16 Oct
2007
16 Oct
'07
10:11 a.m.
Is anyone here qualified to design PCI cards? This morning I got the
bright idea that since PCI floppy interfaces don't seem to exist, one of
us ought to make one. I'm aware of the Catweasel, but it doesn't appear
to behave as a bog-standard floppy interface. This wouldn't be a
replacement for the Catweasel, more of a compliment, especially for
machines that lack a floppy interface entirely or can't handle
double-density 5.25" media.
I can source the chips. Who here knows PCI?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
16 Oct
16 Oct
10:29 a.m.
--- David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
Is anyone here qualified to design PCI cards? This
morning I got the
bright idea that since PCI floppy interfaces don't
seem to exist, one of
us ought to make one. I'm aware of the Catweasel,
but it doesn't appear
to behave as a bog-standard floppy interface. This
wouldn't be a
replacement for the Catweasel, more of a compliment,
especially for
machines that lack a floppy interface entirely or
can't handle
double-density 5.25" media.
I can source the chips. Who here knows PCI?
That sounds like an excellent idea. I, too, have often
wished for a PCI floppy controller. The Catweasel is
expensive and very hard to find, and probably overkill
for most tasks.
Similarly, I have often wished for a PCI MDA board...
-Ian
10:38 a.m.
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
That sounds like an excellent idea. I, too, have often
wished for a PCI
floppy controller. The Catweasel is expensive and very hard to find, and
probably overkill for most tasks.
Similarly, I have often wished for a PCI MDA board...
The Catweasel isn't that hard to find, but it can indeed be overkill. I
want one for Commodore purposes. But I'd also like a regular PCI floppy
controller as well. I emailed Howard Harte to see if he'd be interested
in this.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
10:31 a.m.
David Griffith wrote:
Is anyone here qualified to design PCI cards? This
morning I got the
bright idea that since PCI floppy interfaces don't seem to exist, one of
us ought to make one. I'm aware of the Catweasel, but it doesn't appear
to behave as a bog-standard floppy interface. This wouldn't be a
replacement for the Catweasel, more of a compliment, especially for
machines that lack a floppy interface entirely or can't handle
double-density 5.25" media.
I'm not sure, you like to go PCI.
(PCI is dying already, PCIe kills the budget ;-) )
Probably to expensive anyway.
We talked on this list few days ago, that the easiest is to put a
ucontroller and a floppy controller on a board, communicate via v24/usb.
Why can't you use something like that ?
10:36 a.m.
On 16 Oct 2007 at 10:11, David Griffith wrote:
Is anyone here qualified to design PCI cards? This morning I got the
bright idea that since PCI floppy interfaces don't seem to exist, one of
us ought to make one. I'm aware of the Catweasel, but it doesn't appear
to behave as a bog-standard floppy interface. This wouldn't be a
replacement for the Catweasel, more of a compliment, especially for
machines that lack a floppy interface entirely or can't handle
double-density 5.25" media.
While I can support your idea, one might as well make the floppy
controller a standalone device, given the availability of
microprocessor cores. In either case, new software drivers weill be
needed, as the legacy floppy depends on the old ISA-style DMA (does
that exist for any other reason in modern systems without ISA
slots?). One could supply local RAM instead, but what with the PCI
interface logic, the drivers and the board cost, it might as well be
a USB, Firewire or ethernet device that could hook to darned near
anything, not just PeeCee boxes.
My two inflation-prone cents worth, at any rate.
Cheers,
Chuck
18 Oct
18 Oct
10:19 p.m.
On Oct 16, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
PCI doesn't imply PeeCee. I have a metric buttload of PCI slots
around here, and not a PeeCee to be seen. (well, except a Sun-badged
Opteron box)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
Is anyone here
qualified to design PCI cards? This morning I got the
bright idea that since PCI floppy interfaces don't seem to exist,
one of
us ought to make one. I'm aware of the Catweasel, but it doesn't
appear
to behave as a bog-standard floppy interface. This wouldn't be a
replacement for the Catweasel, more of a compliment, especially for
machines that lack a floppy interface entirely or can't handle
double-density 5.25" media.
While I can support your idea, one might as well make the floppy
controller a standalone device, given the availability of
microprocessor cores. In either case, new software drivers weill be
needed, as the legacy floppy depends on the old ISA-style DMA (does
that exist for any other reason in modern systems without ISA
slots?). One could supply local RAM instead, but what with the PCI
interface logic, the drivers and the board cost, it might as well be
a USB, Firewire or ethernet device that could hook to darned near
anything, not just PeeCee boxes.
11:11 p.m.
On 19 Oct 2007 at 1:19, Dave McGuire wrote:
I know that, but my point was that there are plenty of boxes out
there that don't have PCI slots (PeeCees later than a certain vintage
generally do). Neither to laptops, notebooks and whole bunch of
other platforms. Since the cost of silicon at this point is fairly
negligible, why not expand the base of possible users to its maximum?
Cheers,
Chuck
While I can
support your idea, one might as well make the floppy
controller a standalone device, given the availability of
microprocessor cores. In either case, new software drivers weill be
needed, as the legacy floppy depends on the old ISA-style DMA (does
that exist for any other reason in modern systems without ISA
slots?). One could supply local RAM instead, but what with the PCI
interface logic, the drivers and the board cost, it might as well be
a USB, Firewire or ethernet device that could hook to darned near
anything, not just PeeCee boxes.
PCI doesn't imply PeeCee. I have a metric buttload of PCI slots
around here, and not a PeeCee to be seen. (well, except a Sun-badged
Opteron box) 
19 Oct
19 Oct
2:20 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
I was thinking about this today and it occurred to me that the
ultimate solution already exists. Howard Harte's eZ80SBC is a 50MHz
Z80 with plenty of RAM, an ethernet interface, 2 SD memory card
slots, a USB peripheral port, a USB host/peripheral port
(selectable), and 4 serial ports.
Ethernet would be a viable communication method for transferring the
images. TCP or UDP IP would also be easier for more operating
systems to support. There is also of course the USB peripheral
interface (2 of them actually)
I mean, what could be more fun than a disk drive transfer tool that
can also run CPM at lightening speeds? : )
Increased demand for Howard's product would help support his efforts
in furthering CP/M support and development.
What do you guys think? The thing has a peripheral expansion
header. We could hook a modern floppy chip to that, connectors for
different drives, and off we go...
Grant
2:42 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Grant Stockly wrote:
What do you guys think? The thing has a peripheral
expansion header.
We could hook a modern floppy chip to that, connectors for different
drives, and off we go...
