a VCR, some 15 years ago, it cost nearly \pounds 1000 (or 20 times as
much). Are you seriously telling me that, even though there's been
inflation in that time, a modern 50 quid machine is going to be as well
made anf as long lasting. Becasue I simply don't see that.
using
disk drives. So I always have a couple of dozen units torn down on my
bench. What I see are vendors that have had 20+ years to refine their
design, their processes and their materials. I see components and =
systems
that have an order (or orders) of magnitude better reliability than the
products of 20 years ago.
I think the big change is that 20 years ago there was good stuff and bad
stuff out there. I mentioned I'd paid \pounds 1000 or so for a VCR. There
were much cheaper machines around at the time, sure, and they probably
have not lasted 15 years. But if you wanted to spend the money you could
get one that lasted, that was maintainable (the manufacturers not only
produced an excellent servive manual, but they sent it to me free of
charge when I asked about it), etc. Now I see \pounds 50 VCRs and \pounds
20 DVD players and nothing else. I'd love to be able to spend more money
and get a better machine, but I can't.
This "everything old is good, everything new is crap" is not verified by =
the
data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time.
Especially in a cut throat competitive industry where warranty costs =
from
poor products will put you out of business in weeks. Customers (and in =
the
US, laws) demand reliable products. Companies don't survive if they =
Not over here they don't. People upgrade because a new model is available
with more features (they they probably will never use). Provided the
machine lasts for the warranty period the manufacturer is happy. If it
fails after that time he gets to sell another one.
Tony, you have your preferences and choices and more
power to you. But =
if
you did a study of current state of the art electronics, you would find =
it
to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it won't provide a
maintenance manual.
Sorry, I have looked at modern stuff and found that in many cases the
performance and quality of construction is markedly inferior to that
which I already own.
Perhaps you could explain to me in what ways I am going to find it
'superior'.
-tony
4:41 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I think the big change is that 20 years ago there was
good stuff and
bad stuff out there. I mentioned I'd paid \pounds 1000 or so for a
VCR. There were much cheaper machines around at the time, sure, and
they probably have not lasted 15 years. But if you wanted to spend
the money you could get one that lasted, that was maintainable (the
manufacturers not only produced an excellent servive manual, but they
sent it to me free of charge when I asked about it), etc. Now I see
\pounds 50 VCRs and \pounds 20 DVD players and nothing else. I'd love
to be able to spend more money and get a better machine, but I can't.
pricerunner.com shows DVD players from ?17.89 to ?2495 (I'm not counting
the three outliers at ?10,001 and ?20,001 and ?35,001 because I assume
someone's mucking about with the database :-)).
Interestingly VCRs are still available and they run from ?31.89 to
?599.99. Obviously there are far fewer VCRs than DVD players (or
even DVD recorders I guess) and only two (both from JVC) live in
the >?150 bracket.
I make no claim that even the expensive ones will be well made, but
expensive ones do exist and, for DVD players at least, they are
not thin on the ground.
I know that service manuals are available for Sony and Philips stuff
and I see the odd JVC manual floating around on the net. I don't
know how much they are to buy (as I've never needed to ask) but
they do exist. Obviously anything modernmay well have custom Ics
but then again a few of the manuals I've seen suggest that at least
some of the ICs are common to multiple manufacturers units (i.e.
they are made by someone other than the manufacturer and sold to
anyone who wants to use them). They are not general purpose Ics
and are unlikely to be used as anything other than their narrow
intended purpose (e.g. random DVD processor or whatever) and
they may not be readily available ten years (or five years) from
now. But they might be (after all, valves still turn up as NOS).
Not over here they don't. People upgrade because a
new model is
available with more features (they they probably will never use).
Provided the machine lasts for the warranty period the manufacturer
is happy. If it fails after that time he gets to sell another one.
The thing had better last a good deal longer than the warranty as
otherwise
I won't be buying from that manufacturer (or even quite possibly the
online store that sold me the goods) and I'm not alone in that. Perhaps
I take it a little further than many others, but I know plenty of
"run-of-the-mill" consumers who get cheesed off if their music centre
packs in after a few years. I'll admit that they may well go out and
buy a new one two-four years down the road, but if they keep it, it
has to keep on working. (I'll admit that this generally does not seem
to apply to mobile phones - no idea why not).