What's the cost like? Is the board made up of separate components (CPU, ROM,
RAM, USB chip, buffers for I/O, Ethernet chip etc.)?
I'd find Ethernet more useful than USB, and in an ideal world I'd prefer a
board where the functional areas are segregated (rather than some complex and
expensive single chip, where if disaster strikes the thing basically needs
throwing out and replacing as a complete unit)
cheers
Jules
2:52 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 22:42 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote:
I'd find Ethernet more useful than USB, and in an
ideal world I'd prefer a
board where the functional areas are segregated (rather than some complex and
expensive single chip, where if disaster strikes the thing basically needs
throwing out and replacing as a complete unit)
You get USB ports on microcontrollers costing less than a pound these
days.
Gordon
3:06 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
You get USB ports on microcontrollers costing less
than a pound these
days.
I am not sure how much a pound is but know I got years ago a motherboard (166
MHZ?)
with a USB port. The cable to connect to the PC case from the mother board
was about $75 Canadian. You figure how many pounds that would cost?
Gordon
3:14 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 16:06 -0600, woodelf wrote:
Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
You got ripped off, if that's the little cable from the header on the
motherboard to a USB socket. My local computer shop doesn't even bother
to charge for them, unless you want more than a handful.
1GBP is currently roughly US$2, although the dollar is still dropping.
Gordon
You get USB ports on microcontrollers costing
less than a pound these
days.
I am not sure how much a pound is but know I got years ago a motherboard
(166 MHZ?)
with a USB port. The cable to connect to the PC case from the mother board
was about $75 Canadian. You figure how many pounds that would cost?
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
You got ripped off, if that's the little cable
from the header on the
motherboard to a USB socket. My local computer shop doesn't even bother
to charge for them, unless you want more than a handful.
I was thinking the pound was about 4 to 5 canadian dollars.
That was about 10 years ago for the USB cable.
1GBP is currently roughly US$2, although the dollar is
still dropping.
Gordon
Well now is good time to buy from the USA, at least in Canada.
Ben.
20 Oct
20 Oct
11:52 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
And thusly were the wise words spake by woodelf
I was thinking the pound was about 4 to 5 canadian dollars.
That was about 10 years ago for the USB cable.
Recently the US and Canadian $ became equal.. The last time that
happened was about 30 years ago. Now 1 US$ = $1.03 Cad.
Cheers,
Bryan
1GBP is currently roughly US$2, although the
dollar is still dropping.
Gordon
Well now is good time to buy from the USA, at least in Canada. 
12:06 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Bryan Pope wrote:
And thusly were the wise words spake by woodelf
Other way around. $1.00 USD = $0.966 CAD
Doc
I was thinking the pound was about 4 to 5 canadian
dollars.
That was about 10 years ago for the USB cable.
Recently the US and Canadian $ became equal.. The last time that
happened was about 30 years ago. Now 1 US$ = $1.03 Cad. 1GBP is currently roughly US$2, although the
dollar is still dropping.
Gordon
Well now is good time to buy from the USA, at least in Canada.
7:28 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Doc Shipley wrote:
Or I just use 1:1 ratio. Tax and shipping still needs to be figured
in.
Recently the
US and Canadian $ became equal.. The last time that
happened was about 30 years ago. Now 1 US$ = $1.03 Cad.
Other way around. $1.00 USD = $0.966 CAD Doc
19 Oct
19 Oct
4:12 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
At 01:42 PM 10/19/2007, you wrote:
Grant Stockly wrote:
The base eZ80SBC from howard is $250. Add $100 for the disk board...
What do you guys think? The thing has a
peripheral expansion header.
We could hook a modern floppy chip to that, connectors for
different drives, and off we go...
What's the cost like? Is the board made up of separate components
(CPU, ROM, RAM, USB chip, buffers for I/O, Ethernet chip etc.)?
I'd find Ethernet more useful than USB, and in an ideal world I'd
prefer a board where the functional areas are segregated (rather
than some complex and expensive single chip, where if disaster
strikes the thing basically needs throwing out and replacing as a
complete unit)
4:28 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Grant Stockly wrote:
The base eZ80SBC from howard is $250. Add $100 for
the disk board...
Hmmm, I suppose if a SASI interface and ST412 interface could be added to talk
to those kind of devices too, $250 wouldn't be too bad for the 'core' portion.
$350 for just a floppy interface is perhaps a little on the high side, though.
(Someone here was working on a generic ST412 interface - presumably
over-sampling tack data and processing in software - weren't they? Can't
remember who it was now...)
6:21 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Jules Richardson wrote:
Grant Stockly wrote:
There's already an inexpensive eZ80F91 development board from Zilog for
the budget conscious -only $99. And it's complete with cables, jtag
debugger, IDE, and C compiler. It has an ethernet port among other
interfaces. It doesn't have USB, but easily done with a RS232-USB
converter. The expansion interface provides all the GPIO's to let you
connect a floppy interface.And it's available from Mouser or Digikey.
http://www.zilog.com/products/partdetails.asp?id=eZ80F910200ZCO
=Dan
The base eZ80SBC from howard is $250. Add $100
for the disk board...
Hmmm, I suppose if a SASI interface and ST412 interface could be added
to talk to those kind of devices too, $250 wouldn't be too bad for the
'core' portion. $350 for just a floppy interface is perhaps a little
on the high side, though.
(Someone here was working on a generic ST412 interface - presumably
over-sampling tack data and processing in software - weren't they?
Can't remember who it was now...)
20 Oct
20 Oct
1:59 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Dan Roganti wrote:
Jules Richardson wrote:
Hmm, I'll take a look at that - I like the sound of it. I really don't need
USB, and I can't imagine using this where I don't have Ethernet handy anyway.
(Even if I did, I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to put a CF interface onto
the hardware, and 1GB of local CF storage is cheap these days - if it's got a
RS232 interface, it'd be trivial to hook a terminal up to it and drive it that
way)
I've not got any free time for the coming couple of months, but one of the
things that's got in the way in the past is the lack of a suitable cheap
development board to play around with and try some stuff out. Maybe later this
year...
cheers
Jules
Grant Stockly wrote:
There's already an inexpensive eZ80F91 development board from Zilog for
the budget conscious -only $99. And it's complete with cables, jtag
debugger, IDE, and C compiler. It has an ethernet port among other
interfaces. It doesn't have USB, but easily done with a RS232-USB
converter. The expansion interface provides all the GPIO's to let you
connect a floppy interface.And it's available from Mouser or Digikey. The base eZ80SBC from howard is $250. Add $100
for the disk board...