Sorry, I have looked at modern stuff and found that in
many cases the
performance and quality of construction is markedly inferior to that
which I already own.
Perhaps you could explain to me in what ways I am going to find it
'superior'.
Well for a start it is available now :-) If you don't want it, then
that's fine. My Philips TV is about six years old now and gives a
better picture than the DECCA Series 80 chassis that it replaced
(although I'd still be watching the DECCA if the tube had not
decided that enough was enough). If it breaks I might fix it
(assuming its feasible) or I might replace it with a new flat screen.
My ?30 DVD player gives perfectly satisfactory results (maybe if I
had a 37" TV I'd think differently, but I don't ...) and my
cheap (?40) VCR just keeps going (despite kids deciding to shove
all sorts of garbage inside it, seemingly for fun). I'm not claiming
they'll last 20 years but the VCR has made it to five or six so far,
so I'm happy.
Antonio
21 Dec
21 Dec
6:46 a.m.
packs in after a few years. I'll admit that they
may well go out and
buy a new one two-four years down the road, but if they keep it, it
has to keep on working. (I'll admit that this generally does not seem
to apply to mobile phones - no idea why not).
The matter with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV set
is a TV set, there are no news on that. Same to a stereo, what else would
you want into a stereo? Maybe USB MP3 playing! but in the cell phone area
there are always news. Every week you can see 3 or 4 new models on Engadget,
one better than another. I have an "old" Nokia 6600, but I'm hoping I can
get a N-series soon. Better camera, more memory, bigger screen, faster
internet!
7 a.m.
In article <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0 at alpha>,
"Alexandre Souza" <alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> writes:
The matter with cell phones is that there is
always innovation. A TV set
is a TV set, there are no news on that.
...at least if you think like a TV manufacturer.
If you think like a computer manufacturer and see video as just
another data stream, then there's tons going on in TV electronics.
Same to a stereo, what else would
you want into a stereo?
Recording radio programs from a schedule into an internal hard disk
for later playback?
Maybe USB MP3 playing!
Now you're starting to get it.
The ossified portion of the electronics industry, particularly
consumer media electronics, is exactly that way because they have not
embranced the digital revolution. They are still thinking of TV
"features" in terms of analog circuitry.
Some of them are getting it now, but only some of them. When they
build digital electronics, its still being built the way TV sets were
built: closed, fixed systems with no upgradable parts and no
interfaces beyond existing analog interfaces. This is why its cheaper
to build a media PC and have it act as a DVR than it is to buy a
"consumer electronics" DVR that talks to your existing PCs.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
22 Dec
22 Dec
2:24 a.m.
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006, Richard wrote:
That's not television, that's data processing.
Haven't seen any analogue hard disk drives recently...
You don't need a stereo for that. A stereo is only useful for audio
playback of quality material.
The matter
with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV set
is a TV set, there are no news on that.
...at least if you think like a TV
manufacturer.
If you think like a computer manufacturer and see video as just
another data stream, then there's tons going on in TV electronics. Same to a
stereo, what else would
you want into a stereo?
Recording radio programs from a schedule into an internal
hard disk
for later playback? Maybe USB MP3
playing!
Now you're starting to get it. embranced the digital revolution. They are still
thinking of TV
"features" in terms of analog circuitry.
Because that's TV. My 1950s TV set is more useful than any modern TV
because it really displays what it receives without any delay and just
what it gets. Todays sets need seconds to switch channels, artificially
blur the image ("50Hz->100Hz conversion"), show artifacts (deinterlacer),
have highly nested unusable menus and so on...
interfaces beyond existing analog interfaces. This is
why its cheaper
to build a media PC and have it act as a DVR than it is to buy a
"consumer electronics" DVR that talks to your existing PCs.
You really don't know what you say. Do you think it's progressive to
download firmware updates into your TV set? Having to boot it? Fighting
against all kind of software bugs?
Christian
2:06 p.m.