Hmmm, I suppose if a SASI interface and ST412 interface could be added
to talk to those kind of devices too, $250 wouldn't be too bad for the
'core' portion. $350 for just a floppy interface is perhaps a little
on the high side, though.
10:53 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
interfaces. It doesn't have USB, but easily done
with a RS232-USB
converter. The expansion interface
I don't like that. If this were the option, I would rather use my
own USB converter.
For my own project I'm using a 200MHz ARM to handle the USB and
FAT. Cheaper than the other options too. : ) It does make me feel
kind of bad though...
23 Oct
23 Oct
7:55 p.m.
New subject: Help on a Computer Automation system
I received this email this week. Possibly someone with CA experience can
help him (Lars, are you there?).
Please contact him directly.
Bob
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You have a picture of a CA Naked mini on your site, so I thought that
perhaps you might be able to help me....
I'm a volunteer at the Oakland Air Museum. We have an old flight
simulator from the Alameda Naval Airstation. It uses a couple CA Naked
minis, as well as misc other embedded processors. I've been slowly
trying to breath life back into the system, starting with the computer
proper with all peripherals disconnected.
We have quite an extensive collection of documentation for the system
since it was a military training device. Everything seems to power up,
and I can read and write data to memory using the front panel, but I
can't get it to boot. All evidence indicates that both the floppy and
removable hard drive are not working, and even the CRT terminal may not
be fully working (ie even if it did boot I might not even know it).
Unfortunately I got rid of my last 8" floppy drive and data terminal
many many years ago.
Any suggestions on how to go about resuscitating one of these? Also,
any suggestions on where to start looking for basic repair stuff, such
as a card extender?
Any help or pointers would be appreciated.
--jon
jonb at jmbaai.com
29 Oct
29 Oct
8:45 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Oct 19, 2007, at 9:21 PM, Dan Roganti wrote:
There's already an inexpensive eZ80F91 development board from Zilog
for the budget conscious -only $99. And it's complete with cables,
jtag debugger, IDE, and C compiler. It has an ethernet port among
other interfaces. It doesn't have USB, but easily done with a RS232-
USB converter. The expansion interface provides all the GPIO's to
let you connect a floppy interface.And it's available from Mouser
or Digikey.
http://www.zilog.com/products/partdetails.asp?id=eZ80F910200ZCO
I have that board...it's what I used to evaluate the eZ80F91 for a
few projects a couple of years ago. It's a good development system
overall, but their C compiler is Windows-only, so I was stuck with
running it under an emulator. I hope they fix that soon.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
The base eZ80SBC from howard is $250. Add $100 for
the disk
board...
Hmmm, I suppose if a SASI interface and ST412 interface could be
added to talk to those kind of devices too, $250 wouldn't be too
bad for the 'core' portion. $350 for just a floppy interface is
perhaps a little on the high side, though.
(Someone here was working on a generic ST412 interface -
presumably over-sampling tack data and processing in software -
weren't they? Can't remember who it was now...) 
19 Oct
19 Oct
9:14 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Friday 19 October 2007 17:42, Jules Richardson wrote:
Grant Stockly wrote:
Have a look here:
http://www.ez80sbc.com/index.htm
That should answer your questions.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
What do you guys think? The thing has a
peripheral expansion header.
We could hook a modern floppy chip to that, connectors for different
drives, and off we go...
What's the cost like? Is the board made up of separate components (CPU,
ROM, RAM, USB chip, buffers for I/O, Ethernet chip etc.)? 
20 Oct
20 Oct
6:30 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Grant Stockly wrote:
I've been working on a project for a client lately, which has as it's base
processor core:
- 400mhz Blackfin processor
+ Includes ethernet, Async serial, SPORT (synchronous serial), Multiple
DMA channels, SDRAM controller & lots of other goodies.
- 16M SDRAM
- 8M SPI (serial) flash (boots from this)
All this built into less than 2 square inches of board space. It can
even run Linux if you want.
It's blazingly quick - I'm pretty sure you could implement most any
floppy interface "in software" - no need for a dedicated and possibly
limiting floppy controller chip.
16M gives plenty of room for code, track buffers etc. Since it's
flash based, you can easily load/update code at any time. If you wanted
you could bootstrap code over the ethernet interface and just load new
code for vastly different encoding etc. Something like this would make
an ideal universal floppy interface.
It would cost a bit to get the boards laid out etc., but after that
the per-unit cost would be very low - there's not all that much
hardware needed.
Just a thought.
Dave
--
dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html
What do you guys think? The thing has a
peripheral expansion header.
We could hook a modern floppy chip to that, connectors for different
drives, and off we go...
What's the cost like? Is the board made up of separate components (CPU, ROM,
RAM, USB chip, buffers for I/O, Ethernet chip etc.)?
I'd find Ethernet more useful than USB, and in an ideal world I'd prefer a
board where the functional areas are segregated (rather than some complex and
expensive single chip, where if disaster strikes the thing basically needs
throwing out and replacing as a complete unit)
9:47 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On 20 Oct 2007 at 8:30, Dave Dunfield wrote:
I've been working on a project for a client
lately, which has as it's base
processor core:
After I read the original email about the EZ80 board for $200, my
reaction was that one could get a PC104 evaluation board with any of
the ARM9-class CPUs for about half that and many other non-PC104
evaulation boards with "kitchen sink" type interfaces for about the
same or less.
While a 50MHz processor may seem fast, a 400MHz 32-bit CPU can
probably run Z80 emulation faster, while hosting Linux.
I suspect that most people who have a need to handle floppies
regularly already have the gear in some shape, even if it's a
Catweasel.
My real question is "Does this fall under the "good idea" category or
is there a real demand for this?" And "Is there enough demand for
someone to invest time and money getting a model to a point where he
won't go broke when few purchase it?"
Cheers,
Chuck
10 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Chuck Guzis wrote:
While a 50MHz processor may seem fast, a 400MHz 32-bit
CPU can
probably run Z80 emulation faster, while hosting Linux.
Sorry, I don't care if it runs linux or windows.
(which actually defeats the purpose of being easily programmed)
I was thinking about a small controller, which does the job.
Nothing else, but does the job right.
I don't need USB/Ethernet and all this BS. If I need the data written or
read from a valuable floppy, I can wait a minute to transfer it via V24
which most computers have. (Please don't kill me for this "most").
So, something like a z80 derivate (free compiler & tools !!!), some
sram/flash + fdc. probably a connector with all CPU signals in case
somebody likes to wire up something different (fpga, WD fdc, Intel FDC,
whatever). And already the connectors to access 8", 5.25" and 3.5"
floppies. That's it. Two or four layers, square and done.
Just my 0.0000000006 $
10:14 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On 20 Oct 2007 at 11:00, e.stiebler wrote:
So, something like a z80 derivate (free compiler &
tools !!!), some
sram/flash + fdc. probably a connector with all CPU signals in case
somebody likes to wire up something different (fpga, WD fdc, Intel FDC,
whatever). And already the connectors to access 8", 5.25" and 3.5"
floppies. That's it. Two or four layers, square and done.
An old PC with some ISA slots (free, usually) and a few ISA prototype
boards (about $20 or so the each) would seem to satisfy the basic
need pretty handily, wouldn't it? Easy to program, free tools, etc.
Or am I missing something important here?
Cheers,
Chuck
10:30 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 20 Oct 2007 at 11:00, e.stiebler wrote:
Nothing important, probably all a matter of personal preference. I'm
trying to get rid of PCs(running out of space) and a card which can do
the job sounds better. But as always, YMMV ;-)
So, something like a z80 derivate (free compiler
& tools !!!), some
sram/flash + fdc. probably a connector with all CPU signals in case
somebody likes to wire up something different (fpga, WD fdc, Intel FDC,
whatever). And already the connectors to access 8", 5.25" and 3.5"
floppies. That's it. Two or four layers, square and done.
An old PC with some ISA slots (free, usually) and a few ISA prototype
boards (about $20 or so the each) would seem to satisfy the basic
need pretty handily, wouldn't it? Easy to program, free tools, etc.
Or am I missing something important here? 
12:28 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
e.stiebler wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I think I've mentioned my USB floppy drive controller here before...
At the moment the design is 90% done - I just need to add the I/O buffers to
the schematic and route the PCB. For the latter part, I'll probably need to
rig up some form of KiCAD-to-FreeRouting (via SPECCTRA DSN) interface.
If I can get the PCB done reasonably quickly (say before noon tomorrow) I'll
cook up a prototype. Of course, to achieve that, I'll have to get off my lazy
butt and probably stop listening to the CDs I just bought...
Current target price is ?50 (or about $100 US at current exchange rates).
Of course, if you want portable, you get a Linksys NSLU2 and bolt the FDC onto
that via a USB port. Add a pendrive and a 5V power supply (and whatever your
floppy drive wants) and you've got a portable one-touch floppy disc reader.
Better to use a laptop, though, then you can analyse the image and make sure
it decodes properly.
--
Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination.
An old PC with some ISA slots (free, usually) and
a few ISA prototype
boards (about $20 or so the each) would seem to satisfy the basic need
pretty handily, wouldn't it? Easy to program, free tools, etc.
Or am I missing something important here?
Nothing important, probably all a matter of personal preference. I'm
trying to get rid of PCs(running out of space) and a card which can do
the job sounds better. But as always, YMMV ;-)
10:32 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Chuck Guzis wrote:
An old PC with some ISA slots (free, usually) and a few ISA prototype
boards (about $20 or so the each) would seem to satisfy the basic
need pretty handily, wouldn't it? Easy to program, free tools, etc.
Or am I missing something important here?
"small"? :)
I recently picked up a 386-based ISA SBC and a 3-slot backplane to do
exactly this. The whole thing, less actual floppy drives, should run on
the PSU from an external hard drive enclosure, and just about fit in a
standard 2-bay 3.5" drive enclosure.
The big win, which is doubtful, will be if the SBC's FDC can do
single-density. If that turns out true, I don't even need the backplane.
Alas, that "free time" thing has been a problem lately, so I haven't
touched this in a month, or even tested the 386 yet.
Doc
12:18 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On 20 Oct 2007 at 12:32, Doc Shipley wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Oh, golly the casemodders have been fooling around with small-
footprint mobos for years.
And there's always PC104, no? Basically ISA--and a variety of
processors (yes, even x86) are available with that bus, as well as
prototyping cards.
Cheers,
Chuck
.
An old PC with some ISA slots (free, usually) and a few ISA prototype
boards (about $20 or so the each) would seem to satisfy the basic
need pretty handily, wouldn't it? Easy to program, free tools, etc.
Or am I missing something important here?
"small"? :)
1:08 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 20 Oct 2007 at 12:32, Doc Shipley wrote:
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you were talkng about "an old [cheap]
PC with some ISA slots and some ISA prototype boards". :)
I have a bunch of small-form-factor boards, from EBX to mini-ITX to
ISA-bus and PICMG industrial SBC. Only the industrial ISA and PICMG
systems have ISA peripheral slots, and they're mostly neither cheap nor
small. I looked for over a year before I found an ISA backplane with
<10 slots.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Oh, golly the casemodders have been fooling around with small-
footprint mobos for years. An old PC with some ISA slots (free, usually) and
a few ISA prototype
boards (about $20 or so the each) would seem to satisfy the basic
need pretty handily, wouldn't it? Easy to program, free tools, etc.
Or am I missing something important here?
"small"? :) And there's always PC104, no? Basically ISA--and
a variety of
processors (yes, even x86) are available with that bus, as well as
prototyping cards.
Well, yeah. Ergo the 386 SBC, which has PC104 as one of its
attractions. That's likely to be its network connection.
Doc
1:55 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On 20 Oct 2007 at 15:08, Doc Shipley wrote:
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you were talkng
about "an old [cheap]
PC with some ISA slots and some ISA prototype boards". :)
To use an old chestnut, "What do you want, egg in your beer?" :)
That's one of the problems we seem to have to deal with in modern
times. Not much mass-produced stuff is really hack-able to purpose--
and custom devices are expensive.
I can get DSL modems with ARM7 MPUs, wireless, USB and 100BaseT as
well as some sort of serial connection, flash and generous DRAM that
are running Linux for next to nothing at the local recycler (or from
Freecycle). There's just no easy way to dig into the thing to add my
own doodads, otherwise I'd have a bucket of the things and toss a lot
of my bigger boxes.
But if the truth be told, I'm perfectly happy *reading* floppies with
what I have here--once. What I'd like to do is *accurately* archive
what I've got on, say, CD-R or DVD and get rid of the pile of slowly-
decomposing library floppies once and for all. If I needed a floppy
of any sort, then I could simply take some magic box with a CD drive
and a 34- or 50-pin header on it and hook it to whatever system that
normally takes a floppy and be in business, at least for reading.
I really don't care much about *writing* floppies.