Haven't seen any analogue hard disk drives
recently...
I have, I own one...
It's a single-platter, multiple fixed head unit. The control electronics
causes it to rotate (mains motor with disk+coil eddg current brake) at
one revolution per video frame time, and video is stored on the disk
using FM analuge recording (like the recording method used in a VCR). Of
course it plays pack 3 trakcs simulateously to give colour (RGB) output.
The verison I have is called a PPL 121 graphics system for the PDP11, and
includes an FM modulator and contorl electronics that links to a DR11-B
interface. I am told the technology originated in the 'action replay'
recorders used on television.
-tony
5:21 p.m.
Well, let's not forget a powerful marketing force--FEATURES, whether
you use them or not. I certainly know of folks who buy everything
from microwave ovens to mobile phones based on the
number of offered
features, whether or not they will ever use them.
Why, for instance does my local telco charge for Caller ID? It's
certainly not costing them anything to implement. Why does the same
telco give me MSN premium with my DSL service when all I really want
is an IP address? Because it's a perceived feature--and they can
charge for it.
My kitchen microwave oven is loaded with features. I've never used
any of them beyond the basic timed cook. I suspect a fair percentage
of purchasers would be happy with the "1 minute" and "Popcorn"
buttons.
In both cases, we need a new word, say "faux-tures" for "it doesn't
cost anything to provide this functionality".
A REAL feature in the above-mentioned microwave would be a stainless
steel or PTFE-coated interior instead of the usual miserable Chinese
epoxy paint. That'll cost ya.
Cheers,
Chuck
24 Dec
24 Dec
2:27 p.m.
Christian Corti wrote:
You really don't know what you say. Do you think
it's progressive to
download firmware updates into your TV set? Having to boot it? Fighting
against all kind of software bugs?
Do you think it's acceptable to be forced to live with faulty equipment
because there's no way to "take back" bad or faulty design decisions?
What people want and expect out of equipment has changed. If it hadn't,
we'd all still be driving around in Morris Minors. That's actually a
good example - it's impossible to achieve modern emissions figures from
a car engine fitted with a carburettor, and there is a lot to go wrong
in one. Fuel injection systems keep better track of mixture giving
cleaner emissions and better economy, and there's less to go wrong. If
anything does go wrong, it will tell you what's upset it.
Look at household appliances, too - how much do you think it costs to
make that big cam switch inside a washing machine? It's much cheaper to
replace all that with a PIC microcontroller (most common MCU I've seen
in washing machines) and a few triacs, maybe a relay or two.
Furthermore, if it turns out that there's a problem (Hey, the half-hour
wash cycle doesn't rinse properly!) it's easy to fix.
Gordon.
25 Dec
25 Dec
12:07 p.m.
What people want and expect out of equipment has
changed. If it hadn't,
we'd all still be driving around in Morris Minors. That's actually a
I wish I was!
good example - it's impossible to achieve modern
emissions figures from
a car engine fitted with a carburettor, and there is a lot to go wrong
in one. Fuel injection systems keep better track of mixture giving
You know, it all my years of car repair (although I don't drive, I've
repaired my father's cars for 30 years or so), I've only ever had to do
2 carburetter repairs. A needle valve that stuck closed, and a torn
diaphragm in a Znetih CDS.
cleaner emissions and better economy, and there's
less to go wrong. If
anything does go wrong, it will tell you what's upset it.
And now he has this Skoda with an electronic controller for the
igntiion/injhection and another one for the transmission. Sure I can read
out the fault codes and follow the procedures in the workshop manual if
it goes wrong. But if it fails '7 miles from nowherr and beyond' I think
I would have a much better chance of fixing a carburetter than this
system. (as indeed I once did to a friend's Land Rover. Seriously, the
police called me to say this chap had broken down and he felt I was the
one person who could get it going again. I did. A bit of insulating tape
to patch up the torn diaphragm in the carbutetter got him going again and
got him home. Next day he fitted a new diaphragm.
Look at household appliances, too - how much do you think it costs to
make that big cam switch inside a washing machine? It's much cheaper to
replace all that with a PIC microcontroller (most common MCU I've seen
in washing machines) and a few triacs, maybe a relay or two.