I'm experimenting with a Catweasel, recording at least two complete
revolutions of a floppy track in the hope that it will be enough to
recreate anything I have in my archives, should anyone care. So
while the form may change, the information is preserved.
As far as using traditional imaging tools; it's no good. There's too
much that a 765 can't read.
Cheers,
Chuck
2:29 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Chuck Guzis wrote:
But if the truth be told, I'm perfectly happy
*reading* floppies with
what I have here--once. What I'd like to do is *accurately* archive
what I've got on, say, CD-R or DVD and get rid of the pile of slowly-
decomposing library floppies once and for all. If I needed a floppy
of any sort, then I could simply take some magic box with a CD drive
and a 34- or 50-pin header on it and hook it to whatever system that
normally takes a floppy and be in business, at least for reading.
Yep, went through that at the museum because some people were advocating
putting media on the archive shelves - but it's not an idea I'm a fan off; the
stuff's just too prone to damage and decay. Much better to archive it off to
modern storage in such a way that it can be recreated as-and-when needed. The
originals would get kept "just in case", but the plan wouldn't be to
ordinarily touch them once they'd been archived (which would likely mean
they'd get boxed up and put into suitable storage - *not* taking up valuable
space on archive shelving)
I really don't care much about *writing*
floppies.
Now, with museum hat on I do (see above) - but not so much for things in my
own collection. There, getting the data onto modern media *and interpreting it
on modern media* is more useful.
As far as using traditional imaging tools; it's no
good. There's too
much that a 765 can't read.
Yep, judging by Dave's experiences, 765 quirks seem widespread - there's an
awful lot of subtle variations out there. Then on top of that, there's the
stuff that even a "100% pure" 765 won't read anyway.
27 Oct
27 Oct
1:37 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:55:18 -0700
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I can get DSL modems with ARM7 MPUs, wireless, USB and
100BaseT as
well as some sort of serial connection, flash and generous DRAM that
are running Linux for next to nothing at the local recycler (or from
Freecycle). There's just no easy way to dig into the thing to add my
own doodads, otherwise I'd have a bucket of the things and toss a lot
of my bigger boxes.
There is the Alix from PC-Engines. It is basicly a PeeCee SBC
around the
AMD LX800 CPU / system on a chip. Cost is 100..150 EUR. The alix1c has
GPIO pins. It is open, it is documented, you can run any PeeCee OS on
it, WinDOS, Linux, ... It seems a reasonable base for all non-trivial
tasks, that can't be handled by a small microcontroler. E.g. if you need
Ethernet, USB2, ... or lots of RAM.
Speaking about small microcontrolers: I am currently hacking an Atmel
AVR. avr-gcc and avr-libc are great stuff.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
20 Oct
20 Oct
11:06 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
At 11:18 AM 10/20/2007, you wrote:
On 20 Oct 2007 at 12:32, Doc Shipley wrote:
Yes. 200MHz ARM SBCs are available for $149 with 100B-T, USB host,
etc. These are as fast as advertised. : )
Given the options, I figured a Z80 based solution would be
preferable. It would give an excuse for people to support Howard,
and provide a tool useful for stuff other than transferring disks.
A stand alone controller for 3.5, 5.25 and 8" disks would be handy
though... It would be useful for the Altair project I'm working
on. ; ) Only if its USB and enumerates itself as a mass storage
device. None of the serial converter stuff. ; )
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Oh, golly the casemodders have been fooling around with small-
footprint mobos for years.
And there's always PC104, no? Basically ISA--and a variety of
processors (yes, even x86) are available with that bus, as well as
prototyping cards.
An old PC with some ISA slots (free, usually) and a few ISA prototype
boards (about $20 or so the each) would seem to satisfy the basic
need pretty handily, wouldn't it? Easy to program, free tools, etc.
Or am I missing something important here?
"small"? :) 
21 Oct
21 Oct
12:29 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Obviously, the device needs to be a single external device in an
esthetically pleasing case. It must be available in multiple colors.
It needs to sell for no more than $75, with a kit form at $10 (including
all parts and 24/7 handholding support)
It needs to contain 3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9", 5.25" and 8"
drives.
It needs to handle ST506/412 MFM/RLL, ESDI, SCSI, and whatever it was that
1401 used (RADAC?)
It needs to fit in a pocket.
It needs to get at least a month or 10,000 floppy reads from a set of
batteries (single AAA or LR44)
All media needs to go into a single slot, and the drive will identify it.
It needs to have it's own screen and keyboard.
It needs to produce a dead-tree hardcopy log of all data transferred,
including automatically identified format, date of creation, date of
transfer, creator's full name (might need internet access to research that
data), and spell check all document files
Should have motorized next-disk feeder
It needs to operate stand alone
It needs to connect to a user port
It needs to connect to 34 pin/DC37 FDC,
It needs to connect to a parallel ("Centronics") port
It needs to connect to a V.24 port
It needs to connect to a RS232 port
It needs to connect to a ethernet port
It needs to connect to a USB port
It needs to connect to a PCMCIA port
It needs to connect to a CF port
It needs to connect to a SD port
It needs to connect to a SCSI port
It needs to connect to a SASI port
It needs to connect to ISA
It needs to connect to VLB
It needs to connect to PCI
It needs to connect to Apple ][ bus
It needs to connect to TRS80 bus
It needs to connect to Coco bus
It needs to connect to Amiga
It needs to connect to 20ma current loop
It needs to connect with Bell 103, 212, V.90
It needs to read below flux transition
It needs to handle and seamlessly recognize WD/IBM FM/MFM, GCR (Apple,
Commodor, Victor, etc.), Hard sector (N*,H/Z, etc.)
It needs to handle and seamlessly recognize all prior and future disk
formats
It needs to have analog track positioning (think Amlyn) to handle 48TPI,
96TPI, 100TPI, 67.5TPI, 135TPI, spiral formats, etc.
It needs to handle data transfer rates of 0 to 10G (that will obviate the
need for variable spindle speed, and save LOTS of money)
It needs to output at at least 10GB/sec
It needs to be able to automatically repair errors from single bit to
entire tracks
It needs drivers to work as a native peripheral for DOS, Apple-DOS,
TRS-DOS (also DOSPLUS, NEWDOS, LDOS, VTOS, etc.), CP/M, VMS, OS-360
Once all of these requirements are met, should we write drivers to use it
with Windoze?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
1:12 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Fred Cisin wrote:
Obviously, the device needs to be a single external
device in an
esthetically pleasing case. It must be available in multiple colors.
<lots of absolute requirements snipped>
It needs drivers to work as a native peripheral for DOS, Apple-DOS,
TRS-DOS (also DOSPLUS, NEWDOS, LDOS, VTOS, etc.), CP/M, VMS, OS-360
Once all of these requirements are met, should we write drivers to use it
with Windoze?
YOU FORGOT THE LINUX DRIVERS.
:^)
You're not really suggesting that nobody's going to get 100% exactly
what they want, are you?
That's heresy.
Doc
5:16 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
> Obviously, the device needs to be a single
external device in an
> esthetically pleasing case. It must be available in multiple colors.
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Doc Shipley wrote:
<lots of absolute requirements snipped>
(because everybody agrees with all of them)
It needs
drivers to work as a native peripheral for DOS, Apple-DOS,
TRS-DOS (also DOSPLUS, NEWDOS, LDOS, VTOS, etc.), CP/M, VMS, OS-360
YOU FORGOT
THE LINUX DRIVERS. :^) Once all of
these requirements are met, should we write drivers to use it
with Windoze?
You're not really suggesting that nobody's going to get
100% exactly
what they want, are you?
That's heresy.
1:22 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Fred Cisin wrote:
Obviously, the device needs to be a single external
device in an
esthetically pleasing case. It must be available in multiple colors.
...
You missed out power supply specification (including use on three-phase). And
a whole bunch of floppy sizes. Geez, haven't you been paying attention? :-)
5:21 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
> Obviously, the device needs to be a single
external device in an
> esthetically pleasing case. It must be available in multiple colors.
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Jules Richardson wrote:
You missed out power supply specification (including
use on three-phase). And
a whole bunch of floppy sizes. Geez, haven't you been paying attention? :-)
Yes, the batteries need to be rechargeable with BUILT-IN charger that will
function with any voltage (positive or negative), any frequency, and any
number of phases, as well as solar cells sufficient to operate from a
single red LED (on drive front panel).
Aside from 2", 2.5", 2.9" varieties, which additional floppy sizes would
you like to add?
6:05 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On 21 Oct 2007 at 17:21, Fred Cisin wrote:
Yes, the batteries need to be rechargeable with
BUILT-IN charger that will
function with any voltage (positive or negative), any frequency, and any
number of phases, as well as solar cells sufficient to operate from a
single red LED (on drive front panel).
I want mine powered by cold fusion as well as zero-point energy.
Cheers,
Chuck
22 Oct
22 Oct
9:33 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Sunday 21 October 2007 20:21, Fred Cisin wrote:
You might want to throw in mag cards while you're at it...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
>
Obviously, the device needs to be a single external device in an
> esthetically pleasing case. It must be available in multiple colors.
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Jules Richardson wrote:
You missed out power supply specification
(including use on three-phase).
And a whole bunch of floppy sizes. Geez, haven't you been paying
attention? :-)
Yes, the batteries need to be rechargeable with BUILT-IN charger that will
function with any voltage (positive or negative), any frequency, and any
number of phases, as well as solar cells sufficient to operate from a
single red LED (on drive front panel).
Aside from 2", 2.5", 2.9" varieties, which additional floppy sizes would
you like to add?
10:21 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
> Aside from 2", 2.5", 2.9"
varieties, which additional floppy sizes would
> you like to add?
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
You might want to throw in mag cards while you're
at it...
Mag cards of various types.
also flash memory, including Toshiba printer cards, Atari Portfolio memory
cards, etc.
Prob'ly oughta include a versatile ROM reader, . . .
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Monday 22 October 2007 13:21, Fred Cisin wrote:
Might as well throw tape cartridges into the mix, too...
And loose HD platters.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
> Aside
from 2", 2.5", 2.9" varieties, which additional floppy sizes
> would you like to add?
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
You might want to throw in mag cards while
you're at it...
Mag cards of various types.
also flash memory, including Toshiba printer cards, Atari Portfolio memory
cards, etc.
Prob'ly oughta include a versatile ROM reader, . . . 
11:57 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Alexandre Souza wrote:
Only the German version :)
Mag cards of
various types.
also flash memory, including Toshiba printer cards, Atari Portfolio
memory
cards, etc.
Prob'ly oughta include a versatile ROM reader, . . .
Will it work with recording wire?
12:54 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Will it work with recording wire?
Of course!
and MICR,
also 1/4" mag tape, 1/2", 3/4", 1" linear and helical scan, and most
cartridge configurations, so that you can read corvus tapes from Apple,
and transfer that bogus copy of "Debbie Does Dallas" from Quasar
cartridge.
But should punch tape be reel to reel, or Z-fold?
and the punch card hopper(s) are getting in the way of the OCR readers.
Which type of joystick ports should it have?
23 Oct
23 Oct
2:10 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Monday 22 October 2007 15:54, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Alexandre Souza wrote:
The z-fold stuff gets a little cumbersome when the pile gets too big -- it
tends to fall over...
Will it work with recording wire?
Of course!
and MICR,
also 1/4" mag tape, 1/2", 3/4", 1" linear and helical scan, and most
cartridge configurations, so that you can read corvus tapes from Apple,
and transfer that bogus copy of "Debbie Does Dallas" from Quasar
cartridge.
But should punch tape be reel to reel, or Z-fold? and the punch card hopper(s) are getting in the way of
the OCR readers.
Which type of joystick ports should it have?
Both, of course. :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
20 Oct
20 Oct
11:36 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Saturday 20 October 2007 13:00, e.stiebler wrote:
or read from a valuable floppy, I can wait a minute to
transfer it
via V24 which most computers have. (Please don't kill me for this
"most").
I think you mean "RS-232", or more properly, "EIA-232". V.24
comprises
a part of the EIA-232 standard, but is only really a pinout
specification.
Also, if you think that RS-232 is fast enough, you haven't had a real
stack of hundreds of floppies that you needed to sort through and read.
Anyways, if you want to read the floppies in a classic machine that
lacks ethernet, then you probably don't need the external controller to
do it for you. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
12:17 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Saturday 20 October 2007 13:00, e.stiebler wrote:
> or read from a valuable floppy, I can wait a minute to transfer it
> via V24 which most computers have. (Please don't kill me for this
> "most").
Also, if you think that RS-232 is fast enough, you
haven't had a real
stack of hundreds of floppies that you needed to sort through and read.
And all those floppies got beamed to your shelf last night, or are they
sitting there for years ?
;-)
Not buying the speed issue ...
12:32 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
e.stiebler wrote:
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
I've transcribed 8" and 5.25" disks for pay a few times. They do
sort of get beamed to my shelf overnight, and the client usually needs
them yesterday. While I don't mind taking the time it takes to do the
job, I don't want to do it at 19,200 b/s or even 215,000 if I can help it.