Furthermore, if it turns out that there's a problem (Hey, the half-hour
wash cycle doesn't rinse properly!) it's easy to fix.
Eh? I've rebuilt those cam-timer programmers. And I could do it again.
Much more quickly than having to reapir something based on a PIC with no
source code or even object code available.
-tony
3:31 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
No I didn't!.
> cleaner emissions and better economy,
This is an important case of newer being better. Sure, not as easy to
repair, but nevertheless better.
26 Dec
26 Dec
2:26 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
(Sorry Jay, this is getting horribly OT)
Remember the total emissions of a car are not just
those which come out
of the exhaust pipe. There's also the issue of making the car in the
first place, and (alas) scrapping it. Some so-called
environmetnally-friendly cars are anything but if you look at the whole
picture.
Yes, but there's a point centred around the early 1990s when cars were
sophisticated enough to have relatively clean emissions, simple enough
to repair with ordinary tools, and not have things like airbags that are
of questionable use and really really horrible to try and dispose of.
Gordon
27 Dec
27 Dec
3:57 a.m.
Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
Yes, but there's a point centred around the early
1990s when cars were
sophisticated enough to have relatively clean emissions, simple enough
to repair with ordinary tools, and not have things like airbags that are
of questionable use and really really horrible to try and dispose of.
I suspect that both Tony and Jos are right. Note that Jos said 'newer' car and
didn't place any kind of number on just *how* new :) I totally agree with you,
Gordon - the 'sweet spot' in terms of simplicity versus efficiency seemed to
be in the early 90s and anyone buying a car since then has probably been
making the problem worse rather than better.
The whole 'emissions at point of manufacture and disposal' does get
conveniently forgotten by the majority of people, though. I think there's
what, nine years of landfill left in the UK - after which existing sites will
be full and the law prohibits opening of any new ones. Yet there's virtually
nobody either trying to reuse the technology that we already have or making
new technology that's long-lived and easily repairable.
cheers
J.
4:09 a.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
The whole 'emissions at point of manufacture and
disposal' does get
conveniently forgotten by the majority of people, though. I think
there's what, nine years of landfill left in the UK - after which
existing sites will be full and the law prohibits opening of any new
ones. Yet there's virtually nobody either trying to reuse the technology
that we already have or making new technology that's long-lived and
easily repairable.
Well yes. And let's not forget that taken over the entire item
lifetime, a 3.5 litre Rangerover will be around 10 times cleaner than a
Prius. Why? Because it has a design life of around 20 years rather
than 5 years, and hasn't got so much nasty plastic and batteries and the
like to be manufactured and disposed of.
Gordon
9:19 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance
Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
Well yes. And let's not forget that taken over
the entire item
lifetime, a 3.5 litre Rangerover will be around 10 times cleaner than a
Prius. Why? Because it has a design life of around 20 years rather
than 5 years, and hasn't got so much nasty plastic and batteries and the
like to be manufactured and disposed of.
Gordon
Have any data to back it up? Is there a study that takes into account
recycling the materials, the intangible costs of the CO2 being released
into the air, etc.?
What you said sounds good. But it isn't necessarily accurate. Without
a full blown study that tried to take *all* factors into account, you
can't possibly know.
9:59 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance
On Christmas day, the lower element on our 26-year old built-in
kitchen oven went out. Fortunately, we could finish cooking dinner
by using the upper broiler element, although it took much longer.
So I was faced with the issue of (a) replacing an older oven or (b)
repairing it. New ovens have electronic controls and can be as
complex to operate as a VCR. Our old oven has a mechanical clock and
simple controls.
I opted to order a new element. When thinking about what a hostile
environment oven controls live in (heat, moistore, grease, smoke), I
had nightmares of repairing a new all-electronic unit years down the
road.
I have the same feeling about automatic dishwashers and electronic
controls.
Cheers,
Chuck
10:17 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
On Christmas day, the lower element on our 26-year old
built-in
kitchen oven went out. Fortunately, we could finish cooking dinner
by using the upper broiler element, although it took much longer.
So I was faced with the issue of (a) replacing an older oven or (b)
repairing it. New ovens have electronic controls and can be as
complex to operate as a VCR. Our old oven has a mechanical clock and
simple controls.
I opted to order a new element. When thinking about what a hostile
environment oven controls live in (heat, moistore, grease, smoke), I
had nightmares of repairing a new all-electronic unit years down the
road.
I have the same feeling about automatic dishwashers and electronic
controls.
Cheers,
Chuck
We had a washing machine with an electronic controller. It was such a pain
that the replacement had to have a mechanical timer - vital if you live
somewhere with unreliable mains, the electronic ones reset on power off, a
mechanical one just picks up where it left off.
Jim.
10:26 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance
Jim Beacon wrote:
We had a washing machine with an electronic
controller. It was such a pain
that the replacement had to have a mechanical timer - vital if you live
somewhere with unreliable mains, the electronic ones reset on power off, a
mechanical one just picks up where it left off.
Give it a couple of years. Washing machines will come with a USB port and
you'll be expected to hook them to your UPS. And they'll probably be able to
play music.
10:50 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance
to
Jim Beacon wrote:
> We had a washing machine with an electronic controller. It was such a
pain
> that the replacement had to have a mechanical
timer - vital if you live
> somewhere with unreliable mains, the electronic ones reset on power off,
a
mechanical one
just picks up where it left off.
Give it a couple of years. Washing machines will come with a USB port and
you'll be expected to hook them to your UPS. And they'll probably be able
play music.
That would be funny if it wasn't true :-(
Jim.
12:05 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance
Jim Beacon wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk>
I was in Fry's last year ad they had an "internet refrigerator".
There was a touchscreen PC built into the door. I disremember whether
it was ethernet or wireless, but the thing was set up for kiosk-style
web browsing and email. As far as I could tell, the computer had
nothing to do with running the fridge, but it was still a... "chilling"
sight.
I'll just get my hat.
Doc
Give it a couple of years. Washing machines will
come with a USB port and
you'll be expected to hook them to your UPS. And they'll probably be able
to
play music.
That would be funny if it wasn't true :-(
21 Dec
21 Dec
11:31 a.m.
Alexandre Souza wrote:
See, I'm somewhat atypical there... I want a phone that's good at making phone
calls. I don't want it to do a million other things, most of which I won't
need *ever*, let alone occasionally. I'd rather that all the time and money
that had gone into developing that phone had been spent on making it as easy
to use and as robust as possible - not in adding complexity via additional
features which just get in the way.
I'm the same with TVs - I just want to watch TV on them, not surf the 'net or
any other crap for which there are far better existing tools out there already.
Now if manufacturers want to make their products *optionally* do extra things
beyond the prime function, then I'm all for it - let the consumers pick and
choose what suits them best as individuals (and pay a price accordingly). But
don't compromise the base product just in order to pile on as many bells and
whistles as possible!
I know I'm far from alone in that view, but unfortunately a) it's still a
minority view, and b) it's not in a manufacturer's best interest to build a
product that is so good that it never needs to be replaced...
packs in after
a few years. I'll admit that they may well go out and
buy a new one two-four years down the road, but if they keep it, it
has to keep on working. (I'll admit that this generally does not seem
to apply to mobile phones - no idea why not).
The matter with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV
set is a TV set, there are no news on that. Same to a stereo, what else
would you want into a stereo? phone area there are always news. Every week you can
see 3 or 4 new
models on Engadget, one better than another. I have an "old" Nokia 6600,
but I'm hoping I can get a N-series soon. Better camera, more memory,
bigger screen, faster internet!
My life isn't so chaotic that I need 'net access on tap at every waking moment
of the day :-)
I've got a good camera; why would I need a bad one on a phone?
Bigger screen? All it needs to do is display a few numbers... heck, it doesn't
even need to be in colour.
etc. etc.
:-)
1:56 p.m.
William Donzelli wrote:
But my camera fits in my jacket pocket just as well as a phone does - for any
of those situations I'd have it with me [1] so that I could take good-quality
photos of things to aid memory. For any situation where I can reasonably
expect to want to take photos, I'll have a camera with me anyway - I just
don't need an inferior-quality version on another gadget.