Doc
On Saturday 20 October 2007 13:00, e.stiebler
wrote:
> or read from a valuable floppy, I can wait a minute to transfer it
> via V24 which most computers have. (Please don't kill me for this
> "most").
Also, if you think that RS-232 is fast enough,
you haven't had a real
stack of hundreds of floppies that you needed to sort through and read.
And all those floppies got beamed to your shelf last night, or are they
sitting there for years ?
;-)
Not buying the speed issue ...
12:45 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Doc Shipley wrote:
e.stiebler wrote:
Sorry, but if you transfer with 215kbit/s, it is faster than reading
them ;-)
Not buying the speed issue ...
I've transcribed 8" and 5.25" disks for pay a few times. They do sort
of get beamed to my shelf overnight, and the client usually needs them
yesterday. While I don't mind taking the time it takes to do the job, I
don't want to do it at 19,200 b/s or even 215,000 if I can help it.
1:36 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
e.stiebler wrote:
Doc Shipley wrote:
Ack. You're right. Then again, I've never had a serial connection
that would actually *do* that....
Doc
e.stiebler wrote:
Sorry, but if you transfer with 215kbit/s, it is faster than reading
them ;-) Not buying the speed issue ...
I've transcribed 8" and 5.25" disks for pay a few times. They do
sort of get beamed to my shelf overnight, and the client usually needs
them yesterday. While I don't mind taking the time it takes to do the
job, I don't want to do it at 19,200 b/s or even 215,000 if I can help
it.
1:48 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
e.stiebler wrote:
Doc Shipley wrote:
I don't know, I keep thinking in terms of reading the raw data stream from the
floppy drive and processing in software - so that errors might be more
recoverable, and so that completely alien data encoding formats can be
handled. For that sort of task, what with the over-sampling required, I expect
the data sizes are just too big to easily send over a serial link (even if
compressed).
For a straight "PC-type" FDC, and decoding within the gadget hosting the
drives (so that the transfer sizes are small), it's perhaps just about do-able
over an RS-232 link.
cheers
Jules
e.stiebler wrote:
Sorry, but if you transfer with 215kbit/s, it is faster than reading
them ;-) Not buying the speed issue ...
I've transcribed 8" and 5.25" disks for pay a few times. They do
sort of get beamed to my shelf overnight, and the client usually needs
them yesterday. While I don't mind taking the time it takes to do the
job, I don't want to do it at 19,200 b/s or even 215,000 if I can help
it.
3:34 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Saturday 20 October 2007 15:17, e.stiebler wrote:
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Usually, people dump them off on me something like 100+ when they do.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
On Saturday 20 October 2007 13:00, e.stiebler
wrote:
And all those floppies got beamed to your shelf last night, or are
they sitting there for years ?
;-)
Not buying the speed issue ... or read from a valuable floppy, I can wait a
minute to transfer it
via V24 which most computers have. (Please don't kill me for this
"most").
Also, if you think that RS-232 is fast enough, you haven't had a
real stack of hundreds of floppies that you needed to sort through
and read. 
12:20 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Saturday 20 October 2007 13:00, e.stiebler wrote:
I think you're wrong. There is no pinout specification at all in V.24, in
contrary to RS-232 which specifies DB-25 connectors (and nothing else).
And while you can have current loop or voltage levels for your signals
with V.24, RS-232 is voltage levels only. So V.24 can be considered more
versatile than RS-232 in that it really only specifies the function, not
the signalling (that's part of V.28) nor the connectors (like ISO 2110).
So most serial ports (what most of us call "serial port") are V.24 ports,
but only some of them are RS-232. For example: a teletype ASR33 attached
to a PDP-8 will be V.24 but not RS-232.
Christian
or read from a valuable floppy, I can wait a
minute to transfer it
via V24 which most computers have. (Please don't kill me for this
"most").
I think you mean "RS-232", or more properly, "EIA-232". V.24
comprises
a part of the EIA-232 standard, but is only really a pinout
specification.
2:20 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Chuck Guzis wrote:
While a 50MHz processor may seem fast, a 400MHz 32-bit
CPU can
probably run Z80 emulation faster, while hosting Linux.
Certainly quick enough for handling a raw data stream...
I suspect that most people who have a need to handle
floppies
regularly already have the gear in some shape, even if it's a
Catweasel.
Well, I've got PC hardware that'll read/write FM (including at 128b/s), but I
still want something that'll give me raw data to play with in order to handle
the really alien stuff (and allow a bit more interpretation of marginal media).
Catweasel's a bit off-putting because it's an internal board, and something of
a black-box. I expect I'll buy one at some point soon, but I'd still prefer an
external, 'open' device.
A while back, I made a nice crate containing the aforementioned PC hardware
and a bunch of drives - it proved to be a huge pain in the butt, because I
forever had the thing in bits to swap cables and drives around (not to mention
the need to keep cleaning drive heads). A small external box hanging off an
Ethernet, with whatever drives I needed at the time hanging off *that* would
be far more practical.
(Random off-the-wall dreaming: 400MHz is perhaps fast enough to process an
analogue signal direct from a drive head rather than going through the drive's
own electronics)
My real question is "Does this fall under the
"good idea" category or
is there a real demand for this?" And "Is there enough demand for
someone to invest time and money getting a model to a point where he
won't go broke when few purchase it?"
That's the thing. It's the sort of project where someone has to just do it
because *they* need it (because it does something that whatever's currently
out there doesn't offer), and the turning it into a saleable product comes
almost as an afterthought, probably on an as-and-when ordered basis.
Unfortunately my "just do it" time ended up being rather non-existent this
year :-(
cheers
Jules
11:15 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
(Random off-the-wall dreaming: 400MHz is perhaps fast
enough to
process an analogue signal direct from a drive head rather than
going through the drive's own electronics)
I've found the GPIO on the ARM is slow. The best thing to do is
interface to the outside world via the SRAM bus. I have an
application that reads from a FIFO and sends the data over ethernet
at 5.7mbyte/s. I can't recall right this second what the interrupt
time was, but it didn't impress me...
Grant
21 Oct
21 Oct
2:20 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
This may be a silly question, why not interface a 1793 to a
PIC/microcontroller with USB support?
7:41 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
From: geoffr at zipcon.net> > This may be a
silly question, why not interface a 1793 to a> PIC/microcontroller with USB
support?> > Hi
I think this has been answered several times.
Not all formats can be read with standard controller chips.
I have several that fall under that type of problem.
To make it truly useful, it needs to read the timing
of the pulses. It can then use various rules to decode
into data or simply keep it as timed data, depending on
the purpose.
To do this, the tool needs to be able to over sample
with enough resolution. Because of the nature of FM/MFM,
one needs to over sample 6 to 8 times the bit rate.
As David suggested, something like a BlackFin processor
would be good. It is designed to handle USB, runs at 400MHz
instruction rate from its cache and has a clocked serial port that
is able to sample a large amount of data at rates up to
80 MHz clock.
Unlike a current x86 processor, it is designed to have
more determinist execution times and can keep up with
large data transfer rates.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
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7:44 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
From: grant at stockly.com> > > >(Random
off-the-wall dreaming: 400MHz is perhaps fast enough to > >process an analogue
signal direct from a drive head rather than > >going through the drive's own
electronics)> > I've found the GPIO on the ARM is slow. The best thing to do is
> interface to the outside world via the SRAM bus. I have an > application that
reads from a FIFO and sends the data over ethernet > at 5.7mbyte/s. I can't recall
right this second what the interrupt > time was, but it didn't impress me...> Hi
Grant
That is why one should use a DSP like the BlackFin.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
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20 Oct
20 Oct
8:37 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
Some additional thoughts:
- There is just too much the 765 won't do. Even 179x series can't
read some formats. That why I think a system with a fast processor
with direct access to the read (and write) data stream is the
best universal solution. It also must be easily programmable, so
that an oddball format can be handled by "just adding software".
- I agree with Chuck - reading is far more important than writing,
however hand in hand with that, is that ultimately the data read
has to be recoverable somehow.
- Although you could take an old PC and wrap on a custom FDC for
certain formats, I don't think this is a good idea, because of
what I consider is the most important point:
The system has to become an accepted "standard" - even if only
by members of this list. If everyone "does their own thing", there
is no consistancy, and little chance of someone else being able
to recover data. Did we learn nothing from the Don Maslin situation.
You just can't keep valuable backups in the hands of only one
person.
The key thing is that if someone needs a particular disk, they
need to be able to obtain not only the backup data, but enough
information to recreate the disk. This would include:
- A open & well documented hardware design. We must assume that
at some point any boards we make will become unavailable. The
information needs to be presented to allow someone with enough
of a requirement to recreate a compatible system.
- Open and well documented software. If the hardware/software
system allows for custom code to handle oddball formats, then
that code needs to be made available as well. Ideally there
would be some forum to collect and organize this information.
- Documented image file formats. Supporting libraries and tools
available to persons developing for the system, so that
consistance can be maintained.
In many ways, such a development would be a logical extension to my
ImageDisk project - I developed that tool with the explicit goal of
making sure that the data from archived floppies could be extracted
by other means. To that end, I documented and released the Image File
format into the public domain, developed additional tools to manipulate
the images, and have make the source code to those tools and the IMD
program itself freely available.
A good example of the use of this documented format is my recent
efforts to recover files from CDOS disks - after some screwing around,
I found the only way I could reliably recover data from the disks was
to extract it from ImageDisk images - Although I happen to have
authored those tools, I have published enough information that most
any of you could have done it as well if you had the need. Equally
important is the fact that if I should subsqeuently have to recover
files from a different CP/M system - I could most likely do it with
the same or a very similar program.
What I would like to see is a hardware version of ImageDisk - basically
something that can read/write *anything* - and documented well enough
that I can figure out other ways to manipulate the data if I need, and
standardized enough within our communitity that the archived data will
be equally useful to others.
The Catweasel may fill this void - I'm not sure how standardized the
various images files that can be created from it are, or what other
tools are available. As far as I can tell it has suffered from a
somewhat inconsistant and erratic software development. I also don't
really like that it's tied to a PC PCI card, as that locks it into
certain environments unless you want to do a bunch of development
not relating to the actual task at hand. And how open and recreatable
it is I do not know.
I personally like the idea of a "mostly software" system based around
a simple/fast fairly modern engine - I'm currently working on projects
using Blackfin BF536 and BF537, and also a Curris EP9307 (ARM9), either
of which has plenty of muscle for the task - I'm sure other ARM7/ARM9
devices, MIPS etc. would also be contenders. The actual processor used
isn't to my mind all that important, since specific modern processors
usually become unobtanium in short order anyway - more important is
that the code base be portable and well documented.
I don't think an 8-bit control processor interfaced with an off-the-
shelf FDC will have the flexibility, nor the design longevity required
for this type of project.
Dave
--
dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html
19 Oct
19 Oct
9:13 p.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Friday 19 October 2007 17:20, Grant Stockly wrote:
Howard Harte's eZ80SBC is a 50MHz Z80 with plenty
of RAM, an ethernet
interface, 2 SD memory card slots, a USB peripheral port, a USB
host/peripheral port (selectable), and 4 serial ports.
That sure caught my attention... :-)
Interesting stuff, that they're running things that fast... Years ago I'd
have been getting all sorts of interested in something like that. Now? I'm
not so sure.
I wonder if it'd be easy enough to port ZCPR or similar to it?
--
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ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
29 Oct
29 Oct
8:41 a.m.
New subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface
On Oct 20, 2007, at 12:13 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I've done several commercial projects with that chip. It's very
good.
Howard
Harte's eZ80SBC is a 50MHz Z80 with plenty of RAM, an ethernet
interface, 2 SD memory card slots, a USB peripheral port, a USB
host/peripheral port (selectable), and 4 serial ports.
That sure caught my attention... :-)
Interesting stuff, that they're running things that fast...
Years ago I'd
have been getting all sorts of interested in something like that.
Now? I'm
not so sure. I wonder if it'd be easy enough to port ZCPR or
similar to it?
CP/M has been ported to the eZ80 and eZ80Acclaim! family more than
once.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
18 Oct
18 Oct
10:18 p.m.
On Oct 16, 2007, at 1:11 PM, David Griffith wrote:
Is anyone here qualified to design PCI cards? This
morning I got the
bright idea that since PCI floppy interfaces don't seem to exist,
one of
us ought to make one. I'm aware of the Catweasel, but it doesn't
appear
to behave as a bog-standard floppy interface. This wouldn't be a
replacement for the Catweasel, more of a compliment, especially for
machines that lack a floppy interface entirely or can't handle
double-density 5.25" media.
I can source the chips. Who here knows PCI?
I have done one PCI design. I can't call myself "good at it", and
very-high-speed logic isn't my forte', but I can probably handle this
if it turns into a project.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
6264
days inactive
6277
days old
67 comments
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