[1] I deliberately bought a metal-bodied camera which felt solidy built,
expecting it might suffer a few knocks once in a while (yes, it has been to
the odd junkyard :) Most of the plastic creations out there look like they'd
fall apart if you so much as sneezed near them...
cheers
Jules
I've got a
good camera; why would I need a bad one on a phone?
Because they are handy. Really handy. When going thru a junkyard,
warehouse, swapfest, or whatever, they make an excellent extension to
ones visual memory. Don't expect high art - expect a visual notepad. 
11:46 a.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
My life isn't so chaotic that I need 'net
access on tap at every waking
moment of the day :-)
I've got a good camera; why would I need a bad one on a phone?
Bigger screen? All it needs to do is display a few numbers... heck, it
doesn't even need to be in colour.
etc. etc.
:-)
You luddite. 8-)
Peace... Sridhar
1:49 p.m.
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Jules Richardson wrote:
I *know* :-)
Seriously though, I'm all for doing things better or quicker or easier, and
I've got no problem with using technology to do that. What bugs me is when a
product adds on extras that I don't need, and what *really* bugs me is when
those extras hinder the product's ability to do the thing that I *do* need :-)
Ahh, that feels better. ;)
etc. etc.
:-)
You luddite. 8-) 
1:19 p.m.
See, I'm somewhat atypical there... I want a phone
that's good at making phone
calls. I don't want it to do a million other things, most of which I won't
need *ever*, let alone occasionally. I'd rather that all the time and money
that had gone into developing that phone had been spent on making it as easy
to use and as robust as possible - not in adding complexity via additional
features which just get in the way.
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to
use my telephone" I said that after a frustrating attempt to use a
"feature-rich" telephone sometime around 1990. I'm sure the sentiment
wasn't original, and probably not even the overall phrasing; someone must
have thought of that before me.
- Bjarne Strousstrup
2:11 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to
use my telephone" I said that after a frustrating attempt to use a
"feature-rich" telephone sometime around 1990. I'm sure the sentiment
wasn't original, and probably not even the overall phrasing; someone must
have thought of that before me.
- Bjarne Strousstrup
... sounds like karmic retribution for Bjarne after adding C++ onto C
2:33 p.m.
"I have always wished for my computer to be as
easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to
use my telephone" I said that after a frustrating attempt to use a
"feature-rich" telephone sometime around 1990. I'm sure the sentiment
wasn't original, and probably not even the overall phrasing; someone must
have thought of that before me.
My (insert preffered expletive here)! All the phones works the same. The
features are added, you can choose not to use them. And there are simple
phones (with 4 buttons: police, fire, medical and home) for cheap, anyone
can order these.
My phone is a kind of PDA. I keep my contacts on it, some photos, music
and games, and I feel like it.
2:11 p.m.
Alexandre Souza wrote:
Yes, but they're *there* for a lot of products, whether you want them or not.
If they're not there, and are optional extras, and you pay an additional fee
for them if you want them, fine.
But that's not how a lot of products work - given an idea of target cost for
the final product, development funds have been split up accordingly in order
to realise the product; some will go to core functionality and others will go
to the 'features'. Net result is that people end up paying for bits they don't
actually need, and/or the core product isn't as good at its core job as it
might have been because some funding went to the 'extras'.
Computer software, by and large (to bring it back on topic!), appears to have
gone the same way - in the old days separate software did one job only, but
that seems to be less and less of the case these days (even Linux-based
solutions aren't immune; it's becoming a real pain to sort out the bits you
personally need from the bits that you don't).
Hardware thankfully is resisting a little better; you can still mix and match
the bits in your PC / Sun box / whatever according to your own personal
requirements. There do seem to be a few manufacturers who are trying to change
this, too.
"I have
always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out
how to
use my telephone" I said that after a frustrating attempt to use a
"feature-rich" telephone sometime around 1990. I'm sure the sentiment
wasn't original, and probably not even the overall phrasing; someone must
have thought of that before me.
My (insert preffered expletive here)! All the phones works the same.
The features are added, you can choose not to use them. My phone is a kind of PDA. I keep my contacts on
it, some photos,
music and games, and I feel like it.
Which is great, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to. But people
should be able to pay for what they need, not the all-or-nothing approach
which is often forced upon us.
cheers
Jules
1:28 p.m.
On 21 Dec 2006 at 13:31, Jules Richardson wrote:
See, I'm somewhat atypical there... I want a phone
that's good at making phone
calls. I don't want it to do a million other things, most of which I won't
need *ever*, let alone occasionally. I'd rather that all the time and money
that had gone into developing that phone had been spent on making it as easy
to use and as robust as possible - not in adding complexity via additional
features which just get in the way.
I'd gladly settle for a mobile phone with a screen I could read and
buttons that I could see without digging for my "up close glasses".
More than once, someone has shoved a mobile with a glowing
rectangular blob on it in my face, saying "Look at this!"
Sigh--oh, the joys of age and presbyopia. :(
On the other hand, I still haven't figured out all of the menus and
controls on my home audio receiver. One of these days, I'll have to
sit down and read through the whole manual. It's easier to hook up
than to operate.
Cheers,
Chuck
1:54 p.m.
Alexandre Souza wrote:
See, I'm somewhat atypical there... I want a phone that's good at making phone
You are not alone there. I use a cellphone for making voice calls only.
OK, I may have sent the odd SMS message, but I don't _need_ that
facility. I certainly don't need a colour display, or internet access, or
a camera (all that I have seen make an instamatic's pictures look good!),
and so on.
packs in
after a few years. I'll admit that they may well go out and
buy a new one two-four years down the road, but if they keep it, it
has to keep on working. (I'll admit that this generally does not seem
to apply to mobile phones - no idea why not).
The matter with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV
set is a TV set, there are no news on that. Same to a stereo, what else
would you want into a stereo? calls. I don't want it to do a million other
things, most of which I won't
need *ever*, let alone occasionally. I'd rather that all the time and money
that had gone into developing that phone had been spent on making it as easy
The phrase 'Jakc of all trades and master of none' springs to mind.
-tony
24 Dec
24 Dec
2:05 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
You are not alone there. I use a cellphone for making
voice calls only.
OK, I may have sent the odd SMS message, but I don't _need_ that
facility. I certainly don't need a colour display, or internet access, or
a camera (all that I have seen make an instamatic's pictures look good!),
and so on.
Yeah, but since the SMS facility is actually required *anyway*, you may
as well make it accessible to the user.
Gordon
20 Dec
20 Dec
11:30 p.m.
I think the big change is that 20 years ago there was
good stuff and
bad stuff out there. I mentioned I'd paid \pounds 1000 or so for a
VCR. [...] Now I see \pounds 50 VCRs and \pounds 20 DVD players and
nothing else. I'd love to be able to spend more money and get a
better machine, but I can't.
Actually, I suspect you can, but you just don't know where/how. That
is, I would say the difference is that then, the good stuff was still
available in mass-market shops (even if only higher-end ones); now,
it's harder to find than that.
As an exmaple, I relatively recently (sometime around '00, I think) saw
a computer that as far as software went was a bog-standard peecee, but
was built, mechanically, kind of like those old black rotary-dial
phones from the pre-breakup Bell System, the ones you can stand in
boiling water overnight and drop ten feet onto concrete and the worst
that'll happen is you'll chip the casing: it used a heavy grade of
sheet steel - it could probably take a person standing on it in any
orientation - and everything was braced six ways from Sunday. It
actually looked as though it were targeted at a remote installation,
the sort of thing where it costs so much to send someone out to fix it
that an extra $5000 on the sticker price is ignorable. I don't know
(and don't think I want to know) what it cost, but it was *beautifully*
built.
This is relevant because I've seen only one such, and have never seen
one for sale anywhere - if I'd not chanced to see that one, I'd have no
reason to think such a thing exists as a commercial product.
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alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
arcarlini＠iee.org -
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cc＠corti-net.de -
cclist＠sydex.com -
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doc＠mdrconsult.com -
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